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Cash is great. Can't be tracked, credit card companies don't get to discriminate against the poor and create negative feedback loop traps that they can't out of

by shishy 3y ago

Cash is great. Can't be tracked, credit card companies don't get to discriminate against the poor and create negative feedback loop traps that they can't out of, it's easier to be financially responsible with it. Bit unfortunate too that paying with cash just adds a tax onto the poor since the fees are basically priced into goods sold at stores, typically regardless of whether or not cash is used. But yeah, nice to have the option to use both! I also know that credit cards have their advantages, but what are the main benefits of going fully cashless (at the individual and systemic level)? Is it mostly crime related shenanigans?

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> Is it mostly crime related shenanigans? Not having to carry a wallet anymore. Never going to the ATM. No need to pocket loose change. Quicker checkout times.
- Animatronio 3y ago
  Are these really inconveniences? Most of the times I've had trouble paying for stuff were usually at supermarkets or gas stations where the credit card reader would refuse to acknowledge my card. Swiping/inserting/touching, not even cursing worked so without cash on hand I'd have had to surrender my ID to the clerk, take a cab to the closest ATM and return with cash.
  - mrtranscendence 3y ago
    I was an early adopter of (debit) card only, using it for everything in 1999. Your experience has never happened to me, as far as I recall. I don’t think I’ve ever had to go to an atm because the reader didn’t work.
    - Animatronio 3y ago
      Well, it happened to me just the other day - said it cannot read the card or something like that (even though I had used it less than 15 minutes earlier in another shop). There was already a queue behind me so I forked $40 for gas and went on my way.
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Where do you live that you just don’t pay with a card at the gas pump? I’m guessing not in the USA?
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      The main reason I carry multiple cards, and Cash was because my debit card was used for fraud once, which shut down my card, and it took several days to get a new one. Now days they can print you a new card in real time at the branch, but still I will never not have cash, and not have a backup card I also NEVER use by debit card for anything other than ATM now, credit cards and pay it off every month... I dont even carry my debit card anymore, it is locked in the safe, and a bring it out when I need to get more cash.
  - hhh 3y ago
    Yes. I cannot stand cash, I hate carrying it, I hate coins, I don’t want to keep up with it. I leave my house with nothing but my phone and I’m good. I don’t have a wallet, and I don’t want one. I want efficient and secure digital currency, with easy interfaces between digital wallets. I pay for my lawn care via Cash App, most of the other small businesses have Square or something similar. If I need anonymous currency, I will convert to crypto and then convert once or twice more across different coins. It’s good enough for my use.
    - bornfreddy 3y ago
      Curious, do you use a tumbler or distributed exchange (not sure if this is the right term)? I always treated crypto as not-at-all-anonymous, so I'm curious how to achieve cash level of privacy with crypto. Any tips?
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    I've been using cards nearly exclusively my entire adult life, and I can only think of one time that my card had an issue, and it turned out my whole bank was down for ~1 hour. Inconvenient, but I can think of more times I've forgotten to have enough cash with me, and I barely use cash at all now. In the UK and Australia where I normally am, card infrastructure is just so entirely universal and reliable that it's not even worth considering.
    - red-iron-pine 3y ago
      I'm in Canada and the US, but same story. Still carry $40 on me just in case I need the cash but 99% of my transactions in-person are card.
      - danpalmer 3y ago
        Yeah when I first moved to London after uni I used to carry ~£20, but about 6 years ago I naturally stopped using or replenishing it and ended up never having cash in my wallet. Now I rarely even have a wallet on me, even when abroad.
    - TrueSlacker0 3y ago
