21 ms·

India cuts periodic table and evolution from school textbooks

287 points by abhas9 3y ago

jmclnx 3y ago
Is education free in India ? I believe it is. With that said, seems India is mirroring the US in making sure only the wealthy will get a good education (private schools). It is a dangerous game doing that, eventually the mass will rise up once they realize their children have no hope in succeeding.
- benced 3y ago
  It is far more common in India to go to a private school. As a rule of thumb, if you know an educated Indian, they went to private school. https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/10/india-the-largest-experiment-in-private-schooling-in-history.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/10/in... This makes this decision both more and less outrageous. On one level, it had less effect than a similar decision than the US. On the other, it helps cripple the poor in India (who are actually poor, not American poor).
  - schoubey 3y ago
    Both public and private schools in India use NCERT books and have the same examinations. Private schools only ensure things are taught better, what is taught is still the same.
    - joshuaissac 3y ago
      In my experience, government schools are far more likely to be state government schools than central government schools, and so they are more likely use the local state board's curriculum instead those of the CBSE or ICSE.
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        Depends on the State. For example in Delhi, a number of Govt of Delhi operated schools will use CBSE curriculum as well.
  - Dig1t 3y ago
    That goes against what I heard from my Indian friends. I was told that public schools are actually more prestigious than private schools, they are more rigorous apparently?
    - joshuaissac 3y ago
      > public schools are actually more prestigious than private schools They are, but they are still private schools, not government schools. They are based in British public schools, where the word 'public' refers to the fact that students of any religion could historically be admitted to them, not that they are state-owned or state-controlled.
    - mhink 3y ago
      According to a commenter up-thread, what Americans call "public schools" are referred to as "government schools", and what Americans call "private schools" are referred to as "public schools". Probably a carryover in terminology from Britain, where extremely prestigious schools like Eton are called "public schools" for historical reasons.
      - desas 3y ago
        > where extremely prestigious schools like Eton are called "public schools" for historical reasons. In the UK public and private referred to who could access the schools (assuming they had the money), whereas in the US they refer to how the schools are funded. Now the UK has a kludge. The former private schools don't really exist, they've mainly changed into independent fee-paying public schools not controlled or funded by the state. In the meantime (i.e. centuries ago), the state started funding schools, including religiously selective schools and has been increasingly giving more independence to the schools it funds.
        qwytw 3y ago
        What would be an example of a non public private school (even in the past?). I assumed the terms are basically synonymous in the UK?
- mtoner23 3y ago
  Its free but there aren't enough schools and many kids dont attend. The trend in the us is not making sure only the wealthy get a good education. more people in the us than ever go to college and we are smarter and more educated than ever before.
- Arnavion 3y ago
  (I'm Indian but left India ~15 years ago, so my info may be out of date.) It's free in government schools, what Americans would call public schools. Middle and upper class kids usually go to public schools, what Americans would call private schools, which have fees and may use non-NCERT textbooks too. I believe that for a school to be ratified it is only required that it teach at least what is mandated by the relevant education board (generally the national level one, CBSE), so it would be okay for a ratified school to use a private textbook that teaches the NCERT syllabus + periodic table + evolution. Also college coaching classes (for IIT-JEE etc) may continue to cover these topics anyway. Even during my time they were covering topics that had been cut from the government-mandated curriculum, so it wouldn't be surprising.
WhatsName 3y ago
Cutting and defunding education seems such a prevalent global trend, I find it hard to believe there is no hidden agenda. At least here it seems to happen with the clear political agenda. Who needs evolution and democracy anyways other than those inconvenient to the indian government.
- deleted 3y ago
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- albatross13 3y ago
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- hayst4ck 3y ago
  It's a question of where your core axioms come from. The core axiom from which a person builds a belief system can be that contradictions are wrong or that authority (the bible/priest/parent) is right. This is why conservatives frequently fail to respond to pointing out their contradictions. Their core axiom is one of authority, contradictions have little bearing on their analysis of what is true or not. New information cannot invalidate their already known truth, so what they already "know" twists and molds the new information, rather than their current understanding adapting to the new information. This makes (real) education directly at odds with conservatism. Inquiry is an anathema to dogma. Conservatism is happy to teach things that are useful which is why you'll hear conservatives extol the virtues of technical education, but doesn't want to teach methods of inquiry or analysis or questioning ones self and ones assumptions, which is why you'll hear conservatism denigrate liberal arts or frequently secular education. One confusing factor for American conservatives is that the American tradition that is being conserved is a somewhat liberal tradition. So conservatives attach themselves to many (correct) liberal values, but fail to see that they believe those values as the result of their tradition (meaning as a result of authority), and not as the result of a process of rational inquiry. Put more succinctly: an educated population is a threat to authority and therefore conservatism.
  - fluoridation 3y ago
    I'm not sure veneration of authority is a central aspect of conservatism. As I understand it, conservatism is about returning to a previous state of affairs that is perceived as favorable compared to the present, or about maintaining the status quo. It seems to me that two people who were raised in different contexts could be considered conservative with respect to their own contexts, while at the same time one being an authoritarian and the other being a libertarian.
schoubey 3y ago
"chapters on democracy and diversity; political parties; and challenges to democracy have been scrapped" this is even more dangerous.
alephnerd 3y ago
It's only affecting 10th grade CBSE (NCERT), not ICSE or state board* exams, let alone competitive board exams like the JEE (Engineering) or NEET (Medicine). It's still being taught in the NCERT books as well, but now in 12th grade instead of 10th grade. The scarier thing should be the rewriting of the history section of CBSE. * board is Indian English for curriculum Also, on the hierarchy of Indian board exams: Top - ICSE Medium - some State Boards Low - CBSE, some state boards Board exams are orthogonal to college entrance exams in India. For example, IIT and Engineering admissions are gated by the JEE, so students oftentimes bunk 10th-12th grade to study the JEE and try to get a D average in the Board exam (because there's only so much you can study). Board exams do have value though for most average colleges though and some top tier non-Eng ones (eg. If I wanted to study Law at St Stephen's College, University of Delhi or Business at Shri Ram College of Commerce, University of Delhi - both programs that feed into the political and business elite of India). The Indian system is confusing and weird and there is some reform within it to become much more similar to the American system, but that's a work in progress.
- joshuaissac 3y ago
  > board is Indian English for curriculum This sense of the word 'board' as in 'examination board' also exists in British English. The US also has the 'College Board' which sets some national exams.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Yep. But we call 'em "AP tests", "PSATs", or "SATs". The word "Exam" isn't commonly used in American English.
    - whinenot 3y ago
      >"Exam" isn't commonly used in American English. Huh? Is this a homeschool trend? Final exams are the cornerstone of US secondary and tertiary education.
      - 3y ago
james-redwood 3y ago
Reading the source that Nature cites, it seems like the content has been made temporarily unexaminable ‘in light of COVID’, rather than the section actually getting cut from the textbook. https://ncert.nic.in/rationalised-content.php https://ncert.nic.in/rationalised-content.php Could any Indian with a new physical textbook perhaps confirm? It’s a rather concerning policy. The headline also seems awfully clickbaity. What the policy seems to have done is shifted basic evolution down to younger grades and moved the more advanced concepts to more senior grades. However, this shifts more advanced concepts up to grades in which science as a subject is not compulsory. Regressive as this is, this isn’t what the headline suggests.
