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I have resigned from all roles in rustlang, effective immediately
- colejohnson66 3y agoHere's the reasoning, should the tweets get deleted: https://thephd.dev/i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023 https://thephd.dev/i-am-no-longer-speaking-at-rustconf-2023
- perihelions 3y ago[flagged]
- nappy-doo 3y agoThe blog post states that the author will no longer be speaking at RustConf 2023 about a possible future for compile-time programming. The decision came after a call with RustConf organizers, during which the organizers informed the author that their talk had been downgraded from a keynote to a regular talk. The author initially thought the change was due to scheduling or finding a better fit, but later realized that it was because the organizers did not want the talk to be endorsed by the Rust Project. The author explains that they had not initially submitted a talk for RustConf 2023 and had to register their talk after the deadline because they had not planned to give a talk until 2024. They were nominated by Rust Project Leadership to give a keynote about a Rust-related topic based on their previous work on compile-time reflection. The author emphasizes that their talk was meant to explore possible future directions and that the ideas presented were their own, not representing any official endorsement. The author expresses confusion and disappointment at the sudden decision to downgrade their talk and the lack of direct communication from Rust Project Leadership. They feel that the decision reflects non-transparent decision-making and unprofessional behavior. They decide not to play along with the situation and choose not to give the talk in its downgraded form or negotiate for a keynote slot, expressing their disagreement with the behavior exhibited. The blog post concludes with the author stating their choice not to participate in the conference and to refrain from playing along with the situation.
- perihelions 3y agoThanks! (It didn't really give a lucid summary in my view, but sincerely thanks for doing the work)
- chaxor 3y agoPretty sure this is just pasting the link into GPT-4 with browsing summary
- perihelions 3y agoYes, and I'm grateful for the small courtesy someone took the time to do that.
- waiseristy 3y ago[flagged]
- loeg 3y agoTl;dr they got invited to talk, the organizers didn't look to closely at the talk, and the talk was rejected or downgraded at the last minute. There is some speculation this was deliberate but I did not see it substantiated. Might have just missed it, though. Is the blog author the same person as the tweeter? My impression is phantomderp on twitter is the blogger, but the quote tweet is another account.
- jcranmer 3y agoIt looks like the person who is resigning is not the one whose talk was rejected/downgraded, but is doing so because of the way the talk was rejected/downgraded.
- daniel-thompson 3y agoHow does [person A choosing not to speak at a conference] connect to [person B leaving the Rust project]?
- TazeTSchnitzel 3y agoWe can only speculate since the tweet doesn't explain the connrction, it only indicates one (via quote-tweeting).
- jeroenhd 3y agoI can't find the direct link either, but the blog post is quoted as the reason for leaving the Rust project. Neither happens in a vacuum. There was likely a lot of internet and real-life drama between people. The basis for the blog post already shows some sign of preexisting drama. I don't know the context so I can only theorize why they quit. Perhaps they noticed the drama beforehand and this was the final straw. Perhaps they felt called out by the blog post. Perhaps they saw more internet drama coming and decided they've had enough. Maybe of note: JT has been very influential in a new language originating from the SerenityOS project, Jakt [1], though his contributions died off over time. Perhaps they're searching for a new challenge and saw this as a good moment to get out? [1]: https://github.com/SerenityOS/jakt https://github.com/SerenityOS/jakt
- TazeTSchnitzel 3y agoIf the tweets get deleted: that post was made by a different person than the one who resigned, but it seems the latter's resignation was prompted by it.
- gaws 3y agoArchive link: https://archive.is/zgP6W https://archive.is/zgP6W
- TazeTSchnitzel 3y agoIt seems the person who resigned here was on the Rust core team, and had been involved in Rust for quite a long time (https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/announcement-jonathan-turner-joins-mozillas-rust-team/3278 https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/announcement-jonathan-turn...).
- wk_end 3y agoIn no way defending the sloppy conference planning or how the former keynote speaker got screwed here, but...unless I'm missing something it seems pretty disproportionate to completely leave a community you've invested over seven years of your life in over sloppy conference planning, doesn't it? I feel like I'm missing something.
- dom96 3y agoI really doubt this is the sole reason. It’s likely simply what broke the camel’s back so to speak.
