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I live in a country where such a ban on certain "enemy" social networks was implemented a few years ago. What will happen is this. Teens will download a shit
by egorfine 3y ago
I live in a country where such a ban on certain "enemy" social networks was implemented a few years ago.
What will happen is this.
Teens will download a shit ton of VPN applications, the vast majority of which are specifically produced and marketed by the enemy to circumvent said ban. Then all users' phone traffic gets routed via the enemy VPN instead of just the social app's requests.
Win-win for both sides:
- the government gets populistic approval from the eldery population;
- the adversary gets way more US users' data than they ever dreamed of.
- newsclues 3y agoGood excuse to crack down on VPNs that don't provide backdoors next.
- MadSudaca 3y agoLet's say establishing policies to reduce the use of TikTok in the population is the right move. What policies would you suggest?
- egorfine 3y agoThe more I think about it during the last years the less idea I have of what could be a working solution.
- jerrre 3y agoWould also depend on the reason you want to reduce it. Privacy? Data? Attention? Propaganda?
- shawabawa3 3y agoBan advertising to minors Huge fines for being caught knowingly serving ads to minors
- TeMPOraL 3y agoWhat would be the specific harm of TikTok? Is it because of China, or because of this style of social media apps? If it's because of China, then ban TikTok and subsidize a competitor app - but be serious about it. Be ready to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on keeping the app free and servers up for years, sponsoring hundreds of content creators, dragging celebrities in to produce exclusive content, burning tons of money on all kinds of loss-generating marketing bullshit, like "publish a video from $concert, best 100 videos win a Nintendo Switch", for each concert in the state/country for the next few years. Point being, if you can provide a TikTok alternative and make it extremely attractive, even if by literally giving away hundreds of dollars to each new user, then kids won't care about using TikTok anymore. Now, if it's not about China but teenage use of social media? Put an absurdly high tax on smartphones. Like 200%-1000%. That will make sure they become unavailable to a typical teenager. Beyond that? I don't think you can do much about it directly, or in the immediate term.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoIt's a hypothetical. Hypothetically suppose we all agree that TikTok usage should be reduced. You are a state legislator. What do you do?
- TeMPOraL 3y agoMake using it a criminal offense with minimum mandatory sentence of 5 years in prison.
- juliusgeo 3y agoI would like to make the modest proposal that a more effective way of reducing usage would be to make it punishable by summary execution.
- TeMPOraL 3y agoOh no. The US isn't some kind of totalitarian country to do summary executions for petty crimes. Why waste the free labor?
- badpun 3y agoLet's punish every act that we don't want to see with death (or, at a minimum, cutting off a hand), that will solve world's problems for sure.
- onionisafruit 3y agoIn that hypothetical I identify the federal policy I think would be effective and vote for the US rep, Senate and presidential candidates I think are most likely to enact that policy. As a state legislature I probably have some sway with my constituents, so I also publicly endorse that policy and candidates. What I’m getting at is this isn’t an issue for the state level.
- bardan 3y agoSometimes people say "you only hate TikTok because it's a foreign company doing it better than American social media". Maybe that's right, maybe TikTok is just doing it better than American social media platforms, but what have we been saying about American social media for the last decade? (generally not positive things) Maybe at some point this was all going to hit some kind of threshold where it is just no longer reasonable to call the effects of social media a net good. Maybe TikTok has passed that threshold. We can give them a trophy for that, but then plan some ways to finally restrict social media's addictive and anxiety-provoking qualities. So restrictions on infinite scroll, or require the user to actually press a button before the next video starts. I'm sure there are a lot of ideas, and people more qualified than me to suggest them, but I think these two alone would be reasonable restrictions. It disturbs me that TikTok being a Chinese company is being used right now as an excuse as to why these social media platforms shouldn't be made to change their deliberately addictive designs.
- vasco 3y agoWhat does the government have to do with what apps I use in my free time? Are they also going to force me to read nonfiction instead of fiction because it's "the right move"? This sounds like some dystopian crap. What committee decides which apps are good for you or not and how long is long enough?
- PurpleRamen 3y ago> What does the government have to do with what apps I use in my free time? Because it's literally their job: Protect the citizen. They may not do a good job all the time, most times they are even very bad. But nonetheless do they try and prevent most of the worst cases. And TikTok is so insane efficient in what it's doing, the line between benefit and harm is so thin, it could easily turn into a "worst case"-scenario if people don't observe it careful enough.