- deleted 3y ago
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- alephnerd 3y ago
  Here's the new textbook - https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?jesc1=0-13 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?jesc1=0-13 It still teaches Mendelian genetics (chpt 8), but then entire book seems severely dumbed down compared to older NCERT textbooks I've read before when bored on India trips. It might be because now you can't graduate high school in the 10th grade anymore in India - now you can only graduate at the 12th grade or transfer to a vocational college for 11th and 12th.
known 3y ago
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blagie 3y ago
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- epups 3y ago
  Who is removing the option to teach anything at home?
  - throwaway5371 3y ago
    home schooling is practically illegal in most of western europe and school is taking more and more of the child's life
    - manuelabeledo 3y ago
      You can still teach your kid at home. I for one am glad that Europe expects and enforced certain education standards.
      - throwaway5371 3y ago
        it is education standard if you are on the right side of it, sometimes you see it as the formation of the new soviet man if you are not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man
        manuelabeledo 3y ago
        I’m sure homeschooled kids aren’t indoctrinated, at all.
        throwaway5371 3y ago
        of course they are, its a choice do you let the state do that or the family
- nullindividual 3y ago
screye 3y ago
This makes no sense to me. This highly unlikely to be a political move. Science education is not political in India. Evolution, abortion, chemistry are not debated at all. This is more likely for the reasons to be innocuous. > In explaining its changes, NCERT states on its website that it considered whether content overlapped with similar content covered elsewhere, the difficulty of the content, and whether the content was irrelevant. It also aims to provide opportunities for experiential learning and creativity. > NCERT announced the cuts last year, saying that they would ease pressures on students studying online during the COVID-19 pandemic. Amitabh Joshi, an evolutionary biologist at Jawaharlal Nehru Centre for Advanced Scientific Research in Bengaluru, India, says that science teachers and researchers expected that the content would be reinstated once students returned to classrooms. Instead, the NCERT shocked everyone by printing textbooks for the new academic year with a statement that the changes will remain for the next two academic years, in line with India’s revised education policy approved by government in July 2020. Sounds more like students have continued lagging behind after coming back from Covid, than anything malicious. I have literally never heard of national politicians in India being anti-science. I might be wrong, but I would genuinely like to see 1st source statements from the board indicating that these changes are religiously motivated.
- lannisterstark 3y ago
  "Science education is not political in India" You've not seen the back cover of textbooks that says X or Y is only possible because of the generosity of the "Insert current Chief Minister of State?"
- neilk 3y ago
  I have no idea exactly how much this particular curriculum change is influenced by religion. But your assertion that science is depoliticized in India is very wrong. In 2018, the education minister declared Darwin was wrong. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/23/indian-education-minister-dismisses-theory-of-evolution-satyapal-singh https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/23/indian-educati... This is just one of many such troubling incidents, including apparent indifference to the murder of pro-rationalism academics. Anecdotally, if you have people from India in your life, this is inescapable. Constant barrage of forwards on WhatsApp of Hindu supremacy, which necessarily have to flip history upside down. The story goes that Hindus had nuclear energy 10,000 years ago, but filthy foreigners corrupted Mother India.
mdev 3y ago
This is not what the title makes it to seem, most of India believes science and education leads to success in life and for the country. If anything businesses will now make more money by teaching periodic tables and evolution in "coaching classes"
givemeethekeys 3y ago
I'm calling shenanigans. There are many education systems in India. There's a central one, but each state has its own. Indians at every economic level (except maybe the very top) value STEM education above everything else. I wish we'd learn to dial back the hysteria. I wish people weren't so damn trigger happy.
- spaceman_2020 3y ago
  They don’t value STEM education. They value they jobs and prestige STEM education can get them. Remove the ability to get well paying engineering/medicine jobs from the equation and they’ll treat STEM education with the same disdain they have for commerce, or worse, humanities. There is very little real appreciation of education. Only its byproducts, namely, jobs.
  - givemeethekeys 3y ago
    > They don’t value STEM education. They value they jobs and prestige STEM education can get them. Second sentence disagrees with the first sentence.
    - notRobot 3y ago
      You don't have to like cows to like milk.
      - givemeethekeys 3y ago
        You don't have to like something to value it.
        deleted 3y ago
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    - renewiltord 3y ago
      I prompted GPT-4 on ChatGPT with the following > I read an internet comment that said "They don’t value STEM education. They value they jobs and prestige STEM education can get them." The second sentence seems to contradict the first. Can you explain if it does? And it gave quite a good explanation. If you'd like I can share the chat, but perhaps you'd like to give it a shot yourself?
fractalb 3y ago
They actually cut the syllabus for students below class X. It's not a ban or anything. And it's only NCERT's (central board of education) syllabus. Each state has its own education board and syllabus. The headline is not honest.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
  if each state can just ignore the NCERT curriculum, and if the NCERT curriculum itself is educationally insufficient (not teaching evolution or the periodic table in a school curriculum makes that curriculum a failure), then what is the point of the NCERT curriculum?
  - SJetKaran 3y ago
    So, India has different systems of curriculum, at national level CBSE/NCERT and ICSE, and many states have their own. Each school individually is affiliated to one of the curriculums.
    - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
      right, and we are discussing the curriculum at the national level, which is educationally insufficient why have an educationally insufficient NCERT curriculum?
  - occamschainsaw 3y ago
    It is the common central/federal baseline. It is accepted as a high school credential everywhere in India (other boards are accepted in general too, but NCERT has to be accepted). This insufficiency with weird omission for evolution and periodic table seems to be due to covid after effects or general incompetence rather than malice. I studied in 3 different boards at different points of schooling and the rule of thumb was state board, NCERT/CBSE and ICSE in increasing order of “rigor”. The last two years of high school are spent in preparing for competitive entrance exams anyways, whose syllabus usually is a superset of the school syllabus in your chosen field (engineering, medicine, sciences etc.)
donatj 3y ago
They're not learning about on the periodic table prior to age 16? You've got to be joking, That's like early elementary school stuff.
villgax 3y ago
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keithxm23 3y ago
Title is clickbait
spaceman_2020 3y ago
India has been getting high on its own supply for a few years now. The narrative is that all knowledge originated in ancient Indian texts and was stolen by the west. Even the ISRO chief made a comment in this vein a few days back. Cultures that keep looking at imagined past glories, imo, are destined to become static and falter.
- local_crmdgeon 3y ago
  >Cultures that keep looking at imagined past glories, imo, are destined to become static and falter. If education was just chanting this half the day the world would be better off. I had a Hindu nationalist recently berate me about how the "US had lost the Space Race, ISRO was the clear winner." I mentioned the US landed on the Moon first, and he said "would rather have not landed on the Moon than live in a country with a large number of Black people" (put less pleasantly). Weird guy! Weird political movement!
  - jcranmer 3y ago
    > I had a Hindu nationalist recently berate me about how the "US had lost the Space Race, ISRO was the clear winner." ... did they give any examples of ISRO space accomplishments that predate US or Soviet accomplishment?
    - local_crmdgeon 3y ago
      No, he just pivoted to talking about how America is just a bunch of "Black ghettos" and then I blocked him.
    - ff2400t 3y ago
      One important thing to know about people like these is that they don't have a rational argument They have a Believe and they like to shout it out to the world.
      - jcranmer 3y ago
        Oh, I'm absolutely aware of that, I was just curious if there was literally anything they could point to that could, if viewed at through significantly rose-colored lenses, be seen as support for their statement. Like maybe (given my previous experience with Hindu nationalists) some passage in the Vedas that was interpreted to mean ancient Hindus were actually a spacefaring race or something.
