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Better cognitive ability from less snacking of processed carbohydrates
- ddorian43 3y agoThe "professional" version of this is to do keto diet and get ~80%-90% of calories from fat and see the difference. The easiest to fix is DBT2, can use virtahealth.com for a prescription paid by insurance. The other harder problems are serious mental illnesses, but only small trials are going on, see https://metabolicmind.org/ https://metabolicmind.org/
- WesolyKubeczek 3y agoOn one hand, I’m glad ketobros at least raised enough awareness about keto in general that my GP doesn’t think I’m talking in tongues anymore and many doctors in my country actually accept that low carb or keto can be used for diabetes management. On the other hand, there exists evidence that hardcore keto just for weight loss doesn’t outperform non-ketogenic low carb, and you can even lose weight successfully on low fat, but these things are BIG whichever you choose: 1) lose all ultraprocessed and junk food, regardless of macros The results from low fat and low carb groups are approximately the same in long term outcomes, as long as both groups stop consuming junk food. 2) fix your sleep hygiene ASAP 3) get movement during the day 4) stop eating before evening About 3): my N=1 confirms that brisk walking even for 30 minutes does wonders to my blood glucose levels. There are also studies that confirm that long walks do lots of good and that it’s not just me. Hitting the gym is optional, and you can invent reasons to spend an hour a day or two walking. I’m positive that keto should be more for those who find it improving their mental state and diabetes; general population, not so much.
- ddorian43 3y agoThe difference is on keto it is hard to gain weight (I struggle a little for muscle gain with lifting weights) and on normal-carbs it is hard to lose weight. ------- > On the other hand, there exists evidence that hardcore keto just for weight loss doesn’t outperform non-ketogenic low carb > I’m positive that keto should be more for those who find it improving their mental state and diabetes; general population, not so much. Good luck in practice though! Good luck being a doctor or a personal trainer and telling that to your patients/clients (just eat a small ice-cream bro! just suffer through it). Not everybody is a body builder (they do the gain/cut thing). > Hitting the gym is optional This should not be optional. Unless you train in your job or something. >2) fix your sleep hygiene ASAP This and your other points should be unrelated to the diet. > About 3): my N=1 confirms Depends how "good" you want to feel and if you want to experiment with even better. Feel free to N=1 on yourself by fixing everything first, and only then, try a very-high-fat keto diet (~80% fat). You might be wrong on this one (many people are, meaning starting keto when they're already done everything else).
- LegitShady 3y agoMy doctor and nutritionist actually told me I need to get more calories from fat. I switched to keto but was getting way too many calories from protein. I was (and still sort of am) struggling to get healthy sources of fat that fit into the rest of my diet and don't waste carbs on food I don't really want to eat. getting most of your calories from fat is actually ridiculously hard for me. Its way easier to me to eat steak and cabbage and broccolli and tomatoes forever. Apparently thats not a good diet though. Wasting carbs to eat fat rich foods like avocado or dairy fat like butter/cream/cheese hurts my soul.
- ddorian43 3y ago> getting most of your calories from fat is actually ridiculously hard for me. You can ask your doctor or you can search online in a keto forum. Things that have personally worked for me: 1. pour a lot of olive oil (say 10 tablespoons) on salads. After eating the salad I just drink the olive oil. 2. Get MCT oil during the day in tea spoons. 3. (best/cheapest for me and I currently do) Get beef fat trimmings and fry/air-fry/slow-cook them (see https://www.instagram.com/p/CrhH9CBo1mC/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CrhH9CBo1mC/ for that and other high fat carnivore recipes)
- LegitShady 3y agoeating oil is pretty gross. I'll have to look into the beef fat thing. I started having coffee with cream and eating some eggs and avocado everyday but it seems there aren't that many sources of fat that aren't pure oil/fat that don't otherwise come with avocado.
- ddorian43 3y ago> eating oil is pretty gross It is. But you hopefully get used to it? Other examples: 1. eat only egg yolks (i'm actually alergic to egg whites) 2. Eat the foods with most carbs before gym. This way you can utilise some carbs for gym and you'll still keep high levels of ketones (see /r/ketogains protocol) 3. See the instagram account I linked. 4. See what they do for epilepsy (hint: they kinda drink oil because they need 90%) The beef fat trimmings are still kinda oil, just in nicer form and nicer taste. Literally eat 0.5kg-1kg of beef fat trimmings a day (they get 1/4 size after cooking)
- simmerup 3y agoAgree heavily. What I do: - 30 minute walk (or some exercise) after every meal. My mantra; if you're giving yourself fuel you need to use it. Otherwise it just stays in the bloodstream causing problems. - No processed carbs. - Limit fried fats. - No eating for 2-3 hours before bedtime. The way I feel is night and day than before I started this healthy lifestyle.
