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As an ethnic chinese person (grew up in the states but parents immigrated and don't speak english) I've always tried to convey this to my non-asian friends. Wh

by gretch 3y ago

As an ethnic chinese person (grew up in the states but parents immigrated and don't speak english) I've always tried to convey this to my non-asian friends. When we go out to eat together, they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met. It's 2 sticks; put the food in your mouth. Did you do it? If so, then you're good. It's not deeper than that. Plenty of times in my family we would just stab stuff because that was the easiest thing to do and no one thinks twice. addendum: growing up, I organically evolved the 'scissorhand' grip. At like ~18 years old, I consciously switched to standard because I was trying to pick up something small and realized my grip lacked precision.

qumpis 3y ago
I thought that parents in China are very strict about instilling "the right" chopstick habits.
- zht 3y ago
  There is definitely a right way. But no one would be offended if you didn’t hold it the right way
- ipnon 3y ago
  You usually can tell who grew up mainly using chopsticks to eat because they don’t have a standard grip. It’s people who start using them when they’re older who have proper form.
- powersnail 3y ago
  That’s just a stereotype taken from a small fraction of the population. There is one alleged proper form, but many adults don’t even do it that way, let alone instilling it on their child. Most parents are cool as long as the child can use the chopstick, which is exactly how adults who don’t hold it the “proper” way come into being. Theoretically, the proper form has some practical advantage. Practically, the difference in utility is minuscule.
  - Baeocystin 3y ago
    >That’s just a stereotype taken from a small fraction of the population. It was absolutely a Big Deal part of table manners when I was a kid, FWIW. SE Asia, southern China, late 70's. FWIW.
  - qumpis 3y ago
    I based my comment on convos with a few Chinese friends, all anecdotes from their childhoods though.
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  Many parents in the UK are very strict about knives and forks, to be fair. Usually in my ham-fisted experience in frustratingly inverse proportion to the likelihood of serving peas and other small vegetables and grains as opposed to easily tackled lumps of beige and gloopy-sauced beans. And, in the UK and China and elsewhere, some parents are, evidently, decidedly not.
- AITree 3y ago
  Yes, it's true that in China, parents often teach their children proper chopstick etiquette and techniques from a young age. This is because chopsticks are a fundamental part of Chinese culture and are used in almost every meal. Parents believe that learning to use chopsticks correctly not only shows respect for the food, but also reflects good manners and discipline.
ghaff 3y ago
At some point early-on, I decided that the "correct" (don't really even remember which finger at this point--probably middle finger) top knuckle position someone taught me just didn't work for me for whatever reason. So I essentially use two fingertips. >Plenty of times in my family we would just stab stuff because that was the easiest thing to do and no one thinks twice. And, yeah, there are some things like dumplings that conventional chopstick usage just don't really work all that well for with many people. (Per article I was probably taught something like standard rule but use something closer to finger pistol.)
alanbernstein 3y ago
Well it does kinda make sense to think about it explicitly, to make up for lacking the formative experience of growing up using them. But I get your point, it's a funny contrast. I've been wondering recently, how and what age do Chinese households get their children started using chopsticks? You make it sound like there isn't much instruction, if any. In my house, where spoons and forks are available, I think we have to actively encourage our toddler if we want her to try chopsticks.
ackfoobar 3y ago
This reminds me of the bowling analogy. https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/ https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-th... It's a ball; rolling it down and hit the pins. It's not deeper than that. Just like bowling, some ways to hold them get you more precision and control. Efficiency aside, I don't think they're overthinking it worrying about table manner of other cultures. It's no different from learning which forks to use in a Western formal setting.
- gretch 3y ago
  I don't really think this is anything like that bowling analogy. -Bowling is an explicit competition. Eating is not. -Bowling has objective markers for performance (160/300). Eating doesn't -Bowling is completely human created (as is software creation). As a result, both are highly abstract. Eating is one of the most basic things we all do The skill ceiling for chopsticks is extremely low. Once the food gets into your mouth and you are able to nourish yourself, the game is solved. Bowling is capped at 300. Software creation is not capped presumably. > It's no different from learning which forks to use in a Western formal setting. Yes I completely agree. In my opinion it's a useless form of gatekeeping used to artificially put people in 1 class over another. This is the type of thing we do when we eat at King Charles' coronation and I reject it.
  - ackfoobar 3y ago
    Every analogy can be stretched to the point that things don't match up. My original point is only about the skill ceiling. > Bowling has objective markers for performance (160/300). Eating doesn't Neither does software engineering, the thing discussed in the linked article. > The skill ceiling for chopsticks is extremely low. Occasionally foods can be slippery or delicate. Then the grip force (which generates friction) and precision matter.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    Using chopsticks is completely human created, just like bowling. Eating is a basic thing, yes, but cavemen didn't use chopsticks or other utensils (as far as we know), they used their bare hands and had little concept of hygiene which humans later created to try to minimize diseases. The skill ceiling for chopsticks isn't that low. Try picking up individual grains of rice with them. Skilled users can do this easily; beginners, not so much. It's far more difficult than using your fingers to grab things and shove them into your mouth, which is something any toddler can do. As for "gatekeeping", I find that one difficult to believe, since it's absolutely the norm for everyone, regardless of class, in Asian nations (namely CJK plus a few others) to use chopsticks for eating. Whereas in western nations, only certain upper-class (or aspiring) people really give a shit about which forks to use. In most Asian restaurants (in Asia), you'll have a really hard time eating if you can't use chopsticks, because it's assumed that everyone can and they don't usually provide western utensils unless it's a western-food restaurant.
