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One thing that EV's have an advantage of is the reduced footprint of their drivetrain. The primary bulk of an EV is the massive battery that usually spans the

One thing that EV's have an advantage of is the reduced footprint of their drivetrain. The primary bulk of an EV is the massive battery that usually spans the bottom of the car opening up space in the interior or the ubiquitous EV "frunk" this makes for a more spacious interior and the Y takes advantage of this well. That being said it seems that 2023 is the year of the EV, my family is currently in the market for a new car and have been pleasantly surprised at the breadth of offerings. I can't really make up my mind on whether the fact that the model Y is the "best selling model of car" is something to hang your hat on these days. It's a great metric, sure, but it's been in a somewhat limited market. On it's face I can see it's appeal - size, space, EV, extra seating - its NOT A MINIVAN. But it seems like a fairly easy moat to breach. One thing about the Corolla was it's build quality was top notch it was a solid, reliable car and it seems more and more lately this isn't a hallmark of Tesla. I wouldn't be surprised for the model Y to keep the mantle of "best selling model" - particularly because of Tesla's lead in its ability to manufacture electric cars and the surface appeal of the model Y - but I wouldn't be surprised if it lost this lead as well.

nine_k 3y ago
This is reasonable. OTOH a really mass-produced car means that its production becomes optimized, quirks eventually fixed, rough edges polished, etc. With model Y, Tesla has a chance to polish the design and the production process and make the car reliable and of stable quality. They of course can squander that chance, but they never had such a chance before at all, to my mind.
- viraptor 3y ago
  It's not a huge difference to other manufacturers - the idea of putting different things on a common chassis and iterating that one slowly was happening for a while. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_platform https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_platform
resolutebat 3y ago
If you're in the market, go for a couple of test drives. The competition is mostly regular ICE cars with a battery bolted on, while Teslas are designed from ground up as EVs and it shows throughout in ways big and small. We were originally leaning towards getting a Polestar, but the difference between driving one and a Tesla is night and day.
- tallytarik 3y ago
  Out of curiosity, what did you prefer about the Tesla over the Polestar?
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    The minimalist cabin is the obvious one: it's more spacious and feels much more spacious thanks to the glass roof. I did have severe doubts about the touchscreen and lack of controls, but in practice this has been a non-issue, there are tactile controls for everything you need to actually drive and voice controls for everything you don't (climate, music, etc). The glove box is just stupid though.
    - dieortin 3y ago
      You do realize this has nothing to do with it being built from the start as an electric vehicle right? And as far as I know, the polestar is designed as an EV too.
      - resolutebat 3y ago
        The Polestar 2 is built on Volvo/Geely's CMA platform and is very similar to the ICE Volvo XC40. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Modular_Architecture_platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Modular_Architecture_p...
      - killjoywashere 3y ago
        Meh, my wife was grooving for a Polestar so I rented a Polestar 1 for a weekend and we both came away feeling like it was good to rent because we definitely didn’t want to buy it. It was like the Swedes put all their effort into the material design and gave no shits about the UX. The UX was something Ford would have been proud of in 2009.
tshaddox 3y ago
> That being said it seems that 2023 is the year of the EV, my family is currently in the market for a new car and have been pleasantly surprised at the breadth of offerings. My wife and I are in the market for a second car, after buying an ICE SUV at the beginning of the pandemic and having no car for 10 years before that (living in San Francisco). There’s a lot of options for a $40,000+ primary family car, but my impression is that there is a notable lack of options in the “second car” or “economy car” categories. We already have the ICE SUV for road trips, camping trips, IKEA trips, etc. We will probably need a second car very soon (moving from the Bay Area to LA and less WFH schedules). Am I just supposed to get a Leaf or a Bolt? Plug in hybrids seem very cool to me but barely exist in the US (is this really too much cognitive load to figure out how fuel economy works?). Where’s the $25,000 electric Corolla with 100 mile range?
- ccozan 3y ago
  Dacia Spring come to my mind, but I am not sure is exported to US
  - tshaddox 3y ago
    Yeah, I’m also looking for something I can actually buy through normal channels (granted in in the last few years it has been difficult just buying any car has been difficult from a party who isn’t clearly a scalper) and expect to have some level of support availability. Not really looking to buy a car the same way I buy Raspberry Pi clones from AliExpress.