- sfjailbird 3y agoIt's probably a lot easier to quit carbs than fat. Most people just don't know that fat is a (healthy) option. Though, as you said, happily that is changing. (Edit to say, speaking as a certified ketobro, I don't think you should do keto all the time, forever. A break day or two every few weeks, and stretches of healthy mixed-diet eating, in my experience, gets you the same benefits)
- naasking 3y ago> It's probably a lot easier to quit carbs than fat. Most people just don't know that fat is a (healthy) option. Not just healthy, but essential. You need a certain amount of fats for your sex hormones to actually work, so unless you want to stop menstruating/not interested in having erections, keep eating healthy fats.
- tstrimple 3y agoThe "low fat" foods which just replace fat with sugar are the worst for me. I hate that they are advertising it as being "more healthy" when it's clearly not. I finally got my wife to switch away from Miracle Whip and just eat real mayo. There is sugar, especially HFCS, in so much stuff that shouldn't have it.
- WesolyKubeczek 3y agoWith HFCS instead of bona fide glucose sugar, you also risk getting NAFLD later in life. Liver’s capacity to process fructose appears to be lower than glucose.
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoNot just HFCS though. Regular cane sugar is 50% or so fructose. Real sugar coke isn't any healthier than HFCS coke. Where do you get glucose sugar?
- cultofmetatron 3y agoregular can sugar is almost entirely SUCROSE which your body breaks down into glucose and fructose. its not dumping a bunch of fructose into your body. furthermore, we have sensors in our body to inhibit sugar craving in the presence of glucose or sucrose. we have no such sensor for fructose. so even if you did have 50% pure fructose in cane sugar, you would drink less real sugar coke because you'd feel satisfied after drinking a much smaller amount than those HFCS abominations.
- jbotz 3y agoYes. I'd add a couple of items I have found to be important... 5) Limit consumption of (mostly) omega-6 polyunsaturated vegetable oils. Use virgin olive oil (mostly monounsaturated) and saturated fats (butter, ghee, coconut oil, even lard) instead. The exception is: try to get as much omega-3 as possible. 6) Eat foods with high and diverse micronutrient content or use supplements. It's really easy to be slightly deficient in some essential micronutrients. Especially magnesium, which is really important and deficiency is really common. Nuts and seafoods are good for both of these, but supplementation may be advisable. As for the fats, evidence continues to accumulate that contrary to "official" public health advise for the last 60 years or so, saturated fats are NOT harmful to cardiovascular health, certainly much less so than highly processed polyunsaturated fats (and almost all of them are processed in some way or other, because naturally they are hard to extract and spoil rapidly). Also saturated fats stand up much better to high heat, whereas polyunsaturated fats will always produce some trans-fats during pan or deep frying.
- pookha 3y agoI disagree. Whenever I need to get locked in and focus on complex tasks I eat foods high in nitrates and run (need carbs for that). Here's a study on the affects of nitrate's improving brain performance in older adults. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3018552/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3018552/ Ketosis has had the opposite effect for me and I've never been able to balance the keto-flu with my normal day-to-day activities. I feel like garbage.
- ddorian43 3y ago> able to balance the keto-flu with my normal day-to-day activities It's pretty easy to fix the flu. How long did it last for you?
- Brometheus 3y agoFor me one month. After that I stopped keto due to not being able to function at work the way I wanted.
- l5870uoo9y 3y agoI tried keto (to the extend it was possible without sacrificing every social event) and found that it ruined my cognitive ability. This is known as the "keto flu" and it made me sluggish, tired and gave me headaches. I just wasn't able to function properly. Naturally I am not condoning high carbohydrates diets, but I a variated diet with slight deviations based on personal preferences (and seasonality). I do tend to avoid to many carbohydrates and eat more green, fruit, meat and dairy products.
- ddorian43 3y agoThe keto flu lasts 1 or 2 week maximum if you do everything wrong. And it's pretty easy to fix.
- InCityDreams 3y ago>Naturally I am not condoning high carbohydrates diets, Why not? I eat proportionally an immense amount of cards. I also do long distance endurance events. No cards = no go.
- HPsquared 3y agoI find I'm sharper when slightly hungry.
- aatd86 3y agoFunnily I am not although it's one of the purported benefits of fasting which I have done quite often. On the other hand, I feel far less slugglish when I cut sugar. So fed, but less sugar (perhaps up to a point, not sure about ketones given the brain prefers sugars apparently) Another thing that helps since I don't drink coffee anymore is eating veal liver for energy levels. It's like an espresso shot, perhaps even better. Quick internet search showed me that it wasn't just an impression.
