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Bill Gates didn't say much about it, except he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived. Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that

Bill Gates didn't say much about it, except he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived. Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. Or to try to downplay what happened. Those are huge differences.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mindslight 3y ago
The difference - one is naively engaging with the topic to try and defend his friend, while the other is saying the predictable politically correct thing that gets attention off him the quickest.
pessimizer 3y ago
Bill Gates is connected enough to Epstein to be suspected of participating in it. Of course he isn't talking about it.
- kenjackson 3y ago
  I haven't seen a single credible claim that Gates participated in anything inappropriate. The biggest red flag IMO is that his wife divorced him over it.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    Given how open of a secret this apparently was in Hollywood circles, it's a little hard to believe someone as well connected as Bill Gates wouldn't have any shred of an idea...
  - twelve40 3y ago
    why would he go and hang out at an infamous convicted felon's house when it was a widely publicized story by that time? like, how did he even end up there? > Gates first met face to face on the evening of Jan. 31, 2011, at Mr. Epstein's townhouse on the Upper East Side (nyt)
- upon_drumhead 3y ago
  At this point it seems like everyone is suspected of participating in it. It doesn’t seem like a high bar to cross anymore.
api 3y ago
I doubt anyone who spent a lot of time with Epstein didn’t know. I’m sure many didn’t participate, but everything I’ve read suggests Epstein was practically radiating his obsession with young girls.
- postsantum 3y ago
  There wasn't much room for doubt since the infamous tweet of Ellen Pao in which she mentioned that everyone around knew about their shenanigans
tzs 3y ago
> Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. Or to try to downplay what happened. What he said was that the girl who was ordered to offer sex to Minsky would have been ordered to present it as if it was a willing offer. This should not have been controversial. One of the first things covered in Evil Villain School is that when you are using your slaves (sex or otherwise) to try to curry favor with someone who doesn't know you are an evil villain you provide a cover story so that person won't know they are dealing with slaves.
- jonstewart 3y ago
  I think it's reasonably controversial for RMS (or anyone) to make up such hypothetical excuses for Minsky. It's far simpler and easier to think, "wait, Minsky did what? that's awful, there's no excuse for that."
  - tzs 3y ago
    Epstein was very evil, but he was not an idiot. The null hypothesis should be that he ran his sex trafficking operation the way pretty much everyone else who has successfully gotten away with running a sex trafficking operation as long as he did has run theirs. That includes instructing the people you have enslaved to not act like they are enslaved when they are around people who don't know you are a sex trafficker. You provide them with plausible cover stories that explain why they are around and why they are offering services to your guests. Also, note that Minsky was not accused of having sex with the girl. His name came up in a deposition where she was asked to list some of the famous people she was told to offer sex to. The deposition did not cover which of those people accepted the offer. Greg Benford was there when she approached Minsky and says that Minsky declined.
    - _cenw 3y ago
      Epstein was convicted for child trafficking long before his final arrest. People knew. Even if you believe he was a changed man, eventually you should figure out what's happening if you are offered sex by a very young person in relation to Epstein.
Manuel_D 3y ago
> Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. No, Stallman said that the people involved didn't necessarily know that the women and girls were trafficked - that Minsky was unaware that these people were victims as Epstein probably ordered them to present themselves as willing participants. This is a vastly different thing than claiming "the victims weren't victims". This comment just reinforces my belief that people's perception of Stallman are based in misinformation. There are good reasons to distance oneself from Stallman - among others his assertion that being paid to write closed-source software is unethical, which I think is too radial to be productive - but I worry people are distancing themselves on account of mistruths.
scythe 3y ago
>Bill Gates didn't say much about it, except he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived The quote everyone seems to remember from Stallman was basically the same thing: he said that Minsky was deceived. Stallman was also criticized for, inter alia, keeping lewd pictures on the wall of his office at the Free Software Foundation, and (IIRC) hugging people without asking in a way that made them uncomfortable. But I haven't heard anything about that in this thread until I said it myself. Stallman's comments were later exaggerated by several bloggers, to make them sound outrageous. Somehow the untrue misdeeds have outweighed the real ones, which makes it hard to believe there has been an honest evaluation of the situation.
sieongioetnio 3y ago
>Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. This is a lie. I don't believe you are lying, just repeating something you have read, but it's a lie all the same. You can read his comments yourself. He was entirely consistent that the victims were victims and that Epstein was a sex trafficker. His remarks were probably inappropriate but nothing like what people accused him of. Stallman's sin is that he doesn't know how to comport himself publicwise. He is insensitive. He will talk about any topic at any time or place, no matter how taboo and no matter how strange his opinion. This is bad behavior, but not evil behavior. Gates had a personal relationship with Epstein that started after Epstein was first convicted of sexual abuse of children [2] and after allegations of his sex trafficking were publicized. [3] He flew on Epstein's plane, repeatedly visited his home, and had dinner with him on many occasions. Gates and Epstein were usually entertained by young and attractive women at these meetings. [2] His wife was deeply uncomfortable with their friendship and told Gates this at the time. Gates evidently hid the extent of their friendship from his wife, as she ultimately divorced him when the details emerged in the Times. [1] But Gates' personal behavior is atrocious even if we leave Epstein aside. Gates has, for decades, made unwanted sexual advances at female subordinates and had sexual relationships with multiple employees during his marriage. This behavior was well known to employees at both Microsoft and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/business/bill-melinda-gates-divorce-epstein.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/business/bill-melinda-gat... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-... https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epstein-pedophile-billionaire-and-his-sex-den https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epstein-pedophile-bill... (Note the publication date)
- kenjackson 3y ago
  I’ve read the mailing list comments. The problem is that he is trying to excuse something potentially horrible without sufficient data. A far better statement IMO would be to say that I hope Minsky didn’t know of the coercion or age. Because he doesn’t know what Minsky did or didn’t know. If you’re around criminals enough, most of them try to simultaneously deny involvement while at the same time trying to excuse the crime. I’m not saying Stallman has this criminal mentality. I don’t know. But the types of statements are similar to those we all run into. And I think this also causes people to raise red flags.
moralestapia 3y ago
>he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived ??? Then his wife proceeds to get out of there asap, idk man, actions speak louder ...
- GoblinSlayer 3y ago
  It happens over false allegations just fine.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mindslight 3y ago

