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There are multiple missing things for this: 1. Layoffs happened regardless of visa status, so visa workers were part of the layoffs. 2. The visa applications

There are multiple missing things for this: 1. Layoffs happened regardless of visa status, so visa workers were part of the layoffs. 2. The visa applications for H1B could be for workers already working in the company under a different visa like TN or F1 3. The positions affected by layoffs and positions filing for H1B could be different. For example, a front end position may be affected by layoffs, but the visa application could be for an ML eng. 4. Visa could also be for more tenured staff. Plenty of companies are now only hiring staff+ roles after the layoffs 5. Because of the lottery system and how it works, you could have filed for a visa before a certain date but then before the visa was picked, the worker was laid off. i.e. you filed for a visa in Feb for the April lottery but laid off the person in March, giving the illusion that you filed for a visa after laying people off.

whaleofatw2022 3y ago
>Many of the Google visas are for new employees, with some starting as soon as August 17th. Refutes at least two points you made if not three..
- kazamaloo 3y ago
  Not sure how the article knows "new" employees, but something doesn't click for me. H1B visas kick in on October 1st of each year. August 17th can only be for H1B transfers. Might still be a new employee, but definitely not someone coming from overseas.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Correct, in which case, it seems like a manufactured outrage. These folks are already in the US and authorized to work here for up to 6 years - basically indefinitely if applying for a green card.
  - belltaco 3y ago
    Also from where is the article getting that they're low paid? Its paywalled. If you see their filings the salaries are on par.
    - User23 3y ago
      You can’t really refute the claim that H-1B drives down the market price of labor by citing their price in the market. You have to show those wages would be the same even without the immigrant workers. From a basic supply and demand perspective that sounds unlikely, but markets are complex dynamic creatures so perhaps it’s the case. Nevertheless it needs to be shown.
      - UncleMeat 3y ago
        Similarly, it is very challenging to demonstrate this claim. It does not seem like the sort of thing we should take as a given.
        User23 3y ago
        Agreed, markets are complex. And frankly I don't find market based arguments for or against immigration particularly compelling for that reason. So far as I can tell we really have no reason to believe either side's claims along that dimension.
- Daishiman 3y ago
  The application process takes in general no less than a year.
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Nah that's not true. New applications are due in late April usually, and valid assuming you win the lottery, you can start at the beginning of the new USICS fiscal year in October. You can prep the paperwork in a week or two if you want. 6-7 months should suffice, and thats assuming you are selected. With premium processing you should know within what 2 weeks of submission? Not sure how premium processing works with the lottery.
gourdo 3y ago
[dead]
kasey_junk 3y ago
I don’t necessarily believe this position but not a single one of your points argues against the theory that H1b visas are bad for green card/citizen holders during times of layoffs. It’s a perfectly logical (if not humane given current immigration law) position to hold that companies should be required to lay off visa holders first and for there to be a “cooling off” period between layoffs and hiring of visa holders. My personal opinion is that liberalization of the visa process does more to protect local workers than our current system, but it’s perfectly reasonable to conclude big tech is currently using the visa system to blunt the tech labor market.
- joshuamorton 3y ago
  > It’s a perfectly logical (if not humane given current immigration law) position to hold that companies should be required to lay off visa holders first and for there to be a “cooling off” Only from a particular nationalist sentiment that isn't aligned with capitalism and free-markets. It is fairly reasonable to believe that tech layoffs were used to blunt worker power. It's much harder to make that argument around h1bs, given the relatively small number of h1b employees, relative ease of employing foreign nationals, and (within the set of companies we're focused on) relative equality of visa holders (in terms of salary and growth opportunities).
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > It’s a perfectly logical (if not humane given current immigration law) position to hold that companies should be required to lay off visa holders first and for there to be a “cooling off” period between layoffs and hiring of visa holders. Given these folks could be 10+ year long-term Indian residents of the US with approved I-140s waiting for their priority dates to come up, I'd say this would be incredibly inhumane. Generally sending people back where they came from because the company they work at made poor decisions feels like a bad idea, actually. Especially for a country as dependent on immigration as the US is to even come close to maintaining its population.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    Inhumane would be beating the employees. 10 years at Google will open more doors than the applicant could ever go through
tmaly 3y ago
You may have some very good logical arguments, but it looks bad to the average person observing it. It is the perception that matters.
testbjjl 3y ago
That’s a lot of nuance when the actual events are much more plausible.
rcme 3y ago
Points 2-5 all contain the words could be. Sure, the reason for submitting applications for H1-B could be any of the reasons you listed, or the applications could be for the obvious economic incentives.
usernew 3y ago
Maybe it's been too long and things have changed, but that's not how H1B visas work. I have a smallish S-corp and brought in some a long time ago. We filed, got the paperwork submitted, it got approved, they eventually came to work for me stateside. This took 14 months from filing to arrival. No one filing for a visa in February is having someone come over in March. No company is firing someone and filling that spot with an H1B the next day, unless that H1B is a contractor, and another company he already works for holds his visa. So the major missing thing here is (unless the process radically changed), is the article is blatantly lying.