- ddorian43 3y ago> Funnily I am not although it's one of the purported benefits of fasting which I have done quite often. Maybe/probably you just have carb withdrawal and can't feel the effects ? My personal example is do keto. Stay some time in it so no carb withdrawal. Then try fasting on top. I see the difference, and is just like increasing fat ratio, so it's probably higher ketones in blood stream (too lazy to measure them during the day though).
- pookha 3y agoHere's my anecdotal experience with fasting and training (lifting). Something like 12 years ago I started fasting and training based on some of the regimes olympic marathon runners were putting out there at the time. I went 24 hours without food and did a set of leg workouts. Within minutes of leaving the gym I developed a fever and a pain in my back. When I checked myself into the emergency room I was expecting to hear that my appendix burst but had a serious conversation with the ER doctor about a giant tumor that they found in my retroperitoneal cavity. Wild shit. Years later I found out that studies have shown that fasting causes "Autophagy". .."Autophagy allows your body to break down and reuse old cell parts so your cells can operate more efficiently. It’s a natural cleaning out process that begins when your cells are stressed or deprived of nutrients. Researchers are studying autophagy’s role in potentially preventing and fighting disease." I'm of the opinion that had I not have fasted and did an intense workout I would have never have caught this stage II\III cancer in time. The malignant tumor's in that part of the body leave no physical symptoms. The next stop would have been the lungs and the brain...Take that for what it's worth.
- technocratius 3y agoFrom what I understand from TFA this study was merely observational in nature and did not involve any blind randomized interventions of eating habits to probe the effect on insulin resistance and cognitive capabilities. Yet another correlation-not-causation study in a field already littered with conflicting data....
- tonmoy 3y agoThe title is then false
- gavaw 3y ago[flagged]
- SkyBelow 3y agoI think this is a good time to point out the title of the study seems to be "Chronic refined carbohydrate consumption measured by glycemic load and variation in cognitive performance in healthy people", which is quite different than the title in a news article. I recommend always treating news reporting of science with a healthy level of skepticism, not driven from the assumption that the news will lie, but driven from the assumption that the news isn't written by scientists who understand the technicalities of scientific writing nor the existing body knowledge about the specific topic. Study link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886923000612?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01918...
- robertlagrant 3y agoI agree it's not technically lying, but it's definitely something bad when people who know they don't know enough about something still write about it.
- 11235813213455 3y agoThat would be an interesting coincidence if bright people were eating organic while dumb people were eating processed food
- stuckkeys 3y agoInteresting analysis. I drink hot water with Manuka honey. It makes me sleepy. Although I have to say that this experiment is somewhat inconclusive IMO. Insufficient data to make such hard claims. These tests should be done in conjunction with other parts of the world to see the true comparison and the observation. Sometimes, people in stress tend to eat more.
- consp 3y ago> It makes me sleepy. A sudden blood glucose spike can do that. Source: Being a type 1 diabetic. Drawing conclusions from just eating/drinking is however a bit optimistic since many variables are at play.
- 11235813213455 3y agohoney is not as beneficial as whole raw fruits, because thy lack the most important thing - that bees can't carry or even need - but that primates guts love and need: fiber
- moron4hire 3y agoSure. I'll just put this whole apple into my tea.
- 11235813213455 3y agodice it, excellent idea actually
- chaxor 3y agoBut then it's processed sugars! https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/10/for-then-against-high-saturated-fat-diets/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/10/for-then-against-high-...
- snapcaster 3y agoFor so called "rationalists" they sure seem to love bringing up this frankly moronic idea that "processing" is the same whether it's a factory with bleach and other chemicals or a person at home dicing fruits. Is it because the leader of the movement is a fat slob?
- PcChip 3y agoI've been on keto for over a decade and I feel like it keeps me mentally sharp. If I accidentally get carbs I feel very sluggish and like I can't think straight
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- amanaplanacanal 3y agoYeah my post-prandial crash was definitely caused by carbohydrate.
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- fsh 3y agoLooking at Fig. 2 of the original study [1], I can't see any significant effect of the studied variables (RGL1, RGL2, RGL3, E1, E2, and E3). Am I missing something, or is the standard for significance insanely low in this field? [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886923000612 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019188692...
