12 ms·

Dolphin on Steam Indefinitely Postponed

373 points by Lammy 3y ago

whateveracct 3y ago
Complete abuse of the DMCA
- SLWW 3y ago
  It is Nintendo after all
- Jasper_ 3y ago
  The DMCA was for the private encryption keys included directly inside Dolphin source code [0]. I am not defending the DMCA at all, I think it's a shit law, but let's be clear, I can't think of a clearer example of a valid DMCA violation. It is circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a protected work [1]. Defending it by saying the work is non-infringing is fighting a very losing battle, you would have to attack the DMCA at its core in order to come out on top here. [0] https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/master/Source/Core/Core/IOS/IOSC.cpp#L575-L579 https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/master/Source/Co... [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201
  - kevingadd 3y ago
    Are you sure those are Nintendo AES keys? The comments above suggest they're not: // Dolphin does not use the same "default" values as IOS does, as we do not emulate unblown // scenario. If they're Nintendo's keys, why would they DMCA a Steam page but not a GitHub repository that's distributing the keys?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Jasper_ 3y ago
      Yes, they are Nintendo's private keys. I believe the comment is referring to the early factory programming stage of the console, though I'm not 100% sure. PCGamer.com also confirmed the DMCA notice says it's about encryption keys [0] > The DCMA letter sent to Valve cites the anti-circumvention language of the DMCA and specifically claims that "the Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully 'circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under' the Copyright Act." > If they're Nintendo's keys, why would they DMCA a Steam page but not a GitHub repository that's distributing the keys? Because Nintendo's legal department is not dumb and makes very specific takedown requests that they know they can win, as opposed to taking down more gray-area things like source code. Grabbing an emulator from dolphin-emu.org or GitHub is not the same thing as grabbing an emulator from a well-moderated public storefront where a good number of your third-party partners also publish their games. Nintendo does not publish their games on Steam as of right now, but for an analogy, imagine how happy Sony would be if a PS4 emulator showed up on Steam recommended right next to their other PC games. This was always playing with fire. [0] https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/ https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-...
      - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
        Doesn't the DMCA's interoperability exception cover this? (1)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title. (2)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title. (3)The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.
    - skhr0680 3y ago
      you can extract that exact key from a real Wii using a pair of tweezers > If they're Nintendo's keys, why would they DMCA a Steam page but not a GitHub repository that's distributing the keys? I don't know
      - anonzzzies 3y ago
        So remove it and have people copy it in when they set up Dolphin. You can find the keys easily and you can get them for your own wii.
        whateveracct 3y ago
        Yeah it feels like republishing with the keys removed will mean this DMCA request is moot
  - userbinator 3y ago
    Maybe we should just let the Streisand Effect take care of it. I still have the infamous 09 F9 11... stuck in my head as a result of that.
    - immibis 3y ago
      Now you can also memorize 0xebe42a225e8593e448d9c5457381aaf7
  - Acrobatic_Road 3y ago
    Are these keys even necessary for emulating games with Dolphin?
    - jeroenhd 3y ago
      In theory you can dump disk images pre-decrypted, but that would make the Steam version of the emulator incompatible with every disk dump tool and personal Wii game archive out there.
      - LocalH 3y ago
        Plus, for preservation's sake, there at least needs to be some attention paid to 1:1 media dumps, as closely as possible.
  - saghm 3y ago
    > It is circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a protected work To be fair, the law is worded so poorly that I'm not sure that _anything_ can be considered a "clear" example of it. How can a measure be "effective" if it can be circumvented? If you're going to define "effective" in any way that includes this, you're going to need to explain why it wouldn't apply equally well to a loading screen message calling "dibs" when the game starts up. It's just as effective up until the point that you circumvent it (by just ignoring it)! I do think that this is the type of thing that's _intended_ to be against this law, but it's hard to take that seriously as an argument that this justifies legal action when the view that laws should be read exactly as written and not "interpreted" for intent is promulgated with such fervor in many political circles.
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      By "effective" it means "that has the effect of"
      - saghm 3y ago
        I don't see how that clarifies anything; what effect does a measure that's been circumvented have, and how does it differ from the effect of a message of "dibs" that some people decide to abide by?
        EMIRELADERO 3y ago
        The law says that nobody shall circumvent a technical protection measure that has the effect of controlling access to a copyrighted work.
        saghm 3y ago
        Okay, so how is my access controlled if I circumvent the measure? And how does that not apply equally well to me just being told in a "technical" way not to access something?
  - asveikau 3y ago
    Maybe you're right, but it seems very strange that a series of bits, that is, data, not code, is a circumvention device. Additionally, it does look like there are carveouts... The anti-circumvention methods need to "effectively control access", which, seems to me as a non lawyer, that if it's very easily broken that's not very effective. (Does DVD CSS still count for this?) The device needs to have no other purpose (homebrew anyone?). There are carveouts for reverse engineering in order to make a compatible product. Anyway, IANAL, but ... it seems to me like this interpretation can be challenged in court? Does anyone know of examples of it being upheld? There was that prosecution of that Bowser guy, I'm guessing he took a plea deal.
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      The "effectively" means that it has the effect of, not whether it does it poorly.
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    If this is going to be Nintendo's 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 (or its 455FE10422CA29C4933F95052B792AB2 as this is far from the first time Nintendo's keys leaked), I doubt the courts would care. Worst case scenario, someone in France can probably get around the problem by launching it on French Steam so people can only get the emulator through one of those throwaway VPNs. VLC managed to avoid censorship from big media companies through "foreign" law. I doubt it's worth the trouble, though.
    - kmeisthax 3y ago
      DMCA 1201 is good law in France. America conditions trade agreements upon countries adopting equivalent language to 1201 in their local law. In the case of France, the EU Copyright Directive has had 1201-equivalent language in it since the early 2000s. Even if it wasn't good law in France, Steam is a US platform, there is no "French Steam". You need something entirely owned and operated by non-US individuals to even have a chance of escaping US jurisdiction. Chinese domestic equivalent services would be your best bet these days, except now you have to deal with China's censorship machine, which makes the censorship[0] of not being able to release encryption keys for old videogames look like nothing. [0] US courts have categorically rejected the argument that copyright infringement is free speech. In fact, they seem to believe the opposite: that artists not being paid in monopoly rights is censorship, and that the 1st Amendment has a sort of ROBOT9000[1] rule where copies aren't speech. The EFF has 1st Amendment challenges to DMCA 1201 specifically but I do not expect them to be successful. [1] An IRC bot operated by XKCD creator Randall Munroe, which was also implemented by moot in 4chan's /r9k/ board. The bot removes speech that has been spoken in the past.