yamtaddle 3y ago
> they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met. They're really hard to use if you didn't grow up using them and also haven't put in quite a bit of practice. They may be hoping for tips to make it less difficult.
- robofanatic 3y ago
  > They're really hard to use if you didn't grow up using them and also haven't put in quite a bit of practice. This is true with most tools. If you have never used it in your life even a tool as simple as pencil can be challenging.
  - yamtaddle 3y ago
    A pencil's exactly what I was thinking about comparing it to, actually. Spoon, fork, knife... hell, shovel, screwdriver? All easier. Pencils and chopsticks are more precise and require more fine motor control.
    - OJFord 3y ago
      I think chopsticks are more than twice as hard as a pencil (even never having used either) simply because you're trying to use two rods together. (Unless we allow just stabbing stuff I suppose, but that only works with certain foods and generally they won't be the whole meal anyway.)
      - yamtaddle 3y ago
        The only methods I've ever managed to make work rely on holding one of the sticks still so only one's moving, but it takes a fair bit of concentration and focus to achieve that. It's way easier than having both in motion, but still really wobbly and tricky.
        OJFord 3y ago
oldtownroad 3y ago
As a white person who grew up in the west, I was berated often for holding my knife and fork the “wrong” way and so it’s instilled in me that there is a “right” way to use utensils — thankfully, I only embarrassed myself a few times asking about the right way to use chopsticks before learning.
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  > I was berated often for holding my knife and fork the “wrong” way and so it’s instilled in me that there is a “right” way to use utensils Norms on that vary country-to-country, as does which hand the fork and knife go in, plus things like cutting a single bite at a time vs. pre-cutting several, or things like using a different hand to hold the fork while cutting versus while picking up food to eat, or keeping them in the same hands the whole time. [EDIT] Oh, and tines-up vs tines-down!
- gretch 3y ago
  Sorry for your experience. In my opinion those people were using chopstick technique as a vehicle for their bullying. Take the chopsticks out of the equation and they are probably doing some other form of gatekeeping.
Baeocystin 3y ago
As a caucasian who grew up in SE Asia... Lemme tell you, the number of times I was politely but firmly 'corrected' in how to hold chopsticks as a kid (which varied literally from family to family, so there was no way to win this game) is an equal part funny and stressful memory. :D Local parents had Strong Opinions on this!
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  As a lefty who lived in China for 9 years, they took one look at me and gave up. Something about using the wrong hand to eat with chopsticks just freezing minds.
  - xarope 3y ago
    if everybody is using chopsticks with their right hand, and you use your left, there will be "contention" haha
    - sohkamyung 3y ago
      Left-hander here. Yes, that's why I'm practising using my right hand to use chopsticks too. It's still weaker and not as flexible as using my left hand to eat, but I'm working on it. :-)
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Yes, tightly packed circular tables were my bane.
- petesergeant 3y ago
  Ha! Was it Thailand? Thailand is weird because you eat food deemed Chinese with chopsticks, and food deemed Thai with a fork and spoon, and displaying some Chinese heritage is a prestige thing
  - WastingMyTime89 3y ago
    > displaying some Chinese heritage is a prestige thing Considering the amount of racism towards Chinese I have encountered in Thailand, I somewhat doubt that.
kadoban 3y ago
> When we go out to eat together, they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met. As someone who both learned to use chopsticks as an adult and also taught _several_ people how to use them: what they're likely asking for is the basic hand position to use. It feels real awkward at first, so it's not obvious. The less correct ways feel about as awkward at first, but never actually improve too much, so it's really not a bad thing to ask.
esturk 3y ago
So you admit the standard grip is "better" than the scissor grip.
- gretch 3y ago
  You put the most significant word in your question in quotes, which means that you are putting some kind of special non-standard meaning on it. I can't guess at what you mean. What do you mean is it "better"?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
dgeiser13 3y ago
As a white dude: > It's 2 sticks; put the food in your mouth. Did you do it? No. The food is not in my mouth. Now what?
- gretch 3y ago
  Then I would diagnose your technique and give you some advice. In all of my personal experiences though, I've never seen someone fail on this level. It was almost always anxiety about 'proper' form. Or, they just needed to use a spoon. People forget chinese cuisine comes with a spoon a lot of the time (same with korean) and sometimes the spoon is the better instrument.
  - xarope 3y ago
    or learn to use a bowl and the scoop technique with chopsticks, coz that works too!
    - wink 3y ago
      I actually thought about this a lot until I visited Singapore/Hong Kong. Just put the bowl to your mouth and drink the soup while shoveling the noodles - at first I thought I just saw some hurried people, but at least in food stalls and low key restaurants everyone was doing it. It's also much quicker and you don't really need a lot of chopstick ability...

