6 ms·

This happened a while ago and was related to the trademark/copyright issue. It’s an immature move and I can’t take this seriously. All this does is creating unn

This happened a while ago and was related to the trademark/copyright issue. It’s an immature move and I can’t take this seriously. All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation.

silisili 3y ago
> All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation. They are doing a fantastic job of creating drama all by themselves. I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to.
- qersist3nce 3y ago
  Many years ago, I read a comment on Slashdot saying "the fact of a programming language having a "code of conduct" makes it ripe for everlasting drama and politics." It made sense then and it makes sense now.
  - DanHulton 3y ago
    Every community has a code of conduct, it's just that some of them are explicit about it.
    - qersist3nce 3y ago
      Would the Rust foundation be ok with SQLite CoC? or a software project with a CoC in compliance with Uganda laws?
    - 1letterunixname 3y ago
      The fascist part of it is forcing people to use them and threatening them when they don't understand the need to address a non-problem with terminology, duties, and responsibilities they don't agree with.
  - alkonaut 3y ago
    The reason slashdot is no longer relevant as the go-to tech discussion site is just because everyone who loves hating on "modern" things like CoC stayed, and everyone else left. These days it would be more strange to see a major project NOT have a CoC than seeing one. There is drama and politics in any large org whether or not there is a CoC or not.
    - qersist3nce 3y ago
      Slashdot was sold to another media company which had other priorities. Are you aware of its "redesign" drama strictly followed by that same new leadership? Many users left then and there.
      - alkonaut 3y ago
        I left a long time ago. I think around the same time as CmdrTaco. But the place was basically just tech Luddites and Microsoft bashing so it became a bit repetitive. Also: HN.
      - jq-r 3y ago
        Slashdot is a good example how a vastly unpopular redesign to make the site more "modern" can bring the whole business down. It's not even the bad redesign per se; it's sticking to it, and not reversing on it. A real shame in my opinion as I think that auto-moderation system is the best I've seen.
        KerrAvon 3y ago
        It was ridiculously easy to game the Slashdot moderation system. You knew what topics would get upvoted -- positive about Linux, negative about something like SCO during the lawsuit period. It was not difficult to accumulate karma.
        jq-r 3y ago
        I'm not sure if that was the fault of moderation system. This is more of an echo chamber effect which exists everywhere where there are humans involved. Not sure if technology can change that.
  - insanitybit 3y ago
    Except that most languages have significant amounts of drama. Rust drama is just more interesting to people because it's newer.
- fredsmith219 3y ago
  Bingo. All the drama has succeeded in doing is removing Rust as a possible language for my next project.
- porcoda 3y ago
  > I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to. Same. I want to use it because technically it's the right choice for a few projects, but when I talk to people in my organization I still label it as "too immature and volatile to adopt today, but worth watching". I was hoping the adoption by Linux and Microsoft would be the forcing factor to stabilize it, but the governance aspect still seems chaotic. I'll keep watching and hopefully it calms down such that adopting it won't be a risk. Or maybe the good parts will just get adopted by a more stable (w.r.t. governance and standardization) language.
  - insanitybit 3y ago
    Rust is pretty stable and clearly past the point of being immature and volatile. A few issues that the internet has blown up lately doesn't change that.
    - jen20 3y ago
      Indeed, by criteria of community drama, .NET is also too immature for use. See [1], as the conclusion of that. [1]: https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/40 https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/40
- pie_flavor 3y ago
  You can find no trace of childish bickering in the language, tools, libraries, or documentation. I'm not sure why people doing silly things off in the distance would bias you against using Rust, the use of which would not involve those people ever.
  - silisili 3y ago
    While I think your statement is true, a few reasons: 1 - I will inevitably end up on some mailing list or forums when researching libraries, correct way to do things, etc, where such people interact. 2 - As 'governors' of the language, how can I trust them to make sound investments in the future? I don't want to just learn a language and tooling as a one off. 3 - I don't want to support organizations that act this way, even if the language were perfect.
    - pie_flavor 3y ago
      1) This is an accurate complaint. By my estimation (on the official discord) they interact in such a way for an amortized three of the 1440 minutes in the day. 2) The language is pretty great. Further serious investment is going to be primarily in the third-party libraries department. 3) You need make no contributions, financial or otherwise. I am probably a net drain on the foundation's resources.
coffeeblack 3y ago
Forking is an essential feature in OSS, its what OSS is all about.
- agilob 3y ago
  Yes, because it worked out well for Java.
  - Eldt 3y ago
    Do you mean in spite of?
  - marcinzm 3y ago
    Seems to have worked well enough for OpenBSD, OpenOffice (and then LibreOffice from that), Jenkins, OpenSSH, Apache Server, WordPress, Inkscape, Webkit and Xorg.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    When did Java get forked? The closest case I can think of is the Oracle/Google lawsuit, which 1. Oracle lost, and 2. wouldn't have even been a thing if Google had forked rather than reimplementing.
    - agilob 3y ago
      Microsoft forked Java, introduced Windows only APIs, broke some of interplatform APIs. Changed syntax here and there... was sued by Sun. 1997
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    Hum, I don't get what you are saying. You mean it didn't work well for Oracle when everybody moved to a fork?
- notmypenguin 3y ago
  Except this forks a language and tools, a language whose premise is a single opinionated path to nearly everything, aka the opposite of C++ This drama has already damaged Rust and it needs to be addressed ASAP
Hamuko 3y ago
>All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation. This doesn't create drama surrounding the Rust Foundation, this is drama directly caused by the Rust Foundation.
- hxugufjfjf 3y ago
  Its actually not. The most recent drama was caused by the Rust Project, not the Rust Foundation, which are two completely separate entities. This seems to be a common misunderstanding which is being spread around here, including the top comment to this post.
  - Hamuko 3y ago
    It is. This is not caused by the most recent drama but by the Rust trademark shitshow, which was definitely by the Rust Foundation.
    - hxugufjfjf 3y ago
      You’re right. I mistakenly thought this was a response to the latest drama show.
datadeft 3y ago
Forking a project is creating a drama now? Was it the case when nodejs was forked? https://www.infoworld.com/article/2854642/nodejs-gains-a-new-fork-much-to-joyents-dismay.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2854642/nodejs-gains-a-new...
arp242 3y ago
This, I think, captures the problem quite well; "please don't do this, all it does is create drama!" Maybe so, but the best way to end up with well-intentioned people absolutely hating each other is to never allow the airing of grievances. I'm hugely in favour of kind, empathic, and thoughtful communication, and I don't like the "people yelling at each other"-type of projects to the point I simply don't participate. But part of that is also accepting that sometimes people express themselves in less-than-ideal ways, and allowing for the fact that sometimes conflicts happen, and that some amount of yelling and drama is necessarily for a healthy community (or indeed, most relationships between people) because we're all flawed and emotional beings. Rust took a good idea and pushed it to the extreme, which rarely works out well.
somenameforme 3y ago
I don't see how one could describe this as immature. Immature would seem to be just complaining endlessly, memeing, or otherwise being immature. Instead, they're unhappy with the direction of Mozilla/Rust, and found a perfectly good solution to the problem. That's awesome. This seems like one of the many benefits of truly open source software. You can fork not only to change code, but also culture.
jntvjnvutnuvt 3y ago
The Rust Foundation thinks it's okay to sue you for altering its logo. That is nuts.
WuxiFingerHold 3y ago
The ongoing drama emerging from the leadership / foundation causes real damage to the language. I'm not sure if I like this move of forking Rust, but something has to change. And the change must be as visible as the drama to help Rust regain the lost reputation.