vondur 3y ago
Why would you cut the periodic table from curriculum? I'm a chem major and have never heard of such a thing before.
- Jeff_Brown 3y ago
  The closest I see the article coming to explaining the changes are in this passage: "... considered whether content overlapped with similar content covered elsewhere, the difficulty of the content, and whether the content was irrelevant ... It also aims to provide opportunities for experiential learning and creativity." i.e. to reduce redundancy, make room for something else in the curriculum, or to improve grade point averages. Another possibility not mentioned would be to provide ideological cover. Delete some things unrelated to ideology, and you have some degree of plausible deniability re. accusations of dogma. But I find the earlier rationales more plausible. Particularly if they come from people who do not themselves understand the importance of the concepts they are cutting.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  It does not actually say that it is taken out of the curriculum. It says that it is taken out from textbooks in a certain year. That means nothing in the context of Indian education considering how accessible a periodic table is.
SpaceManNabs 3y ago
Kinda wild to see comments on here saying that India's slide into religious fascism isn't a big deal. "We/Indians don't politicize science" "There are many education authorities" I think this is only affecting a particular grade, but we already have seen the slow rollout of other efforts. You can't normalize politicians saying stuff like "our ancient civilization had nuclear energy". edit: surprised that I wasn't immediately downvoted. A year ago, talking about this was instant downvotes, on any platform. I guess enough people have noticed this behavior.
- ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
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  - SpaceManNabs 3y ago
    Completely irrelevant. I find this whataboutism as a very common pushback when I comment on my sadness on the direction of India. I have no connection, but I have empathy for my friends that feel like they lost a home.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > This, my dear friends, is Abrahamic privilege at work I mean, yes. There are idiots in the world, and they're not limited to one religion. We generally decry putting them in positions of power, particularly over eduction.
- SAS_SBS 3y ago
  Most Indians are in fact happy about that slide, given that 80%+ of the country are Hindus. What a shame!
  - mavelikara 3y ago
    It is presumptuous to suggest that every Hindu is happy with the slide to Hindutva.
    - 3y ago
toddm 3y ago
India is the new Texas.
vinay_ys 3y ago
I don't think this is political or some other non-educational agenda driven. No politician in India has ever thought of education curriculum as part of their vote bank political thinking nor will they take the effort needed go interfere in the academic processes that result in these textbooks. Anyway, it really doesn't matter if some of these topics are removed from these specific textbooks because most science students who are aspiring to go for engineering or medical undergrad college will study those topics as part of preparations for college entrance exams. Stuff like evolution, environmental pollution and periodic tables will be studied by even those who are applying for Indian civil service exams. Also, there is no danger of creationism taking hold in India just because evolution is not taught in high school. Also, religious beliefs in India are very diverse and rich and highly complicated that nobody who is inclined to learn sciences will confuse religious beliefs and mythological stories with practical sciences. Edit: btw, all textbooks are available for free download here: https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php You can evaluate for yourself and make your own mind. I for one envy students of today with all the rich multimedia material at their fingertips especially to learn formal and natural sciences.
standardUser 3y ago
I found it really beneficial to be exposed to these concepts at a very young age, giving me a lot of exposure over many years and helping inform my overall view of science and the world as I grew up. I had a particularly keen interest in evolution starting with a visit to the Museum of Natural History in NYC at age 6! My mother bought my friend and I pamphlets on evolution (my mother had to clear it with his parents before giving it to him) and it became on ongoing fascination for me for many years. I know little-to-nothing about elementary education in India, but I always appreciated the broad-based approach to education I experienced in the US, with various concept introduced very early, and then re-introduced periodically over the years. If anything, I would support throwing more knowledge at young students, knowing that they'll only absorb a fraction of it. Though I suppose that approach is anathema to standardized testing.
Bekknqv 3y ago
Teachers will still be teaching (and this is probably what NCERT expects) these basic topics, because teaching the topics that remain won't be easy without them. My sibling was in grade 10 when COVID hit, some topics that had been removed from the final exam were still taught (although in a somewhat brief manner, considering this was online schooling). Indian politicians say a lot of dumb and pseudo-scientific garbage, but a few subpar comments here are wildly quoting those to act as if they're rewriting all of science in India. They've purely made omissions, no additions/revisions. And evolution is still a chapter in grade 12 biology books- https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 You can also find the periodic table in grade 9 science textbooks (page 6)- https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6
- Bekknqv 3y ago
  EDIT: Made a very silly mistake (in my defence, it was late at night). The FULL periodic table is there in grade 11, not 9. Grade 9 only introduces you to the first 18 elements on the table.
p0w3n3d 3y ago
Bloodywood - Gaddar
dexzod 3y ago
I scanned the whole article but could not find any mention of the reason behind this move. I mean evolution may be violating some Hindu teaching but what is the problem with periodic table of elements?
- Bekknqv 3y ago
  They're trying to reduce the burden on students. Don't exactly know if evolution violates some Hindu teachings, but a statement was released last month stating that evolution was removed from the grade 10 book because it's present in the grade 12 book- https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bhubaneswar/darwins-theory-is-in-class-12-books-minister/articleshow/99798814.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bhubaneswar/darwins... Similarly, I'm guessing the periodic table was removed from the grade 10 book because it's already present in the grade 9 book. IMO they probably should've kept a page or two about evolution though, because after grade 10, students are free to pick their own courses (which doesn't have to be biology), but this is probably debatable. I'm all for reducing the burden though. This Nature article is pretty poorly written (by Nature's standards) and lowkey sounds like the drivel I'd expect from Indian media.
  - duskwuff 3y ago
    > Similarly, I'm guessing the periodic table was removed from the grade 10 book because it's already present in the grade 9 book. That still doesn't make sense. The periodic table doesn't stop being relevant in 10th grade just because it was introduced in 9th grade.
    - Bekknqv 3y ago
      Right, but the goal here is to reduce the burden by removing things that are already present elsewhere. You could probably make the same argument for a bunch of other 9th grade topics. Regardless, teachers won't just pretend like the periodic table doesn't exist though, they'll talk about it in 10th grade too, because it ties into a few other chapters, but the key difference is that the students won't be graded on it in their final exams.
  - 3y ago
bluepod4 3y ago
I’m not too familiar with Indian education systems. Does anyone have an idea if and how this would affect future JEE exams? I’m specifically referring to the removal of the periodic table for students under 16 years old. Also, maybe I missed it, but what’s the point of _removing_ the chapters instead of just not _teaching_ them?
- Bekknqv 3y ago
  The periodic table is actually already present in the 9th grade textbook. As it stands, they haven't changed the JEE syllabus, so you do have to learn it either way. Probably just to save paper and make lighter books? Not sure. Back in my day, they'd just ask us to ignore chapters that weren't in the syllabus.
ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago
Now just imagine the next generation of Java developers who will come out of the country.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
Speaking of the periodic table. I learned during Covid that my fourth grader could memorize the entire thing when I practiced the song with her :)
- malikNF 3y ago
  Back home we had a bit of a vulgar song for the periodic table, as kids who were forced to memorize this, the song was much more entertaining and memorable.
debacle 3y ago
What a deceptive headline. They cut these things from general science courses (what Americans would consider K-8), but they are still part of "high school" biology.