The difference - one is naively engaging with the topic to try and defend his friend, while the other is saying the predictable politically correct thing that gets attention off him the quickest.

pessimizer 3y ago

Bill Gates is connected enough to Epstein to be suspected of participating in it. Of course he isn't talking about it.

kenjackson 3y ago
I haven't seen a single credible claim that Gates participated in anything inappropriate. The biggest red flag IMO is that his wife divorced him over it.
- Alupis 3y ago
  Given how open of a secret this apparently was in Hollywood circles, it's a little hard to believe someone as well connected as Bill Gates wouldn't have any shred of an idea...
- twelve40 3y ago
  why would he go and hang out at an infamous convicted felon's house when it was a widely publicized story by that time? like, how did he even end up there? > Gates first met face to face on the evening of Jan. 31, 2011, at Mr. Epstein's townhouse on the Upper East Side (nyt)
upon_drumhead 3y ago
At this point it seems like everyone is suspected of participating in it. It doesn’t seem like a high bar to cross anymore.

api 3y ago

I doubt anyone who spent a lot of time with Epstein didn’t know. I’m sure many didn’t participate, but everything I’ve read suggests Epstein was practically radiating his obsession with young girls.

postsantum 3y ago
There wasn't much room for doubt since the infamous tweet of Ellen Pao in which she mentioned that everyone around knew about their shenanigans

tzs 3y ago

> Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. Or to try to downplay what happened. What he said was that the girl who was ordered to offer sex to Minsky would have been ordered to present it as if it was a willing offer. This should not have been controversial. One of the first things covered in Evil Villain School is that when you are using your slaves (sex or otherwise) to try to curry favor with someone who doesn't know you are an evil villain you provide a cover story so that person won't know they are dealing with slaves.