silisili 3y ago

> All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation. They are doing a fantastic job of creating drama all by themselves. I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to.

qersist3nce 3y ago
Many years ago, I read a comment on Slashdot saying "the fact of a programming language having a "code of conduct" makes it ripe for everlasting drama and politics." It made sense then and it makes sense now.
- DanHulton 3y ago
  Every community has a code of conduct, it's just that some of them are explicit about it.
  - qersist3nce 3y ago
    Would the Rust foundation be ok with SQLite CoC? or a software project with a CoC in compliance with Uganda laws?
  - 1letterunixname 3y ago
    The fascist part of it is forcing people to use them and threatening them when they don't understand the need to address a non-problem with terminology, duties, and responsibilities they don't agree with.
- alkonaut 3y ago
  The reason slashdot is no longer relevant as the go-to tech discussion site is just because everyone who loves hating on "modern" things like CoC stayed, and everyone else left. These days it would be more strange to see a major project NOT have a CoC than seeing one. There is drama and politics in any large org whether or not there is a CoC or not.
  - qersist3nce 3y ago
    Slashdot was sold to another media company which had other priorities. Are you aware of its "redesign" drama strictly followed by that same new leadership? Many users left then and there.
    - alkonaut 3y ago
      I left a long time ago. I think around the same time as CmdrTaco. But the place was basically just tech Luddites and Microsoft bashing so it became a bit repetitive. Also: HN.
    - jq-r 3y ago
      Slashdot is a good example how a vastly unpopular redesign to make the site more "modern" can bring the whole business down. It's not even the bad redesign per se; it's sticking to it, and not reversing on it. A real shame in my opinion as I think that auto-moderation system is the best I've seen.
      - KerrAvon 3y ago
        It was ridiculously easy to game the Slashdot moderation system. You knew what topics would get upvoted -- positive about Linux, negative about something like SCO during the lawsuit period. It was not difficult to accumulate karma.
        jq-r 3y ago
        I'm not sure if that was the fault of moderation system. This is more of an echo chamber effect which exists everywhere where there are humans involved. Not sure if technology can change that.
- insanitybit 3y ago
  Except that most languages have significant amounts of drama. Rust drama is just more interesting to people because it's newer.
fredsmith219 3y ago
Bingo. All the drama has succeeded in doing is removing Rust as a possible language for my next project.
porcoda 3y ago
> I don't use Rust, but the constant childish bickering has turned me away from even caring to. Same. I want to use it because technically it's the right choice for a few projects, but when I talk to people in my organization I still label it as "too immature and volatile to adopt today, but worth watching". I was hoping the adoption by Linux and Microsoft would be the forcing factor to stabilize it, but the governance aspect still seems chaotic. I'll keep watching and hopefully it calms down such that adopting it won't be a risk. Or maybe the good parts will just get adopted by a more stable (w.r.t. governance and standardization) language.
- insanitybit 3y ago
  Rust is pretty stable and clearly past the point of being immature and volatile. A few issues that the internet has blown up lately doesn't change that.
  - jen20 3y ago
    Indeed, by criteria of community drama, .NET is also too immature for use. See [1], as the conclusion of that. [1]: https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/40 https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/40
pie_flavor 3y ago
You can find no trace of childish bickering in the language, tools, libraries, or documentation. I'm not sure why people doing silly things off in the distance would bias you against using Rust, the use of which would not involve those people ever.
- silisili 3y ago
  While I think your statement is true, a few reasons: 1 - I will inevitably end up on some mailing list or forums when researching libraries, correct way to do things, etc, where such people interact. 2 - As 'governors' of the language, how can I trust them to make sound investments in the future? I don't want to just learn a language and tooling as a one off. 3 - I don't want to support organizations that act this way, even if the language were perfect.
  - pie_flavor 3y ago
    1) This is an accurate complaint. By my estimation (on the official discord) they interact in such a way for an amortized three of the 1440 minutes in the day. 2) The language is pretty great. Further serious investment is going to be primarily in the third-party libraries department. 3) You need make no contributions, financial or otherwise. I am probably a net drain on the foundation's resources.

