8 ms·

Pentagon contracting Starlink to provide satellite communications for Ukraine

154 points by mpweiher 3y ago

woooooo 3y ago
I hadn't thought about it before but starlink's model of "large number of cheap low earth orbit satellites" has some great robustness properties against being shot down.
- dmix 3y ago
  Even before Starlink type networks I don't think the feasibility of shooting down satellites at scale ever really made sense. The risks are so high to your own satellites, and would start a dangerous escalation against a near peer that it's basically only for nuclear war type situations. There's also the scale... There's a lot of GPS satellite redudancy, plus the US has about 8 active Keyhole, a bunch of radar ones, etc. NATO as a whole adds way more on top of that. Otherwise Russia only has 2 Persona optical reconnaissance satellites and both are at the end of their life and only have 50cm resolution which is awful compared to commercial stuff you can buy online, let alone the US ones. GLONASS has 23 satellites. China is probably a better example here but again I don't think ASAT is a huge priority, rather than just something you want to be capable of doing.
- George83728 3y ago
  Yes, this is the core idea behind the Space Development Agency's NDSA / PWSA (Proliferated Warfighter Space Architecture.) To this end, the SDA has already contracted SpaceX to launch large dual-use Starlink satellites (called Starshield) specialized for military use.
firesteelrain 3y ago
There are jobs posted on SpaceX’s website for engineers to work on Starshield.
- nerdchum 3y ago
  Starshield?
  - reocha 3y ago
    https://www.space.com/spacex-starshield-satellite-internet-military-starlink https://www.space.com/spacex-starshield-satellite-internet-m...
  - paulsutter 3y ago
    "STARSHIELD - Supporting National Security" "While Starlink is designed for consumer and commercial use, Starshield is designed for government use, with an initial focus on three areas: Earth observation, communications, and hosted payloads (the ability to put a wide variety of instruments on the Starshield satellite bus)" https://www.spacex.com/starshield/ https://www.spacex.com/starshield/ https://www.space.com/spacex-starshield-satellite-internet-military-starlink https://www.space.com/spacex-starshield-satellite-internet-m...
foreverobama 3y ago
[dead]
dotnet00 3y ago
Here's hoping people will finally stop propagating the myth that SpaceX had been intentionally shutting off Starlink in Ukraine to blackmail the government into paying. All other defense contractors haven't been expected to indefinitely provide services for free, so it was always absurd to see people arguing that SpaceX should do it for free.
- aardvarkr 3y ago
  The Ukrainians pay spacex for their internet just like every else in the world. They have an internet bill for each terminal that costs the same as it does in the USA. It wasn’t some charitable donation from Musk. Musk was threatening to pull out of Ukraine because he complained it was costing him money and after he got to ride the initial wave of press releases about saving Ukraine he let his politics got in the way of his judgement.
  - dmix 3y ago
    It's been well reported SpaceX donated a ton of services to Ukraine early in the war for free. It's discussed in the article posted here? Of course Ukrainians will not all be getting it free. SpaceX was mostly just saving face publicly about not directly working with the military and only doing it for civilian purposes. Which makes a lot of sense from a business perspective as they are a global business operating in plenty of countries. Once the DOD rolls up and offers a bunch of money those dynamics can change.
    - partiallypro 3y ago
      The US paid $15M for terminals and services, and paid 3x the cost of what SpaceX sells them for to general consumers. Musk and SpaceX claimed otherwise but the USAID replied with receipts. https://mashable.com/article/elon-musk-spacex-ukraine-starlink-government-funding https://mashable.com/article/elon-musk-spacex-ukraine-starli... https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/8/23016670/starlink-spacex-us-government-terminals-funding-usaid https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/8/23016670/starlink-spacex-u... Any "free" service was always to demo the usefulness of the product to the DoD for them eventually to pay through the nose. Musk got flak for his comments because a) it was a half-truth b) he made it very publicly, c) he started promoting Russian government accounts on For You pages, and d) he started echoing Russian sentiments and/or falsehoods about the war. If he had not done any of that he would have still gotten the money and not looked like a fool. No one expected Starlink to lose money on the deal, and they haven't.
ineedasername 3y ago
This really should have happened shortly after the war began. Then again discussions may have taken place, and the geopolitical consideration were (and are) massively complex. The level of aid that other countries, especially the US, were providing was a delicate balance especially in the beginning. Providing a resource of highly strategic usefulness under the fig leaf of it coming from a private US corp may have been deemed necessary. But at some point it’s unreasonable of the DoD not to foot the bill. After many many $Billions of lethal support the fig leaf has been torn off.
- awill88 3y ago
  Should have could have whatever. I completely understand any reasonable apprehension or general delay when on one side of the table you have Elon Musk who shows such little reverence for the integrity of the union (i.e. pissing his half assed thoughts in all our mouths about work and devotion) and on the other side you have the most powerful military force or bag of money. It probably took a while for trust to be established. I’m glad it’s happening. No notes. Go Ukraine.
  - ineedasername 3y ago
    Yes…? I think I mostly agree with that having been a potential consideration. But that point can coexist with the point I made in my comment as well.
    - awill88 3y ago
      Sorry
InTheArena 3y ago
I think this is also reflective of Starlink moving towards more military and governmental uses as well. Starshield (Starlink + some very very interesting payload options) is going to be a game changer to the point that the Russians, Europeans and Chinese have to respond with their own LEO constellations.
olkyts 3y ago
I’m paying for my service and also covering monthly cost for a terminal that I donated to friends who are in military now fighting. I also know lots of volunteers who do the same. So its strange to read here comments that ukrainians got their service for free.
- inemesitaffia 3y ago
  [dead]
magnat 3y ago
Since SpaceX has no (official / publicly disclosed) ground stations in Ukraine, are they using only laser links between satellites for backhaul to stations in western EU, or does Starlink support terminal-to-terminal connections, outside of publically routable Internet?
- dotnet00 3y ago
  My understanding is that they have stations near the Polish border, which are close enough to cover many parts of Ukraine. For the other parts they are probably using laser links.
exar0815 3y ago
Immediately (2-3 Days) after the massive flash-floods in Germany in 2021, Starlink Dishes started appearing in the Ahr Valley community spaces where the Red Cross and the Bundeswehr were providing relief material. There the victims could communicate because no mobile reception was available anywhere. I still don't know how that was possible when Starlink wasn't even really available at that moment. Source: I saw them myself while eating during breaks.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  Could have just been a beta testing arrangement, there were a couple of cases of disaster hit countries arranging with SpaceX back then to have any high bandwidth communications at all, even if not necessarily as reliable as more mature iterations.
agnosticmantis 3y ago
My sample size is limited (Thiel, Musk, Bezos, etc.), but I’ve noticed the pattern where successful businessmen (often benefiting from public investments and government subsidies) become more libertarian over time, and strangely also tend to become defense/government contractors. Is this an irony or hypocrisy? Or maybe they’re trying to make a point (as in, the best way to get a bug fixed is to exploit it.) Or maybe it’s just easier to have one giant customer than a billion tiny ones? Genuinely curious about this…
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  it seems like an inevitable step along the quest for power once you already have billions and being able to buy all the things loses its challenge
- shapefrog 3y ago
  They are pulling up the drawbridge behind them. Get rich by being a western oligarch - then gerrymander the system so that you have no competition.
timcavel 3y ago
[dead]

