14 ms·

The D.E.N.N.I.S. system: Résumé tips for Senior Devs

190 points by jakey_bakey 3y ago

virtualritz 3y ago
2. Instead of LaTex embrace typst. https://github.com/typst https://github.com/typst https://typst.app/ https://typst.app/
proc0 3y ago
First, I love Always Sunny, so this is amazing. Second, could I get some perspectives on this: > While senior engineers are individual contributors; the best engineers’ best work is rarely code. Aside from technical non-code tasks, like diagrams, knowledge sharing, etc., presumably code is the reason an engineer is hired. I understand there are leadership responsibilities as you get more experience within an organization, however it seems common for organizations to push engineers towards more and more admin and business related tasks as they gain seniority. Is this common across all or most industries? I'm wondering what is the underlying incentive for companies to do this, is it the perception that younger people should do most of the contributions? I studied computer science because I love coding and not even a decade into my career it feels I'm supposed to do something completely different I didn't train for and personally I strongly dislike. I kept moving towards more and more technical companies, but it seems there is no escape from this in the software industry.
- jedberg 3y ago
  There are two types of senior engineers. One is the type talked about here. Someone who loves to design and code, but wants to have more impact, and finds that guiding other engineers is a more effective use of their time. See the examples in the article: Creating a new RFC process, introducing a post check-in hook for security audits, setting up a new platform team that builds libraries for everyone else. All of these things multiply the work of everyone else. They make what everyone else is doing faster/more effective/easier. Then there is the other kind of senior engineer -- the one that can output well structured, efficient, self documenting, code quickly. The one that you give the thorniest problems and they surprise you with a solution a few days later. Solving things that junior engineers simply couldn't. There is value to both kinds of senior engineers. The first kind is much more valuable though because most orgs aren't doing the deep tech that the second kind of engineer is good at solving.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Realistically you want a little bit of A and a little bit of B as well. The best is a senior engineer who can spit out the skeleton of B for junior engineers to work on; at the end of the day, sometimes parallel workstreams are more effective, and relying too heavily on a senior engineer can create a bad bus problem.
    - jedberg 3y ago
      > The best is a senior engineer who can spit out the skeleton of B for junior engineers to work on That's what person A does. Agreed that having a super senior engineers is bad for the bus factor (FYI people are calling it the lottery factor now, as in "what if they won the lottery and retired") but sometimes you don't have the luxury of having backup people.
      - mecha_ghidorah 3y ago
        That's silly though because even if they won the lottery they'd probably at least have an exit period while they sorted out their winnings, and you could potentially pay them to work a reduced schedule or something, especially if they like working there. If I won the lottery I wouldn't stop working immediately, I'd give notice and could do some hand over. Bus factor though - if a bus hits me I am immediately gone and people have to catch up without hand holding
        e1g 3y ago
        The “lottery” framing is the normalized and gentle way of asking “What’s our plan for when Stripe / OpenAI offers them a $1M/yr Staff role but only if they start immediately?” Think about the great engineers you’ve met, and how many of them would say “Sorry, but no - my current team relies on me, and I should help them transition”.
        jasonm23 3y ago
        Lottery framing is the gentle way of saying, what if they die. But sure, go with the "other" lottery. That's why we called it a Truck number.
- nkjnlknlk 3y ago
  It's not true everywhere but it's pretty much rewarded everywhere. Software engineering is pretty difficult to evaluate and managers will default to evaluating "soft skills" because they haven't looked at a PR in a decade. Also, the problems most organizations solve don't require much ability. That said, I also do not think the author means admin/business related tasks, but non-"coding" things like software design, technical vision, etc.? You might want to look at earlier stage start ups that don't need the management/pseudo-management positions (if it fits your life). Warning that you'll have to jump ship as the startup becomes successful and you get pushed into non-technical roles. :)
- jghn 3y ago
  Job levels are tied to the amount of business value one provides. At some point in one's journey, for most developers, they will hit diminishing returns in terms of what they can provide from just their hands on keyboard contributions.Thus at some point people will tend to either peter out level-wise or need to find ways to augment what they bring to the table in terms of coding. As an example, senior devs can be spending time mentoring, teaching, and guiding the junior devs in their team/org. Bringing up those around them will often, again not always, provide more business value than what they could have done on their own in that time.