waterheater 3y ago
Indians predominantly subscribe to the Hindu belief system, which is quite foreign from the Western ideologies imposed on them by the British. Consider the concepts of atman (essentially, meaning Self) and avatars (essentially, deities coming down to earth to take on human form). Darwinian evolution acts as a simplified, analogous representation of the grander evolution of Self as told in Hindu mythology. According to Hinduism, atman evolves by inhabiting more complete forms of physical vessel, passing from fish to amphibian to cow to human to Buddha. Additionally, Hindu belief systems admit the existence of reincarnative process, which Western belief systems, including our most fundamental prevailing scientific axiom, do not. Darwinian evolution and an overarching reincarnative process cannot coexist because the former requires that the physical world is the totality of reality while the latter requires that the physical world is a small but important portion of reality. Humans are either the descendants of monkeys via a completely-observable evolutionary process, or forces beyond those which are Seen shape our development. Western arrogance dismisses these ideas as invalid at face value. A Westerner should honestly seek to understand the Hindu belief system and suss out where it is accurate and inaccurate without resorting to pathos argumentation.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Darwinian evolution and an overarching reincarnative process cannot coexist because the former requires that the physical world is the totality of reality What? No it doesn't. In fact, evolution comports rather nicely with reincarnation–there is a finite number of souls reincarnating through ever-evolving bodies, working together across time to press life as a whole forward. > Humans are either the descendants of monkeys via a completely-observable evolutionary process Humans are not descendants of monkeys. That is not, and has never been science. Humans and monkey share a common ancestor, as do all mammals.
- qwytw 3y ago
  > without resorting to pathos argumentation Unless there is observable evidence for these claims it might be the complete inverse of that? > from the Western ideologies imposed on them by the British. So all the people who actually have embraced scientific thought (logical reasoning in general) only did so because the British forced? Seems like a great bunch.. these British, just don't tell this to the French or Germans.
wly_cdgr 3y ago
Prepping the serfs for war with China
- deleted 3y ago
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- getcrunk 3y ago
  Ding ding ding. India has always been very education and tech forward. Hopefully this is a not the beginning of a trend, but the increased nationalism and authoritarianism (crypto, vpn ban) would fit very well with a dumbed down populace.
killjoywashere 3y ago
The only way I can see this making rational sense is if the senior leaders in the government are in possession of secret, solid evidence that population growth is about to become lethal in the extreme, and this is a radical move by the government to precipitate their own depopulation through mass starvation. But I seriously doubt that's the case and the mechanism of action seems weak.
kepler1 3y ago
Does anyone else get the feeling that the "great filter" to our continued global civilization advance is how you manage, after reaching a certain size, the millions of competing motivations and concerns that branch out and cause confusion when there are no longer just a few clear problems to solve?
amriksohata 3y ago
There is a lot of pressure by Churches especially in the South of India not to teach evolution. And from other religions.
kazinator 3y ago
Right; we wouldn't want the next generation of one of the most populous nations, that is at a more imminent and grave risk from global warming than most others, to have a science background? It's like some secret plot perpetrated by an external enemy who aims to eradicate the nation.
vivegi 3y ago
This news seems misleading. A charitable reading of the article would assign it a category of "clickbait". The periodic table and evolution are still part of high school curriculum. Here are the links to the class XI textbook for Chemistry (the so called rationalized text books for 2023-24). Chemistry Part I, Unit 3, Classification of Elements and Periodicity in Properties. (Link to PDF) https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 in pg 77, Mendeleev's original periodic table in pg 79, Long form of the periodic table (modern periodic table) Here is the link for class XII textbook for Biology. Biology, Chapter 6, Evolution. (link to PDF) https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 6.1 Origin of Life 6.2 Evolution of Life Forms - A Theory 6.3 What are the Evidences for Evolution? 6.4 What is Adaptive Radiation? 6.5 Biological Evolution 6.6 Mechanism of Evolution 6.7 Hardy - Weinberg Principle 6.8 A Brief Account of Evolution 6.9 Origin and Evolution of Man The Nature article's summary below the headline states > Nature has learnt that the periodic table, as well as evolution, won’t be taught to under-16s as they start the new school year. Yeah, duh! It is taught in Class XI and XII in Chemistry and Biology, just not in Class IX or X as it used to be done previously. Weaving this as some major conspiracy is dishonest and ridiculous. For the benefit of US readers: Class IX is freshman high school year, Class X is sophomore year, Class XI is junior year, Class XII is senior year.
msravi 3y ago
This is false: https://twitter.com/deepakshenoy/status/1664098996242006017?s=20 https://twitter.com/deepakshenoy/status/1664098996242006017?...
shreyshnaccount 3y ago
India is a country of contradictions. My mom was a bio teacher, and obviously believes in the concept of evolution. But she's also spiritual and religious, and believes in creationist theories. She is somehow able to juxtapose both into creating a meaningful "story". Id encourage non-Indians to read up about India to have the cultural context we grow up in https://profcohen.net/reli113/uploads/texts/ramanujan.pdf https://profcohen.net/reli113/uploads/texts/ramanujan.pdf
- shreyshnaccount 3y ago
  That being said there's definitely some insane extreme ideologies here but definitely not as common as some media would portray. Also the NCERT sucks
intel_brain 3y ago
Good. Lot of crap needs to removed from 11 and 12 classes too. CBSE / NCERT is bloated.
baerrie 3y ago
Understanding that atoms are the foundation of matter and evolutionary adaptation are fundamental to life goes directly against any religion that purports alternate explanations. There is nothing innocuous about this, it is a theocratic censure.
- boruto 3y ago
  They are teaching chemical elements, atoms and all. It is just that periodic table is moved from class 10 to 11. There is also reasearch that periodic table is difficult to teach in secondary schools. https://www.ejmste.com/article/reflections-on-teaching-periodic-table-concepts-a-case-study-of-selected-schools-in-south-africa-4732 https://www.ejmste.com/article/reflections-on-teaching-perio...
known 3y ago
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funnybusiness2 3y ago
Are these changes to school textbooks politically/religiously motivated? Debatable. Do these changes de-emphasize science education or merely reorganize it? Also debatable. Are these debates fairly represented by this nature.com article in a balanced way? NOT AT ALL. The bigger story here is the decline in credibility suffered by nature.com due to its publication of such an unbalanced article. nature.com used to be one of the gold standard for scientific publications. When they publish garbage like this, more people start to lean "anti-science".
31337Logic 3y ago
Wow. I'd consider this grounds for a riot-level protest in the street.
rideofvalkyrie 3y ago
Don't let facts stand in your way to senseless propaganda. The textbooks are all available online. Periodic table: https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 Evolution: https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 http://www.indiatodayne.in/national/story/ncert-syllabus-row-council-refutes-to-claim-of-dropping-evolution-and-periodic-table-from-textbooks-570060-2023-06-03 http://www.indiatodayne.in/national/story/ncert-syllabus-row... TLDR: Nature and most other western publications failed to do basic fact check, neither periodic table or evolution are 'cut' from textbooks. They're just moved to a different grade.
- funnybusiness2 3y ago
  Unfortunately, its likely much worse than merely failing to do fact checking. India has been handicapped by a highly insufficient educational system set up by the British (and later run by its puppets) for a very long time, that was meant to produce robots/slaves/peons, not independent thinkers. They are finally having discussions about how to redesign the education system, to empower its people to become future leaders, innovators. Given that India has a very young population, if they do this redesign right, it will pay off handsomely in the future. Of course, there are many parties who do not want to see that happen. So what do they do? They disrupt the public discourse taking place around this in the country by spreading disinformation via publications such as nature.com, that get scientists in India riled up against the education related gov't bodies, instead of collaboratively working with them. For a good overview of how idealogical subversion of this kind is carried out I would recommend watching interviews of Yuri Bezmenov on youtube.