154 points by mpweiher 3y ago

I hadn't thought about it before but starlink's model of "large number of cheap low earth orbit satellites" has some great robustness properties against being shot down.

dmix 3y ago
Even before Starlink type networks I don't think the feasibility of shooting down satellites at scale ever really made sense. The risks are so high to your own satellites, and would start a dangerous escalation against a near peer that it's basically only for nuclear war type situations. There's also the scale... There's a lot of GPS satellite redudancy, plus the US has about 8 active Keyhole, a bunch of radar ones, etc. NATO as a whole adds way more on top of that. Otherwise Russia only has 2 Persona optical reconnaissance satellites and both are at the end of their life and only have 50cm resolution which is awful compared to commercial stuff you can buy online, let alone the US ones. GLONASS has 23 satellites. China is probably a better example here but again I don't think ASAT is a huge priority, rather than just something you want to be capable of doing.
George83728 3y ago
Yes, this is the core idea behind the Space Development Agency's NDSA / PWSA (Proliferated Warfighter Space Architecture.) To this end, the SDA has already contracted SpaceX to launch large dual-use Starlink satellites (called Starshield) specialized for military use.

firesteelrain 3y ago

There are jobs posted on SpaceX’s website for engineers to work on Starshield.

nerdchum 3y ago
Starshield?
- reocha 3y ago
  https://www.space.com/spacex-starshield-satellite-internet-military-starlink https://www.space.com/spacex-starshield-satellite-internet-m...
- paulsutter 3y ago
  "STARSHIELD - Supporting National Security" "While Starlink is designed for consumer and commercial use, Starshield is designed for government use, with an initial focus on three areas: Earth observation, communications, and hosted payloads (the ability to put a wide variety of instruments on the Starshield satellite bus)" https://www.spacex.com/starshield/ https://www.spacex.com/starshield/ https://www.space.com/spacex-starshield-satellite-internet-military-starlink https://www.space.com/spacex-starshield-satellite-internet-m...

foreverobama 3y ago

[dead]

dotnet00 3y ago

Here's hoping people will finally stop propagating the myth that SpaceX had been intentionally shutting off Starlink in Ukraine to blackmail the government into paying. All other defense contractors haven't been expected to indefinitely provide services for free, so it was always absurd to see people arguing that SpaceX should do it for free.