      Im in the us and have had at least 3 times in the last year that I needed cash due to credit card systems "being down" be it from internet outage or actual issues. Twice while trying to get gas for the vehicle.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I don’t use my physical credit card much anymore. Just my watch which is connected to ApplePay which is linked to a credit card. Those problems do exist, I usually just go somewhere else if their card/payment reader is down.
- feyes 3y ago
  Points or rebates too.
  - RulerOf 3y ago
    I'd prefer not to spend 5% to get 2% back.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    In my case, that wasn’t a point at all. The added security of CC is also useful, but I would have gone cashless even if it was just debit.
- lisasays 3y ago
  Not having to carry a wallet anymore. And when we inevitably leave our card somewhere and we need to get home? Or it's blocked for some random reason? Nevermind the services that just don't take cash, or the fact that their card reader might be down, etc. Doesn't seem tenable to leave the house without at least some cash in a back pocket somewhere.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I barely ever use my card, so dropping it is less likely. It’s just a backup in case the payment terminal doesn’t support NFC. If their card reader is down, I just go somewhere else. If it’s a restaurant, well, that’s their problem if they didn’t warn me before hand (but it’s never happened before). A lot of people (esp under 30) these days are running around without any cash at all. Pickpockets and muggers, or even just panhandlers, have been suffering as a result. I do have some cash in my car I think. I put it there a few years ago for emergencies. I haven’t touched it since then. If I really need cash for something that I can’t get somewhere else, like a visa from the Japanese consulate, I go to the bank and withdraw cash. It’s a weird request for tellers, but I only do it once every two years or so. I’ve forgotten the pin to my ATM card.
  - shortcake27 3y ago
    > And when we inevitably leave our card somewhere and we need to get home? How is this different to cash? I also have Apple pay on my phone and watch. > Or it's blocked for some random reason I have a couple cards. Also, I've been cashless for 10 years across three countries and this has never happened. > Nevermind the services that just don't take cash Assume you mean card. Not a problem in many countries including Australia, New Zealand, and the UK. I travel a lot, remote, even random middle-of-nowhere merchants accept card. From a business point of view, cash-only makes zero sense. Why would a business turn away people who want to give them money? > or the fact that their card reader might be down Never had it happen. A couple of times the payment network has been down, and these terminals seem capable of making the transaction offline and syncing later. If you're from a country where any of these are legitimate concerns for you, it doesn't mean cashless is bad - it means the systems are bad. And they can be fixed, again, AU, NZ, and UK (and more, I'm sure) are proof. Haven't carried cash for 10 years and it doesn't occupy a single thought.
incone123 3y ago
There is a cost to handling cash too. Don't know how it compares to cards but with the latter you don't need to have fleets of armored trucks to move money around and robbers can only steal stock.
- raincom 3y ago
  The cost is not so much about paying armored trucks, but most banks don't want to deal with small businesses that deal with cash.
  - aardvark179 3y ago
    In the UK the banks are happy to deal with businesses paying cash, but there are fees, and if your holding cash on premises then you’ll need insurance, which means you’ll need a safe… The reason supermarkets offered cash back was that this allowed them to massively reduce the amount of cash held on site and thus reduce their insurance costs.
    - raincom 3y ago
      Large chains, large businesses have no problems accepting cash, nor do they have problems depositing cash with banks. Even if a mega bank, say, Chase/Bank of America in the states, doesn't want to deal with cash deposits from a large retailer, the latter can indirectly 'own' a credit union or another small bank that accepts cash deposits, as this bank can still follow AML regulations. Big banks consider cash deposits/withdrawals and money order deposits to be a big headache, and also back office costs for enforcing AML can be reduced by not dealing with cash/money orders (in other words, any untraceable monetary instruments).