  - scarface74 3y ago
    > Job levels are tied to the amount of business value one provides In many companies they aren’t tied to anything besides a meaningless title someone negotiates
  - re-thc 3y ago
    > Job levels are tied to the amount of business value one provides. How do we measure business value? Do all those new products that Google launch and kill off add value? But they create promotions... It's more like the illusion of business value.
  - krageon 3y ago
    > Job levels are tied to the amount of business value one provides. The other replies have told you already this broadly isn't true, so I will ask this: Do you have an example of a company where what I quoted is the truth? Normally promotions are almost entirely political, I'd love to see some examples (or even one) where this isn't the case.
- twic 3y ago
  Note that the examples of non-code output are ultimately still code - just not code written by the senior engineer. Part of what an effective senior person does is to take their own knowledge and wisdom, and externalise it in ways that let their colleagues take advantage of it without having to learn it from scratch. One of the most obvious ways of doing this is writing reusable code. Maybe you know the ins and outs of reliably spawning a child process in OS/2; you write a spawn_child_process_os2 function which does it, so others can take advantage of it. But there are less obvious, and sometimes more powerful ways to do this. The example of an RFC process externalises the engineer's understanding of how to rigorously think through and effectively communicate large changes. The example of security check-ins externalises the engineer's understanding of how to write secure code. The example of a platform team externalises the engineer's understanding of all sorts of code and build details particular to the organisation.
- ebiester 3y ago
  The further up the ladder you go, the less this is true. I tell people about a senior plateau - after this point, the growth gets smaller. Everything is just another framework, just another language, just another pattern. At this point, unless you are a spectacularly proficient programmer, there's a limit to how much further you are going to improve. Further, as organizations grow larger, there are more implications to every extra feature. That is, all of the easy stuff is done and the hard stuff means a change in multiple parts of the system, introducing fragility and cross-team coordination. In some cases, the effort in coordination outweighs the effort in code. And that's what I need a senior developer to do - can they understand multiple systems, work with multiple teams, or do they need engineering managers to figure it all out and give it to them bite-sized? And that is the impact that engineering leaders look for - someone who can code faster than everyone else just means there's a giant bottleneck everywhere around them.
  - proc0 3y ago
    Good points. It makes sense overall. I'm wondering if the perception is that high level engineering doesn't have as much business value as lower level engineering that allows teams to work in parallel. > Everything is just another framework, just another language, just another pattern. At this point, unless you are a spectacularly proficient programmer, there's a limit to how much further you are going to improve. I believe this is mostly a business decision, although one that could be justified. In theory, systems can be built such that changes and updates are simple configuration changes, including new features. Another example is using advanced techniques to guarantee no bugs. So while any given feature could be coded by multiple teams of mid-level skill, it could also be coded by a small team of high level engineers. As the system matures the cracks become visible and unless there are sophisticated techniques, codebases tend to deteriorate and that introduces otherwise unnecessary business costs to fix issues or even build a new system. The main reason I can think of why this is an accepted "sacrifice", is that a team of high level engineers cannot be as transparent as multiple teams with lower level engineers and managers. High level engineering is often opaque to everyone except others that have the knowledge. > And that is the impact that engineering leaders look for - someone who can code faster than everyone else just means there's a giant bottleneck everywhere around them. So yes, this makes sense but I think it's only a bottleneck if others are not as technically proficient. Speed comes as a result of more technical knowledge, and it seems to me at some point software companies are cutting that off in favor of using that experience to get everyone else up to speed, instead of continuing to leverage the direct skillset and building teams of highly proficient engineers, which in my opinion would deliver exponential business value (by coding sophisticated systems that can do virtually anything).
