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I was initially skeptical, but seeing Mokulele Airlines (an airline serving Hawaii) flash by on the carousel made me consider that this might have at least some

I was initially skeptical, but seeing Mokulele Airlines (an airline serving Hawaii) flash by on the carousel made me consider that this might have at least some real-world uses. It's insane to me that the vast majority of inter-island travel in Hawaii (an archipelago where generally each island is visible from the next) is via jet aircraft. You have to spend hours (especially if you're checking bags) getting to the airport early, going through security, waiting at the gate, taxiing, etc ... for a 20 minute flight. There used to be a ferry between Oahu and Maui but it got killed due to real and perceived environmental impact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Superferry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Superferry A light electric ferry service like this, directly between say, Ala Wai and Lahaina harbors, skipping airport/TSA nonsense, could be a very successful premium product. I just hope from there it could be scaled up so that it wouldn't remain just a niche offering for the rich.

qingcharles 3y ago
Crazy. Suspended due to "the potential to bring drugs and homeless people to Kauaʻi".
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  Not at all. It seems they suspended it because of neverending lawsuits regarding environmental impact. Chopping up whales was apparently a big concern, so I suppose a ground effect service might alleviate some of those concerns(just kidding, I'm sure the environmental lawsuits were really just about control and not a genuine care for the environment)
  - pnpnp 3y ago
    That’s a great point, and also kind of insane to think about. The area around Maui has TONS of whales part of the year… many of them breaching. I wonder how high these things fly vs how high a humpback can jump out of the water. I think the rule is 1/2 of your wingspan to be in ground effect, but it has been a long time since I’ve studied the exact numbers.
- jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
  This is a perennial favorite of transportation NIMBYs. Where I live extending the light rail the last little bit over the river to Washington state is a no brainer, but it's been paralyzed by decades of opposition from suburbanites in Vancouver Wa. My friend's dad is/was one of the key activists. He'd stand in planning meetings and no joke scream about how "criminals" were gonna ride the train up, break into someone's house, steal their tv, then ride the train back. Lots of saying "crime train" over and over again. We have solid data that building transit lines actually decreases crime. This man is a credentialed civil engineer. He rejected that evidence without consideration every time we put it in front of him. I have zero respect for these people. If you talk to them for just a few seconds it becomes readily apparent the root is just straight up racism, but they don't wanna own it overtly.
  - jimbob45 3y ago
    If he can show any occurrence of that ever happening, then you come off as dishonest and disinterested in the needs of the community. Is it really so difficult to cater to his needs as well? There’s surely a better compromise than “Everyone who disagrees with me is a racist”.
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      > Is it really so difficult to cater to his needs as well? The man wants no transit because "crime train" while the region needs transit. What middle ground do you propose? Not every criticism and loud individual is worth listening to.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
      This man is factually a racist. I am not simply labeling him that because we disagree as you insinuate, having no actual information on the situation. And no, I see zero reason to tolerate what is clearly bad faith behavior.
      - AYBABTME 3y ago
        In the text you shared, you imply that other readers should come to the conclusion that he's a racist because he's against public transit due to fear of crime being imported. But you made no connections as to how his claims of crime import were related to a race component. So it's understandable that readers might not find your "racist" labeling justified based on the facts that you shared. He might be a racist but based on what you said, it's not clear what may make him so.
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  Reminds me of how Bob Moses built the bridges of Long Island too low for buses to pass through [0]. Talk about structural racism. [0] https://archive.ph/OTnMP https://archive.ph/OTnMP
  - rootusrootus 3y ago
    The wikipedia article on Moses claims buses (and commercial vehicles, which were another alleged target of his architectural decisions) do pass through those bridges to this day.
gedy 3y ago
> The protesters' concerns were that a ferry of this size could strike and kill whales during its voyages despite this never occurring during the years the faster Seaflite interisland ferries operated. NIMBYs ruin everything, I doubt they were really concerned about the whales.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  Read on - what they were really afraid of was the dirty/smelly poors coming onto their precious island. You see the same BS with bike paths through residential neighborhoods. Despite studies showing that bike paths increase property values, residents bitch and moan about safety/crime. They basically figure that poor/non-white people will bike into their neighborhood and rape/pillage/burn everything. So you get a bunch of environmental concern-trolls funded by wealthy people who don't want to admit that, really, it's about race/class.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > Despite studies showing that bike paths increase property values Except that these studies are rather suspect and/or very narrow. The situation for actual residential neighborhoods is at most unclear.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Crime does seem to center around heavily developed public transit corridors, but it is difficult to tell if economic or transit accessibility are the primary drivers of increased crime (probably a bit of both).