by gretch 3y ago

qumpis 3y ago

I thought that parents in China are very strict about instilling "the right" chopstick habits.

zht 3y ago
There is definitely a right way. But no one would be offended if you didn’t hold it the right way
ipnon 3y ago
You usually can tell who grew up mainly using chopsticks to eat because they don’t have a standard grip. It’s people who start using them when they’re older who have proper form.
powersnail 3y ago
That’s just a stereotype taken from a small fraction of the population. There is one alleged proper form, but many adults don’t even do it that way, let alone instilling it on their child. Most parents are cool as long as the child can use the chopstick, which is exactly how adults who don’t hold it the “proper” way come into being. Theoretically, the proper form has some practical advantage. Practically, the difference in utility is minuscule.
- Baeocystin 3y ago
  >That’s just a stereotype taken from a small fraction of the population. It was absolutely a Big Deal part of table manners when I was a kid, FWIW. SE Asia, southern China, late 70's. FWIW.
- qumpis 3y ago
  I based my comment on convos with a few Chinese friends, all anecdotes from their childhoods though.
adhesive_wombat 3y ago
Many parents in the UK are very strict about knives and forks, to be fair. Usually in my ham-fisted experience in frustratingly inverse proportion to the likelihood of serving peas and other small vegetables and grains as opposed to easily tackled lumps of beige and gloopy-sauced beans. And, in the UK and China and elsewhere, some parents are, evidently, decidedly not.
AITree 3y ago
Yes, it's true that in China, parents often teach their children proper chopstick etiquette and techniques from a young age. This is because chopsticks are a fundamental part of Chinese culture and are used in almost every meal. Parents believe that learning to use chopsticks correctly not only shows respect for the food, but also reflects good manners and discipline.