    - ccozan 3y ago
      I guess they can rebrand it Renault Spring and have it serviced by Nissan ( they are all under the same alliance )
  - oblio 3y ago
    It's not. They barely have any cars under 4m there.
- labster 3y ago
elif 3y ago
What makes you think the model Y isn't solid or reliable? I'm super happy with my 2021. I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops. A negative comparison on reliability with ICE just does not compute to me.
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  Tesla is first and foremost a technology company. Top notch tech, second-rate car. Toyota is first and foremost a car company. Top notch car, fifth-rate tech.
  - elif 3y ago
    Toyota recently disassembled a model Y to study it and this is what their executives said: "Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It's unbelievable," "It's a whole different manufacturing philosophy," while another added, “We need a new platform designed as a blank-sheet EV."
    - VexorLoophole 3y ago
      Got any source for these statements?
    - kamranjon 3y ago
      Would love to read the source for this, do you have any links?
      - jkeisling 3y ago
        The source seems to be a February article from Automotive News interviewing several Toyota execs off-the-record: https://archive.is/0LZYf https://archive.is/0LZYf. The relevant quotes are midway through
    - mschild 3y ago
      And yet they seem to have massive issues https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla...
mateo- 3y ago
as an alternative to Tesla, I recommend a Polestar 2. Somewhere between a 3 and a Y. Way better build quality (it's basically a Volvo, after all).
TheSwordsman 3y ago
I think the Supercharger network was a significant competitive advantage. With the news today that Ford will be adopting NACS in the near future for North American vehicles, I do think their EV options will start to become more compelling.
cperciva 3y ago
I recently bought a Polestar 2. For people who aren't familiar with the brand, I describe it as "Volvo makes a Model 3". Is it less high tech than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company. Is it better constructed than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company.
- cpach 3y ago
  Glad to hear those picodollars won’t get converted to petrodollars ;-)
  - cperciva 3y ago
    Never going back to a gas car. We've been driving a Kona EV since 2019 but decided that we need two cars now.
dainiusse 3y ago
I think I might give a try for MY (if its suspension got any better), but where I live there is no real place for servicing it and insurance costs 7x the price of a new leaf for example which is insand.
Fradow 3y ago
From what I understood on a previous thread that talked about EV owners wanting to go back to gas cars, the main reason Tesla owners like their EVs more than other brand owners is not based on the actual vehicle, but due to ease of charging because of the supercharger network and other Tesla features to dispel range anxiety. That in itself is a good reason to buy a Tesla right now (it may evolve in just a few years in the future): it's the one with the best charging experience. Considering how much hassle a bad charging experience can be, I imagine this has an influence on sales figures.
CalRobert 3y ago
What's wrong with minivans? I always loved having the ability to haul tons of stuff or people depending on the need.
- D13Fd 3y ago
  Agreed. I would love a good electric minivan (e.g. an electric Honda Odyssey). There are supposed to be a few coming down the pike but I had to buy a cheap used internal combustion one for now.
  - blake1 3y ago
    Minivan seems like a great form factor for an EV. Unfortunately, the small number of companies that still make minivans are also the companies that are slowest to adopt EVs.
    - prmoustache 3y ago
      It is the ideal form factor for anyone with a little bit of sense. It has the best room/capacity per footprint.
      - CalRobert 3y ago
        They aren't the most aerodynamic and had surprisingly bad fuel economy the last time I looked, but after those concerns it's hard to beat a minivan. I was shocked just how little cargo capacity my father in law's big fancy Mercedes SUV has - I was able to fit more in a Honda Fit (which explains the name!)
        prmoustache 3y ago
        Don't think fuel economy is a real concern if you compare them to most SUVs.
    - amarant 3y ago
      What use case does a minivan solve that a VW ID BUZZ does not? I guess it's technically not a minivan(?), but it's not very far from it!
jononomo 3y ago
My dream car is a minivan -- it is literally the most practical kind of vehicle I can think of, so that is what I fantasize about getting. Why are you so impressed that the model Y is not a minivan? Wouldn't any car just be better if it were a minivan?
- ihateyouall123 3y ago
  [dead]
- yurishimo 3y ago