aardvarkr 3y ago
The Ukrainians pay spacex for their internet just like every else in the world. They have an internet bill for each terminal that costs the same as it does in the USA. It wasn’t some charitable donation from Musk. Musk was threatening to pull out of Ukraine because he complained it was costing him money and after he got to ride the initial wave of press releases about saving Ukraine he let his politics got in the way of his judgement.
- dmix 3y ago
  It's been well reported SpaceX donated a ton of services to Ukraine early in the war for free. It's discussed in the article posted here? Of course Ukrainians will not all be getting it free. SpaceX was mostly just saving face publicly about not directly working with the military and only doing it for civilian purposes. Which makes a lot of sense from a business perspective as they are a global business operating in plenty of countries. Once the DOD rolls up and offers a bunch of money those dynamics can change.
  - partiallypro 3y ago
    The US paid $15M for terminals and services, and paid 3x the cost of what SpaceX sells them for to general consumers. Musk and SpaceX claimed otherwise but the USAID replied with receipts. https://mashable.com/article/elon-musk-spacex-ukraine-starlink-government-funding https://mashable.com/article/elon-musk-spacex-ukraine-starli... https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/8/23016670/starlink-spacex-us-government-terminals-funding-usaid https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/8/23016670/starlink-spacex-u... Any "free" service was always to demo the usefulness of the product to the DoD for them eventually to pay through the nose. Musk got flak for his comments because a) it was a half-truth b) he made it very publicly, c) he started promoting Russian government accounts on For You pages, and d) he started echoing Russian sentiments and/or falsehoods about the war. If he had not done any of that he would have still gotten the money and not looked like a fool. No one expected Starlink to lose money on the deal, and they haven't.

ineedasername 3y ago

This really should have happened shortly after the war began. Then again discussions may have taken place, and the geopolitical consideration were (and are) massively complex. The level of aid that other countries, especially the US, were providing was a delicate balance especially in the beginning. Providing a resource of highly strategic usefulness under the fig leaf of it coming from a private US corp may have been deemed necessary. But at some point it’s unreasonable of the DoD not to foot the bill. After many many $Billions of lethal support the fig leaf has been torn off.

awill88 3y ago
Should have could have whatever. I completely understand any reasonable apprehension or general delay when on one side of the table you have Elon Musk who shows such little reverence for the integrity of the union (i.e. pissing his half assed thoughts in all our mouths about work and devotion) and on the other side you have the most powerful military force or bag of money. It probably took a while for trust to be established. I’m glad it’s happening. No notes. Go Ukraine.
- ineedasername 3y ago
  Yes…? I think I mostly agree with that having been a potential consideration. But that point can coexist with the point I made in my comment as well.
  - awill88 3y ago
    Sorry

InTheArena 3y ago

I think this is also reflective of Starlink moving towards more military and governmental uses as well. Starshield (Starlink + some very very interesting payload options) is going to be a game changer to the point that the Russians, Europeans and Chinese have to respond with their own LEO constellations.

olkyts 3y ago

I’m paying for my service and also covering monthly cost for a terminal that I donated to friends who are in military now fighting. I also know lots of volunteers who do the same. So its strange to read here comments that ukrainians got their service for free.

inemesitaffia 3y ago
[dead]

magnat 3y ago

Since SpaceX has no (official / publicly disclosed) ground stations in Ukraine, are they using only laser links between satellites for backhaul to stations in western EU, or does Starlink support terminal-to-terminal connections, outside of publically routable Internet?

dotnet00 3y ago
My understanding is that they have stations near the Polish border, which are close enough to cover many parts of Ukraine. For the other parts they are probably using laser links.

exar0815 3y ago

Immediately (2-3 Days) after the massive flash-floods in Germany in 2021, Starlink Dishes started appearing in the Ahr Valley community spaces where the Red Cross and the Bundeswehr were providing relief material. There the victims could communicate because no mobile reception was available anywhere. I still don't know how that was possible when Starlink wasn't even really available at that moment. Source: I saw them myself while eating during breaks.

dotnet00 3y ago
Could have just been a beta testing arrangement, there were a couple of cases of disaster hit countries arranging with SpaceX back then to have any high bandwidth communications at all, even if not necessarily as reliable as more mature iterations.

agnosticmantis 3y ago

My sample size is limited (Thiel, Musk, Bezos, etc.), but I’ve noticed the pattern where successful businessmen (often benefiting from public investments and government subsidies) become more libertarian over time, and strangely also tend to become defense/government contractors. Is this an irony or hypocrisy? Or maybe they’re trying to make a point (as in, the best way to get a bug fixed is to exploit it.) Or maybe it’s just easier to have one giant customer than a billion tiny ones? Genuinely curious about this…

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
it seems like an inevitable step along the quest for power once you already have billions and being able to buy all the things loses its challenge
shapefrog 3y ago
They are pulling up the drawbridge behind them. Get rich by being a western oligarch - then gerrymander the system so that you have no competition.

timcavel 3y ago

[dead]