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> somebody from inside the Rust Project, but not with the consensus of all leadership, tried to downgrade my talk > as evidenced by much of the public statemen
by slimsag 3y ago
> somebody from inside the Rust Project, but not with the consensus of all leadership, tried to downgrade my talk
> as evidenced by much of the public statements from existing, ex, and now-ex Rust Project members, the decision to unilaterally downgrade was not known to many of them until they read my post.
> Downgrading the keynote was NEVER voted on like inviting me to do the keynote in the first place.
If this is true, some mystical creature behind the scenes is pulling the strings somehow, and keeping in mind the whole Rust Foundation vs. Rust Project debacles of the past, and the fact that JT (who was the person proposing a new leadership model RFC for Rust...)... then I am kind of left with the question of when, not if, we will see a major community fork of Rust
What a mess. I wish people could just focus on the tech and drop their egos and all the drama.
- EscapeFromNY 3y ago> I am kind of left with the question of when, not if, we will see a major community fork of Rust It's already happened. https://crablang.org/ https://crablang.org/ At first I thought it was a joke, but now I'm not so sure
- hxugufjfjf 3y agoIt’s a joke. Nobody would fork an entire programming language and maintain it because they thought someone was wrong on The Internet.
- svaha1728 3y agoPython 2. Don’t make me print(“”) when I can print “”
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- gpm 3y agoYou sure about that? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27309412/what-is-the-difference-between-node-js-and-io-js https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27309412/what-is-the-dif...
- hxugufjfjf 3y agoI stand corrected.
- apgwoz 3y agoBut, a few months later io.js merged back with node. So, “it worked,” but was a giant mess.
- IshKebab 3y agoThere's also libav which forked from ffmpeg and lasted for 7 years. And Gitea which forked from Gogs and it's still going. There are loads of forks that happen due to disagreements in organisation.
- saghm 3y agoIt's also happened with operating systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DragonFly_BSD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DragonFly_BSD > Dillon started DragonFly in the belief that the techniques adopted for threading and symmetric multiprocessing in FreeBSD 5 would lead to poor performance and maintenance problems. He sought to correct these anticipated problems within the FreeBSD project. Due to conflicts with other FreeBSD developers over the implementation of his ideas, his ability to directly change the codebase was eventually revoked.
- JdeBP 3y agoPeople have forked terminal emulators, desktop environments, and operating systems; so forking a programming language isn't that inconceivable. (-:
- throwawaymaths 3y ago> forking a programming language isn't that inconceivable. Do SQL dialects in Databases count? mariadb
- coldtea 3y agoWhat if that "wrong person" had undue influence on the project?
- marcosdumay 3y agoIf I remember it right, the word "fork" was created to describe the GCC thing.
- pm215 3y agoThe wikipedia article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(software_development) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_(software_development) has a link to a usenet post from 1995 that uses 'fork' to describe XEmacs; so that predates the gcc/egcs split by a couple of years.
- rst 3y agoProjects have forked over leadership issues plenty of times before; there have been cases where both parts of the fork stuck around (NetBSD/FreeBSD), and at least a couple where the projects' former leadership effectively gave up and handed the reins to the fork (egcs, a gcc fork which became the official gcc in 1999, after the FSF belatedly realized that their official version was getting stagnant, and X.org, which displaced XFree86 without a rename after users of the latter all abandoned it).
- sbierwagen 3y agoAlso openoffice/libreoffice, bitcoin cash from bitcoin, etc.
- arp242 3y ago> NetBSD/FreeBSD Bit of a nitpick, but I think you meant NetBSD/OpenBSD? AFAIK both FreeBSD and NetBSD independently continued the abandoned 386BSD project, but there was never any strong relation between the two projects (they did share code later on). OpenBSD did split from NetBSD, after Theo de Raadt was removed. Other examples: FreeBSD/DragonFlyBSD, Vim/NeoVim, Mplayer/mpv, (Open)Solaris/illumos, MySQL/MariaDB, probably some more.
- smitty1e 3y agoXEmacs
- omoikane 3y agoLooks like crablang.org is relatively new (created on 2023-04-11), but predates the current drama. I wonder what happened in April?
- zamalek 3y agoThe trademark thing, it served as a wake-up call about the current structure of everything Rust.
- red-iron-pine 3y agothe fractures were probably there long before april, that's just when someone had an especially bad day and said 'fuck it'
- hgdfhgfdhgdf 3y ago[flagged]
- sho_hn 3y agoThis is far too breathless. From what I was able to read and understand, there was a concern that the keynote placement could be seen as approving of a particular technical direction. This concern itself isn't super crazy to me; this is why you will see many other event program committees avoid placing technical talks advocating for a particular project direction in keynote slots. Obviously the way that an individual (apparently) chose to go about addressing this concern was procedurally crappy, and overall a much better way here would have been to work with the talk author to make sure the talk or the event would frame things right after the keynote had already been decided, and given that there was no vote to change that decision. But that doesn't mean the work is killed, or that the entire leadership group is bad, or that the organization can't learn from this now very public mistake and adopt better policies.
- biorach 3y agoThanks for the clear-headed and undramatic summary. This whole discussion has been full of emotional over-reaction
- peteradio 3y agoI think the problem is obviously that there is a sub-group that is making decisions that were supposed to be made in committee. If there is some sub-group operating this way for this instance then what does it mean at large for the language? Is the democratic process a complete sham etc
- dmurray 3y agoIt's still a good language and the most attractive one for many purposes. Most people don't choose Java or C++ because they are thrilled by the stewardship of Oracle or JTC1/SC22/WG21, but because it's the right tool for the job. Not saying Rust has outgrown its need for a community, but a lot of people would pick Rust over C++ even if they were guaranteed never to get another language update for it.
- belter 3y agoYes, please split. One group keeping it as done language that it is. Hopefully all others, trying to transform it a type of new C++ style No feature left behind hyper-complex language - can take that train.
- zerr 3y agoSo do we have C-replacement vs C++-replacement camps?
- belter 3y agoI think we have a camp of professional developers, who need to understand, work on, and refactor Rust based code daily...And a camp of academia programming language researchers, who would love to keep adding their favorite features to Rust. We already have a Rube Goldberg machine, it's C++
- freitasm 3y agoSomente knows more about this. Just look at this reply https://hachyderm.io/@sgrif/110447363438183593 https://hachyderm.io/@sgrif/110447363438183593
- cookieperson 3y agoThe people who seek out these positions are almost always doing it for their egos. If I had to guess based on my life experience the ones jumping ship are in the other camp.