287 points by abhas9 3y ago

Is education free in India ? I believe it is. With that said, seems India is mirroring the US in making sure only the wealthy will get a good education (private schools). It is a dangerous game doing that, eventually the mass will rise up once they realize their children have no hope in succeeding.

benced 3y ago
It is far more common in India to go to a private school. As a rule of thumb, if you know an educated Indian, they went to private school. https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/10/india-the-largest-experiment-in-private-schooling-in-history.html https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2022/10/in... This makes this decision both more and less outrageous. On one level, it had less effect than a similar decision than the US. On the other, it helps cripple the poor in India (who are actually poor, not American poor).
- schoubey 3y ago
  Both public and private schools in India use NCERT books and have the same examinations. Private schools only ensure things are taught better, what is taught is still the same.
  - joshuaissac 3y ago
    In my experience, government schools are far more likely to be state government schools than central government schools, and so they are more likely use the local state board's curriculum instead those of the CBSE or ICSE.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Depends on the State. For example in Delhi, a number of Govt of Delhi operated schools will use CBSE curriculum as well.
- Dig1t 3y ago
  That goes against what I heard from my Indian friends. I was told that public schools are actually more prestigious than private schools, they are more rigorous apparently?
  - joshuaissac 3y ago
    > public schools are actually more prestigious than private schools They are, but they are still private schools, not government schools. They are based in British public schools, where the word 'public' refers to the fact that students of any religion could historically be admitted to them, not that they are state-owned or state-controlled.
  - mhink 3y ago
    According to a commenter up-thread, what Americans call "public schools" are referred to as "government schools", and what Americans call "private schools" are referred to as "public schools". Probably a carryover in terminology from Britain, where extremely prestigious schools like Eton are called "public schools" for historical reasons.
    - desas 3y ago
      > where extremely prestigious schools like Eton are called "public schools" for historical reasons. In the UK public and private referred to who could access the schools (assuming they had the money), whereas in the US they refer to how the schools are funded. Now the UK has a kludge. The former private schools don't really exist, they've mainly changed into independent fee-paying public schools not controlled or funded by the state. In the meantime (i.e. centuries ago), the state started funding schools, including religiously selective schools and has been increasingly giving more independence to the schools it funds.
      - qwytw 3y ago
        What would be an example of a non public private school (even in the past?). I assumed the terms are basically synonymous in the UK?
mtoner23 3y ago
Its free but there aren't enough schools and many kids dont attend. The trend in the us is not making sure only the wealthy get a good education. more people in the us than ever go to college and we are smarter and more educated than ever before.
Arnavion 3y ago
(I'm Indian but left India ~15 years ago, so my info may be out of date.) It's free in government schools, what Americans would call public schools. Middle and upper class kids usually go to public schools, what Americans would call private schools, which have fees and may use non-NCERT textbooks too. I believe that for a school to be ratified it is only required that it teach at least what is mandated by the relevant education board (generally the national level one, CBSE), so it would be okay for a ratified school to use a private textbook that teaches the NCERT syllabus + periodic table + evolution. Also college coaching classes (for IIT-JEE etc) may continue to cover these topics anyway. Even during my time they were covering topics that had been cut from the government-mandated curriculum, so it wouldn't be surprising.

WhatsName 3y ago

Cutting and defunding education seems such a prevalent global trend, I find it hard to believe there is no hidden agenda. At least here it seems to happen with the clear political agenda. Who needs evolution and democracy anyways other than those inconvenient to the indian government.

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albatross13 3y ago
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hayst4ck 3y ago
It's a question of where your core axioms come from. The core axiom from which a person builds a belief system can be that contradictions are wrong or that authority (the bible/priest/parent) is right. This is why conservatives frequently fail to respond to pointing out their contradictions. Their core axiom is one of authority, contradictions have little bearing on their analysis of what is true or not. New information cannot invalidate their already known truth, so what they already "know" twists and molds the new information, rather than their current understanding adapting to the new information. This makes (real) education directly at odds with conservatism. Inquiry is an anathema to dogma. Conservatism is happy to teach things that are useful which is why you'll hear conservatives extol the virtues of technical education, but doesn't want to teach methods of inquiry or analysis or questioning ones self and ones assumptions, which is why you'll hear conservatism denigrate liberal arts or frequently secular education. One confusing factor for American conservatives is that the American tradition that is being conserved is a somewhat liberal tradition. So conservatives attach themselves to many (correct) liberal values, but fail to see that they believe those values as the result of their tradition (meaning as a result of authority), and not as the result of a process of rational inquiry. Put more succinctly: an educated population is a threat to authority and therefore conservatism.
- fluoridation 3y ago
  I'm not sure veneration of authority is a central aspect of conservatism. As I understand it, conservatism is about returning to a previous state of affairs that is perceived as favorable compared to the present, or about maintaining the status quo. It seems to me that two people who were raised in different contexts could be considered conservative with respect to their own contexts, while at the same time one being an authoritarian and the other being a libertarian.

schoubey 3y ago

"chapters on democracy and diversity; political parties; and challenges to democracy have been scrapped" this is even more dangerous.

alephnerd 3y ago

It's only affecting 10th grade CBSE (NCERT), not ICSE or state board* exams, let alone competitive board exams like the JEE (Engineering) or NEET (Medicine). It's still being taught in the NCERT books as well, but now in 12th grade instead of 10th grade. The scarier thing should be the rewriting of the history section of CBSE. * board is Indian English for curriculum Also, on the hierarchy of Indian board exams: Top - ICSE Medium - some State Boards Low - CBSE, some state boards Board exams are orthogonal to college entrance exams in India. For example, IIT and Engineering admissions are gated by the JEE, so students oftentimes bunk 10th-12th grade to study the JEE and try to get a D average in the Board exam (because there's only so much you can study). Board exams do have value though for most average colleges though and some top tier non-Eng ones (eg. If I wanted to study Law at St Stephen's College, University of Delhi or Business at Shri Ram College of Commerce, University of Delhi - both programs that feed into the political and business elite of India). The Indian system is confusing and weird and there is some reform within it to become much more similar to the American system, but that's a work in progress.

joshuaissac 3y ago
> board is Indian English for curriculum This sense of the word 'board' as in 'examination board' also exists in British English. The US also has the 'College Board' which sets some national exams.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  Yep. But we call 'em "AP tests", "PSATs", or "SATs". The word "Exam" isn't commonly used in American English.
  - whinenot 3y ago
    >"Exam" isn't commonly used in American English. Huh? Is this a homeschool trend? Final exams are the cornerstone of US secondary and tertiary education.
    - 3y ago

james-redwood 3y ago

Reading the source that Nature cites, it seems like the content has been made temporarily unexaminable ‘in light of COVID’, rather than the section actually getting cut from the textbook. https://ncert.nic.in/rationalised-content.php https://ncert.nic.in/rationalised-content.php Could any Indian with a new physical textbook perhaps confirm? It’s a rather concerning policy. The headline also seems awfully clickbaity. What the policy seems to have done is shifted basic evolution down to younger grades and moved the more advanced concepts to more senior grades. However, this shifts more advanced concepts up to grades in which science as a subject is not compulsory. Regressive as this is, this isn’t what the headline suggests.