  - tinus_hn 3y ago
    Encryption keys are not an expression, they are more like technological utility. I don’t think they are copyrighted. The DMCA could apply because of the anti-circumvention rules but that’s also kind of doubtful because emulation is fair use. Nevertheless making an emulator for a current console so easily available so anyone can pirate games on release day is unfair to Nintendo and it should surprise no one that they would act.
    - Mindwipe 3y ago
      Fair use is irrelevant to the anti-circumvention provisions (at least unless the Library of Congress explicitly sets out an exception, and they have not for emulation), and the statement that encryption is fair use is significantly more ambiguous than people hope it is (for a start neither of the relevant cases were heard in a high enough court to establish a significant precedent).
- bogwog 3y ago
  The DMCA basically exists to support Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft's anti-consumer and anti-competitive business models. Jailbreaking is "legal" for anything that isn't a game console, under the logic that users don't have a good reason to do it besides piracy. Which is of course complete fucking bullshit, especially since it means that an alternative store can never exist without being violating the DMCA. I hope that the push towards an alternate app store on iOS also brings more attention to this issue. (btw, idk if anything I just mentioned above is relevant to the Dolphin situation)
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    > Which is of course complete fucking bullshit, especially since it means that an alternative store can never exist without being violating the DMCA. I doubt it'll happen, but it would be pretty funny for someone in the EU to try to apply the Digital Markets Act on Nintendo to force them to open the Switch to alternative app stores as revenge for all of these anti-emulation cases. Instead of losing no money at all on people playing 15 year old games, they'd be forced to compete with alternative stores or leave a lucrative market entirely (which would mean everyone would just emulate their crap). For that to happen, they'll need to sell 12 million more Switches inside the EU, stay a gatekeeper for three years, and after that they'll have to piss off some rich person pretty badly, but I can see it happen.
  - anticensor 3y ago
    You forgot Elsevier and Apple.
- notatoad 3y ago
  i'm generally of the opinion that the DMCA is an overreach and a bad law, but this seems like exactly the sort of thing it was meant to address. in what way is this an abuse of it?
slurpyb 3y ago
I think they were crazy to even try. Just let it exist within RetroArch - in-fact I hope it doesn’t draw attention to RetroArch after this incident
- dcchambers 3y ago
  Have to agree with this. Nintendo is infamously litigious. I know that many people say the debate over emulators is "settled" and they are perfectly legal, but I'd rather not poke the bear and just keep things as they are. Emulators are an invaluable tool for game preservation...and I don't want to see one of, if not the best emulator ever, be forced to cease development.
  - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
    Is it your position that no entity should ever try to challenge a big company's interpretation of the law, however ridiculous it may be? At that point, why even have a judicial system?
    - pdimitar 3y ago
      Many people agree but don't have the resources or are risking too much if they try. If you think you can make a difference, the world will welcome you.
    - jonhohle 3y ago
      It’s an expensive theory to test. I would imagine most OSS projects or their contributors are not in a financial position to get to court, let alone see the trial to a conclusion. I don’t know what to do about it, but it seems we’ve fell into aristocracy of ruling corporations.
      - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
        That's what advocate and civil rights organizations are for. I bet the likes of the EFF would be very interested in taking this case. It aligns with their incentives to take down the DMCA.
endisneigh 3y ago
Given how many YouTubers brazenly use dolphin on steam decks and say you can get free games, I’m surprised it didn’t happen sooner.
- RGamma 3y ago
  If that exists, it furthers the point for a (high entry barrier) separate internet for responsible folks. Some things are better left out of the spotlight given this IP regime...
  - hammyhavoc 3y ago
    And yet that didn't seem to stop the average schmoe from accessing Silk Road if they intended to. "Information wants to be free" as the adage goes.
    - RGamma 3y ago
      Maybe the separate internet was an exaggeration, but there are things I would never post on a frequently visited public forum, because they're best left unspoken or found if you look for/hear about them in private-ish convo (like emulators/ROMs), given the legislative climate around them. Too much (stimulated) popularity can be poison.
- gjsman-1000 3y ago
  This is something that often gets missed in the “Why can’t Nintendo be more like Sega?” argument. Nintendo sells games from other publishers, Sega doesn’t. Other publishers get mad if Nintendo can’t keep piracy on their platform under control. They send angry letters, complain to their representatives, and so forth. It’s not just (arguably) lost sales, but now you have to deal with more cheating players. To Nintendo, piracy is an embarrassment. Nintendo files DMCAs, in part, because other publishers expect them to and because only Nintendo can.
  - fzeroracer 3y ago
    I didn't realize developers were still publishing Gamecube and Wii games. Can you share some of the newest games that have been released?
BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago
I got to play Zelda BOTW on linux using steam and some emulators. then I even bought a switch controller and was able to get the motion control to work. then I realized I had more fun setting it all up and didn't even bother to finish the game
- sosodev 3y ago
  You’re really missing out. It’s a beautiful game.
  - rationalist 3y ago
    After hearing users talk about it here on HN in 2020, I bought a Switch just to play BOTW - it was worth it. The sequel isn't as beautiful of a game play though.
    - awestroke 3y ago
      I disagree. I find TOTK to be much more polished and they fixed everything that annoyed me in the first game.
      - Skeime 3y ago
        I agree that it’s much more polished. However, because you can constantly just get into the skies and glide over everything, you (or, at least, I) don’t get as much of a “feeling” for the world as in BotW. I still remember several situations where I stumbled over a mountain, or forest, etc., in BotW and there was suddenly a whole different atmosphere. I didn’t encounter that in TotK, yet (the different layers of the map don’t feel the same, the BotW instances were more “intimate”).
        Hendrikto 3y ago
        > you (or, at least, I) don’t get as much of a “feeling” for the world as in BotW. The world of BotW felt barren and empty, so maybe that‘s a good thing. It was huge, but not a lot going on. It felt like a lifeless desert with some events sprinkled throughout.
phendrenad2 3y ago
Hasn't emulation been tried in court many times? I guess corporations will never stop trying to push their luck.
- trollied 3y ago
  It has. But this is not about emulation, this is about dolphin shipping encryption keys. https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/34527cadcce49a9a78f05949973b0930ac4dd999/Source/Core/Core/IOS/IOSC.cpp#L575 https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/34527cadcce49a9a...