- biorach 3y agoYet another nutrition study. here's a counterpoint: > Nutrition has made no progress. It has discovered no stable facts. Everything nutritionists have said, they have said the opposite ten or twenty years later (if not much sooner). They literally know nothing. After a century of countless experiments, the most common, most basic problem they’ve addressed—the optimal ratio of fat, protein, and carbohydrate—is completely unsolved. If they can’t figure that out, anything more sophisticated seems hopeless. https://metarationality.com/nutrition https://metarationality.com/nutrition
- londons_explore 3y agoI think the problem is it is unethical to do the kinds of experiments necessary to come up with any certain facts in the field of nutrition. At a minimum, you would need to force people to eat a certain diet, with no option to sneak in a few snacks while the researchers aren't watching. And you probably need to do this for a whole generation (ie. from birth until death) to really get good data to prove that diet X leads to better outcomes than diet Y.
- closeparen 3y agoSomething I have always wondered: many people get most/all their nutrition from an institutional cafeteria (college campus, military base, arguably tech company). Why couldn’t they consent to experimentation on what it serves them?
- L_226 3y agoHow do you know they didn't - how many people read the full T&C's for anything?
- mschuster91 3y agoMost people only get lunch from cafeterias, not to mention all the unhealthy shit we snack on all the time.
- FredPret 3y ago
- thanatropism 3y agoI find myself really sleepy after lunch and I'm trying to trace the problem by experimenting with my diet. But when I'm no longer able to function I reach for a ridiculous donut or similar and get the problem solved. (Yes, I might have narcolepsy, possibly induced by night-time medication that's still hanging around; I take morning modafinil at fairly high dosages and try to take breaks to interrupt the tolerance process. I'm also experimenting with yerba mate, but the overall effect of that seems more suited for late-night social situations than getting amped for work.)
- sgc 3y agoUnless you are talking about a scale beyond what I understand from your comment, just take a 20 minute nap? That is perfectly acceptable, and considered the smarter way to deal with afternoon doldrums, in much of the world.
- bigdict 3y agoTry eating the same lunch you are used to, just less of it.
- ec109685 3y agoMeasure your glucose before, after and when you are tired using a finger prick test. You might be spiking and then crashing.
- spirit557 3y agoLook into "reactive hypoglycemia" You could also get a c peptide test and a1c at the same time. While your a1c may be normal range, c peptide can tell you if you are having to overproduce insulin to keep your a1c normal. c peptide from what i read is like an a1c but for insulin. you may have hyperinsulinemia. just a suggestion
- PcChip 3y agowhat are you eating for lunch? is it lots of carbs?
- treeman79 3y agoGo into any autoimmune or chronic illness forum on Reddit or Facebook and you’ll find countless people that resolved or improved symptoms, including brain fog, by changing diet. Getting rid of most carbs and other inflammatory foods is the general theme of some diets. AIP diet in particular.
- this_user 3y agoNot only is that purely anecdotal, but it's also subject to survivorship bias and the placebo effect. The idea that carbs are somehow bad is ridiculous just from a purely biological POV of how the human body works. Glucose is an important fuel source for anaerobic energy generation. Try doing endurance exercise without any carbs, and you are going to have a really bad time.
- spirit557 3y ago> Try doing endurance exercise without any carbs, and you are going to have a really bad time. I prefer to only do my endurance exercises in a fasted state, anywhere between 12-24 hours. The only thing i ingest is some salt, magnesium and potassium and water. I have no problem and I feel great. 30 minutes on the bike with resistence turned up or jogging 2-3 miles. Ketones burn cleaner than glucose with less reactive byproducts. There is a study on pubmed that found when the brain has the choice between glucose and ketones in the bloodstream it chooses ketones. You don't need dietary carbs, your body can make its own glucose from proteins if it needs. There's plenty of research on this.
- amanaplanacanal 3y agoIt appears that fully keto adapted folks do just fine running on ketones.
- taeric 3y agoChange is unreasonably effective at getting differences. I'm personally of the opinion that cutting sugar is a good idea. That said, I can't discount that anyone that crests the motivational hump to make a change, is also as likely to push through in other ways, as well.
- wodenokoto 3y agoWhat is the difference between processed carbs and not processed carbs?
- ricardobeat 3y agoRefined carbs have had most of the other nutritional content stripped away, especially fibers which slow down digestion and glucose absorption. (not a nutritionist)
- spirit557 3y agoOne example would be any flour, when they pulverize grains into a fine powder it completely changes the glycemic index/load. Another example could be a whole apple vs apple juice, where they remove the matrix of fiber or flesh of the apple into a liquid that is almost purely sugar and water.
- chaxor 3y agoGood question. I don't think there's any real answer to this at all. https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/10/for-then-against-high-saturated-fat-diets/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/03/10/for-then-against-high-...