deleted 3y ago
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alephnerd 3y ago
Here's the new textbook - https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?jesc1=0-13 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?jesc1=0-13 It still teaches Mendelian genetics (chpt 8), but then entire book seems severely dumbed down compared to older NCERT textbooks I've read before when bored on India trips. It might be because now you can't graduate high school in the 10th grade anymore in India - now you can only graduate at the 12th grade or transfer to a vocational college for 11th and 12th.

known 3y ago

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blagie 3y ago

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epups 3y ago
Who is removing the option to teach anything at home?
- throwaway5371 3y ago
  home schooling is practically illegal in most of western europe and school is taking more and more of the child's life
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    You can still teach your kid at home. I for one am glad that Europe expects and enforced certain education standards.
    - throwaway5371 3y ago
      it is education standard if you are on the right side of it, sometimes you see it as the formation of the new soviet man if you are not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Soviet_man
      - manuelabeledo 3y ago
        I’m sure homeschooled kids aren’t indoctrinated, at all.
        throwaway5371 3y ago
        of course they are, its a choice do you let the state do that or the family
nullindividual 3y ago

screye 3y ago

This makes no sense to me. This highly unlikely to be a political move. Science education is not political in India. Evolution, abortion, chemistry are not debated at all. This is more likely for the reasons to be innocuous. > In explaining its changes, NCERT states on its website that it considered whether content overlapped with similar content covered elsewhere, the difficulty of the content, and whether the content was irrelevant. It also aims to provide opportunities for experiential learning and creativity. > NCERT announced the cuts last year, saying that they would ease pressures on students studying online during the COVID-19 pandemic. Amitabh Joshi, an evolutionary biologist at Jawaharlal Nehru Centre for Advanced Scientific Research in Bengaluru, India, says that science teachers and researchers expected that the content would be reinstated once students returned to classrooms. Instead, the NCERT shocked everyone by printing textbooks for the new academic year with a statement that the changes will remain for the next two academic years, in line with India’s revised education policy approved by government in July 2020. Sounds more like students have continued lagging behind after coming back from Covid, than anything malicious. I have literally never heard of national politicians in India being anti-science. I might be wrong, but I would genuinely like to see 1st source statements from the board indicating that these changes are religiously motivated.

lannisterstark 3y ago
"Science education is not political in India" You've not seen the back cover of textbooks that says X or Y is only possible because of the generosity of the "Insert current Chief Minister of State?"
neilk 3y ago
I have no idea exactly how much this particular curriculum change is influenced by religion. But your assertion that science is depoliticized in India is very wrong. In 2018, the education minister declared Darwin was wrong. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/23/indian-education-minister-dismisses-theory-of-evolution-satyapal-singh https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/23/indian-educati... This is just one of many such troubling incidents, including apparent indifference to the murder of pro-rationalism academics. Anecdotally, if you have people from India in your life, this is inescapable. Constant barrage of forwards on WhatsApp of Hindu supremacy, which necessarily have to flip history upside down. The story goes that Hindus had nuclear energy 10,000 years ago, but filthy foreigners corrupted Mother India.

mdev 3y ago

This is not what the title makes it to seem, most of India believes science and education leads to success in life and for the country. If anything businesses will now make more money by teaching periodic tables and evolution in "coaching classes"

givemeethekeys 3y ago

I'm calling shenanigans. There are many education systems in India. There's a central one, but each state has its own. Indians at every economic level (except maybe the very top) value STEM education above everything else. I wish we'd learn to dial back the hysteria. I wish people weren't so damn trigger happy.

spaceman_2020 3y ago
They don’t value STEM education. They value they jobs and prestige STEM education can get them. Remove the ability to get well paying engineering/medicine jobs from the equation and they’ll treat STEM education with the same disdain they have for commerce, or worse, humanities. There is very little real appreciation of education. Only its byproducts, namely, jobs.
- givemeethekeys 3y ago
  > They don’t value STEM education. They value they jobs and prestige STEM education can get them. Second sentence disagrees with the first sentence.
  - notRobot 3y ago
    You don't have to like cows to like milk.
    - givemeethekeys 3y ago
      You don't have to like something to value it.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    I prompted GPT-4 on ChatGPT with the following > I read an internet comment that said "They don’t value STEM education. They value they jobs and prestige STEM education can get them." The second sentence seems to contradict the first. Can you explain if it does? And it gave quite a good explanation. If you'd like I can share the chat, but perhaps you'd like to give it a shot yourself?

fractalb 3y ago

They actually cut the syllabus for students below class X. It's not a ban or anything. And it's only NCERT's (central board of education) syllabus. Each state has its own education board and syllabus. The headline is not honest.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
if each state can just ignore the NCERT curriculum, and if the NCERT curriculum itself is educationally insufficient (not teaching evolution or the periodic table in a school curriculum makes that curriculum a failure), then what is the point of the NCERT curriculum?
- SJetKaran 3y ago
  So, India has different systems of curriculum, at national level CBSE/NCERT and ICSE, and many states have their own. Each school individually is affiliated to one of the curriculums.
  - ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
    right, and we are discussing the curriculum at the national level, which is educationally insufficient why have an educationally insufficient NCERT curriculum?
- occamschainsaw 3y ago
  It is the common central/federal baseline. It is accepted as a high school credential everywhere in India (other boards are accepted in general too, but NCERT has to be accepted). This insufficiency with weird omission for evolution and periodic table seems to be due to covid after effects or general incompetence rather than malice. I studied in 3 different boards at different points of schooling and the rule of thumb was state board, NCERT/CBSE and ICSE in increasing order of “rigor”. The last two years of high school are spent in preparing for competitive entrance exams anyways, whose syllabus usually is a superset of the school syllabus in your chosen field (engineering, medicine, sciences etc.)

donatj 3y ago

They're not learning about on the periodic table prior to age 16? You've got to be joking, That's like early elementary school stuff.

villgax 3y ago

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keithxm23 3y ago

Title is clickbait

spaceman_2020 3y ago

India has been getting high on its own supply for a few years now. The narrative is that all knowledge originated in ancient Indian texts and was stolen by the west. Even the ISRO chief made a comment in this vein a few days back. Cultures that keep looking at imagined past glories, imo, are destined to become static and falter.

local_crmdgeon 3y ago
>Cultures that keep looking at imagined past glories, imo, are destined to become static and falter. If education was just chanting this half the day the world would be better off. I had a Hindu nationalist recently berate me about how the "US had lost the Space Race, ISRO was the clear winner." I mentioned the US landed on the Moon first, and he said "would rather have not landed on the Moon than live in a country with a large number of Black people" (put less pleasantly). Weird guy! Weird political movement!
- jcranmer 3y ago
  > I had a Hindu nationalist recently berate me about how the "US had lost the Space Race, ISRO was the clear winner." ... did they give any examples of ISRO space accomplishments that predate US or Soviet accomplishment?
  - local_crmdgeon 3y ago
    No, he just pivoted to talking about how America is just a bunch of "Black ghettos" and then I blocked him.
  - ff2400t 3y ago
    One important thing to know about people like these is that they don't have a rational argument They have a Believe and they like to shout it out to the world.
    - jcranmer 3y ago
      Oh, I'm absolutely aware of that, I was just curious if there was literally anything they could point to that could, if viewed at through significantly rose-colored lenses, be seen as support for their statement. Like maybe (given my previous experience with Hindu nationalists) some passage in the Vedas that was interpreted to mean ancient Hindus were actually a spacefaring race or something.

vondur 3y ago

Why would you cut the periodic table from curriculum? I'm a chem major and have never heard of such a thing before.