- javier_e06 3y ago
  I hear you. The so-called (full stack) jobs they have you doing everything under the sun not necessarily because you are proficient at any given assignment but because you can identify risks and bad practices quickly out of experience. The worst the job the more experience developers they need. I only once had a job where we were doing things right. The customer received our solution and it was so good, the customer said: "This is great, your solution is well put-together and well documented, your API's work out-the-box as expected, and they are fully tested. We can take it from here, thanks". Layoffs started a month later.
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  I am very glad to hear you liked it :) That's a really good point - I suppose you could rephrase to say "the work that's easiest to discuss achievements in the first round interview is rarely code" Basically, it's hard to explain, even to a technical person, how hard a code problem was, even if your solution was brilliant. But being able to do stuff that isn't code is a really easy way to showing you can 'getting shit done' I actually cover this in my follow-up post, around the difficulty in detecting strong technical proficiency in a short first-round interview.
- syndacks 3y ago
  Your job isn’t to code, it’s to solve business problems. To make more money for the company. That’s it.
  - proc0 3y ago
    If the title is software engineer, it is though. Solving business problems is not engineering. I get that at the end of the day it's about making money, but these expectations are not clear and the title ultimately reflects your expertise. I think part of the problem is the lack of standards in software engineer compared to other engineering, which have code of ethics and often require a license to practice. Those other engineering jobs are probably not doing management or solving business problems.
    - l33t233372 3y ago
      I personally know a senior mechanical engineer who’s basically doing what other posts are complaining software engineers end up doing — managing and solving business problems. I think this is more common than you’d think.
  - silveroriole 3y ago
    “Your job as a bricklayer isn’t to lay bricks. It’s to solve building problems.” If you’re actually looking for an architect or designer or salesperson or manager, hire them instead of berating developers for not doing all of those jobs at once. Also in most countries devs don’t get paid enough to solve business problems. American tech wages are the exception.
    - another2another 3y ago
      Which would actually lead to an awesome job description: "Full Stack bricklayer."
- explorer83 3y ago
  That's funny. I studied information sciences because I loved systems but didn't want to get stuck coding all day and (no offense?) was less introverted than many of my fellow tech majors (to where even my professors would be surprised when I'd take on a coding role in a project because they stereotyped me as not fitting the part.). We studied things like documenting systems, workflows, use cases, project management, networking and introductory programming courses in databases and several coding languages. In theory it sounded great. But I the job market it's actually extremely difficult to get those code-adjacent jobs when you don't have coding experience.
- asdfman123 3y ago
  Would you rather the person making the decisions about the code you write be a developer too, or not? I’d rather be managed by developers, and you only get that by promoting developers into management. You can stay an individual contributor if you want, and the pay is still very good. If it doesn’t work at your company, you can find others that will let you stay an IC.
1letterunixname 3y ago
"Impact is king." That's the cult at where I presently work. Engineer-led org.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  As opposed to working in the UK government, where Charles is king.
  - jakey_bakey 3y ago
    :D
- twic 3y ago
  A previous employer of mine established promotion guidelines based on the scope of someone's impact - individual, team, department, company, industry. But they never specified the direction of the impact.
  - chrsjxn 3y ago
    There are so many ways for "impact" to go wrong during promotions and performance reviews. I think my favorite were projects that just didn't have any metrics. Or that claimed to have metrics, but somehow they were never shared...
ctvo 3y ago
> If you’ve worked more than 4 jobs in the last 4 years, you’re in the danger zone. Many companies will discard a CV quickly if we don’t think you’ll stick around until next year. I mostly agree, but I think 2 jobs in 4 years? Probably fine. There's a line, and I don't think it's very clear cut.
- horsawlarway 3y ago
  I do a lot of interviewing > There's a line, and I don't think it's very clear cut. is spot on. I would also say 2 jobs in 4 years is ok, but if you have nothing but two year stints - I treat that as a negative.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I agree. Any given shortish stint can be for one of a million reasons. Two can just be luck of the draw especially in startup world. But at some point, things become patterns and, unless you're OK with the pattern, it's probably foolish to think that things will be different this time.
