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Does anyone know if Lyft plan to contribute their map corrections back to OSM? They mention other companies doing so in this blog post, but don't make it clear

by bri3d 3y ago

Does anyone know if Lyft plan to contribute their map corrections back to OSM? They mention other companies doing so in this blog post, but don't make it clear whether or not they, too, intend to. I'm curious to see how good Lyft Maps is, too. Uber Maps is, frankly, a disaster in my area, frequently suggesting illegal and/or impossible turns. I try to submit map feedback every trip (very hard as a rider, as most forms of available feedback seem to be to punish the driver rather than the platform), and it's still never been fixed. Most drivers seem to use Google Maps or Waze instead and if I see a driver using Uber Maps, I need to watch the trip and suggest several corrections. Ironically, I'm only a few miles from the office where most Uber Maps staff used to work.

throwaway049 3y ago
I've submitted a correction for an illegal turn instruction twice on Google maps. No reply. But my other corrections have been accepted.
- digdigdag 3y ago
  Providing feedback to large corporate machines is akin to screaming into the void at this point. Sometimes the void hears you and responds with a generous canned message. Other times you unsurprisingly get silence. That's why I became completely divested and disinterested in providing general feedback for maps, locations etc.
- Retric 3y ago
  Map creators include intentionally incorrect information (Map Traps) so people copying them are obviously copying them. I sometimes wonder if that’s the root cause of companies failing to correct some of their mistakes. https://www.gislounge.com/map-traps-intentional-mapping-errors-combat-plagiarism/ https://www.gislounge.com/map-traps-intentional-mapping-erro...
  - bri3d 3y ago
    Using anything that could cause incorrect directions as a trap location / trap street would be a ridiculously bad idea. I strongly suspect the reason is a more standard corporate one; the volume of corrections and signal to noise ratio is probably quite poor. In the case of my repeated Uber map correction attempt, I suspect that my correction isn't prioritized because of two factors: first, the turn which Uber Maps suggests, while both illegal and very dangerous, is not impossible (it's an illegal left turn accomplished by making a U-Turn around an island designed to prevent left turns). So, they probably see enough volume of "driver completed route as suggested" data signals to ignore any "but it's illegal and dangerous" complaints, a classic problem with "data driven" systems. And, Uber don't seem to have a real process for riders to submit mapping corrections, only drivers, so my request is unlikely to ever be routed to the correct queue to begin with.
  - pietervdvn 3y ago
    Map Traps (as these are called) are normally pretty harmless, e.g. a non-existent, small cul-de-sac that doesn't exist. A turn restriction (which is quite invisible!) seldom is.
    - Scoundreller 3y ago
      Meanwhile, in Toronto, I see some bigger driveways listed as roads on Google maps, and I always wonder if it’s a legally correct city survey artefact and I could park a car there etc. if I wanted, or just a trap/misclassification. https://maps.app.goo.gl/CXRh6LFRhgZo1P9k8?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/CXRh6LFRhgZo1P9k8?g_st=ic
      - pietervdvn 3y ago
        Yeah, good question. Whether it was intentional or not, it still acts as good Map Trap
- altairprime 3y ago
  The way to get that corrected is to ask the local police to ticket illegal turns at that intersection for a day, indicating that Google refuses to correct the issue and is directing hundreds of violations a day at the intersection. Google ignores unenforced road signs that are frequently ignored by their data providers (drivers), so enforcement complaints from drivers are necessary to force the correction.
  - throwaway049 3y ago
    Their other data providers are me, as a user submitting a correction, and Streetview, which they could use to confirm the turn restriction.
- bsimpson 3y ago
  I don't understand how Maps verification works. I've added sidewalk vendors to the map with names like "coconut cakes lady," and had them approved instantly. I've also tried to rename streets, including the news article about the name change, and had them unceremoniously ignored. Same for adding a new bar to the map with a photo of the menu, even though other places I've added have had hundreds of thousands of views. There doesn't seem to be an underlying system. There's a famous traffic stop in Muine, Vietnam listed as something like "social security office." The photos are all of the traffic stop. The reviews are about the traffic stop. If you run the name on Maps through translate, it comes back "traffic stop." I've tried repeatedly changing the category to "traffic police" and been silently denied. There's a bar in downtown SF at the wrong address. Comments are about the address being wrong. There's even a photo that says "our address on Maps is wrong." Try to fix it in Maps? Denied.
sushisource 3y ago