Jeff_Brown 3y ago
The closest I see the article coming to explaining the changes are in this passage: "... considered whether content overlapped with similar content covered elsewhere, the difficulty of the content, and whether the content was irrelevant ... It also aims to provide opportunities for experiential learning and creativity." i.e. to reduce redundancy, make room for something else in the curriculum, or to improve grade point averages. Another possibility not mentioned would be to provide ideological cover. Delete some things unrelated to ideology, and you have some degree of plausible deniability re. accusations of dogma. But I find the earlier rationales more plausible. Particularly if they come from people who do not themselves understand the importance of the concepts they are cutting.
witchesindublin 3y ago
It does not actually say that it is taken out of the curriculum. It says that it is taken out from textbooks in a certain year. That means nothing in the context of Indian education considering how accessible a periodic table is.

SpaceManNabs 3y ago

Kinda wild to see comments on here saying that India's slide into religious fascism isn't a big deal. "We/Indians don't politicize science" "There are many education authorities" I think this is only affecting a particular grade, but we already have seen the slow rollout of other efforts. You can't normalize politicians saying stuff like "our ancient civilization had nuclear energy". edit: surprised that I wasn't immediately downvoted. A year ago, talking about this was instant downvotes, on any platform. I guess enough people have noticed this behavior.

ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
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- SpaceManNabs 3y ago
  Completely irrelevant. I find this whataboutism as a very common pushback when I comment on my sadness on the direction of India. I have no connection, but I have empathy for my friends that feel like they lost a home.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > This, my dear friends, is Abrahamic privilege at work I mean, yes. There are idiots in the world, and they're not limited to one religion. We generally decry putting them in positions of power, particularly over eduction.
SAS_SBS 3y ago
Most Indians are in fact happy about that slide, given that 80%+ of the country are Hindus. What a shame!
- mavelikara 3y ago
  It is presumptuous to suggest that every Hindu is happy with the slide to Hindutva.
  - 3y ago

toddm 3y ago

India is the new Texas.

vinay_ys 3y ago

I don't think this is political or some other non-educational agenda driven. No politician in India has ever thought of education curriculum as part of their vote bank political thinking nor will they take the effort needed go interfere in the academic processes that result in these textbooks. Anyway, it really doesn't matter if some of these topics are removed from these specific textbooks because most science students who are aspiring to go for engineering or medical undergrad college will study those topics as part of preparations for college entrance exams. Stuff like evolution, environmental pollution and periodic tables will be studied by even those who are applying for Indian civil service exams. Also, there is no danger of creationism taking hold in India just because evolution is not taught in high school. Also, religious beliefs in India are very diverse and rich and highly complicated that nobody who is inclined to learn sciences will confuse religious beliefs and mythological stories with practical sciences. Edit: btw, all textbooks are available for free download here: https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php You can evaluate for yourself and make your own mind. I for one envy students of today with all the rich multimedia material at their fingertips especially to learn formal and natural sciences.

standardUser 3y ago

I found it really beneficial to be exposed to these concepts at a very young age, giving me a lot of exposure over many years and helping inform my overall view of science and the world as I grew up. I had a particularly keen interest in evolution starting with a visit to the Museum of Natural History in NYC at age 6! My mother bought my friend and I pamphlets on evolution (my mother had to clear it with his parents before giving it to him) and it became on ongoing fascination for me for many years. I know little-to-nothing about elementary education in India, but I always appreciated the broad-based approach to education I experienced in the US, with various concept introduced very early, and then re-introduced periodically over the years. If anything, I would support throwing more knowledge at young students, knowing that they'll only absorb a fraction of it. Though I suppose that approach is anathema to standardized testing.

Bekknqv 3y ago

Teachers will still be teaching (and this is probably what NCERT expects) these basic topics, because teaching the topics that remain won't be easy without them. My sibling was in grade 10 when COVID hit, some topics that had been removed from the final exam were still taught (although in a somewhat brief manner, considering this was online schooling). Indian politicians say a lot of dumb and pseudo-scientific garbage, but a few subpar comments here are wildly quoting those to act as if they're rewriting all of science in India. They've purely made omissions, no additions/revisions. And evolution is still a chapter in grade 12 biology books- https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 You can also find the periodic table in grade 9 science textbooks (page 6)- https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6

Bekknqv 3y ago
EDIT: Made a very silly mistake (in my defence, it was late at night). The FULL periodic table is there in grade 11, not 9. Grade 9 only introduces you to the first 18 elements on the table.

p0w3n3d 3y ago

Bloodywood - Gaddar

dexzod 3y ago

I scanned the whole article but could not find any mention of the reason behind this move. I mean evolution may be violating some Hindu teaching but what is the problem with periodic table of elements?

Bekknqv 3y ago
They're trying to reduce the burden on students. Don't exactly know if evolution violates some Hindu teachings, but a statement was released last month stating that evolution was removed from the grade 10 book because it's present in the grade 12 book- https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bhubaneswar/darwins-theory-is-in-class-12-books-minister/articleshow/99798814.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bhubaneswar/darwins... Similarly, I'm guessing the periodic table was removed from the grade 10 book because it's already present in the grade 9 book. IMO they probably should've kept a page or two about evolution though, because after grade 10, students are free to pick their own courses (which doesn't have to be biology), but this is probably debatable. I'm all for reducing the burden though. This Nature article is pretty poorly written (by Nature's standards) and lowkey sounds like the drivel I'd expect from Indian media.
- duskwuff 3y ago
  > Similarly, I'm guessing the periodic table was removed from the grade 10 book because it's already present in the grade 9 book. That still doesn't make sense. The periodic table doesn't stop being relevant in 10th grade just because it was introduced in 9th grade.
  - Bekknqv 3y ago
    Right, but the goal here is to reduce the burden by removing things that are already present elsewhere. You could probably make the same argument for a bunch of other 9th grade topics. Regardless, teachers won't just pretend like the periodic table doesn't exist though, they'll talk about it in 10th grade too, because it ties into a few other chapters, but the key difference is that the students won't be graded on it in their final exams.
- 3y ago

bluepod4 3y ago

I’m not too familiar with Indian education systems. Does anyone have an idea if and how this would affect future JEE exams? I’m specifically referring to the removal of the periodic table for students under 16 years old. Also, maybe I missed it, but what’s the point of _removing_ the chapters instead of just not _teaching_ them?

Bekknqv 3y ago
The periodic table is actually already present in the 9th grade textbook. As it stands, they haven't changed the JEE syllabus, so you do have to learn it either way. Probably just to save paper and make lighter books? Not sure. Back in my day, they'd just ask us to ignore chapters that weren't in the syllabus.

ilrwbwrkhv 3y ago

Now just imagine the next generation of Java developers who will come out of the country.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

Speaking of the periodic table. I learned during Covid that my fourth grader could memorize the entire thing when I practiced the song with her :)

malikNF 3y ago
Back home we had a bit of a vulgar song for the periodic table, as kids who were forced to memorize this, the song was much more entertaining and memorable.

debacle 3y ago

What a deceptive headline. They cut these things from general science courses (what Americans would consider K-8), but they are still part of "high school" biology.