- canyonero 3y ago
  Personally, I wish we could stop judging individuals without understanding the context. There may be a million different reasons for someone that needs frequent job changes in a four year periods. Asking good questions to candidates will be far more informative and useful to the business than having a set of rules for dismissal or judgement. Furthermore, the company is rarely/never accountable for swiftly laying people off individuals that may otherwise be excellent workers. Frankly, if a company is discarding CVs based on perceived loyalty, then I perhaps those same companies to provide candidates with a contract reciprocates that loyalty via generous raises and job security.
  - Scubabear68 3y ago
    This filter may seem unfair, but I have found several short stints on a CV to be a strong signal that they may be short lived with us, too.
bobchadwick 3y ago
> E: Embrace LaTeX How does a hiring manager know that a resume was created using LaTex? I downloaded the author's PDF resume and it pretty much looked like any other PDF.
- wunderland 3y ago
  It also had a number of lists and most of his jobs were short stints!
- olddustytrail 3y ago
  If you've used LaTeX a lot it has a distinctive look. I actually write my CV in markdown and use pandoc to generate a PDF from that, but pandoc uses LaTeX to produce PDFs and I've had interviewers comment on it.
  - aloer 3y ago
    Does that mean most of the formatting is still done in LaTeX and the only change is the input format?
    - olddustytrail 3y ago
      Nope, I think I have about 2 lines of actual LaTeX, second is to ensure the pagination is correct. Otherwise I just let it use the defaults for headings etc
  - jakey_bakey 3y ago
    That's actually a great idea
- partdavid 3y ago
  They won't--it's nonsense. It's something you can point out if you get a screen or interview. But in my experience (and I like LaTeX and the notion of programming with neat markups for documents a lot) it just makes it hard to adapt if someone wants another format (HTML, Word or whatever) and is more of a "quirk" than a positive.
vonnieda 3y ago
"You based your resume tips on a sexual grooming chart?" "As a joke!" "I'm gonna go work somewhere else..." I know cultures are different in different places, but in corporate America this post is all red flags. Always Sunny is hilarious, but I sure wouldn't want to be sitting in HR explaining "the implication" to someone who has never seen the show.
- dbg31415 3y ago
  I had to Google it... Yeah, not something you want to have to explain in an interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THvCDn8mGwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THvCDn8mGwo
- nkingsy 3y ago
  My favorite episode, but I think this is maybe one step worse than taking cues from "Succession"
  - Minor49er 3y ago
    Dennis is a master of dark patterns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTKZ9Gyqiyo&t=29s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTKZ9Gyqiyo&t=29s
- bigmattystyles 3y ago
  I'm sure OP can just share his erotic memoir of his exploits to explain.
  - jeffwask 3y ago
    Watch out for Sinbad
  - jakey_bakey 3y ago
    My memoir is the least erotic literature since The Very Hungry Caterpillar
- Syzygies 3y ago
  Anyone who follows an acronym for advice isn't cut out to be an effective manager.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
KerrAvon 3y ago
I don’t get the LaTeX thing — won’t recruiters and managers just print your LinkedIn to PDF if they need to pass it around in hardcopy form?
- blowski 3y ago
  If I did get it in LaTeX I would probably question how much you think about your users, rather than looking clever around other devs.
  - olddustytrail 3y ago
    LaTeX isn't the output format. You'd get it as a generated PDF.
    - blowski 3y ago
      The submission seems to suggest sending it in LaTeX to “impress” the hiring manager.
      - jakey_bakey 3y ago
        Addendum: This only works if the hiring manager is a nerd like me
      - unmole 3y ago
        > The submission seems to suggest sending it in LaTeX to “impress” the hiring manager. No, it did not. The author linked his resume as an example: A PDF generated from LaTeX.