ghaff 3y ago

At some point early-on, I decided that the "correct" (don't really even remember which finger at this point--probably middle finger) top knuckle position someone taught me just didn't work for me for whatever reason. So I essentially use two fingertips. >Plenty of times in my family we would just stab stuff because that was the easiest thing to do and no one thinks twice. And, yeah, there are some things like dumplings that conventional chopstick usage just don't really work all that well for with many people. (Per article I was probably taught something like standard rule but use something closer to finger pistol.)

alanbernstein 3y ago

Well it does kinda make sense to think about it explicitly, to make up for lacking the formative experience of growing up using them. But I get your point, it's a funny contrast. I've been wondering recently, how and what age do Chinese households get their children started using chopsticks? You make it sound like there isn't much instruction, if any. In my house, where spoons and forks are available, I think we have to actively encourage our toddler if we want her to try chopsticks.

ackfoobar 3y ago

This reminds me of the bowling analogy. https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/ https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-th... It's a ball; rolling it down and hit the pins. It's not deeper than that. Just like bowling, some ways to hold them get you more precision and control. Efficiency aside, I don't think they're overthinking it worrying about table manner of other cultures. It's no different from learning which forks to use in a Western formal setting.

gretch 3y ago
I don't really think this is anything like that bowling analogy. -Bowling is an explicit competition. Eating is not. -Bowling has objective markers for performance (160/300). Eating doesn't -Bowling is completely human created (as is software creation). As a result, both are highly abstract. Eating is one of the most basic things we all do The skill ceiling for chopsticks is extremely low. Once the food gets into your mouth and you are able to nourish yourself, the game is solved. Bowling is capped at 300. Software creation is not capped presumably. > It's no different from learning which forks to use in a Western formal setting. Yes I completely agree. In my opinion it's a useless form of gatekeeping used to artificially put people in 1 class over another. This is the type of thing we do when we eat at King Charles' coronation and I reject it.
- ackfoobar 3y ago
  Every analogy can be stretched to the point that things don't match up. My original point is only about the skill ceiling. > Bowling has objective markers for performance (160/300). Eating doesn't Neither does software engineering, the thing discussed in the linked article. > The skill ceiling for chopsticks is extremely low. Occasionally foods can be slippery or delicate. Then the grip force (which generates friction) and precision matter.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  Using chopsticks is completely human created, just like bowling. Eating is a basic thing, yes, but cavemen didn't use chopsticks or other utensils (as far as we know), they used their bare hands and had little concept of hygiene which humans later created to try to minimize diseases. The skill ceiling for chopsticks isn't that low. Try picking up individual grains of rice with them. Skilled users can do this easily; beginners, not so much. It's far more difficult than using your fingers to grab things and shove them into your mouth, which is something any toddler can do. As for "gatekeeping", I find that one difficult to believe, since it's absolutely the norm for everyone, regardless of class, in Asian nations (namely CJK plus a few others) to use chopsticks for eating. Whereas in western nations, only certain upper-class (or aspiring) people really give a shit about which forks to use. In most Asian restaurants (in Asia), you'll have a really hard time eating if you can't use chopsticks, because it's assumed that everyone can and they don't usually provide western utensils unless it's a western-food restaurant.

yamtaddle 3y ago

> they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met. They're really hard to use if you didn't grow up using them and also haven't put in quite a bit of practice. They may be hoping for tips to make it less difficult.

robofanatic 3y ago
> They're really hard to use if you didn't grow up using them and also haven't put in quite a bit of practice. This is true with most tools. If you have never used it in your life even a tool as simple as pencil can be challenging.
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  A pencil's exactly what I was thinking about comparing it to, actually. Spoon, fork, knife... hell, shovel, screwdriver? All easier. Pencils and chopsticks are more precise and require more fine motor control.
  - OJFord 3y ago
    I think chopsticks are more than twice as hard as a pencil (even never having used either) simply because you're trying to use two rods together. (Unless we allow just stabbing stuff I suppose, but that only works with certain foods and generally they won't be the whole meal anyway.)
    - yamtaddle 3y ago
      The only methods I've ever managed to make work rely on holding one of the sticks still so only one's moving, but it takes a fair bit of concentration and focus to achieve that. It's way easier than having both in motion, but still really wobbly and tricky.
      - OJFord 3y ago

oldtownroad 3y ago

As a white person who grew up in the west, I was berated often for holding my knife and fork the “wrong” way and so it’s instilled in me that there is a “right” way to use utensils — thankfully, I only embarrassed myself a few times asking about the right way to use chopsticks before learning.