waterheater 3y ago

Indians predominantly subscribe to the Hindu belief system, which is quite foreign from the Western ideologies imposed on them by the British. Consider the concepts of atman (essentially, meaning Self) and avatars (essentially, deities coming down to earth to take on human form). Darwinian evolution acts as a simplified, analogous representation of the grander evolution of Self as told in Hindu mythology. According to Hinduism, atman evolves by inhabiting more complete forms of physical vessel, passing from fish to amphibian to cow to human to Buddha. Additionally, Hindu belief systems admit the existence of reincarnative process, which Western belief systems, including our most fundamental prevailing scientific axiom, do not. Darwinian evolution and an overarching reincarnative process cannot coexist because the former requires that the physical world is the totality of reality while the latter requires that the physical world is a small but important portion of reality. Humans are either the descendants of monkeys via a completely-observable evolutionary process, or forces beyond those which are Seen shape our development. Western arrogance dismisses these ideas as invalid at face value. A Westerner should honestly seek to understand the Hindu belief system and suss out where it is accurate and inaccurate without resorting to pathos argumentation.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Darwinian evolution and an overarching reincarnative process cannot coexist because the former requires that the physical world is the totality of reality What? No it doesn't. In fact, evolution comports rather nicely with reincarnation–there is a finite number of souls reincarnating through ever-evolving bodies, working together across time to press life as a whole forward. > Humans are either the descendants of monkeys via a completely-observable evolutionary process Humans are not descendants of monkeys. That is not, and has never been science. Humans and monkey share a common ancestor, as do all mammals.
qwytw 3y ago
> without resorting to pathos argumentation Unless there is observable evidence for these claims it might be the complete inverse of that? > from the Western ideologies imposed on them by the British. So all the people who actually have embraced scientific thought (logical reasoning in general) only did so because the British forced? Seems like a great bunch.. these British, just don't tell this to the French or Germans.

wly_cdgr 3y ago

Prepping the serfs for war with China

deleted 3y ago
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getcrunk 3y ago
Ding ding ding. India has always been very education and tech forward. Hopefully this is a not the beginning of a trend, but the increased nationalism and authoritarianism (crypto, vpn ban) would fit very well with a dumbed down populace.

killjoywashere 3y ago

The only way I can see this making rational sense is if the senior leaders in the government are in possession of secret, solid evidence that population growth is about to become lethal in the extreme, and this is a radical move by the government to precipitate their own depopulation through mass starvation. But I seriously doubt that's the case and the mechanism of action seems weak.

kepler1 3y ago

Does anyone else get the feeling that the "great filter" to our continued global civilization advance is how you manage, after reaching a certain size, the millions of competing motivations and concerns that branch out and cause confusion when there are no longer just a few clear problems to solve?

amriksohata 3y ago

There is a lot of pressure by Churches especially in the South of India not to teach evolution. And from other religions.

kazinator 3y ago

Right; we wouldn't want the next generation of one of the most populous nations, that is at a more imminent and grave risk from global warming than most others, to have a science background? It's like some secret plot perpetrated by an external enemy who aims to eradicate the nation.

vivegi 3y ago

This news seems misleading. A charitable reading of the article would assign it a category of "clickbait". The periodic table and evolution are still part of high school curriculum. Here are the links to the class XI textbook for Chemistry (the so called rationalized text books for 2023-24). Chemistry Part I, Unit 3, Classification of Elements and Periodicity in Properties. (Link to PDF) https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 in pg 77, Mendeleev's original periodic table in pg 79, Long form of the periodic table (modern periodic table) Here is the link for class XII textbook for Biology. Biology, Chapter 6, Evolution. (link to PDF) https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 6.1 Origin of Life 6.2 Evolution of Life Forms - A Theory 6.3 What are the Evidences for Evolution? 6.4 What is Adaptive Radiation? 6.5 Biological Evolution 6.6 Mechanism of Evolution 6.7 Hardy - Weinberg Principle 6.8 A Brief Account of Evolution 6.9 Origin and Evolution of Man The Nature article's summary below the headline states > Nature has learnt that the periodic table, as well as evolution, won’t be taught to under-16s as they start the new school year. Yeah, duh! It is taught in Class XI and XII in Chemistry and Biology, just not in Class IX or X as it used to be done previously. Weaving this as some major conspiracy is dishonest and ridiculous. For the benefit of US readers: Class IX is freshman high school year, Class X is sophomore year, Class XI is junior year, Class XII is senior year.

msravi 3y ago

This is false: https://twitter.com/deepakshenoy/status/1664098996242006017?s=20 https://twitter.com/deepakshenoy/status/1664098996242006017?...

shreyshnaccount 3y ago

India is a country of contradictions. My mom was a bio teacher, and obviously believes in the concept of evolution. But she's also spiritual and religious, and believes in creationist theories. She is somehow able to juxtapose both into creating a meaningful "story". Id encourage non-Indians to read up about India to have the cultural context we grow up in https://profcohen.net/reli113/uploads/texts/ramanujan.pdf https://profcohen.net/reli113/uploads/texts/ramanujan.pdf

shreyshnaccount 3y ago
That being said there's definitely some insane extreme ideologies here but definitely not as common as some media would portray. Also the NCERT sucks

intel_brain 3y ago

Good. Lot of crap needs to removed from 11 and 12 classes too. CBSE / NCERT is bloated.

baerrie 3y ago

Understanding that atoms are the foundation of matter and evolutionary adaptation are fundamental to life goes directly against any religion that purports alternate explanations. There is nothing innocuous about this, it is a theocratic censure.

boruto 3y ago
They are teaching chemical elements, atoms and all. It is just that periodic table is moved from class 10 to 11. There is also reasearch that periodic table is difficult to teach in secondary schools. https://www.ejmste.com/article/reflections-on-teaching-periodic-table-concepts-a-case-study-of-selected-schools-in-south-africa-4732 https://www.ejmste.com/article/reflections-on-teaching-perio...

known 3y ago

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funnybusiness2 3y ago

Are these changes to school textbooks politically/religiously motivated? Debatable. Do these changes de-emphasize science education or merely reorganize it? Also debatable. Are these debates fairly represented by this nature.com article in a balanced way? NOT AT ALL. The bigger story here is the decline in credibility suffered by nature.com due to its publication of such an unbalanced article. nature.com used to be one of the gold standard for scientific publications. When they publish garbage like this, more people start to lean "anti-science".

31337Logic 3y ago

Wow. I'd consider this grounds for a riot-level protest in the street.

rideofvalkyrie 3y ago

Don't let facts stand in your way to senseless propaganda. The textbooks are all available online. Periodic table: https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?kech1=3-6 Evolution: https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php?lebo1=6-13 http://www.indiatodayne.in/national/story/ncert-syllabus-row-council-refutes-to-claim-of-dropping-evolution-and-periodic-table-from-textbooks-570060-2023-06-03 http://www.indiatodayne.in/national/story/ncert-syllabus-row... TLDR: Nature and most other western publications failed to do basic fact check, neither periodic table or evolution are 'cut' from textbooks. They're just moved to a different grade.

funnybusiness2 3y ago
Unfortunately, its likely much worse than merely failing to do fact checking. India has been handicapped by a highly insufficient educational system set up by the British (and later run by its puppets) for a very long time, that was meant to produce robots/slaves/peons, not independent thinkers. They are finally having discussions about how to redesign the education system, to empower its people to become future leaders, innovators. Given that India has a very young population, if they do this redesign right, it will pay off handsomely in the future. Of course, there are many parties who do not want to see that happen. So what do they do? They disrupt the public discourse taking place around this in the country by spreading disinformation via publications such as nature.com, that get scientists in India riled up against the education related gov't bodies, instead of collaboratively working with them. For a good overview of how idealogical subversion of this kind is carried out I would recommend watching interviews of Yuri Bezmenov on youtube.