- jasmer 3y agoOr it's one side of the story.
- imran-iq 3y agoAllegedly this isn't the first time something like this has happened[0]. Just feels like more open source drama tbh. --- https://twitter.com/__phantomderp/status/1662235332375347202 https://twitter.com/__phantomderp/status/1662235332375347202
- netaustin 3y agoWhat you're describing may be the sunk cost fallacy [https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy].
- lo_zamoyski 3y ago
- draw_down 3y ago[dead]
- WatchDog 3y agoResigning over someone else’s talk being bumped into a different slot? All seems overly dramatic.
- draw_down 3y ago[dead]
- jcranmer 3y agoMy understanding (I've never had the mispleasure of running a conference) is that keynote talks are very different from regular talks. With regular talks, presenters submit talk proposals, the conference committee select which talks to give. With keynote talks, the committee instead asks a specific presenter to give a specific talk. So when someone, who is hesitant in the first place about the appropriateness of their material for a talk, is asked to give a talk, communicates their concerns, is emphatically encouraged by the committee to do so anyways, and is suddenly told by the committee that "never mind, we don't want your talk"... at best, that speaks poorly of the committee.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nonethewiser 3y agoBut to be clear, in this case they werent asked to give a specific talk. The speaker came up with it.
- m0llusk 3y agoWas not able to load this. Maybe it is time to reconsider using Twitter this way?
- pwdisswordfishc 3y agohttps://nitter.unixfox.eu/jntrnr/status/1662229886386442242#m https://nitter.unixfox.eu/jntrnr/status/1662229886386442242#...
- LightHugger 3y ago[flagged]
- worik 3y ago> The people running the rust foundation are the typical power grubbing petty people who go out of their way to use being progressive as a shield for being bad people. Really? Are you involved in any groups you do not feel that way about?
- abeyer 3y agoThat seems the exact opposite of what the post author said, praising the foundation: > The Rust Foundation has handled the grant work with utmost grace, respect, and professionalism for myself and Shepherd’s time. Contrarily, the Rust Project deigned to effectively pass several mandates down through an opaque process that affected me, while refusing to air to-this-minute unknown grievances with the direction of the Compile-Time Midterm Report.
- sergiotapia 3y agoWhat is it about Rust that attracts so much drama like this? Someone has to do the calculus here. It can't be the sheer number of developers because Rust is still a niche language. Why does Rust have these kind of shenanigans and attract people that either cause these problems or experience these problems? The only other language that comes close is the V language, but that's mostly people shitting on the language (for no good reason) and not infighting drama like Rust has.
- camdenlock 3y agoTerminally-online people behave like this, on average.
- worik 3y ago> Terminally-online people behave like this, on average. No we do not. Do we?
- camdenlock 3y agoIf you don’t, you might not be online nearly enough.
- drewcoo 3y agoAll true Scotsmen are always online.
- worik 3y ago> What is it about Rust that attracts so much drama like this? Any group that aims for inclusivenes, and gets large has the problem. Individuals, especially bright motivated people often get frustrated and a proportion of them do not have the social skills and maturity to avoid tantrums
- herbstein 3y agoAs an example; John A De Goes, one of the most prolific advocates for Scala and developer and lead of the Zio ecosystem, has announced that he is stopping his advocacy, stepping down from leading the Zio ecosystem, and is going to branch out. A big piece of "drama"/community turmoil that gained exactly one comment on the four posts created for it. https://degoes.net/articles/splendid-scala-journey https://degoes.net/articles/splendid-scala-journey
- rvz 3y agoSo someone getting upset over their powerpoint presentation getting downgraded from being part of the RustConf keynote. That’s it? Much like an explosion in an ant hill.
- nabakin 3y ago1. They didn't submit a talk or intend to give one 2. They were specifically invited to give a keynote and decided to do so at their request 3. Repeatedly confirmed the topic was ok 4. Put a lot of work into the keynote 5. Told last minute they would not be giving a keynote with no reason I'd be upset. This is not how you treat your community.