I also find it consistently obnoxious that there is essentially no way to say "My driver was fine, but your platform did something stupid" when leaving feedback. At least, not without jumping through a million hoops. The arrogance of our industry is tiresome. I took a ride in SF a while ago and it predicted a 3 minute pick up time which turned out to be 25 minutes - no fault of the driver, and the only way I could complain about this was to click through like 4 levels of "other issue" and then jump through hoops sending emails back and forth with support.
- ryandrake 3y ago
  Pick up time predictions are garbage, because ride shares allow cancelations. Last time I used a ride share, I had eight drivers accept and then cancel on me. The predicted departure time was always "8 minutes away" and then "looking for another driver" over and over. I probably waited an hour.
  - jazzyjackson 3y ago
    Talking to a driver about this I was told that the platform is always re-routing drivers to maximize revenue for lyft, so when the app says "finding you another driver", it's not the driver that canceled, it's the platform decided that driver was better off, revenue wise, to complete a different fare. The fact that this is opaque to the end user just means we get mad at the workers and not the corporation, classic.
    - londons_explore 3y ago
      The fact that OP can see "finding another driver" 8 times suggests that perhaps there is some prioritization system, and OP was low priority - such that if any other request came in before him, then the driver would be re-routed.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        Possible that those shitty tips you've been leaving are adding up in other ways? I live in a neighborhood that borders a part of town that is accepted as a "bad" part of town and is often confused as being part of that part of town. I have only ever not had the "finding another driver" twice from my house, and originally assumed it was location location location. I had a guest stay with me last summer, and they never received that treatment which led me to believe it was an account thing. We'd test by requesting a car at the same time. Their rates were cheaper, and they never had a new driver issue.
uneekname 3y ago
Lyft is one of the biggest contributors to OSM. Here is a list of OSM accounts related to Lyft [0]. In many places where I've edited OSM, Lyft employees have contributed quality data where there wasn't any before. How (and, how respectfully) companies should contribute to OSM is an ongoing debate. But corporate influences are often a good thing, and I think nearly anyone would agree that Lyft's contributions to OSM have been resoundingly helpful. [0] https://github.com/OSM-DCT-Lyft/US/wiki/OSM-Team-Members https://github.com/OSM-DCT-Lyft/US/wiki/OSM-Team-Members
- bri3d 3y ago
  Isn't this the driverless car team, vs. the ride-mapping team? Regardless, it's good to see that they are contributing back to OSM. I agree that overall the use of OSM by anyone "lifts all ships" as long as users continue to contribute back. OSM is one of the most positive projects around lately in terms of taking something that used to be extremely expensive and highly restricted and democratizing it.
  - ninja3925 3y ago
    I used to work for Lyft and I can confirm that both teams (driverless and ride-share) contribute. Ride-share scaled later which may give you that false impression. And Yes, it's a big investment for Lyft for the open source community.
  - uneekname 3y ago
    That may be true. But as a whole, it is worth noting that Lyft hires a significant number of people to edit OSM. Here is an interesting 2021 post by Jennings Anderson discussing paid edits on OSM, and how companies compare in their contributions: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Jennings%20Anderson/diary/396271 https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Jennings%20Anderson/diary... I agree about how successful OSM has been recently. In an age where Wikipedia for example seems relatively mature, it's fun to see OSM grow at such a pace.
    - mistrial9 3y ago
acslater00 3y ago
Yes - Lyft contributed the overwhelming majority of the new data back into OSM. The only exceptions were layers that didn't meet OSM community standards for various technical reasons. Source - I led this team
- mistrial9 3y ago
  your team contributed more OSM changes than .. who? everyone else in the whole world?
  - jaywalk 3y ago
    I'm pretty sure he meant that Lyft contributed the overwhelming majority of the changes they made to OSM.
  - bri3d 3y ago
    They're saying "we contributed the overwhelming majority of the data we collected and corrected, except for that which wasn't eligible for contribution." It really seems like Lyft operated in good faith here, they just didn't mention it in the blog post.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    some people's reading comprehension...
- NelsonMinar 3y ago
  Thanks for making the contributions, we all benefit!
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  If you had any pull in that decision, well done. You made the world a little bit better for everyone. Can't ask for much more than that sometimes.
piebro 3y ago
Here is an overview of which corporation contribute how many edits based on the osm account names affiliated with the corporations: https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#b34d https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#b34d Lyft is the eleventh most active company by edit count with a total of 4M edits and 1.5M edits in the last year. Disclaimer: I created the stats and website.