  - phendrenad2 3y ago
    Weird, I'd think that all ROMs would he pre-decrypted by whoever dumped them.
pipeline_peak 3y ago
This is one of the few times I sympathize with Nintendo's piracy issues. They're a competing platform/console, why wouldn't they stop this?
- wtallis 3y ago
  It's not a question about whether Nintendo wants to stop it, but whether US copyright law gives them the power to stop it. It might; but it also seems quite possible that Nintendo would prevail merely through intimidation rather than by having the law soundly on their side.
- kadoban 3y ago
  Because they have no right to.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- jakkos 3y ago
  > piracy It's an emulator for consoles (wii and gamecube) and games that you cannot buy from Nintendo
- circuit10 3y ago
  You’re saying that Nintendo should be able to take things down for… competing with them?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
balls187 3y ago
Was dolphin planning on selling on steam?
random5245 3y ago
[flagged]
nperez 3y ago
So we just have to use that feature that lets you add non-Steam apps to Steam. What is the real impact of this? Seems like it'll reduce exposure to the extremely rare Steam user who doesn't know emulators exist and/or how to install them outside of Steam
- thejsa 3y ago
  Mostly relevant to Steam Deck users; a proper Steam release would offer better system integration, Steam Cloud, Steam Input, etc. as I understand it.
  - aprilnya 3y ago
    After you add it to the library, it shows up just like a normal steam game, but yeah some things are missing (for example Steam Cloud is missing, but Steam Input works fine)
cranium 3y ago
Nintendo is famous for being trigger-happy with DMCA requests. They shut down tons of Youtube videos that no other gaming company would even think of striking, like speedruns. Some Youtubers won't even cover Nintendo games for fear of a takedown (3 strikes and you are out).
- psychphysic 3y ago
  Nintendo are an awful companies and their fanboys are as aggressive as scientologists.
  - Mystery-Machine 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - guffins 3y ago
      Umm… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_grammatical_differences#Subject-verb_agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English...
      - messe 3y ago
        Yes, but that would be “Nintendo are an awful company”, not “Nintendo are awful companies”. That being said, I have absolutely no idea why the other commenter thought this was related to gender identity and pronouns.
        ineedasername 3y ago
        They were probably bringing their overly sensitive dislike of a cultural point of view into it when none was intended. They probably should have considered that HN is a broad community. As such they would know that HN has non native speakers. They would have realized that their interpretation was likely off the mark for this or another reason. They should have more charitably interpreted it as a typo and they should also have realized that their viewpoint on the singular use of “they” was inaccurate since they have probably heard such usage their entire lives but only now, in recent years, are they are just beginning to listen for it. They probably are not aware that this usage extends back long before everyone currently alive, but I guess this is new information for them. But now they know so hopefully we won’t hear such comments from them again.
totetsu 3y ago
Is their debian PPA also offline?
FounderBurr 3y ago
But but stealing is the coolest crime of all. Software wants to be free?
- LocalH 3y ago
  Copyright infringement is not "stealing", it is not "theft". Plagiarism is closer to stealing, as one is trying to misrepresent ownership. But even that is not legally stealing. Please use correct terminology.
  - guraf 3y ago
    [flagged]
deergomoo 3y ago
I'm intrigued as to why they DMCA'd the Steam version when it's available on the Play Store and has been for quite a while. I wonder if it's driven by the Steam Deck being a Switch-like device and they see it as a threat to any future plans of releasing GameCube/Wii games on NSO. Then again Nintendo still insists that emulators are blanket illegal despite the disagreement of (at least US) court rulings, so maybe I'm looking too far into things.
- avidphantasm 3y ago
  Valve < Nintendo << Google?
  - oliwarner 3y ago
    Maybe but I doubt either Google, Valve or any marketplace would intercede on Dolphin's behalf and risk their safe harbor. What'll be interesting to see is if Dolphin officially objects, and if Valve reinstate it on that basis.
- sigmar 3y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if it was because of the Steam Deck hardware. Also possible all the news coverage of leaked copies of 'Tears of the Kingdom' running on the Steam Deck prompted Nintendo to want to take a more aggressive posture towards emulation generally (even if dolphin doesn't emulate switch)
- gymbeaux 3y ago
  Yeah I think it’s because the Steam Deck is very similar to the Switch, whose sales have been declining drastically the last year or two. Recently a big wig at Nintendo said something to the effect of “we want people who already own a switch to buy a second switch”, a “one in every room” type of deal. To me at least, playing emulated games on something like a phone is unpleasant, because of the on-screen, touch controls. It sours the nostalgia and is plain ol unpleasant. The controls use part of the screen and aren’t tactile at all.
  - 3y ago
bentt 3y ago
Here is a strategy Nintendo could follow that would help: Oprn their own PC based game store Sell only Nintendo first party games in it Require a Nintendo online account They would defeat whatever is bothering them and make a lot of money But they won’t do this
- kevincox 3y ago
  I would definitely buy a lot of Nintendo games if they were available on desktop. But they would much rather push their consoles and resell you each game each generation.
- deergomoo 3y ago
  I think Nintendo has a similar attitude to Apple in this regard. Sure, Apple could probably make a lot of money by selling subscriptions to iMessage on non-Apple platforms, but that sacrifices control and gives people a reason not to buy their hardware. Nintendo has historically demonstrated that both of those things are extremely important to them. For example, it's not uncommon for Sony and Microsoft to sell boxes at a loss for the first few years, making their money back in software. Nintendo typically doesn't do this.
  - evandale 3y ago
    The other thing the companies have in common are massive fanbases who will buy anything they release and defend every move they make. Both their fans have the ability to spin negative news into positive news to keep up the fantasy that the company loves them and is looking out for their fans' best interests.
  - dingledork69 3y ago
    At least we have the eu to help put apple in it's place
- kimbernator 3y ago
  Because why would they? They would have to dedicate a shitload of resources to optimizing decades of work for PC so a small slice of the market can buy old stuff. All of those games would stop being a hacky thing you're okay with bugs on to a thing Nintendo now needs to support. Not only software, but widely varying hardware and worse yet, controllers. There's simply no way they release wii games as paid products on PC and make a satisfying experience with a keyboard/mouse. I have seen this idea now suggested multiple times. Nintendo's business model is sound. Protect the "official" experience at any cost so that it's 100% clear when you're playing on a Nintendo console vs a non-official emulator. Blocking dolphin's steam release is consistent with this goal; if it's on steam, it looks like a real product and non-tech people might start to think it's official.
savingsPossible 3y ago