yamtaddle 3y ago
> I was berated often for holding my knife and fork the “wrong” way and so it’s instilled in me that there is a “right” way to use utensils Norms on that vary country-to-country, as does which hand the fork and knife go in, plus things like cutting a single bite at a time vs. pre-cutting several, or things like using a different hand to hold the fork while cutting versus while picking up food to eat, or keeping them in the same hands the whole time. [EDIT] Oh, and tines-up vs tines-down!
gretch 3y ago
Sorry for your experience. In my opinion those people were using chopstick technique as a vehicle for their bullying. Take the chopsticks out of the equation and they are probably doing some other form of gatekeeping.

Baeocystin 3y ago

As a caucasian who grew up in SE Asia... Lemme tell you, the number of times I was politely but firmly 'corrected' in how to hold chopsticks as a kid (which varied literally from family to family, so there was no way to win this game) is an equal part funny and stressful memory. :D Local parents had Strong Opinions on this!

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
As a lefty who lived in China for 9 years, they took one look at me and gave up. Something about using the wrong hand to eat with chopsticks just freezing minds.
- xarope 3y ago
  if everybody is using chopsticks with their right hand, and you use your left, there will be "contention" haha
  - sohkamyung 3y ago
    Left-hander here. Yes, that's why I'm practising using my right hand to use chopsticks too. It's still weaker and not as flexible as using my left hand to eat, but I'm working on it. :-)
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Yes, tightly packed circular tables were my bane.
petesergeant 3y ago
Ha! Was it Thailand? Thailand is weird because you eat food deemed Chinese with chopsticks, and food deemed Thai with a fork and spoon, and displaying some Chinese heritage is a prestige thing
- WastingMyTime89 3y ago
  > displaying some Chinese heritage is a prestige thing Considering the amount of racism towards Chinese I have encountered in Thailand, I somewhat doubt that.

kadoban 3y ago

> When we go out to eat together, they always ask me what's the 'right way' to hold chopsticks and I tell them that you guys think about this way more than any chinese person I've ever met. As someone who both learned to use chopsticks as an adult and also taught _several_ people how to use them: what they're likely asking for is the basic hand position to use. It feels real awkward at first, so it's not obvious. The less correct ways feel about as awkward at first, but never actually improve too much, so it's really not a bad thing to ask.

esturk 3y ago

So you admit the standard grip is "better" than the scissor grip.

gretch 3y ago
You put the most significant word in your question in quotes, which means that you are putting some kind of special non-standard meaning on it. I can't guess at what you mean. What do you mean is it "better"?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

dgeiser13 3y ago

As a white dude: > It's 2 sticks; put the food in your mouth. Did you do it? No. The food is not in my mouth. Now what?

gretch 3y ago
Then I would diagnose your technique and give you some advice. In all of my personal experiences though, I've never seen someone fail on this level. It was almost always anxiety about 'proper' form. Or, they just needed to use a spoon. People forget chinese cuisine comes with a spoon a lot of the time (same with korean) and sometimes the spoon is the better instrument.
- xarope 3y ago
  or learn to use a bowl and the scoop technique with chopsticks, coz that works too!
  - wink 3y ago
    I actually thought about this a lot until I visited Singapore/Hong Kong. Just put the bowl to your mouth and drink the soup while shoveling the noodles - at first I thought I just saw some hurried people, but at least in food stalls and low key restaurants everyone was doing it. It's also much quicker and you don't really need a lot of chopstick ability...