  In case you weren't aware already, the next-gen VW "bus" will start sales in the US next summer/fall. I expect other car manufacturers will begin sales of their minivan EV replacements around that time as well. Unfortunately for VW, they are trying to cash in on the "cool" factor and nostalgia for the vintages buses and the vehicle is outrageously expensive. For $60k, I don't features in addition to gimmicks and the backseat is pretty tight. Not to mention the interior tech and controls for this first generation of VW ev's is comically bad.
kjksf 3y ago
The talking point about Tesla reliability is outdated. Model 3 was one of the most reliable cars in Germany in 2022. "Germany’s ADAC, which is the largest automobile club in Europe, published the results of its latest reliability study, which analyzes vehicle breakdowns and their causes in 2022, and the Tesla Model 3 ranked at the top of the chart." https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-adac-index-2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-...
- cjrp 3y ago
  I'd be interested in how many times each car had to be seen by the manufacturer, rather than full breakdowns (i.e. at the side of the road, can't continue the journey). EVs should be much more reliable in terms of full breakdowns, but with all of the complex systems I've seen more small things go wrong.
- 93po 3y ago
  Tesla reliability is also often conflated with "build quality", and the sources for Tesla's poor build quality differ vastly, but a not-insignificant source of it wasn't objective information but rather surveys. Surveys that specifically ask "How does build quality compare to expectations". Which isn't a fair question because people hold different expectations for Teslas than other cars.
Randomizer42 3y ago
I will never buy a T$LA product. Garbage products, turd of a CEO.
3vidence 3y ago
In the market for a car here in Canada. Really loved the idea of an electric car / plug in hybrid but it feels like EVs are just not adequately designed for Canada. The main issues are (A) not enough charging infrastructure (fixable) and (B) poor battery performance in cold weather. I think the cold weather thing could be fixable but from my perspective it seems like EVs are designed with California in mind so there seems to be little incentive to fix those issues. Additionally Canada wants all new cars to be EVs by somewhere around 2030 but it seems like a not very well thought out plan. Personally I ended up going with a standard hybrid. - Fantastic mileage in the city. - Good cold weather performance. - Highest reliability by consumers reports and other publications. - No range anxiety. - Battery lasts a very long time since it is used less and stays at a medium charge.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  We went for a Model Y. The heat pump is way more efficient in the winter than resistive heating. Combine that with starting out at room temperature because it's garaged, and we see little winter range loss. We never have charging issues, and we've gone to rural Saskatchewan, tourist Quebec and all parts in between. The trans-Canada has great supercharger coverage, rural Saskatchewan has welders you can unplug and tourist Quebec has chargers at the hotels. I bet our battery lasts longer than yours. 99% of driving is local, we plug in at 50% and charge to 80%, which is a lot easier on a big battery like ours than the small battery you have. Even on road trips it basically stays between 20 and 80.
  - 3vidence 3y ago
    Not really going to argue your points (they seem well researched!), however I think for most consumers there's still that last level of "thinking" required to feel comfortable having an EV as a primary vehicle. Including as you mentioned having a heated garage compared to people such as myself who have to rely on street parking which can comprise both the battery distance and the ability to consistently charge. Lastly I do think there's a catagory of people who take pride in figuring out how to make systems work for them specifically (in this case EVs in Canada). I myself am that way about many things in my life but when it comes to my vehicle i just want it to work. It's good to know that your experience is working though and hope for EV coverage to expand in the future.
buffington 3y ago
I own a Model 3, and one thing I didn't fully appreciate until a recent 2000+ mile roadtrip is how good the Tesla Super Charger network is. Even in remote parts of Nevada we were always within range of a Super Charger. Using the onboard nav system made that even better, since it's aware of how busy a station is, or if the station is even functional, and would route accordingly. I don't know much about other charging networks, but I've used non-Tesla chargers a handful of times over the past two years, and every time, it was a poor experience. They've been slow, some have stopped working a few minutes into a charge, or don't work at all. In two separate cases the chargers I drove to didn't actually exist, despite being directed to them by those networks' apps. In one case, they weren't built yet, and in another, the chargers weren't even properly mounted to the ground and getting blown around by the wind and leaning over as far as the underground cables would allow. Prior to my roadtrip the charging network wouldn't have been much of a selling point for me since I usually charge at home. But after? I think it's far more important than I realized.