    - nonethewiser 3y ago
      > The reason supermarkets offered cash back was that this allowed them to massively reduce the amount of cash held on site and thus reduce their insurance costs. But wouldn’t this increase the amount of cash you need on hand to ensure you can make change and now give cash back?
3pt14159 3y ago
> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you the motorcycle and then deposits it straight into his own bank account then yes, this is quite obviously tracked. For more information I suggest getting some books on Terrorist Financing for the new meta. There is a former Canadian Security Intelligence Service lady out there that wrote a whole book on it recently.
- permo-w 3y ago
  are you suggesting that the serial number of every note you withdraw is registered against your account?
  - greyface- 3y ago
    Modern ATM bill acceptors have sensors that can read serial numbers off of bills. I don't know whether it's been publicly stated that this occurs (and don't have any relevant personal knowledge, either), but the capability exists in the field.
    - RulerOf 3y ago
      I'm not sure if I'd be surprised either way. Either they don't track bills because it costs too much money, or they do track bills because they've found a way to monetize the data. I scarcely use ATMs at this point because they won't hand out "large" bills. Inflation will be the real driver of cashless adoption, as the absurd number of $20 bills (and eventually, $100 bills) you need to pay for anything these days makes using cash too difficult for the average person.
  - walterbell 3y ago
    Technology exists. Policy will vary. https://www.amazon.com/NUCOUN-VC-7-Denomination-Counterfeit-Detection/dp/B09J17G7NB https://www.amazon.com/NUCOUN-VC-7-Denomination-Counterfeit-... > Money Counter Machine with CIS Technology: Equipped with one pair 200DPI Contact Image Sensors, scan and detect each counted bill like human eyes.. counts the quantity, reads the denomination and currency type, calculate the total amount at one time pass. Turn on serial number reading function to record serial number and all the counting details can be printed directly or exported to PC , very helpful for money tracking and management.
chmod600 3y ago
"create negative feedback loop traps that they can't out of" Nit: you mean a positive feedback loop: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback
noduerme 3y ago
> what are the main benefits of going fully cashless One piece of advice I got a long time ago, from a family member in politics: Don't put your groceries on a credit card. Especially if you buy junk food or alcohol. Obviously the same goes for bars, tobacco, strip clubs, gun purchases[0], and lots of other perfectly legal things that you might not want being counted up if you ever run for office. At the systemic level, the main benefits of going cashless are: - Being able to track everyone's purchases (for taxation, law enforcement, and in some countries the blackmail of political opposition or assigning "social credit" ratings) - Have realtime, near-total visibility into the movement of money, for economic management and personal profit - Being able to cut off individuals or members of a political movement from the ability to purchase basic necessities, if they fall afoul of the party in power[1] [0] https://www.wlox.com/2022/09/20/gop-ags-call-credit-card-companies-drop-code-track-gun-sales/ https://www.wlox.com/2022/09/20/gop-ags-call-credit-card-com... [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-accounts-freedom-convoy-truckers-2022-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-a... [edit]: I should have also mentioned freedom of movement and association. You cannot buy a plane ticket or a hotel room anymore for cash - even if your bank's ATM allowed you to access enough of your cash in a single day to do so. Cards enable the granular tracking of everyone's movement, whether or not that person chooses to carry a cellphone.
- cipheredStones 3y ago
  > Don't put your groceries on a credit card. ...huh? "Don't use store membership cards that track your specific purchases" is one thing, but in what world does your credit card processor get info about the individual goods on your receipt?
  - smilespray 3y ago
    Pretty sure the data about individual goods is up for sale. Didn't Google start buying this kind of data to match up online purchase intent with real-world purchases?
  - ricksebak 3y ago