      - cyberax 3y ago
        I'm not saying _anything_ about crime. I'm disputing the assertion that bike lanes inevitably increase property value.
        noduerme 3y ago
wthalheimer 3y ago
Superferry was a huge case study for us. We went to Hawaii, interviewed everyone involved, and learned the lessons. We're taking a different approach that focuses on community and environmental considerations first. Look for more exciting news in Hawaii soon!
- lastofthemojito 3y ago
  That's great to hear. Good luck!
- piloto_ciego 3y ago
  Are you working here? I would like to be involved in work like this when I get done with my masters… I was a pilot for many years and we need more sustainable air travel to rural and coastal communities.
- nwienert 3y ago
  How to follow along for news?
- slashtom 3y ago
  This is going to be an uphill battle in Hawaii. Hawaii is notoriously difficult to do business in, Hawaiian Airlines has become entrenched in protecting these routes, Southwest has been moderately effective but it's at a significant cost, and mokulele has had some serious negative press over the safety of their aircraft. Part of the super ferry demise wasn't just NIMBYs' but entrenched politics and money.. glad you folks are brining some innovation and wish you luck on some much needed disruption.
  - vanrysss 3y ago
    I recently flew between Oahu and Molokai. My return flight was delayed seven hours. I literally could have paddled a canoe home faster. Mokulele deserves all the negative press it gets.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
jtsuken 3y ago
To skip TSA nonsense you just need to skip TSA nonsense. Outside of the US airtravel is still relatively similar to rail. You have to be on time, you have to handle the baggage, but you can walk through xray and security within minutes and only need to show the ticket on your phone. An electric wing-in-ground-effect aircraft still looks like an airplane and might still fall under the same regulations as any other airplane. In any case TSA objectively does not add much security[1] and does cause issues e.g. for people who have names with similar spellings to those on a no-fly-list [2]. But that aside, the technology is great for short distance travel. Climbing to 2-5 thousand foot to travel some 50 miles is clearly insane. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Security_Administration#Criticism_and_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Security_Admini... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#False_positives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#False_positives
- gaoryrt 3y ago
  > Outside of the US airtravel is still relatively similar to rail. Not China, I usually try to get to the airport 1 hour before take off. But for the train, 10 minutes is enough.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > Outside of the US airtravel is still relatively similar to rail. You have to be on time, you have to handle the baggage, but you can walk through xray and security within minutes and only need to show the ticket on your phone. Same if you have Pre and Clear. I usually get to the airport 30-40m early. That said I'm usually at the train station 10m before departure with bags.
  - rwmj 3y ago
    Why don't all the bad actors just apply for the same programme?
    - cj 3y ago
      Clear doesn't let you skip security. It basically just allows you to cut to the front of the line for a fee. You still have to go through the x-ray machines, etc. TSA Pre actually does reduce security requirements (e.g. you can keep your shoes on...) in exchange for, I've always assumed, a mini-background check when you apply for the program.
dmurray 3y ago
> It's insane to me that the vast majority of inter-island travel in Hawaii (an archipelago where generally each island is visible from the next) is via jet aircraft. Why jets? In the Caribbean, where distances are longer, turboprop aircraft are standard for island hopping and I thought these made more economic sense for short distances.
- fayylov 3y ago
  [dead]
- vanrysss 3y ago
  Passenger load. They do use prop planes on routes with less passengers.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    Pretty much, I've done the Seattle-Vancouver hop in a 737 and that's only 130 or so miles.
- chipsa 3y ago
  Throughput. There’s enough people going from one island to another, that is cheaper on pilots to have one bigger plane than several smaller ones, and it’s easier to fit into the limited number of slots for take off and landing.
ricardobeat 3y ago
The wiki page doesn’t have a section on perceived environmental impact, do you have more info on that? From the description of the ship they tried to use environmentally-friendly tech (despite it being a bit of a behemoth), but I know nothing about the local ecosystem. I imagined the area would already have heavy boat traffic from cruises and the military.
mhb 3y ago
Why not make an electric Superferry? Presumably addresses the environmental issues, more forgiving on battery weight and volume than a plane and won't ever need to make an emergency landing.
- dghughes 3y ago
  Ferries in littoral waters and whales don't mix. There is a ferry that goes from NS to Maine and it's been known to bash a whale or two.
  - lastofthemojito 3y ago
    Fun fact: The current ferry vessel between Bar Harbor, Maine and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia is literally the Hawaii Superferry vessel repurposed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HST-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HST-2

qingcharles 3y ago

Crazy. Suspended due to "the potential to bring drugs and homeless people to Kauaʻi".