given that dolphin is open source, a company could be created just to litigate the issue. That is, to upload dolphin on steam. without the original team permission, and to contest the DMCA claim. If they'd have grounds or not, I don't know, but the liability could be limited to them, so, there is not much to lose (if, say, the EFF is interested in the case)
nubinetwork 3y ago
Last week when there was a comment on a dolphin thread that went on about "oh why don't they contribute solely to MESS", I said the following... > Probably a combination of NIH syndrome, not knowing other projects exist, and not putting all your eggs in one basket (especially because Nintendo is quite litigious when it comes to emulators) That post was flagged, and nobody ever told me why. Now it seems quite obvious why it was flagged.
- zamadatix 3y ago
  Because the first two points are, at best, insulting/flamebait without any substance to back them up. What good is hypothesizing stuff like the two crowning jewel open source emulation projects haven't become well aware of each other over the last 20 years as one of three main reasons they are separate today? The third point being good and valid rarely makes up for that kind of conversation here, in terms of a comment doing well. Sorry I participated in that without leaving a reason, it's not always obvious people want to be further explained why.
  - nubinetwork 3y ago
    I'm sorry but how is that flamebait? In the early 00s not everyone knew of every minute detail in the emulation scene, and honestly, they still don't. It's still to this day a very underground scene. To be completely honest, most people just want a way to play free games... but even going back to nesticle in the late 90s it was about preservation and gaining personal knowledge of the hardware we enjoyed so much growing up. Having been in touch with several emulator developers over the years, there is also quite a lot of infighting over who's code is the best, or whether they even want outside contributions at all. I don't feel my comment was incorrect at all.
    - zamadatix 3y ago
      Something like "In years past, many emulation projects were more niche and development done as part of a scene rather than collaboratively. Maybe that early history played into Dolphin starting out separate and then never having a good opportunity to merge its already developed codebass with MAME/MESS?" might come off less aggressively as well as focus the discussion around substance, if it were to be the original comment. Hopefully you can agree that it's a lot easier for meaningful conversation to form around that while, on the other hand, it's a lot easier for an emotionally charged conversation to form around a statement starting "Probably a combination of NIH syndrome, not knowing other projects exist,". Both statements might have genuinely seeked to make the same intended argument, but had completely different approaches are what make it interpreted as insults/flamebait vs well intended conversation, not the personally perceived factuality. Similarly, past experiences (second or third party) with other developers who had infighting problems is not an excuse to argue that's the problem with other developers you don't know while expecting it to be interpreted as well-intentioned, without a particularly deep explanation. Those kind of claims leave little in the way of content to respond to and invokes only emotional responses, which is precisely what flagging is for. It wouldn't necessarily make it any more true as to why Dolphin is merged with MAME/MESS currently though. Dolphin has been an extremely collaborative open source effort over the years and went through multiple rewrites with hundreds of developers who were well aware of MAME/MESS (as well as other projects like retroarch these days) and still kept it standalone. What it would, however do, is be a well received comment and open the floor to earnest responses which could earnestly talk about those thoughts with more direct knowledge of the project. The other comments did a good job of covering technical reasons this kind of merger wouldn't really make sense, so I'm not going to duplicate that conversation here, but the comment being put next to them likely amplified that it seemed like a particularly unfounded take of the Dolphin team. None of this is to say any of us here are perfect, me very often not, but just because you are asking why it was flagged so heavily and nobody else gave any explanation. Even if you disagree with every last bit of the above though, please keep in mind many long time members of the Dolphin development community are active here on HN and they probably don't feel great reading comments from people they've never interacted with assuming these kinds of things (e.g. infighting, guarded about contributions, unaware of other popular projects, motivated by NIH as a primary reason) about them.
avidphantasm 3y ago
What did they think was going to happen?
- dingledork69 3y ago
  They release the software they created on steam, same as any other indie developer. Its not like they are distributing roms or making emulators is illegal.
Culonavirus 3y ago
> We were notified by Valve that Nintendo has issued a cease and desist citing the DMCA against Dolphin's Steam page, and have removed Dolphin from Steam until the matter is settled. We are currently investigating our options and will have a more in-depth response in the near future. I hope that the "settled" here means until the Dolphin team's legal counsel sends a DMCA counter notice. Then Nintendo can sue or drop the issue. But if they sue, the Doplhin project can stay on Steam until a judge orders differently or until they lose the trial. That's how it's supposed to work. Valve should stay absolutely hands off and neutral on this! This is not piracy and emulators are important.
- 0xcde4c3db 3y ago
  This allegedly isn't a DMCA safe harbor takedown, but rather a C&D based on Chapter 12 (which bans breaking DRM outside of certain exceptions, and I don't think any of the exceptions for video games cover personal entertainment use). As far as I know, Chapter 12 violations are considered a separate consideration from copyright infringement and are thus not covered by the safe harbor process (outside of which a counter-notification is irrelevant).
  - wtallis 3y ago
    From a more informed source (outgoing treasurer of the foundation backing Dolphin, and HN user delroth): https://mastodon.delroth.net/@delroth/110440308907131051 https://mastodon.delroth.net/@delroth/110440308907131051 So yes, this is about the anti-circumvention provisions and not related to the takedown procedure that usually comes to mind when the DMCA is mentioned.
    - Culonavirus 3y ago
      Thanks for more info! And excuse my language, but holy fuck Valve is not what it portrays itself to be. Going around and proactively seeking legal approval of third parties, that is NOT what I expected them to do, let alone in a case where an emulator is the core of the issue. They basically preemptively covered their ass just so the 0.1% chance of Nintendo suing them is 0. Nice. Imagine selling a product on Steam and Valve going behind your back and discussing with your competition if it's ok to have your product on Steam (lawyers to lawyers, no courts involved!)... I know it's not the same, but this case doesn't exacly inspire confidence in them being hands off in the future!
jmkni 3y ago
Good video on this from MVG - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsQtv5IvrD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsQtv5IvrD8 tl;dr The Dolphin source code contains a common/private key owned by Nintendo, which is their reason for asking it to be pulled from the Steam store.
- deergomoo 3y ago
  I still find it weird that a key can be illegal. It’s not a work someone has created, like a boot ROM. It’s just a random number that happens to be the random number they used. I guess it’s more to do with copy protection circumvention than copyright?
  - jmkni 3y ago
    For sure, as mentioned in the video it's an 'Illegal Number' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number
_joel 3y ago
Nitendo being nintendo then
drumhead 3y ago
What were they thinking. Nintendo allowing an emulator on steam??