    If you apply for a loan, especially a mortgage, the lender could ask to see your outgoing cash flow statements. Which wouldn’t get into receipt-level detail, but could still potentially allow the lender to discriminate against you. A person with habitual transactions at a casino or liquor store could be perceived as high risk and the lender could jack up the interest rate for that person. I have no clue if lenders _actually_ do this, but they could since they do ask for your outgoing transactions.
cschneid 3y ago
Not sure on the fees part of that - cash handling itself is expensive, both for direct reasons, and anti-theft reasons. Anywhere from time spent counting drawers to full-on armored car service. All of that is expensive, and not present when credit cards are used (and conversely, a network fee doesn't exist on cash). I think all payment methods end up with some costs to them.
- hospitalhusband 3y ago
  Chargebacks and processing fees are expensive too.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    Processing fees aren't inherently expensively. They're low in Europe, and high in the US only because they go to rewards programs. You're paying 2% more but getting 2% back. Legislation could easily regulate them to eliminate rewards programs and bring them back down low. Chargebacks are supposed to be expensive because they're a deterrent to businesses acting in ways that will lead customers to attempt chargebacks. And then they usually have an element of manual review which costs $ as well. Chargebacks being expensive is a feature not a bug. And they're an easy consumer protection option that isn't even a possibility with cash.
    - RulerOf 3y ago
      Chargebacks exist because the element of agency in payment is broken in the electronic money systems we've created. When using a card, you don't give merchants your money, you provide them with enough information to take your money away from you. The UX of those two things is similar enough that nobody really cares, until it bites them in the ass, that is.
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        No, chargebacks exist even when you have all of your agency and you paid willingly. If you order something that then arrives broken and the company refuses a return, you can do a chargeback. If you had mailed cash or a check you'd have no recourse except the courts.
Frondo 3y ago
As for can't be tracked, does anyone else remember that website you used to see stamped on dollar bills, WheresGeorge.com? Early internet goofiness, crowd-sourced tracking of cash.
crazygringo 3y ago
Dealing with cash is mainly just super-expensive because it's a massive volume of paper and metal that you have to count and move around every day, and deal with replacing it over time. It's not a big deal for a single individual, but it's a huge deal for businesses. And for banks and for the government. And there's just so much nonsense involved, like a cashier discovering they're $25 short at the end of their shift, and how do you deal with that. Unlike digital transactions, people are constantly making mistakes with cash, which one side or the other is losing out on. And then obviously theft as well -- if there's no cash in a cash register, there's less incentive to hold up convenience store clerks at gunpoint. (You can still steal merchandise, but it's a lot bulkier and harder to handle.)
- fomine3 3y ago
  In addition, fraud by cashier and tax avoidance by owner.
zeroonetwothree 3y ago
Cash has a lot of costs as well. For example it’s easier to steal, it slows down transactions, and it requires a larger payment device and overhead of transferring it to a central location. It’s not at all clear that cashless even with fees is more costly to a business.
dc-programmer 3y ago
At the individual level, the cost of using cash is that you are subsidizing the other consumers who are paying with a credit cards that offers cash-back or other rewards
SergeAx 3y ago
Accepting cash also has its fees for businesses, primarily a cash collection fee made by banks.
__MatrixMan__ 3y ago
Cash pretty much has to be fungibile, it would just be too much work keeping track of the history of each dollar in your wallet. Maybe that's nice because you can pay your taxes with money you made selling drugs. Maybe it's bad because you don't know what kind of activity you're supporting when you accept a stranger's money. It could be that refusing to accept their money makes them unable to set up the mining operation that would poison your drinking water.