- partdavid 3y ago
  There's a really tiny niche case where someone might notice or, if you point it out, be impressed or amused and have some say in the hiring process, but these will be weird rare situations that you can't predict anyway. I think you should do your resume with your most comfortable tool, and that might be LaTeX (in which case you can expand on it) or it might be Google docs and you know what? That's a pretty common documentation skill to want to have, too.
partdavid 3y ago
I de-emphasize lists of languages and technologies but there's a reason to put them there, and that's for searching and indexing. When I'm looking at a resume I want to see concise and accurate descriptions of accomplishments at the beginning, but I don't think it's a detriment if somewhere there is a list of technologies. Just make sure that everything on your resume is justified and you're able to answer questions about it. Don't put SQL if you can't answer interview questions about it.
ghaff 3y ago
I thought N: Name Recognition was going to go in a different direction. Frankly, what makes a bigger difference than having a known company on your resume (though that probably helps with respect to big Tech companies with known difficult interview processes, albeit for mostly the wrong reasons) is N: Networking. Getting a job through people I've known has worked for me since the last century.
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  This is a great comment, I definitely neglected the value this brings.
- commandlinefan 3y ago
  > Getting a job through people I've known has worked for me Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I've worked at 10 different places since 1992, and I've gotten roughly half through referrals and the rest through recruiters/monster/linkedin/etc. By far the more pleasant experiences have been the "cold" ones that I didn't get through a personal referral.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I'm sure it varies. But the three different places I've worked since the mid-80s have been (post-grad school recruiting) through personal contacts. But then that's a lot different from 10 jobs in 10 years.
- dclowd9901 3y ago
  For some reason, networking seems to be a dirty word in tech. I went through the same rigorous tech screening as anyone else would for a recent job, despite knowing from previous work experience a colleague that I would be working with in the new position. I understand wanting to be able to cross your Ts and dot your Is, but why not save everyone a boatload of time and just go off a recommendation? I ended up getting the job of course but it wasn’t without jumping through hoop after useless hoop. It’s like they don’t even trust the people they hire.
  - 3y ago
jd24 3y ago
Disagree with the latex point. If you are using latex just to put your resume together, you are wasting your time. Just do it in google docs or word. Anyone reviewing your resume won't even care unless you brought it up for some reason.
- madduci 3y ago
  Why is it a waste of time? With LyX it goes really fast. I use personally Asciidoc and asciidoctor-pdf to generate my resume as PDF. It's easier and less prone to funny formatting shifts typical of Word documents.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- siggen 3y ago
  Speaking from experience, Applicant Tracking Systems (ATS) work only ideally with Word. Don’t use LaTeX unless you know for sure the individual receiving appreciates it.
  - dunk010 3y ago
    Came here to say this. It’s definitely a bad idea given that so much first stage screening is automated these days. If your CV parses badly you’re just as likely to be silently binned by an algorithm. I say this from personal experience, and now having begrudgingly rolled my CV back from LaTeX to Word.
    - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
      On my recent job search, I basically only got responses from smaller companies, and I'm now suspicious that this was the reason.
  - alkonaut 3y ago
    But regardless of whether you wrote your resume in word or LaTeX, 99% of the time you'd send it as a PDF, correct? So are you saying LaTeX pdfs will parse worse than Word PDF's in automatic systems?
zeitlupe 3y ago
Imho the problem with LaTeX CVs is that they all look bleak and the same because it is (on purpose) tedious to create anything except the standard format.
- Syzygies 3y ago
  I needed a sample LaTeX vita file in the early 1980's. I had logins on various math department servers, so I searched from root on each machine, and decided to base my vita on David Mumford's vita source file. That says something about privacy in the era. I felt that what I did was entirely in the spirit of the default file permissions. Various people were nevertheless horrified when they learned that this search was even possible.
- howinteresting 3y ago
  LaTeX's typesetting really stands out in a resume though. It looks gorgeous on screen or on paper. The spacing between letters and words is perfect.
carrja99 3y ago
Sorry but this is a pretty nonsense post.
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  Thanks for the feedback - could you give any feedback for next time? I'm fairly new to writing. (And yes I won't quit my day job!)
cjohnson318 3y ago
LaTeX for your resume?! If someone sumgly sends me a .TEX resume I have to (struggle to) compile instead of a .PDF, then I'm deleting the email and never responding. Yeah, I know LaTeX, but you've totally over-engineered the solution to the problem of writing a resume, and you've already increased my workload instead of decreasing it, even before getting on the payroll! Hard pass.