by bri3d 3y ago

throwaway049 3y ago

I've submitted a correction for an illegal turn instruction twice on Google maps. No reply. But my other corrections have been accepted.

digdigdag 3y ago
Providing feedback to large corporate machines is akin to screaming into the void at this point. Sometimes the void hears you and responds with a generous canned message. Other times you unsurprisingly get silence. That's why I became completely divested and disinterested in providing general feedback for maps, locations etc.
Retric 3y ago
Map creators include intentionally incorrect information (Map Traps) so people copying them are obviously copying them. I sometimes wonder if that’s the root cause of companies failing to correct some of their mistakes. https://www.gislounge.com/map-traps-intentional-mapping-errors-combat-plagiarism/ https://www.gislounge.com/map-traps-intentional-mapping-erro...
- bri3d 3y ago
  Using anything that could cause incorrect directions as a trap location / trap street would be a ridiculously bad idea. I strongly suspect the reason is a more standard corporate one; the volume of corrections and signal to noise ratio is probably quite poor. In the case of my repeated Uber map correction attempt, I suspect that my correction isn't prioritized because of two factors: first, the turn which Uber Maps suggests, while both illegal and very dangerous, is not impossible (it's an illegal left turn accomplished by making a U-Turn around an island designed to prevent left turns). So, they probably see enough volume of "driver completed route as suggested" data signals to ignore any "but it's illegal and dangerous" complaints, a classic problem with "data driven" systems. And, Uber don't seem to have a real process for riders to submit mapping corrections, only drivers, so my request is unlikely to ever be routed to the correct queue to begin with.
- pietervdvn 3y ago
  Map Traps (as these are called) are normally pretty harmless, e.g. a non-existent, small cul-de-sac that doesn't exist. A turn restriction (which is quite invisible!) seldom is.
  - Scoundreller 3y ago
    Meanwhile, in Toronto, I see some bigger driveways listed as roads on Google maps, and I always wonder if it’s a legally correct city survey artefact and I could park a car there etc. if I wanted, or just a trap/misclassification. https://maps.app.goo.gl/CXRh6LFRhgZo1P9k8?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/CXRh6LFRhgZo1P9k8?g_st=ic
    - pietervdvn 3y ago
      Yeah, good question. Whether it was intentional or not, it still acts as good Map Trap
altairprime 3y ago
The way to get that corrected is to ask the local police to ticket illegal turns at that intersection for a day, indicating that Google refuses to correct the issue and is directing hundreds of violations a day at the intersection. Google ignores unenforced road signs that are frequently ignored by their data providers (drivers), so enforcement complaints from drivers are necessary to force the correction.
- throwaway049 3y ago
  Their other data providers are me, as a user submitting a correction, and Streetview, which they could use to confirm the turn restriction.
bsimpson 3y ago
I don't understand how Maps verification works. I've added sidewalk vendors to the map with names like "coconut cakes lady," and had them approved instantly. I've also tried to rename streets, including the news article about the name change, and had them unceremoniously ignored. Same for adding a new bar to the map with a photo of the menu, even though other places I've added have had hundreds of thousands of views. There doesn't seem to be an underlying system. There's a famous traffic stop in Muine, Vietnam listed as something like "social security office." The photos are all of the traffic stop. The reviews are about the traffic stop. If you run the name on Maps through translate, it comes back "traffic stop." I've tried repeatedly changing the category to "traffic police" and been silently denied. There's a bar in downtown SF at the wrong address. Comments are about the address being wrong. There's even a photo that says "our address on Maps is wrong." Try to fix it in Maps? Denied.