by shishy 3y ago

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

> Is it mostly crime related shenanigans? Not having to carry a wallet anymore. Never going to the ATM. No need to pocket loose change. Quicker checkout times.

Animatronio 3y ago
Are these really inconveniences? Most of the times I've had trouble paying for stuff were usually at supermarkets or gas stations where the credit card reader would refuse to acknowledge my card. Swiping/inserting/touching, not even cursing worked so without cash on hand I'd have had to surrender my ID to the clerk, take a cab to the closest ATM and return with cash.
- mrtranscendence 3y ago
  I was an early adopter of (debit) card only, using it for everything in 1999. Your experience has never happened to me, as far as I recall. I don’t think I’ve ever had to go to an atm because the reader didn’t work.
  - Animatronio 3y ago
    Well, it happened to me just the other day - said it cannot read the card or something like that (even though I had used it less than 15 minutes earlier in another shop). There was already a queue behind me so I forked $40 for gas and went on my way.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Where do you live that you just don’t pay with a card at the gas pump? I’m guessing not in the USA?
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    The main reason I carry multiple cards, and Cash was because my debit card was used for fraud once, which shut down my card, and it took several days to get a new one. Now days they can print you a new card in real time at the branch, but still I will never not have cash, and not have a backup card I also NEVER use by debit card for anything other than ATM now, credit cards and pay it off every month... I dont even carry my debit card anymore, it is locked in the safe, and a bring it out when I need to get more cash.
- hhh 3y ago
  Yes. I cannot stand cash, I hate carrying it, I hate coins, I don’t want to keep up with it. I leave my house with nothing but my phone and I’m good. I don’t have a wallet, and I don’t want one. I want efficient and secure digital currency, with easy interfaces between digital wallets. I pay for my lawn care via Cash App, most of the other small businesses have Square or something similar. If I need anonymous currency, I will convert to crypto and then convert once or twice more across different coins. It’s good enough for my use.
  - bornfreddy 3y ago
    Curious, do you use a tumbler or distributed exchange (not sure if this is the right term)? I always treated crypto as not-at-all-anonymous, so I'm curious how to achieve cash level of privacy with crypto. Any tips?
- danpalmer 3y ago
  I've been using cards nearly exclusively my entire adult life, and I can only think of one time that my card had an issue, and it turned out my whole bank was down for ~1 hour. Inconvenient, but I can think of more times I've forgotten to have enough cash with me, and I barely use cash at all now. In the UK and Australia where I normally am, card infrastructure is just so entirely universal and reliable that it's not even worth considering.
  - red-iron-pine 3y ago
    I'm in Canada and the US, but same story. Still carry $40 on me just in case I need the cash but 99% of my transactions in-person are card.
    - danpalmer 3y ago
      Yeah when I first moved to London after uni I used to carry ~£20, but about 6 years ago I naturally stopped using or replenishing it and ended up never having cash in my wallet. Now I rarely even have a wallet on me, even when abroad.
  - TrueSlacker0 3y ago
    Im in the us and have had at least 3 times in the last year that I needed cash due to credit card systems "being down" be it from internet outage or actual issues. Twice while trying to get gas for the vehicle.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I don’t use my physical credit card much anymore. Just my watch which is connected to ApplePay which is linked to a credit card. Those problems do exist, I usually just go somewhere else if their card/payment reader is down.
feyes 3y ago
Points or rebates too.
- RulerOf 3y ago
  I'd prefer not to spend 5% to get 2% back.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  In my case, that wasn’t a point at all. The added security of CC is also useful, but I would have gone cashless even if it was just debit.
lisasays 3y ago
Not having to carry a wallet anymore. And when we inevitably leave our card somewhere and we need to get home? Or it's blocked for some random reason? Nevermind the services that just don't take cash, or the fact that their card reader might be down, etc. Doesn't seem tenable to leave the house without at least some cash in a back pocket somewhere.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I barely ever use my card, so dropping it is less likely. It’s just a backup in case the payment terminal doesn’t support NFC. If their card reader is down, I just go somewhere else. If it’s a restaurant, well, that’s their problem if they didn’t warn me before hand (but it’s never happened before). A lot of people (esp under 30) these days are running around without any cash at all. Pickpockets and muggers, or even just panhandlers, have been suffering as a result. I do have some cash in my car I think. I put it there a few years ago for emergencies. I haven’t touched it since then. If I really need cash for something that I can’t get somewhere else, like a visa from the Japanese consulate, I go to the bank and withdraw cash. It’s a weird request for tellers, but I only do it once every two years or so. I’ve forgotten the pin to my ATM card.
- shortcake27 3y ago
  > And when we inevitably leave our card somewhere and we need to get home? How is this different to cash? I also have Apple pay on my phone and watch. > Or it's blocked for some random reason I have a couple cards. Also, I've been cashless for 10 years across three countries and this has never happened. > Nevermind the services that just don't take cash Assume you mean card. Not a problem in many countries including Australia, New Zealand, and the UK. I travel a lot, remote, even random middle-of-nowhere merchants accept card. From a business point of view, cash-only makes zero sense. Why would a business turn away people who want to give them money? > or the fact that their card reader might be down Never had it happen. A couple of times the payment network has been down, and these terminals seem capable of making the transaction offline and syncing later. If you're from a country where any of these are legitimate concerns for you, it doesn't mean cashless is bad - it means the systems are bad. And they can be fixed, again, AU, NZ, and UK (and more, I'm sure) are proof. Haven't carried cash for 10 years and it doesn't occupy a single thought.

incone123 3y ago

There is a cost to handling cash too. Don't know how it compares to cards but with the latter you don't need to have fleets of armored trucks to move money around and robbers can only steal stock.