nine_k 3y ago

This is reasonable. OTOH a really mass-produced car means that its production becomes optimized, quirks eventually fixed, rough edges polished, etc. With model Y, Tesla has a chance to polish the design and the production process and make the car reliable and of stable quality. They of course can squander that chance, but they never had such a chance before at all, to my mind.

viraptor 3y ago
It's not a huge difference to other manufacturers - the idea of putting different things on a common chassis and iterating that one slowly was happening for a while. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_platform https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_platform

resolutebat 3y ago

If you're in the market, go for a couple of test drives. The competition is mostly regular ICE cars with a battery bolted on, while Teslas are designed from ground up as EVs and it shows throughout in ways big and small. We were originally leaning towards getting a Polestar, but the difference between driving one and a Tesla is night and day.

tallytarik 3y ago
Out of curiosity, what did you prefer about the Tesla over the Polestar?
- resolutebat 3y ago
  The minimalist cabin is the obvious one: it's more spacious and feels much more spacious thanks to the glass roof. I did have severe doubts about the touchscreen and lack of controls, but in practice this has been a non-issue, there are tactile controls for everything you need to actually drive and voice controls for everything you don't (climate, music, etc). The glove box is just stupid though.
  - dieortin 3y ago
    You do realize this has nothing to do with it being built from the start as an electric vehicle right? And as far as I know, the polestar is designed as an EV too.
    - resolutebat 3y ago
      The Polestar 2 is built on Volvo/Geely's CMA platform and is very similar to the ICE Volvo XC40. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Modular_Architecture_platform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Modular_Architecture_p...
    - killjoywashere 3y ago
      Meh, my wife was grooving for a Polestar so I rented a Polestar 1 for a weekend and we both came away feeling like it was good to rent because we definitely didn’t want to buy it. It was like the Swedes put all their effort into the material design and gave no shits about the UX. The UX was something Ford would have been proud of in 2009.

tshaddox 3y ago

> That being said it seems that 2023 is the year of the EV, my family is currently in the market for a new car and have been pleasantly surprised at the breadth of offerings. My wife and I are in the market for a second car, after buying an ICE SUV at the beginning of the pandemic and having no car for 10 years before that (living in San Francisco). There’s a lot of options for a $40,000+ primary family car, but my impression is that there is a notable lack of options in the “second car” or “economy car” categories. We already have the ICE SUV for road trips, camping trips, IKEA trips, etc. We will probably need a second car very soon (moving from the Bay Area to LA and less WFH schedules). Am I just supposed to get a Leaf or a Bolt? Plug in hybrids seem very cool to me but barely exist in the US (is this really too much cognitive load to figure out how fuel economy works?). Where’s the $25,000 electric Corolla with 100 mile range?

ccozan 3y ago
Dacia Spring come to my mind, but I am not sure is exported to US
- tshaddox 3y ago
  Yeah, I’m also looking for something I can actually buy through normal channels (granted in in the last few years it has been difficult just buying any car has been difficult from a party who isn’t clearly a scalper) and expect to have some level of support availability. Not really looking to buy a car the same way I buy Raspberry Pi clones from AliExpress.
  - ccozan 3y ago
    I guess they can rebrand it Renault Spring and have it serviced by Nissan ( they are all under the same alliance )
- oblio 3y ago
  It's not. They barely have any cars under 4m there.
labster 3y ago

elif 3y ago

What makes you think the model Y isn't solid or reliable? I'm super happy with my 2021. I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops. A negative comparison on reliability with ICE just does not compute to me.