sushisource 3y ago

I also find it consistently obnoxious that there is essentially no way to say "My driver was fine, but your platform did something stupid" when leaving feedback. At least, not without jumping through a million hoops. The arrogance of our industry is tiresome. I took a ride in SF a while ago and it predicted a 3 minute pick up time which turned out to be 25 minutes - no fault of the driver, and the only way I could complain about this was to click through like 4 levels of "other issue" and then jump through hoops sending emails back and forth with support.

ryandrake 3y ago
Pick up time predictions are garbage, because ride shares allow cancelations. Last time I used a ride share, I had eight drivers accept and then cancel on me. The predicted departure time was always "8 minutes away" and then "looking for another driver" over and over. I probably waited an hour.
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  Talking to a driver about this I was told that the platform is always re-routing drivers to maximize revenue for lyft, so when the app says "finding you another driver", it's not the driver that canceled, it's the platform decided that driver was better off, revenue wise, to complete a different fare. The fact that this is opaque to the end user just means we get mad at the workers and not the corporation, classic.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    The fact that OP can see "finding another driver" 8 times suggests that perhaps there is some prioritization system, and OP was low priority - such that if any other request came in before him, then the driver would be re-routed.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Possible that those shitty tips you've been leaving are adding up in other ways? I live in a neighborhood that borders a part of town that is accepted as a "bad" part of town and is often confused as being part of that part of town. I have only ever not had the "finding another driver" twice from my house, and originally assumed it was location location location. I had a guest stay with me last summer, and they never received that treatment which led me to believe it was an account thing. We'd test by requesting a car at the same time. Their rates were cheaper, and they never had a new driver issue.

uneekname 3y ago

Lyft is one of the biggest contributors to OSM. Here is a list of OSM accounts related to Lyft [0]. In many places where I've edited OSM, Lyft employees have contributed quality data where there wasn't any before. How (and, how respectfully) companies should contribute to OSM is an ongoing debate. But corporate influences are often a good thing, and I think nearly anyone would agree that Lyft's contributions to OSM have been resoundingly helpful. [0] https://github.com/OSM-DCT-Lyft/US/wiki/OSM-Team-Members https://github.com/OSM-DCT-Lyft/US/wiki/OSM-Team-Members

bri3d 3y ago
Isn't this the driverless car team, vs. the ride-mapping team? Regardless, it's good to see that they are contributing back to OSM. I agree that overall the use of OSM by anyone "lifts all ships" as long as users continue to contribute back. OSM is one of the most positive projects around lately in terms of taking something that used to be extremely expensive and highly restricted and democratizing it.
- ninja3925 3y ago
  I used to work for Lyft and I can confirm that both teams (driverless and ride-share) contribute. Ride-share scaled later which may give you that false impression. And Yes, it's a big investment for Lyft for the open source community.
- uneekname 3y ago
  That may be true. But as a whole, it is worth noting that Lyft hires a significant number of people to edit OSM. Here is an interesting 2021 post by Jennings Anderson discussing paid edits on OSM, and how companies compare in their contributions: https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Jennings%20Anderson/diary/396271 https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Jennings%20Anderson/diary... I agree about how successful OSM has been recently. In an age where Wikipedia for example seems relatively mature, it's fun to see OSM grow at such a pace.
  - mistrial9 3y ago

acslater00 3y ago

Yes - Lyft contributed the overwhelming majority of the new data back into OSM. The only exceptions were layers that didn't meet OSM community standards for various technical reasons. Source - I led this team

mistrial9 3y ago
your team contributed more OSM changes than .. who? everyone else in the whole world?
- jaywalk 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure he meant that Lyft contributed the overwhelming majority of the changes they made to OSM.
- bri3d 3y ago
  They're saying "we contributed the overwhelming majority of the data we collected and corrected, except for that which wasn't eligible for contribution." It really seems like Lyft operated in good faith here, they just didn't mention it in the blog post.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  some people's reading comprehension...
NelsonMinar 3y ago
Thanks for making the contributions, we all benefit!
idiotsecant 3y ago
If you had any pull in that decision, well done. You made the world a little bit better for everyone. Can't ask for much more than that sometimes.

piebro 3y ago

Here is an overview of which corporation contribute how many edits based on the osm account names affiliated with the corporations: https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#b34d https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#b34d Lyft is the eleventh most active company by edit count with a total of 4M edits and 1.5M edits in the last year. Disclaimer: I created the stats and website.