jonstewart 3y ago
I think it's reasonably controversial for RMS (or anyone) to make up such hypothetical excuses for Minsky. It's far simpler and easier to think, "wait, Minsky did what? that's awful, there's no excuse for that."
- tzs 3y ago
  Epstein was very evil, but he was not an idiot. The null hypothesis should be that he ran his sex trafficking operation the way pretty much everyone else who has successfully gotten away with running a sex trafficking operation as long as he did has run theirs. That includes instructing the people you have enslaved to not act like they are enslaved when they are around people who don't know you are a sex trafficker. You provide them with plausible cover stories that explain why they are around and why they are offering services to your guests. Also, note that Minsky was not accused of having sex with the girl. His name came up in a deposition where she was asked to list some of the famous people she was told to offer sex to. The deposition did not cover which of those people accepted the offer. Greg Benford was there when she approached Minsky and says that Minsky declined.
  - _cenw 3y ago
    Epstein was convicted for child trafficking long before his final arrest. People knew. Even if you believe he was a changed man, eventually you should figure out what's happening if you are offered sex by a very young person in relation to Epstein.

Manuel_D 3y ago

> Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. No, Stallman said that the people involved didn't necessarily know that the women and girls were trafficked - that Minsky was unaware that these people were victims as Epstein probably ordered them to present themselves as willing participants. This is a vastly different thing than claiming "the victims weren't victims". This comment just reinforces my belief that people's perception of Stallman are based in misinformation. There are good reasons to distance oneself from Stallman - among others his assertion that being paid to write closed-source software is unethical, which I think is too radial to be productive - but I worry people are distancing themselves on account of mistruths.

scythe 3y ago

>Bill Gates didn't say much about it, except he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived The quote everyone seems to remember from Stallman was basically the same thing: he said that Minsky was deceived. Stallman was also criticized for, inter alia, keeping lewd pictures on the wall of his office at the Free Software Foundation, and (IIRC) hugging people without asking in a way that made them uncomfortable. But I haven't heard anything about that in this thread until I said it myself. Stallman's comments were later exaggerated by several bloggers, to make them sound outrageous. Somehow the untrue misdeeds have outweighed the real ones, which makes it hard to believe there has been an honest evaluation of the situation.

sieongioetnio 3y ago

>Stallman said a bunch of to try to either claim that the victims weren't victims. This is a lie. I don't believe you are lying, just repeating something you have read, but it's a lie all the same. You can read his comments yourself. He was entirely consistent that the victims were victims and that Epstein was a sex trafficker. His remarks were probably inappropriate but nothing like what people accused him of. Stallman's sin is that he doesn't know how to comport himself publicwise. He is insensitive. He will talk about any topic at any time or place, no matter how taboo and no matter how strange his opinion. This is bad behavior, but not evil behavior. Gates had a personal relationship with Epstein that started after Epstein was first convicted of sexual abuse of children [2] and after allegations of his sex trafficking were publicized. [3] He flew on Epstein's plane, repeatedly visited his home, and had dinner with him on many occasions. Gates and Epstein were usually entertained by young and attractive women at these meetings. [2] His wife was deeply uncomfortable with their friendship and told Gates this at the time. Gates evidently hid the extent of their friendship from his wife, as she ultimately divorced him when the details emerged in the Times. [1] But Gates' personal behavior is atrocious even if we leave Epstein aside. Gates has, for decades, made unwanted sexual advances at female subordinates and had sexual relationships with multiple employees during his marriage. This behavior was well known to employees at both Microsoft and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/business/bill-melinda-gates-divorce-epstein.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/16/business/bill-melinda-gat... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-bill-gates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/business/jeffrey-epstein-... https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epstein-pedophile-billionaire-and-his-sex-den https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffrey-epstein-pedophile-bill... (Note the publication date)

kenjackson 3y ago
I’ve read the mailing list comments. The problem is that he is trying to excuse something potentially horrible without sufficient data. A far better statement IMO would be to say that I hope Minsky didn’t know of the coercion or age. Because he doesn’t know what Minsky did or didn’t know. If you’re around criminals enough, most of them try to simultaneously deny involvement while at the same time trying to excuse the crime. I’m not saying Stallman has this criminal mentality. I don’t know. But the types of statements are similar to those we all run into. And I think this also causes people to raise red flags.

moralestapia 3y ago

>he didn't know about any of the "bad stuff" and was deceived ??? Then his wife proceeds to get out of there asap, idk man, actions speak louder ...

GoblinSlayer 3y ago
It happens over false allegations just fine.