373 points by Lammy 3y ago

whateveracct 3y ago

Complete abuse of the DMCA

SLWW 3y ago
It is Nintendo after all
Jasper_ 3y ago
The DMCA was for the private encryption keys included directly inside Dolphin source code [0]. I am not defending the DMCA at all, I think it's a shit law, but let's be clear, I can't think of a clearer example of a valid DMCA violation. It is circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a protected work [1]. Defending it by saying the work is non-infringing is fighting a very losing battle, you would have to attack the DMCA at its core in order to come out on top here. [0] https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/master/Source/Core/Core/IOS/IOSC.cpp#L575-L579 https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/master/Source/Co... [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201
- kevingadd 3y ago
  Are you sure those are Nintendo AES keys? The comments above suggest they're not: // Dolphin does not use the same "default" values as IOS does, as we do not emulate unblown // scenario. If they're Nintendo's keys, why would they DMCA a Steam page but not a GitHub repository that's distributing the keys?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jasper_ 3y ago
    Yes, they are Nintendo's private keys. I believe the comment is referring to the early factory programming stage of the console, though I'm not 100% sure. PCGamer.com also confirmed the DMCA notice says it's about encryption keys [0] > The DCMA letter sent to Valve cites the anti-circumvention language of the DMCA and specifically claims that "the Dolphin emulator operates by incorporating these cryptographic keys without Nintendo’s authorization and decrypting the ROMs at or immediately before runtime. Thus, use of the Dolphin emulator unlawfully 'circumvent[s] a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under' the Copyright Act." > If they're Nintendo's keys, why would they DMCA a Steam page but not a GitHub repository that's distributing the keys? Because Nintendo's legal department is not dumb and makes very specific takedown requests that they know they can win, as opposed to taking down more gray-area things like source code. Grabbing an emulator from dolphin-emu.org or GitHub is not the same thing as grabbing an emulator from a well-moderated public storefront where a good number of your third-party partners also publish their games. Nintendo does not publish their games on Steam as of right now, but for an analogy, imagine how happy Sony would be if a PS4 emulator showed up on Steam recommended right next to their other PC games. This was always playing with fire. [0] https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-block-steam-release-of-wii-emulator-dolphin/ https://www.pcgamer.com/nintendo-sends-valve-dmca-notice-to-...
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      Doesn't the DMCA's interoperability exception cover this? (1)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title. (2)Notwithstanding the provisions of subsections (a)(2) and (b), a person may develop and employ technological means to circumvent a technological measure, or to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure, in order to enable the identification and analysis under paragraph (1), or for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, if such means are necessary to achieve such interoperability, to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title. (3)The information acquired through the acts permitted under paragraph (1), and the means permitted under paragraph (2), may be made available to others if the person referred to in paragraph (1) or (2), as the case may be, provides such information or means solely for the purpose of enabling interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and to the extent that doing so does not constitute infringement under this title or violate applicable law other than this section.
  - skhr0680 3y ago
    you can extract that exact key from a real Wii using a pair of tweezers > If they're Nintendo's keys, why would they DMCA a Steam page but not a GitHub repository that's distributing the keys? I don't know
    - anonzzzies 3y ago
      So remove it and have people copy it in when they set up Dolphin. You can find the keys easily and you can get them for your own wii.
      - whateveracct 3y ago
        Yeah it feels like republishing with the keys removed will mean this DMCA request is moot
- userbinator 3y ago
  Maybe we should just let the Streisand Effect take care of it. I still have the infamous 09 F9 11... stuck in my head as a result of that.
  - immibis 3y ago
    Now you can also memorize 0xebe42a225e8593e448d9c5457381aaf7
- Acrobatic_Road 3y ago
  Are these keys even necessary for emulating games with Dolphin?
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    In theory you can dump disk images pre-decrypted, but that would make the Steam version of the emulator incompatible with every disk dump tool and personal Wii game archive out there.
    - LocalH 3y ago
      Plus, for preservation's sake, there at least needs to be some attention paid to 1:1 media dumps, as closely as possible.
- saghm 3y ago
  > It is circumventing a technological measure that effectively controls access to a protected work To be fair, the law is worded so poorly that I'm not sure that _anything_ can be considered a "clear" example of it. How can a measure be "effective" if it can be circumvented? If you're going to define "effective" in any way that includes this, you're going to need to explain why it wouldn't apply equally well to a loading screen message calling "dibs" when the game starts up. It's just as effective up until the point that you circumvent it (by just ignoring it)! I do think that this is the type of thing that's _intended_ to be against this law, but it's hard to take that seriously as an argument that this justifies legal action when the view that laws should be read exactly as written and not "interpreted" for intent is promulgated with such fervor in many political circles.
  - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
    By "effective" it means "that has the effect of"
    - saghm 3y ago
      I don't see how that clarifies anything; what effect does a measure that's been circumvented have, and how does it differ from the effect of a message of "dibs" that some people decide to abide by?
      - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
        The law says that nobody shall circumvent a technical protection measure that has the effect of controlling access to a copyrighted work.
        saghm 3y ago
        Okay, so how is my access controlled if I circumvent the measure? And how does that not apply equally well to me just being told in a "technical" way not to access something?
- asveikau 3y ago
  Maybe you're right, but it seems very strange that a series of bits, that is, data, not code, is a circumvention device. Additionally, it does look like there are carveouts... The anti-circumvention methods need to "effectively control access", which, seems to me as a non lawyer, that if it's very easily broken that's not very effective. (Does DVD CSS still count for this?) The device needs to have no other purpose (homebrew anyone?). There are carveouts for reverse engineering in order to make a compatible product. Anyway, IANAL, but ... it seems to me like this interpretation can be challenged in court? Does anyone know of examples of it being upheld? There was that prosecution of that Bowser guy, I'm guessing he took a plea deal.
  - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
    The "effectively" means that it has the effect of, not whether it does it poorly.
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  If this is going to be Nintendo's 09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0 (or its 455FE10422CA29C4933F95052B792AB2 as this is far from the first time Nintendo's keys leaked), I doubt the courts would care. Worst case scenario, someone in France can probably get around the problem by launching it on French Steam so people can only get the emulator through one of those throwaway VPNs. VLC managed to avoid censorship from big media companies through "foreign" law. I doubt it's worth the trouble, though.
  - kmeisthax 3y ago
    DMCA 1201 is good law in France. America conditions trade agreements upon countries adopting equivalent language to 1201 in their local law. In the case of France, the EU Copyright Directive has had 1201-equivalent language in it since the early 2000s. Even if it wasn't good law in France, Steam is a US platform, there is no "French Steam". You need something entirely owned and operated by non-US individuals to even have a chance of escaping US jurisdiction. Chinese domestic equivalent services would be your best bet these days, except now you have to deal with China's censorship machine, which makes the censorship[0] of not being able to release encryption keys for old videogames look like nothing. [0] US courts have categorically rejected the argument that copyright infringement is free speech. In fact, they seem to believe the opposite: that artists not being paid in monopoly rights is censorship, and that the 1st Amendment has a sort of ROBOT9000[1] rule where copies aren't speech. The EFF has 1st Amendment challenges to DMCA 1201 specifically but I do not expect them to be successful. [1] An IRC bot operated by XKCD creator Randall Munroe, which was also implemented by moot in 4chan's /r9k/ board. The bot removes speech that has been spoken in the past.
- tinus_hn 3y ago
  Encryption keys are not an expression, they are more like technological utility. I don’t think they are copyrighted. The DMCA could apply because of the anti-circumvention rules but that’s also kind of doubtful because emulation is fair use. Nevertheless making an emulator for a current console so easily available so anyone can pirate games on release day is unfair to Nintendo and it should surprise no one that they would act.
  - Mindwipe 3y ago
    Fair use is irrelevant to the anti-circumvention provisions (at least unless the Library of Congress explicitly sets out an exception, and they have not for emulation), and the statement that encryption is fair use is significantly more ambiguous than people hope it is (for a start neither of the relevant cases were heard in a high enough court to establish a significant precedent).
bogwog 3y ago
The DMCA basically exists to support Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft's anti-consumer and anti-competitive business models. Jailbreaking is "legal" for anything that isn't a game console, under the logic that users don't have a good reason to do it besides piracy. Which is of course complete fucking bullshit, especially since it means that an alternative store can never exist without being violating the DMCA. I hope that the push towards an alternate app store on iOS also brings more attention to this issue. (btw, idk if anything I just mentioned above is relevant to the Dolphin situation)
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  > Which is of course complete fucking bullshit, especially since it means that an alternative store can never exist without being violating the DMCA. I doubt it'll happen, but it would be pretty funny for someone in the EU to try to apply the Digital Markets Act on Nintendo to force them to open the Switch to alternative app stores as revenge for all of these anti-emulation cases. Instead of losing no money at all on people playing 15 year old games, they'd be forced to compete with alternative stores or leave a lucrative market entirely (which would mean everyone would just emulate their crap). For that to happen, they'll need to sell 12 million more Switches inside the EU, stay a gatekeeper for three years, and after that they'll have to piss off some rich person pretty badly, but I can see it happen.
- anticensor 3y ago
  You forgot Elsevier and Apple.
notatoad 3y ago
i'm generally of the opinion that the DMCA is an overreach and a bad law, but this seems like exactly the sort of thing it was meant to address. in what way is this an abuse of it?