oh_sigh 3y ago
Not at all. It seems they suspended it because of neverending lawsuits regarding environmental impact. Chopping up whales was apparently a big concern, so I suppose a ground effect service might alleviate some of those concerns(just kidding, I'm sure the environmental lawsuits were really just about control and not a genuine care for the environment)
- pnpnp 3y ago
  That’s a great point, and also kind of insane to think about. The area around Maui has TONS of whales part of the year… many of them breaching. I wonder how high these things fly vs how high a humpback can jump out of the water. I think the rule is 1/2 of your wingspan to be in ground effect, but it has been a long time since I’ve studied the exact numbers.
jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
This is a perennial favorite of transportation NIMBYs. Where I live extending the light rail the last little bit over the river to Washington state is a no brainer, but it's been paralyzed by decades of opposition from suburbanites in Vancouver Wa. My friend's dad is/was one of the key activists. He'd stand in planning meetings and no joke scream about how "criminals" were gonna ride the train up, break into someone's house, steal their tv, then ride the train back. Lots of saying "crime train" over and over again. We have solid data that building transit lines actually decreases crime. This man is a credentialed civil engineer. He rejected that evidence without consideration every time we put it in front of him. I have zero respect for these people. If you talk to them for just a few seconds it becomes readily apparent the root is just straight up racism, but they don't wanna own it overtly.
- jimbob45 3y ago
  If he can show any occurrence of that ever happening, then you come off as dishonest and disinterested in the needs of the community. Is it really so difficult to cater to his needs as well? There’s surely a better compromise than “Everyone who disagrees with me is a racist”.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > Is it really so difficult to cater to his needs as well? The man wants no transit because "crime train" while the region needs transit. What middle ground do you propose? Not every criticism and loud individual is worth listening to.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 3y ago
    This man is factually a racist. I am not simply labeling him that because we disagree as you insinuate, having no actual information on the situation. And no, I see zero reason to tolerate what is clearly bad faith behavior.
    - AYBABTME 3y ago
      In the text you shared, you imply that other readers should come to the conclusion that he's a racist because he's against public transit due to fear of crime being imported. But you made no connections as to how his claims of crime import were related to a race component. So it's understandable that readers might not find your "racist" labeling justified based on the facts that you shared. He might be a racist but based on what you said, it's not clear what may make him so.
jnsaff2 3y ago
Reminds me of how Bob Moses built the bridges of Long Island too low for buses to pass through [0]. Talk about structural racism. [0] https://archive.ph/OTnMP https://archive.ph/OTnMP
- rootusrootus 3y ago
  The wikipedia article on Moses claims buses (and commercial vehicles, which were another alleged target of his architectural decisions) do pass through those bridges to this day.

gedy 3y ago

> The protesters' concerns were that a ferry of this size could strike and kill whales during its voyages despite this never occurring during the years the faster Seaflite interisland ferries operated. NIMBYs ruin everything, I doubt they were really concerned about the whales.

KennyBlanken 3y ago
Read on - what they were really afraid of was the dirty/smelly poors coming onto their precious island. You see the same BS with bike paths through residential neighborhoods. Despite studies showing that bike paths increase property values, residents bitch and moan about safety/crime. They basically figure that poor/non-white people will bike into their neighborhood and rape/pillage/burn everything. So you get a bunch of environmental concern-trolls funded by wealthy people who don't want to admit that, really, it's about race/class.
- cyberax 3y ago
  > Despite studies showing that bike paths increase property values Except that these studies are rather suspect and/or very narrow. The situation for actual residential neighborhoods is at most unclear.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Crime does seem to center around heavily developed public transit corridors, but it is difficult to tell if economic or transit accessibility are the primary drivers of increased crime (probably a bit of both).
    - cyberax 3y ago
      I'm not saying _anything_ about crime. I'm disputing the assertion that bike lanes inevitably increase property value.
      - noduerme 3y ago

wthalheimer 3y ago

Superferry was a huge case study for us. We went to Hawaii, interviewed everyone involved, and learned the lessons. We're taking a different approach that focuses on community and environmental considerations first. Look for more exciting news in Hawaii soon!