- robertlagrant 3y agoIt's also their job to protect the citizen from future governments by not giving themselves too much control.
- wildrhythms 3y agoThe job of policymakers is to: make policy. Protecting the citizen may or may not be a part of the policy they implement.
- PurpleRamen 3y agoPolicies are a tool, not the goal.
- nerdbert 3y agoWhat about propaganda outlets like Newsmax and OANN? Many would argue they've had far more harmful impact on the USA than Tiktok ever could. Where do you draw the line? It has to be domestic propaganda? Can you prove that those don't have foreign links?
- setgree 3y agoPolitics is downstream of culture. if we wanted to reduce social media use, we could try to change internet habits and attitudes writ large. Something like a “put down the phone and talk to people” campaign, a la anti-smoking/drinking/drunk driving efforts of yore. That way it doesn’t feel like teens in particular are being targeted by out of touch adults. At least, not as much.
- TeMPOraL 3y agoUnfortunately, culture is downstream of economics and technology, so starting from the political end is going to be... an uphill battle.
- onionisafruit 3y agoIt’s all a lazy river flowing in a circle. Everything is downstream of everything else.
- TeMPOraL 3y agoIt's not, but the analogy breaks down here anyway. I.e. technically everything influences everything else, but some things influence others much stronger than the reverse. My usual water-based analogy is that culture and society is like a water flowing downhill; economic situation (all the incentives people have) forms the landscape. Technology is what sculpts the landscape. The flow of water does have its own influence - over time, it smoothens out rough edges, and can even forge its own path when the landscape is opposing water too hard. But mostly, the water conforms to the shape of the terrain. Same is with culture - it softens the behaviors of people following incentives, and can reform some aspects of the economy that just don't feel right - but mostly, the economy pretty much determines what culture develops, what people do, what people think. New technologies alter economic landscape quickly, but we don't have much control over when they show up or how the landscape is altered.
- CapstanRoller 3y agoMaterial conditions stand above all else. Ideology withers when confronted by reality.
- pjc50 3y agoLet's say establishing policies to reduce the use of Fox News in the population is the right move. What policies would you suggest? Let's say establishing policies to reduce the use of firearms in the population is the right move. What policies would you suggest? (now, people are going to pop up with the obvious objections to those. What is it about US users of TikTok that suddenly makes the 1st Amendment and all those free speech concerns that people bring up not apply?)
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- tibbydudeza 3y agoOr vendors that currently sell cases and repair screens will then offer a service to sideload such apps for teens and install who knows what other stuff on phones for a fee from a customer and malware vendors. The Prohibition did now work back then and only made the Mafia rich and made them push drugs when it was lifted.
- egorfine 3y agoExactly. This is what happened here.
- mrguyorama 3y agoExcept prohibition did exactly what it was designed to do. At the start of prohibition, alcohol consumption dropped to 30% of what it was before, and even after people figured out the loopholes and tried working around it, alcohol consumption peaked at like 65% of previous consumption, which was massive.
- ultrarunner 3y agoIf the actual goal was to improve safety, health, and quality of life in perpetuity, I’m skeptical that it did what it was designed to do. A law that simply imprisoned everyone might also improve some metrics, but at great cost. The argument is presumably that the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
- williamcotton 3y agoIsn’t this like banning Tsingtao but leaving literally everyone other brand of beer, wine and liquor on the shelves?
- amelius 3y agoMeanwhile nobody is speaking about the real enemy here, which is data-brokers who will gladly sell any data of US citizens to evil countries. We would be better served by a total ban on user tracking technologies.
- Matl 3y ago'Evil countries' sounds so propagandized, but at least the pinnancle of democratic government won't do it. Oh wait. [1]. 1- https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/apps-are-selling-your-location-data-the-us-government-is-buying/2020/02/09/9d09475e-49e2-11ea-b4d9-29cc419287eb_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/apps-are-selling-you...
- chrisandchris 3y agoThere are two types of countries in the world: The ones with the companies that buy all the data and give it to the government without the users ok. The others, which don't do that with a company but rather a government institution. Can't tell which is the evil one.
- twelve40 3y agodata brokers like who? and what the hell would China even do with my data? or which countries is my data supposedly sold to?
- amelius 3y agohttps://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/opinion/intel-data-brokers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/opinion/intel-data-broker...