whaleofatw2022 3y ago

>Many of the Google visas are for new employees, with some starting as soon as August 17th. Refutes at least two points you made if not three..

kazamaloo 3y ago
Not sure how the article knows "new" employees, but something doesn't click for me. H1B visas kick in on October 1st of each year. August 17th can only be for H1B transfers. Might still be a new employee, but definitely not someone coming from overseas.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Correct, in which case, it seems like a manufactured outrage. These folks are already in the US and authorized to work here for up to 6 years - basically indefinitely if applying for a green card.
- belltaco 3y ago
  Also from where is the article getting that they're low paid? Its paywalled. If you see their filings the salaries are on par.
  - User23 3y ago
    You can’t really refute the claim that H-1B drives down the market price of labor by citing their price in the market. You have to show those wages would be the same even without the immigrant workers. From a basic supply and demand perspective that sounds unlikely, but markets are complex dynamic creatures so perhaps it’s the case. Nevertheless it needs to be shown.
    - UncleMeat 3y ago
      Similarly, it is very challenging to demonstrate this claim. It does not seem like the sort of thing we should take as a given.
      - User23 3y ago
        Agreed, markets are complex. And frankly I don't find market based arguments for or against immigration particularly compelling for that reason. So far as I can tell we really have no reason to believe either side's claims along that dimension.
Daishiman 3y ago
The application process takes in general no less than a year.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Nah that's not true. New applications are due in late April usually, and valid assuming you win the lottery, you can start at the beginning of the new USICS fiscal year in October. You can prep the paperwork in a week or two if you want. 6-7 months should suffice, and thats assuming you are selected. With premium processing you should know within what 2 weeks of submission? Not sure how premium processing works with the lottery.

gourdo 3y ago

[dead]

kasey_junk 3y ago

I don’t necessarily believe this position but not a single one of your points argues against the theory that H1b visas are bad for green card/citizen holders during times of layoffs. It’s a perfectly logical (if not humane given current immigration law) position to hold that companies should be required to lay off visa holders first and for there to be a “cooling off” period between layoffs and hiring of visa holders. My personal opinion is that liberalization of the visa process does more to protect local workers than our current system, but it’s perfectly reasonable to conclude big tech is currently using the visa system to blunt the tech labor market.

joshuamorton 3y ago
> It’s a perfectly logical (if not humane given current immigration law) position to hold that companies should be required to lay off visa holders first and for there to be a “cooling off” Only from a particular nationalist sentiment that isn't aligned with capitalism and free-markets. It is fairly reasonable to believe that tech layoffs were used to blunt worker power. It's much harder to make that argument around h1bs, given the relatively small number of h1b employees, relative ease of employing foreign nationals, and (within the set of companies we're focused on) relative equality of visa holders (in terms of salary and growth opportunities).
arcticbull 3y ago
> It’s a perfectly logical (if not humane given current immigration law) position to hold that companies should be required to lay off visa holders first and for there to be a “cooling off” period between layoffs and hiring of visa holders. Given these folks could be 10+ year long-term Indian residents of the US with approved I-140s waiting for their priority dates to come up, I'd say this would be incredibly inhumane. Generally sending people back where they came from because the company they work at made poor decisions feels like a bad idea, actually. Especially for a country as dependent on immigration as the US is to even come close to maintaining its population.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  Inhumane would be beating the employees. 10 years at Google will open more doors than the applicant could ever go through

tmaly 3y ago

You may have some very good logical arguments, but it looks bad to the average person observing it. It is the perception that matters.

testbjjl 3y ago

That’s a lot of nuance when the actual events are much more plausible.

rcme 3y ago

Points 2-5 all contain the words could be. Sure, the reason for submitting applications for H1-B could be any of the reasons you listed, or the applications could be for the obvious economic incentives.

usernew 3y ago

Maybe it's been too long and things have changed, but that's not how H1B visas work. I have a smallish S-corp and brought in some a long time ago. We filed, got the paperwork submitted, it got approved, they eventually came to work for me stateside. This took 14 months from filing to arrival. No one filing for a visa in February is having someone come over in March. No company is firing someone and filling that spot with an H1B the next day, unless that H1B is a contractor, and another company he already works for holds his visa. So the major missing thing here is (unless the process radically changed), is the article is blatantly lying.