lastofthemojito 3y ago
That's great to hear. Good luck!
piloto_ciego 3y ago
Are you working here? I would like to be involved in work like this when I get done with my masters… I was a pilot for many years and we need more sustainable air travel to rural and coastal communities.
nwienert 3y ago
How to follow along for news?
slashtom 3y ago
This is going to be an uphill battle in Hawaii. Hawaii is notoriously difficult to do business in, Hawaiian Airlines has become entrenched in protecting these routes, Southwest has been moderately effective but it's at a significant cost, and mokulele has had some serious negative press over the safety of their aircraft. Part of the super ferry demise wasn't just NIMBYs' but entrenched politics and money.. glad you folks are brining some innovation and wish you luck on some much needed disruption.
- vanrysss 3y ago
  I recently flew between Oahu and Molokai. My return flight was delayed seven hours. I literally could have paddled a canoe home faster. Mokulele deserves all the negative press it gets.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

jtsuken 3y ago

To skip TSA nonsense you just need to skip TSA nonsense. Outside of the US airtravel is still relatively similar to rail. You have to be on time, you have to handle the baggage, but you can walk through xray and security within minutes and only need to show the ticket on your phone. An electric wing-in-ground-effect aircraft still looks like an airplane and might still fall under the same regulations as any other airplane. In any case TSA objectively does not add much security[1] and does cause issues e.g. for people who have names with similar spellings to those on a no-fly-list [2]. But that aside, the technology is great for short distance travel. Climbing to 2-5 thousand foot to travel some 50 miles is clearly insane. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Security_Administration#Criticism_and_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_Security_Admini... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#False_positives https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#False_positives

gaoryrt 3y ago
> Outside of the US airtravel is still relatively similar to rail. Not China, I usually try to get to the airport 1 hour before take off. But for the train, 10 minutes is enough.
arcticbull 3y ago
> Outside of the US airtravel is still relatively similar to rail. You have to be on time, you have to handle the baggage, but you can walk through xray and security within minutes and only need to show the ticket on your phone. Same if you have Pre and Clear. I usually get to the airport 30-40m early. That said I'm usually at the train station 10m before departure with bags.
- rwmj 3y ago
  Why don't all the bad actors just apply for the same programme?
  - cj 3y ago
    Clear doesn't let you skip security. It basically just allows you to cut to the front of the line for a fee. You still have to go through the x-ray machines, etc. TSA Pre actually does reduce security requirements (e.g. you can keep your shoes on...) in exchange for, I've always assumed, a mini-background check when you apply for the program.

dmurray 3y ago

> It's insane to me that the vast majority of inter-island travel in Hawaii (an archipelago where generally each island is visible from the next) is via jet aircraft. Why jets? In the Caribbean, where distances are longer, turboprop aircraft are standard for island hopping and I thought these made more economic sense for short distances.

fayylov 3y ago
[dead]
vanrysss 3y ago
Passenger load. They do use prop planes on routes with less passengers.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  Pretty much, I've done the Seattle-Vancouver hop in a 737 and that's only 130 or so miles.
chipsa 3y ago
Throughput. There’s enough people going from one island to another, that is cheaper on pilots to have one bigger plane than several smaller ones, and it’s easier to fit into the limited number of slots for take off and landing.

ricardobeat 3y ago

The wiki page doesn’t have a section on perceived environmental impact, do you have more info on that? From the description of the ship they tried to use environmentally-friendly tech (despite it being a bit of a behemoth), but I know nothing about the local ecosystem. I imagined the area would already have heavy boat traffic from cruises and the military.

mhb 3y ago

Why not make an electric Superferry? Presumably addresses the environmental issues, more forgiving on battery weight and volume than a plane and won't ever need to make an emergency landing.

dghughes 3y ago
Ferries in littoral waters and whales don't mix. There is a ferry that goes from NS to Maine and it's been known to bash a whale or two.
- lastofthemojito 3y ago
  Fun fact: The current ferry vessel between Bar Harbor, Maine and Yarmouth, Nova Scotia is literally the Hawaii Superferry vessel repurposed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HST-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HST-2