- cesaref 3y ago
  I took this as meaning that it should be obvious from the layout that it was a LaTeX document, but I agree, this is not something that i've ever considered when filtering CVs.
  - pantalaimon 3y ago
    You can totally see when a résumé was created in LaTeX and I always counted that as a bonus.
    - jldugger 3y ago
      On the other hand, that dude is going to write the FAQ in LaTeX and then complain nobody else contributes.
      - pantalaimon 3y ago
        Write it in Markdown and let Pandoc turn it into LaTeX or whatever you desire
    - jakey_bakey 3y ago
      Yeah, it's more a case of, "me and probably 10% of hiring managers are massively biased in favour of LaTeX if we see it, and the other 90% won't care either way"
      - somenewaccount1 3y ago
        Uhhh..probably you and .2% of hiring managers. I've never cared when hiring, and have never heard this advice anywhere but this post. No offense, but if it was as common as 10%, recruiters and bloggers would be suggesting it left and right.
paxys 3y ago
No one cares if you put your resume together in LaTeX. Hardly anyone working in the software industry even knows what that is. The other tips are fine, but all pretty generic. Moreover "work for a big brand name company" and "don't do short stints" aren't exactly resume writing advice.
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  Fair comment. I did try to add tactical things someone could do in the short term to make it less "by the way you're screwed if you didn't do this", but I'll make sure to frame it more specifically in my next posts
  - itronitron 3y ago
    markdown to html to pdf is another route for making a clean looking resume
- ghostpepper 3y ago
  I definitely notice if a resume is written in latex, and while I wouldn't hire someone solely based on that, it's definitely a slight positive in my mind. IMHO it shows they understand the value of visual presentation, using the right tool for the job, and aren't afraid to learn a new programming language.
  - asdfman123 3y ago
    Would you say you have LaTex sensitivity?
fishtoaster 3y ago
> Impact is King This seems to be common advice. Whenever I'm reviewing resumes, I can always tell when someone's been given it because their past job descriptions are littered with "...causing a 30% drop in whatever" or "...thus doubling our blah blah blah." Honestly, I've always found those to be pretty content-free. I have no idea if those numbers were actually measured or if you're just guessing. I have no way to know if that project was actually your idea or if you were just implementing someone else's initiative. I have no idea what the team was like and what your actual contribution to the project was. The numbers are meaningless without a ton more context. Sure, I can ask about all of that context in the interview, but I'd do that anyway. It doesn't add anything (for me as a hiring manager, at least) to have it on your resume.
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  Agree with this to some extent - I was careful not to parrot the common advice of "use numbers as much as possible" because I always smell some level of BS. But qualitative stuff gives you enough to go on to ask about in the first-round interview.
- sigstoat 3y ago
  > I have no way to know if that project was actually your idea or if you were just implementing someone else's initiative. I have no idea what the team was like and what your actual contribution to the project was. The numbers are meaningless without a ton more context. is there anything that isn’t meaningless, then? their idea of knowing X, Y and Z likely differs from yours, as well. what will you believe or trust from a resume? (personally i don’t trust any specific element and just look for an overall tone, and then ask about the specific interesting bits.)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dumbotron 3y ago
    > is there anything that isn’t meaningless, then? Invert a binary tree.
throwaway4736 3y ago
You should buy a boat. Then they’ll have to hire you, because of the implication.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago
Ironically, "Separate Entirely" (from the D.E.N.N.I.S. used in the Always Sunny episode) was changed to "Short Stints are Dangerous". From my point of view, "Separate Entirely" is better advice and it's justified by the given advice of "Short Stints are Dangerous". I "separate" my ego from the process because I know I'm being judged by someone's arbitrary system. "Short Stints are Dangerous" is the irony because it's actually part of someone's arbitrary judgement system. (I also understand that my interpretation is different from the episode of this comedy show. I mean to present it with this other interpretation.) Some of the advice is pretty good, so it's not worth throwing it all out. Just take each piece of advice in turn rather than all or nothing. The "Drive Initiative" advice is solid, especially in terms of discovering what you'd like to accomplish in your job.