slurpyb 3y ago

I think they were crazy to even try. Just let it exist within RetroArch - in-fact I hope it doesn’t draw attention to RetroArch after this incident

dcchambers 3y ago
Have to agree with this. Nintendo is infamously litigious. I know that many people say the debate over emulators is "settled" and they are perfectly legal, but I'd rather not poke the bear and just keep things as they are. Emulators are an invaluable tool for game preservation...and I don't want to see one of, if not the best emulator ever, be forced to cease development.
- EMIRELADERO 3y ago
  Is it your position that no entity should ever try to challenge a big company's interpretation of the law, however ridiculous it may be? At that point, why even have a judicial system?
  - pdimitar 3y ago
    Many people agree but don't have the resources or are risking too much if they try. If you think you can make a difference, the world will welcome you.
  - jonhohle 3y ago
    It’s an expensive theory to test. I would imagine most OSS projects or their contributors are not in a financial position to get to court, let alone see the trial to a conclusion. I don’t know what to do about it, but it seems we’ve fell into aristocracy of ruling corporations.
    - EMIRELADERO 3y ago
      That's what advocate and civil rights organizations are for. I bet the likes of the EFF would be very interested in taking this case. It aligns with their incentives to take down the DMCA.

endisneigh 3y ago

Given how many YouTubers brazenly use dolphin on steam decks and say you can get free games, I’m surprised it didn’t happen sooner.

RGamma 3y ago
If that exists, it furthers the point for a (high entry barrier) separate internet for responsible folks. Some things are better left out of the spotlight given this IP regime...
- hammyhavoc 3y ago
  And yet that didn't seem to stop the average schmoe from accessing Silk Road if they intended to. "Information wants to be free" as the adage goes.
  - RGamma 3y ago
    Maybe the separate internet was an exaggeration, but there are things I would never post on a frequently visited public forum, because they're best left unspoken or found if you look for/hear about them in private-ish convo (like emulators/ROMs), given the legislative climate around them. Too much (stimulated) popularity can be poison.
gjsman-1000 3y ago
This is something that often gets missed in the “Why can’t Nintendo be more like Sega?” argument. Nintendo sells games from other publishers, Sega doesn’t. Other publishers get mad if Nintendo can’t keep piracy on their platform under control. They send angry letters, complain to their representatives, and so forth. It’s not just (arguably) lost sales, but now you have to deal with more cheating players. To Nintendo, piracy is an embarrassment. Nintendo files DMCAs, in part, because other publishers expect them to and because only Nintendo can.
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  I didn't realize developers were still publishing Gamecube and Wii games. Can you share some of the newest games that have been released?

BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago

I got to play Zelda BOTW on linux using steam and some emulators. then I even bought a switch controller and was able to get the motion control to work. then I realized I had more fun setting it all up and didn't even bother to finish the game

sosodev 3y ago
You’re really missing out. It’s a beautiful game.
- rationalist 3y ago
  After hearing users talk about it here on HN in 2020, I bought a Switch just to play BOTW - it was worth it. The sequel isn't as beautiful of a game play though.
  - awestroke 3y ago
    I disagree. I find TOTK to be much more polished and they fixed everything that annoyed me in the first game.
    - Skeime 3y ago
      I agree that it’s much more polished. However, because you can constantly just get into the skies and glide over everything, you (or, at least, I) don’t get as much of a “feeling” for the world as in BotW. I still remember several situations where I stumbled over a mountain, or forest, etc., in BotW and there was suddenly a whole different atmosphere. I didn’t encounter that in TotK, yet (the different layers of the map don’t feel the same, the BotW instances were more “intimate”).
      - Hendrikto 3y ago
        > you (or, at least, I) don’t get as much of a “feeling” for the world as in BotW. The world of BotW felt barren and empty, so maybe that‘s a good thing. It was huge, but not a lot going on. It felt like a lifeless desert with some events sprinkled throughout.

phendrenad2 3y ago

Hasn't emulation been tried in court many times? I guess corporations will never stop trying to push their luck.