- rvz 3y agoThat is even worse. But ever since the Rust Foundation was formed there was no 'community', only corporate interests, so actions like this is typical of them. Either way, it seems that the 'Rust foundation' is taking everyone involved downhill. Perhaps the Rust core team are realising very late on the way that the structure of the foundation being a big problem as I said before. [0] Focusing more on 'code' than on the problems with the governance structure which is the reason why they are now finally realising that they have created the same problems which has been seen before in the Linux foundation. After all, both are 501(c)6 orgs and serve the interests of corporations more than the community and if they were a community then it should have been set up as a 501(c)3 instead. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35592650 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35592650
- steveklabnik 3y agoThe blog post specifically talks about how the Foundation was very normal and reasonable, but the Project was the one being weird and causing problems.
- DocSavage 3y agoWhat does "last minute" mean here? Isn't RustConf in mid-September and it's a single track conference so speakers are heard by all participants? It would be a good way to get your work and opinions out to the broader community. Clearly the process was botched and more effort should've been made to come to a mutually beneficial solution, but going from an invited keynote (great honor) to an invited talk (honor) is not what I would call a deliberate attempt to "disgrace one of the experts in my field."
- fwlr 3y agoMy understanding of the situation is this: At the request of Rust Project, JeanHeyd is asked to give a keynote at RustConf. JeanHeyd is reluctant, worried that their topic is too speculative and too much like a proposal for implementing a Rust feature. They ask around and get told it’s definitely ok, please don’t decline the talk, etc. Later, after the talk is prepared, RustConf contacts JeanHeyd to say their talk has been downgraded from keynote, at the request of Rust Project. The reason given is that Rust Project does not want to endorse their direction on this feature. It is not a very good reason, as JeanHeyd had already taken many steps to make it clear in the talk that this is speculative, was not offered a chance to make changes to the talk that make it even more clear that Rust Project doesn’t endorse it, was only giving a talk on this topic because Rust Project requested it in the first place, and there have been other keynotes that also run afoul of this reason but were not bumped in this manner. JeanHeyd writes a blog post explaining this, retracting their talk entirely, and posing the question: what is the real reason for the bump? Later, JT resigns from all roles in rustlang, citing JeanHeyd’s blog post but not otherwise elaborating. Obviously, all the interesting stuff is happening below the surface here. I’ll hazard a few guesses (and that’s all they are, just guesses; I don’t know the situation and I don’t know the people in it, nor am I speaking for them): 1. “Losing an internal political battle”. JT may have been involved in having Rust Project push JeanHeyd for the talk. Others in Rust Project were against the talk, and had Rust Project reverse course on it. JT resigns in protest. 2. “Discovering and being dismayed by internal politics”. People outside the Rust Project were echoing JeanHeyd’s question, what is the real reason here? JT is well-connected and respected in the Rust community and may have tried to find out the real reason. Perhaps JT finds the real reason and is disgusted (or perhaps JT gets similarly stonewalled, and is disgusted by that), and resigns. 3. (More speculative, based on both JeanHeyd and JT being open about their neurodivergence, drawing on my own as well) “Autists trying to avoid internal politics”. Many aspects of how Rust Project handled this situation would be uncomfortable for autistic individuals (opaque decision-making process, abrupt reversal, inadequate justification, not up for debate - to name a few). JT may therefore find it inhospitable, and so resigns.
- BrandoElFollito 3y agoCompletely unrelated, but as a non native speaker of English I was completely lost in the "their"s, not knowing who they refer to. Then I realized that JT may prefer to be addressed this way, which is indeed the case according to their Twitter handle. It is a shame that better pronouns were not promoted in English to simplify the understanding of sentences where they both refer to a single person and a group.
- hprotagonist 3y agoSayre’s Law
- PeterWhittaker 3y agoRelated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36091242 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36091242
- avinassh 3y agoWait, there are two entities now, Rust Project and Rust Foundation?
- macobrien 3y agoThe Rust Foundation is the legal entity that owns the trademark, accepts sponsorships, provides grants, etc. The Rust Project is the technical organization that makes decisions about the language and ecosystem.
- v3gajerusalem 3y agoSounds like a normal work week to me. Try working at amazon lol. Oh the shit can change…and it will! It will change.
- jmartrican 3y agoOh wow. How long you been there?