Dalewyn 3y ago
Tesla is first and foremost a technology company. Top notch tech, second-rate car. Toyota is first and foremost a car company. Top notch car, fifth-rate tech.
- elif 3y ago
  Toyota recently disassembled a model Y to study it and this is what their executives said: "Taking the skin off the Model Y, it was truly a work of art. It's unbelievable," "It's a whole different manufacturing philosophy," while another added, “We need a new platform designed as a blank-sheet EV."
  - VexorLoophole 3y ago
    Got any source for these statements?
  - kamranjon 3y ago
    Would love to read the source for this, do you have any links?
    - jkeisling 3y ago
      The source seems to be a February article from Automotive News interviewing several Toyota execs off-the-record: https://archive.is/0LZYf https://archive.is/0LZYf. The relevant quotes are midway through
  - mschild 3y ago
    And yet they seem to have massive issues https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla...

mateo- 3y ago

as an alternative to Tesla, I recommend a Polestar 2. Somewhere between a 3 and a Y. Way better build quality (it's basically a Volvo, after all).

TheSwordsman 3y ago

I think the Supercharger network was a significant competitive advantage. With the news today that Ford will be adopting NACS in the near future for North American vehicles, I do think their EV options will start to become more compelling.

cperciva 3y ago

I recently bought a Polestar 2. For people who aren't familiar with the brand, I describe it as "Volvo makes a Model 3". Is it less high tech than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company. Is it better constructed than a Tesla? Absolutely: Volvo is a car company.

cpach 3y ago
Glad to hear those picodollars won’t get converted to petrodollars ;-)
- cperciva 3y ago
  Never going back to a gas car. We've been driving a Kona EV since 2019 but decided that we need two cars now.

dainiusse 3y ago

I think I might give a try for MY (if its suspension got any better), but where I live there is no real place for servicing it and insurance costs 7x the price of a new leaf for example which is insand.

Fradow 3y ago

From what I understood on a previous thread that talked about EV owners wanting to go back to gas cars, the main reason Tesla owners like their EVs more than other brand owners is not based on the actual vehicle, but due to ease of charging because of the supercharger network and other Tesla features to dispel range anxiety. That in itself is a good reason to buy a Tesla right now (it may evolve in just a few years in the future): it's the one with the best charging experience. Considering how much hassle a bad charging experience can be, I imagine this has an influence on sales figures.

CalRobert 3y ago

What's wrong with minivans? I always loved having the ability to haul tons of stuff or people depending on the need.

D13Fd 3y ago
Agreed. I would love a good electric minivan (e.g. an electric Honda Odyssey). There are supposed to be a few coming down the pike but I had to buy a cheap used internal combustion one for now.
- blake1 3y ago
  Minivan seems like a great form factor for an EV. Unfortunately, the small number of companies that still make minivans are also the companies that are slowest to adopt EVs.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    It is the ideal form factor for anyone with a little bit of sense. It has the best room/capacity per footprint.
    - CalRobert 3y ago
      They aren't the most aerodynamic and had surprisingly bad fuel economy the last time I looked, but after those concerns it's hard to beat a minivan. I was shocked just how little cargo capacity my father in law's big fancy Mercedes SUV has - I was able to fit more in a Honda Fit (which explains the name!)
      - prmoustache 3y ago
        Don't think fuel economy is a real concern if you compare them to most SUVs.
  - amarant 3y ago
    What use case does a minivan solve that a VW ID BUZZ does not? I guess it's technically not a minivan(?), but it's not very far from it!

jononomo 3y ago

My dream car is a minivan -- it is literally the most practical kind of vehicle I can think of, so that is what I fantasize about getting. Why are you so impressed that the model Y is not a minivan? Wouldn't any car just be better if it were a minivan?

ihateyouall123 3y ago
[dead]
yurishimo 3y ago
In case you weren't aware already, the next-gen VW "bus" will start sales in the US next summer/fall. I expect other car manufacturers will begin sales of their minivan EV replacements around that time as well. Unfortunately for VW, they are trying to cash in on the "cool" factor and nostalgia for the vintages buses and the vehicle is outrageously expensive. For $60k, I don't features in addition to gimmicks and the backseat is pretty tight. Not to mention the interior tech and controls for this first generation of VW ev's is comically bad.