trollied 3y ago
It has. But this is not about emulation, this is about dolphin shipping encryption keys. https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/34527cadcce49a9a78f05949973b0930ac4dd999/Source/Core/Core/IOS/IOSC.cpp#L575 https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/blob/34527cadcce49a9a...
- phendrenad2 3y ago
  Weird, I'd think that all ROMs would he pre-decrypted by whoever dumped them.

pipeline_peak 3y ago

This is one of the few times I sympathize with Nintendo's piracy issues. They're a competing platform/console, why wouldn't they stop this?

wtallis 3y ago
It's not a question about whether Nintendo wants to stop it, but whether US copyright law gives them the power to stop it. It might; but it also seems quite possible that Nintendo would prevail merely through intimidation rather than by having the law soundly on their side.
kadoban 3y ago
Because they have no right to.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jakkos 3y ago
> piracy It's an emulator for consoles (wii and gamecube) and games that you cannot buy from Nintendo
circuit10 3y ago
You’re saying that Nintendo should be able to take things down for… competing with them?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

balls187 3y ago

Was dolphin planning on selling on steam?

random5245 3y ago

[flagged]

nperez 3y ago

So we just have to use that feature that lets you add non-Steam apps to Steam. What is the real impact of this? Seems like it'll reduce exposure to the extremely rare Steam user who doesn't know emulators exist and/or how to install them outside of Steam

thejsa 3y ago
Mostly relevant to Steam Deck users; a proper Steam release would offer better system integration, Steam Cloud, Steam Input, etc. as I understand it.
- aprilnya 3y ago
  After you add it to the library, it shows up just like a normal steam game, but yeah some things are missing (for example Steam Cloud is missing, but Steam Input works fine)

cranium 3y ago

Nintendo is famous for being trigger-happy with DMCA requests. They shut down tons of Youtube videos that no other gaming company would even think of striking, like speedruns. Some Youtubers won't even cover Nintendo games for fear of a takedown (3 strikes and you are out).

psychphysic 3y ago
Nintendo are an awful companies and their fanboys are as aggressive as scientologists.
- Mystery-Machine 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - guffins 3y ago
    Umm… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_grammatical_differences#Subject-verb_agreement https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English...
    - messe 3y ago
      Yes, but that would be “Nintendo are an awful company”, not “Nintendo are awful companies”. That being said, I have absolutely no idea why the other commenter thought this was related to gender identity and pronouns.
      - ineedasername 3y ago
        They were probably bringing their overly sensitive dislike of a cultural point of view into it when none was intended. They probably should have considered that HN is a broad community. As such they would know that HN has non native speakers. They would have realized that their interpretation was likely off the mark for this or another reason. They should have more charitably interpreted it as a typo and they should also have realized that their viewpoint on the singular use of “they” was inaccurate since they have probably heard such usage their entire lives but only now, in recent years, are they are just beginning to listen for it. They probably are not aware that this usage extends back long before everyone currently alive, but I guess this is new information for them. But now they know so hopefully we won’t hear such comments from them again.

totetsu 3y ago

Is their debian PPA also offline?

FounderBurr 3y ago

But but stealing is the coolest crime of all. Software wants to be free?

LocalH 3y ago
Copyright infringement is not "stealing", it is not "theft". Plagiarism is closer to stealing, as one is trying to misrepresent ownership. But even that is not legally stealing. Please use correct terminology.
- guraf 3y ago
  [flagged]

deergomoo 3y ago

I'm intrigued as to why they DMCA'd the Steam version when it's available on the Play Store and has been for quite a while. I wonder if it's driven by the Steam Deck being a Switch-like device and they see it as a threat to any future plans of releasing GameCube/Wii games on NSO. Then again Nintendo still insists that emulators are blanket illegal despite the disagreement of (at least US) court rulings, so maybe I'm looking too far into things.

avidphantasm 3y ago
Valve < Nintendo << Google?
- oliwarner 3y ago
  Maybe but I doubt either Google, Valve or any marketplace would intercede on Dolphin's behalf and risk their safe harbor. What'll be interesting to see is if Dolphin officially objects, and if Valve reinstate it on that basis.
sigmar 3y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if it was because of the Steam Deck hardware. Also possible all the news coverage of leaked copies of 'Tears of the Kingdom' running on the Steam Deck prompted Nintendo to want to take a more aggressive posture towards emulation generally (even if dolphin doesn't emulate switch)
gymbeaux 3y ago
Yeah I think it’s because the Steam Deck is very similar to the Switch, whose sales have been declining drastically the last year or two. Recently a big wig at Nintendo said something to the effect of “we want people who already own a switch to buy a second switch”, a “one in every room” type of deal. To me at least, playing emulated games on something like a phone is unpleasant, because of the on-screen, touch controls. It sours the nostalgia and is plain ol unpleasant. The controls use part of the screen and aren’t tactile at all.
- 3y ago

bentt 3y ago

Here is a strategy Nintendo could follow that would help: Oprn their own PC based game store Sell only Nintendo first party games in it Require a Nintendo online account They would defeat whatever is bothering them and make a lot of money But they won’t do this

kevincox 3y ago
I would definitely buy a lot of Nintendo games if they were available on desktop. But they would much rather push their consoles and resell you each game each generation.
deergomoo 3y ago
I think Nintendo has a similar attitude to Apple in this regard. Sure, Apple could probably make a lot of money by selling subscriptions to iMessage on non-Apple platforms, but that sacrifices control and gives people a reason not to buy their hardware. Nintendo has historically demonstrated that both of those things are extremely important to them. For example, it's not uncommon for Sony and Microsoft to sell boxes at a loss for the first few years, making their money back in software. Nintendo typically doesn't do this.
- evandale 3y ago
  The other thing the companies have in common are massive fanbases who will buy anything they release and defend every move they make. Both their fans have the ability to spin negative news into positive news to keep up the fantasy that the company loves them and is looking out for their fans' best interests.
- dingledork69 3y ago
  At least we have the eu to help put apple in it's place
kimbernator 3y ago
Because why would they? They would have to dedicate a shitload of resources to optimizing decades of work for PC so a small slice of the market can buy old stuff. All of those games would stop being a hacky thing you're okay with bugs on to a thing Nintendo now needs to support. Not only software, but widely varying hardware and worse yet, controllers. There's simply no way they release wii games as paid products on PC and make a satisfying experience with a keyboard/mouse. I have seen this idea now suggested multiple times. Nintendo's business model is sound. Protect the "official" experience at any cost so that it's 100% clear when you're playing on a Nintendo console vs a non-official emulator. Blocking dolphin's steam release is consistent with this goal; if it's on steam, it looks like a real product and non-tech people might start to think it's official.