- snapcaster 3y agoThis is a really bad takeaway from this article. Differentiation between processed and unprocessed is actually really easy if you haven't had your brain melted by rationalists. Even from the article you linked we get: "I think the most likely dietary change I make is to try to avoid foods with soybean, corn, or safflower oil, since this is probably a good stand-in for “foods processed enough that they count as processed foods and you should avoid them”
- greenhearth 3y agoNone of these articles give a concrete example of what a "processed food" is. They say "sugary snacks" are processed. So if I bake a cake with whole wheat flour and a little sugar and eggs, is this processed? Or like "processed foods are high in carbohydrates." So should I stay away from all bread? What is the actual carbohydrate count in a piece of bread that would be considered processed? They say stay away from frozen food, which is processed, but they say to eat fish. A lot of fish is sold frozen. Is this fish processed?
- snapcaster 3y agoYou're getting too hung up on "processed" stop eating shit food made in gigantic factories with ingredients you can't pronounce or explain their inclusion. That's it, it's literally that easy
- greenhearth 3y agoI am talking about the article. I don't eat any factory made food. I am just wondering what is considered bad food by these researchers. And besides food can be manipulated in not just factories. I know a lot of small places that cure meat and this is considered processed food, as it is high in salt and preservative.
- timbit42 3y agoFood is considered processed if it is not in its natural state. Some minimal processing is okay because sometimes things can't be eaten in their natural state. The more something is processed, generally the less healthy it is.
- paulddraper 3y ago"Processed" means different than its natural form. Examples: * White flour has the the germ and bran removed, leaving on the endosperm. * Table sugar has everything filtered out from cane/beat except for the pure carbohydrate. * Fruit juice has the fleshy parted removed, leaving only the liquid juice. Obviously: 1. It's a spectrum. Some foods are more processed than others. 2. It's a heuristic to promote good nutrition. Processed doesn't necessarily mean bad, but 4/5 times it facilitates poor nutrition and/or overeating.
- MisterBastahrd 3y agoIf you want to know how to eat, just ask someone whose job or hobby it is to compete in the fitness category of your choosing. For example, if you want to know how to maximize muscle growth through eating, ask a competition level bodybuilder. Yes, they'll be on gear, but they'll still be able to tell you how you should eat and with the proper ratios to maximize muscle growth. They'll also be able to tell you how to eat cleanly because cutting weight is part of their competitive training cycle. Likewise, if you want to know how to eat healthy, ask a fitness model. They make their money by looking good for cameras and will want to maximize that through their diet. These folks aren't looking for fads, they've already learned, implemented, and lived what actually works from others who were also competitive in these fields.
- rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y agoThis is what I was thinking while reading the poisonous replies in the other top comment. “Nutrition still does not know what we should and should not to eat”… well what is your goal? Too much doubt is being cast on an entire body of knowledge as if elite athletes do not exist and as if nutritionists have not developed tried and tested ways to optimize performance towards a specific sport.
- cultofmetatron 3y agogreat advice! so many people decide "I'm going to lose weight" but then dont' bother to educate themselves in the slightest. Im in the middle of my own weight loss journey. After two failed attempts in the past, I researched for a full week on youtube finding the best exercise and nutrition gurus and seeing what the commonalities between them were. after that I put together a diet and exercise plan based on my goals. 2 months in and I'm at the weight I was at when I was 14 years old. On top of that, I'm able to do 5 pullups in a row and squat 250 lbs (which I could definitely not do when I was 14). education is key to any endevour and knowing who to get yoru advice from is the first critical step.
- throwuwu 3y agoResults may vary. I find my cognitive performance is best either when I’m fasted or loaded with simple sugars.
- gnicholas 3y agoa relevant video on the incentives that drive publications in nutrition, and why these studies are unlikely to be accurate (in the aggregate): https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCUibd0E2kdF9N9e-EmIbUew https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCUibd0E2kdF9N9e-EmIbUew
- tpoacher 3y ago> The findings reveal that if the participants had a habit of eating a lot of processed carbs, especially during snack times, their performance in cognitive tests dropped off. False. They found that when people's cognitive ability was starting to wane, they were more inclined to reach for processed carbs. The novelty here is in misrepresenting that correlation as being causal in the reverse direction, in the absence of any real evidence to support this.
- pumanoir 3y agoThat quote sounds like it could be explained by Dan Kahneman as a symptom of 'ego depletion'
- dandare 3y agoWhile the article talks about PROCESSED carbohydrates, the study talks about REFINED carbohydrates. What are these and how the impact differs from unprocessed or unrefined carbohydrates?