kjksf 3y ago

The talking point about Tesla reliability is outdated. Model 3 was one of the most reliable cars in Germany in 2022. "Germany’s ADAC, which is the largest automobile club in Europe, published the results of its latest reliability study, which analyzes vehicle breakdowns and their causes in 2022, and the Tesla Model 3 ranked at the top of the chart." https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-adac-index-2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-...

cjrp 3y ago
I'd be interested in how many times each car had to be seen by the manufacturer, rather than full breakdowns (i.e. at the side of the road, can't continue the journey). EVs should be much more reliable in terms of full breakdowns, but with all of the complex systems I've seen more small things go wrong.
93po 3y ago
Tesla reliability is also often conflated with "build quality", and the sources for Tesla's poor build quality differ vastly, but a not-insignificant source of it wasn't objective information but rather surveys. Surveys that specifically ask "How does build quality compare to expectations". Which isn't a fair question because people hold different expectations for Teslas than other cars.

Randomizer42 3y ago

I will never buy a T$LA product. Garbage products, turd of a CEO.

3vidence 3y ago

In the market for a car here in Canada. Really loved the idea of an electric car / plug in hybrid but it feels like EVs are just not adequately designed for Canada. The main issues are (A) not enough charging infrastructure (fixable) and (B) poor battery performance in cold weather. I think the cold weather thing could be fixable but from my perspective it seems like EVs are designed with California in mind so there seems to be little incentive to fix those issues. Additionally Canada wants all new cars to be EVs by somewhere around 2030 but it seems like a not very well thought out plan. Personally I ended up going with a standard hybrid. - Fantastic mileage in the city. - Good cold weather performance. - Highest reliability by consumers reports and other publications. - No range anxiety. - Battery lasts a very long time since it is used less and stays at a medium charge.

bryanlarsen 3y ago
We went for a Model Y. The heat pump is way more efficient in the winter than resistive heating. Combine that with starting out at room temperature because it's garaged, and we see little winter range loss. We never have charging issues, and we've gone to rural Saskatchewan, tourist Quebec and all parts in between. The trans-Canada has great supercharger coverage, rural Saskatchewan has welders you can unplug and tourist Quebec has chargers at the hotels. I bet our battery lasts longer than yours. 99% of driving is local, we plug in at 50% and charge to 80%, which is a lot easier on a big battery like ours than the small battery you have. Even on road trips it basically stays between 20 and 80.
- 3vidence 3y ago
  Not really going to argue your points (they seem well researched!), however I think for most consumers there's still that last level of "thinking" required to feel comfortable having an EV as a primary vehicle. Including as you mentioned having a heated garage compared to people such as myself who have to rely on street parking which can comprise both the battery distance and the ability to consistently charge. Lastly I do think there's a catagory of people who take pride in figuring out how to make systems work for them specifically (in this case EVs in Canada). I myself am that way about many things in my life but when it comes to my vehicle i just want it to work. It's good to know that your experience is working though and hope for EV coverage to expand in the future.

buffington 3y ago

I own a Model 3, and one thing I didn't fully appreciate until a recent 2000+ mile roadtrip is how good the Tesla Super Charger network is. Even in remote parts of Nevada we were always within range of a Super Charger. Using the onboard nav system made that even better, since it's aware of how busy a station is, or if the station is even functional, and would route accordingly. I don't know much about other charging networks, but I've used non-Tesla chargers a handful of times over the past two years, and every time, it was a poor experience. They've been slow, some have stopped working a few minutes into a charge, or don't work at all. In two separate cases the chargers I drove to didn't actually exist, despite being directed to them by those networks' apps. In one case, they weren't built yet, and in another, the chargers weren't even properly mounted to the ground and getting blown around by the wind and leaning over as far as the underground cables would allow. Prior to my roadtrip the charging network wouldn't have been much of a selling point for me since I usually charge at home. But after? I think it's far more important than I realized.