savingsPossible 3y ago

given that dolphin is open source, a company could be created just to litigate the issue. That is, to upload dolphin on steam. without the original team permission, and to contest the DMCA claim. If they'd have grounds or not, I don't know, but the liability could be limited to them, so, there is not much to lose (if, say, the EFF is interested in the case)

nubinetwork 3y ago

Last week when there was a comment on a dolphin thread that went on about "oh why don't they contribute solely to MESS", I said the following... > Probably a combination of NIH syndrome, not knowing other projects exist, and not putting all your eggs in one basket (especially because Nintendo is quite litigious when it comes to emulators) That post was flagged, and nobody ever told me why. Now it seems quite obvious why it was flagged.

zamadatix 3y ago
Because the first two points are, at best, insulting/flamebait without any substance to back them up. What good is hypothesizing stuff like the two crowning jewel open source emulation projects haven't become well aware of each other over the last 20 years as one of three main reasons they are separate today? The third point being good and valid rarely makes up for that kind of conversation here, in terms of a comment doing well. Sorry I participated in that without leaving a reason, it's not always obvious people want to be further explained why.
- nubinetwork 3y ago
  I'm sorry but how is that flamebait? In the early 00s not everyone knew of every minute detail in the emulation scene, and honestly, they still don't. It's still to this day a very underground scene. To be completely honest, most people just want a way to play free games... but even going back to nesticle in the late 90s it was about preservation and gaining personal knowledge of the hardware we enjoyed so much growing up. Having been in touch with several emulator developers over the years, there is also quite a lot of infighting over who's code is the best, or whether they even want outside contributions at all. I don't feel my comment was incorrect at all.
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    Something like "In years past, many emulation projects were more niche and development done as part of a scene rather than collaboratively. Maybe that early history played into Dolphin starting out separate and then never having a good opportunity to merge its already developed codebass with MAME/MESS?" might come off less aggressively as well as focus the discussion around substance, if it were to be the original comment. Hopefully you can agree that it's a lot easier for meaningful conversation to form around that while, on the other hand, it's a lot easier for an emotionally charged conversation to form around a statement starting "Probably a combination of NIH syndrome, not knowing other projects exist,". Both statements might have genuinely seeked to make the same intended argument, but had completely different approaches are what make it interpreted as insults/flamebait vs well intended conversation, not the personally perceived factuality. Similarly, past experiences (second or third party) with other developers who had infighting problems is not an excuse to argue that's the problem with other developers you don't know while expecting it to be interpreted as well-intentioned, without a particularly deep explanation. Those kind of claims leave little in the way of content to respond to and invokes only emotional responses, which is precisely what flagging is for. It wouldn't necessarily make it any more true as to why Dolphin is merged with MAME/MESS currently though. Dolphin has been an extremely collaborative open source effort over the years and went through multiple rewrites with hundreds of developers who were well aware of MAME/MESS (as well as other projects like retroarch these days) and still kept it standalone. What it would, however do, is be a well received comment and open the floor to earnest responses which could earnestly talk about those thoughts with more direct knowledge of the project. The other comments did a good job of covering technical reasons this kind of merger wouldn't really make sense, so I'm not going to duplicate that conversation here, but the comment being put next to them likely amplified that it seemed like a particularly unfounded take of the Dolphin team. None of this is to say any of us here are perfect, me very often not, but just because you are asking why it was flagged so heavily and nobody else gave any explanation. Even if you disagree with every last bit of the above though, please keep in mind many long time members of the Dolphin development community are active here on HN and they probably don't feel great reading comments from people they've never interacted with assuming these kinds of things (e.g. infighting, guarded about contributions, unaware of other popular projects, motivated by NIH as a primary reason) about them.

avidphantasm 3y ago

What did they think was going to happen?

dingledork69 3y ago
They release the software they created on steam, same as any other indie developer. Its not like they are distributing roms or making emulators is illegal.

Culonavirus 3y ago

> We were notified by Valve that Nintendo has issued a cease and desist citing the DMCA against Dolphin's Steam page, and have removed Dolphin from Steam until the matter is settled. We are currently investigating our options and will have a more in-depth response in the near future. I hope that the "settled" here means until the Dolphin team's legal counsel sends a DMCA counter notice. Then Nintendo can sue or drop the issue. But if they sue, the Doplhin project can stay on Steam until a judge orders differently or until they lose the trial. That's how it's supposed to work. Valve should stay absolutely hands off and neutral on this! This is not piracy and emulators are important.

0xcde4c3db 3y ago
This allegedly isn't a DMCA safe harbor takedown, but rather a C&D based on Chapter 12 (which bans breaking DRM outside of certain exceptions, and I don't think any of the exceptions for video games cover personal entertainment use). As far as I know, Chapter 12 violations are considered a separate consideration from copyright infringement and are thus not covered by the safe harbor process (outside of which a counter-notification is irrelevant).
- wtallis 3y ago
  From a more informed source (outgoing treasurer of the foundation backing Dolphin, and HN user delroth): https://mastodon.delroth.net/@delroth/110440308907131051 https://mastodon.delroth.net/@delroth/110440308907131051 So yes, this is about the anti-circumvention provisions and not related to the takedown procedure that usually comes to mind when the DMCA is mentioned.
  - Culonavirus 3y ago
    Thanks for more info! And excuse my language, but holy fuck Valve is not what it portrays itself to be. Going around and proactively seeking legal approval of third parties, that is NOT what I expected them to do, let alone in a case where an emulator is the core of the issue. They basically preemptively covered their ass just so the 0.1% chance of Nintendo suing them is 0. Nice. Imagine selling a product on Steam and Valve going behind your back and discussing with your competition if it's ok to have your product on Steam (lawyers to lawyers, no courts involved!)... I know it's not the same, but this case doesn't exacly inspire confidence in them being hands off in the future!

jmkni 3y ago

Good video on this from MVG - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsQtv5IvrD8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsQtv5IvrD8 tl;dr The Dolphin source code contains a common/private key owned by Nintendo, which is their reason for asking it to be pulled from the Steam store.

deergomoo 3y ago
I still find it weird that a key can be illegal. It’s not a work someone has created, like a boot ROM. It’s just a random number that happens to be the random number they used. I guess it’s more to do with copy protection circumvention than copyright?
- jmkni 3y ago
  For sure, as mentioned in the video it's an 'Illegal Number' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number

_joel 3y ago

Nitendo being nintendo then

drumhead 3y ago

What were they thinking. Nintendo allowing an emulator on steam??