raincom 3y ago
The cost is not so much about paying armored trucks, but most banks don't want to deal with small businesses that deal with cash.
- aardvark179 3y ago
  In the UK the banks are happy to deal with businesses paying cash, but there are fees, and if your holding cash on premises then you’ll need insurance, which means you’ll need a safe… The reason supermarkets offered cash back was that this allowed them to massively reduce the amount of cash held on site and thus reduce their insurance costs.
  - raincom 3y ago
    Large chains, large businesses have no problems accepting cash, nor do they have problems depositing cash with banks. Even if a mega bank, say, Chase/Bank of America in the states, doesn't want to deal with cash deposits from a large retailer, the latter can indirectly 'own' a credit union or another small bank that accepts cash deposits, as this bank can still follow AML regulations. Big banks consider cash deposits/withdrawals and money order deposits to be a big headache, and also back office costs for enforcing AML can be reduced by not dealing with cash/money orders (in other words, any untraceable monetary instruments).
  - nonethewiser 3y ago
    > The reason supermarkets offered cash back was that this allowed them to massively reduce the amount of cash held on site and thus reduce their insurance costs. But wouldn’t this increase the amount of cash you need on hand to ensure you can make change and now give cash back?

3pt14159 3y ago

> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you the motorcycle and then deposits it straight into his own bank account then yes, this is quite obviously tracked. For more information I suggest getting some books on Terrorist Financing for the new meta. There is a former Canadian Security Intelligence Service lady out there that wrote a whole book on it recently.

permo-w 3y ago
are you suggesting that the serial number of every note you withdraw is registered against your account?
- greyface- 3y ago
  Modern ATM bill acceptors have sensors that can read serial numbers off of bills. I don't know whether it's been publicly stated that this occurs (and don't have any relevant personal knowledge, either), but the capability exists in the field.
  - RulerOf 3y ago
    I'm not sure if I'd be surprised either way. Either they don't track bills because it costs too much money, or they do track bills because they've found a way to monetize the data. I scarcely use ATMs at this point because they won't hand out "large" bills. Inflation will be the real driver of cashless adoption, as the absurd number of $20 bills (and eventually, $100 bills) you need to pay for anything these days makes using cash too difficult for the average person.
- walterbell 3y ago
  Technology exists. Policy will vary. https://www.amazon.com/NUCOUN-VC-7-Denomination-Counterfeit-Detection/dp/B09J17G7NB https://www.amazon.com/NUCOUN-VC-7-Denomination-Counterfeit-... > Money Counter Machine with CIS Technology: Equipped with one pair 200DPI Contact Image Sensors, scan and detect each counted bill like human eyes.. counts the quantity, reads the denomination and currency type, calculate the total amount at one time pass. Turn on serial number reading function to record serial number and all the counting details can be printed directly or exported to PC , very helpful for money tracking and management.

chmod600 3y ago

"create negative feedback loop traps that they can't out of" Nit: you mean a positive feedback loop: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback

noduerme 3y ago

> what are the main benefits of going fully cashless One piece of advice I got a long time ago, from a family member in politics: Don't put your groceries on a credit card. Especially if you buy junk food or alcohol. Obviously the same goes for bars, tobacco, strip clubs, gun purchases[0], and lots of other perfectly legal things that you might not want being counted up if you ever run for office. At the systemic level, the main benefits of going cashless are: - Being able to track everyone's purchases (for taxation, law enforcement, and in some countries the blackmail of political opposition or assigning "social credit" ratings) - Have realtime, near-total visibility into the movement of money, for economic management and personal profit - Being able to cut off individuals or members of a political movement from the ability to purchase basic necessities, if they fall afoul of the party in power[1] [0] https://www.wlox.com/2022/09/20/gop-ags-call-credit-card-companies-drop-code-track-gun-sales/ https://www.wlox.com/2022/09/20/gop-ags-call-credit-card-com... [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-accounts-freedom-convoy-truckers-2022-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/trudeau-canada-freeze-bank-a... [edit]: I should have also mentioned freedom of movement and association. You cannot buy a plane ticket or a hotel room anymore for cash - even if your bank's ATM allowed you to access enough of your cash in a single day to do so. Cards enable the granular tracking of everyone's movement, whether or not that person chooses to carry a cellphone.