coffeeblack 3y ago

Forking is an essential feature in OSS, its what OSS is all about.

agilob 3y ago
Yes, because it worked out well for Java.
- Eldt 3y ago
  Do you mean in spite of?
- marcinzm 3y ago
  Seems to have worked well enough for OpenBSD, OpenOffice (and then LibreOffice from that), Jenkins, OpenSSH, Apache Server, WordPress, Inkscape, Webkit and Xorg.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  When did Java get forked? The closest case I can think of is the Oracle/Google lawsuit, which 1. Oracle lost, and 2. wouldn't have even been a thing if Google had forked rather than reimplementing.
  - agilob 3y ago
    Microsoft forked Java, introduced Windows only APIs, broke some of interplatform APIs. Changed syntax here and there... was sued by Sun. 1997
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  Hum, I don't get what you are saying. You mean it didn't work well for Oracle when everybody moved to a fork?
notmypenguin 3y ago
Except this forks a language and tools, a language whose premise is a single opinionated path to nearly everything, aka the opposite of C++ This drama has already damaged Rust and it needs to be addressed ASAP

Hamuko 3y ago

>All this does is creating unnecessary drama surrounding the Rust foundation. This doesn't create drama surrounding the Rust Foundation, this is drama directly caused by the Rust Foundation.

hxugufjfjf 3y ago
Its actually not. The most recent drama was caused by the Rust Project, not the Rust Foundation, which are two completely separate entities. This seems to be a common misunderstanding which is being spread around here, including the top comment to this post.
- Hamuko 3y ago
  It is. This is not caused by the most recent drama but by the Rust trademark shitshow, which was definitely by the Rust Foundation.
  - hxugufjfjf 3y ago
    You’re right. I mistakenly thought this was a response to the latest drama show.

datadeft 3y ago

Forking a project is creating a drama now? Was it the case when nodejs was forked? https://www.infoworld.com/article/2854642/nodejs-gains-a-new-fork-much-to-joyents-dismay.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2854642/nodejs-gains-a-new...

arp242 3y ago

This, I think, captures the problem quite well; "please don't do this, all it does is create drama!" Maybe so, but the best way to end up with well-intentioned people absolutely hating each other is to never allow the airing of grievances. I'm hugely in favour of kind, empathic, and thoughtful communication, and I don't like the "people yelling at each other"-type of projects to the point I simply don't participate. But part of that is also accepting that sometimes people express themselves in less-than-ideal ways, and allowing for the fact that sometimes conflicts happen, and that some amount of yelling and drama is necessarily for a healthy community (or indeed, most relationships between people) because we're all flawed and emotional beings. Rust took a good idea and pushed it to the extreme, which rarely works out well.

somenameforme 3y ago

I don't see how one could describe this as immature. Immature would seem to be just complaining endlessly, memeing, or otherwise being immature. Instead, they're unhappy with the direction of Mozilla/Rust, and found a perfectly good solution to the problem. That's awesome. This seems like one of the many benefits of truly open source software. You can fork not only to change code, but also culture.

jntvjnvutnuvt 3y ago

The Rust Foundation thinks it's okay to sue you for altering its logo. That is nuts.

WuxiFingerHold 3y ago

The ongoing drama emerging from the leadership / foundation causes real damage to the language. I'm not sure if I like this move of forking Rust, but something has to change. And the change must be as visible as the drama to help Rust regain the lost reputation.