- twelve40 3y ago> will sell data on anyone in their database, including current address, phone number and arrest records I see. My current address, my phone number and something called my (public) arrest records are being sold to evil China at $10/pop. My phone number must be selling like hotcakes!
- kranke155 3y agoTikTok is evil. Let’s stop with the whataboutism
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- sumedh 3y agoWhat is the definition of evil when it comes to TikToK?
- kranke155 3y agoMassive data collection being funnelled directly to the benefit of an adversarial totalitarian state. Often coordinating to target intelligence and political targets. It’s a technological wing for a totalitarian intelligence department. That’s what it is. It also has social media functions, but it also has an intelligence function. If you think “well the US does it too” well I invite you to move to Shanghai and live the rest of your days there and tell me you feel just as free as in New York City. Also, two wrongs don’t make a right.
- pastacacioepepe 3y ago> move to Shanghai and live the rest of your days there and tell me you feel just as free as in New York City. In what ways would your freedom be impacted in Shangai vs NYC? Because I know or a fact I'd able to live a normal life in Shangai. Work, grow kids, go out and enjoy entertainment, have good healthcare and so on. Is it the ability to vote your president that makes or break "freedom" for you? Well apparently ~40% of USAmericans have given that up as the average voter turnout in the US is ~60%. The vote you are offered in the US is a Hobson's choice, it's a choice between bad and worse.
- kranke155 3y ago> In what ways would your freedom be impacted in Shangai vs NYC? if that's actually what you believe in, no difference. To most people the differences are obvious.
- dumpHero2 3y agoOR, only some teens will use VPN, others will look for alternatives such as Instagram reels.
- bitlax 3y agoThis wouldn't be one-for-one; most would be stymied by the higher barrier to entry or would already be using a VPN for other reasons.
- Nanana909 3y agoIMO this sounds a bit more like an argument for banning the "vast majority" of VPN apps on the Google/App stores apparently re-routing all traffic to enemies (though I'm skeptical) and less of an argument as to whether or not TikTok should be banned.
- ultrarunner 3y agoSo it’s bans all the way down? Maybe prohibition will work this time.
- hgsgm 3y agoIt's always been weird that the US border is legally 100miles thick around the USA, for customs and immigration, but the Internet cables don't have borders.
- zackees 3y ago[dead]
- cableshaft 3y agoAt least in this case, the 'enemy VPN' can just be a different US state. Not the case for your country though.
- egorfine 3y agoFair.
- williamcotton 3y agoMy wife is an 8th grade social studies teacher at a public school in Texas. I spent yesterday in her classroom as the resident technology expert and answered questions about semiconductor manufacturing, neural networks and cryptocurrencies in discussions about trade-offs with technology. For one, the kids don’t really use TikTok that much and use a handful of apps. Different cliques used different apps more than others. They understood the geopolitical issues with TikTok and very few cared enough about TikTok in particular. They would all just use Reels or some other app more often.
- erenyeager 3y agoThis may be the case for the subset polled but TikTok is wildly popular with teens and for good reason, it’s the most “organic” feeling social media app with an addictive algorithm. Also TikTok allowed the expression of a lot of speech and ideas that had previously been more suppressed on other social media outlets because of political reasons, for example. YouTube and instagram are far more moderated in favor of American bias compared to TikTok, and it shows by how careful YouTube creators are with what they say. Instagram was found to suppress political speech of, for example, Palestinian rights activists during the removal of Palestinians from Sheikh Jarrah by Israeli forces.
- Apofis 3y agoOur teens aren't this determined t use a banned platform, don't bet on them suddenly buying VPN services just to use TikTok. It's like saying "oh look Elon bought Twitter and suddenly the select few of our special users will flee to Mastadon as a result and Twitter is dead." Just a bad bet. Convenience is king.
- tomtai 3y agoNobody is expecting teens (or any other user in Montana) to pay for a VPN...they'll use a free one. TikTok is a far more inviting & engaging platform than Twitter at the end of the day.
- archibaldJ 3y agoquite different though. The ban in china is a full Qing-dynasty-style suppression of free speech and the organizing of large-scale protest. The ban here is due to concerns about data privacy because the users are not tech-savvy enough to consider that. I don't think the later will force the users to resort to a progressive solution like vpn.
- egorfine 3y agoNah, I'm not in China. I think that censorship in China is a whole different and quite unrelated story.