cipheredStones 3y ago
> Don't put your groceries on a credit card. ...huh? "Don't use store membership cards that track your specific purchases" is one thing, but in what world does your credit card processor get info about the individual goods on your receipt?
- smilespray 3y ago
  Pretty sure the data about individual goods is up for sale. Didn't Google start buying this kind of data to match up online purchase intent with real-world purchases?
- ricksebak 3y ago
  If you apply for a loan, especially a mortgage, the lender could ask to see your outgoing cash flow statements. Which wouldn’t get into receipt-level detail, but could still potentially allow the lender to discriminate against you. A person with habitual transactions at a casino or liquor store could be perceived as high risk and the lender could jack up the interest rate for that person. I have no clue if lenders _actually_ do this, but they could since they do ask for your outgoing transactions.

cschneid 3y ago

Not sure on the fees part of that - cash handling itself is expensive, both for direct reasons, and anti-theft reasons. Anywhere from time spent counting drawers to full-on armored car service. All of that is expensive, and not present when credit cards are used (and conversely, a network fee doesn't exist on cash). I think all payment methods end up with some costs to them.

hospitalhusband 3y ago
Chargebacks and processing fees are expensive too.
- crazygringo 3y ago
  Processing fees aren't inherently expensively. They're low in Europe, and high in the US only because they go to rewards programs. You're paying 2% more but getting 2% back. Legislation could easily regulate them to eliminate rewards programs and bring them back down low. Chargebacks are supposed to be expensive because they're a deterrent to businesses acting in ways that will lead customers to attempt chargebacks. And then they usually have an element of manual review which costs $ as well. Chargebacks being expensive is a feature not a bug. And they're an easy consumer protection option that isn't even a possibility with cash.
  - RulerOf 3y ago
    Chargebacks exist because the element of agency in payment is broken in the electronic money systems we've created. When using a card, you don't give merchants your money, you provide them with enough information to take your money away from you. The UX of those two things is similar enough that nobody really cares, until it bites them in the ass, that is.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      No, chargebacks exist even when you have all of your agency and you paid willingly. If you order something that then arrives broken and the company refuses a return, you can do a chargeback. If you had mailed cash or a check you'd have no recourse except the courts.

Frondo 3y ago

As for can't be tracked, does anyone else remember that website you used to see stamped on dollar bills, WheresGeorge.com? Early internet goofiness, crowd-sourced tracking of cash.

crazygringo 3y ago

Dealing with cash is mainly just super-expensive because it's a massive volume of paper and metal that you have to count and move around every day, and deal with replacing it over time. It's not a big deal for a single individual, but it's a huge deal for businesses. And for banks and for the government. And there's just so much nonsense involved, like a cashier discovering they're $25 short at the end of their shift, and how do you deal with that. Unlike digital transactions, people are constantly making mistakes with cash, which one side or the other is losing out on. And then obviously theft as well -- if there's no cash in a cash register, there's less incentive to hold up convenience store clerks at gunpoint. (You can still steal merchandise, but it's a lot bulkier and harder to handle.)

fomine3 3y ago
In addition, fraud by cashier and tax avoidance by owner.

zeroonetwothree 3y ago

Cash has a lot of costs as well. For example it’s easier to steal, it slows down transactions, and it requires a larger payment device and overhead of transferring it to a central location. It’s not at all clear that cashless even with fees is more costly to a business.

dc-programmer 3y ago

At the individual level, the cost of using cash is that you are subsidizing the other consumers who are paying with a credit cards that offers cash-back or other rewards

SergeAx 3y ago

Accepting cash also has its fees for businesses, primarily a cash collection fee made by banks.

__MatrixMan__ 3y ago

Cash pretty much has to be fungibile, it would just be too much work keeping track of the history of each dollar in your wallet. Maybe that's nice because you can pay your taxes with money you made selling drugs. Maybe it's bad because you don't know what kind of activity you're supporting when you accept a stranger's money. It could be that refusing to accept their money makes them unable to set up the mining operation that would poison your drinking water.