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  I like this perspective, especially with how harsh the hiring market is today
bitwize 3y ago
No LaTeX. Use Word like a civilized person. Everything goes through an ATS now, and those like Word documents. Hiring managers, HR, and recruiters will thank you.
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  Fair comment.
- unmole 3y ago
  > Everything goes through an ATS now, and those like Word documents. No worthwhile ATS system is going to have trouble parsing a PDF generated from LaTeX. This is a myth that just gets trotted about.
tristor 3y ago
I don't think using LaTeX for the resume matters. I've been using Markdown to build my resume for ages, and I've seen resumes that are handcrafted HTML, and I've seen resumes that are just a text file. The format only matters as much as it display something about you (if you're a web developer/frontend person, you should have a high quality web resume) and how it affects readability. Otherwise, I don't care as a hiring manager / interviewer. If LaTeX helps you get it done and lets you generate multiple formats easily, go for it. I use pandoc + markdown to generate mine, and it supports LaTeX inputs as well. Don't expect the person reading the PDF attached in the hiring system 10 minutes before the interview call to care whether you used LaTeX or not, or even to comment on it.
ericmcer 3y ago
Several points are things that have nothing to do with writing a resume: 'Name Recognition' - You should have worked at FAANG or large companies. 'Short stints' - You should have worked for 1.5+ years at each job. 'Drive Initiatives/Impact is King' - You should be driving features and taking ownership. Those all take years to cultivate and are things you would obviously add to a Resume if you could. I guess the point is to not add in any fluffy BS. The authors point seems to be that people who have impressive credentials are good candidates?
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  This is a pretty fair criticism, thank you. I did do my best on the re-drafts to try and ensure I was suggesting workarounds for the name recognition piece; but you're right that a lot of the points do boil down to "be very hireable".
  - ericmcer 3y ago
    Yeah no problem, I think every 'how to resume' article has a similar issue. I have tried writing before and it is a huge pain so props for putting this together and getting it out there. Your style is fun and your writing is clear.
    - jakey_bakey 3y ago
      Thank you so much for saying that :)
activitypea 3y ago
> In the recent round of tech layoffs, sometimes it’s unavoidable to have one or two shorter tenures - hiring managers are aware of this, and so this generally doesn’t count against you. But giving the appearance of job hopping in ‘peacetime’ is another thing entirely. > If you’ve worked more than 4 jobs in the last 4 years, you’re in the danger zone. Many companies will discard a CV quickly if we don’t think you’ll stick around until next year. I am so tired of this conversation. At this point, all I can do is shut up and be grateful to be rejected by these people if I ever have a spotty resume.
irrational 3y ago
Regarding the Latex suggestion, how would someone know if it was created using Latex? I’ve looked at many hundreds of resumes and have no idea if any of them were created using Latex.
- helianer 3y ago
  This only really works if the hirer has used latex themselves. If you know you know.
- unmole 3y ago
  Using Computer Modern is a a good indication. Also, mandatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1301/ https://xkcd.com/1301/
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rectangleboy 3y ago
  I have the \LaTeX command in my skills line, which is really hard to typeset in anything other than LaTeX. Other engineers notice it unprompted.
scarface74 3y ago
A company that cares about your whether your resume using latex is probably a company I would not want to work for. They would probably spend all day in meetings arguing about tabs vs spaces and other geek minutiae instead of business outcomes.
ackbar03 3y ago
>Hire me… because of the implication Are these hiring managers in danger??
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  You certainly wouldn't be any danger!
  - ackbar03 3y ago
    So they are in danger!!
    - rekoil 3y ago
      No one's in any danger!
thomasfromcdnjs 3y ago
I've just been sending a url to all my employees for the last decade e.g. https://registry.jsonresume.org/thomasdavis https://registry.jsonresume.org/thomasdavis (p.s. i built it initially) If some recruiter or department asks for a PDF, I tell them to print the page or figure out a way lol
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  I'm a big fan of web page CVs too, perhaps I should amend to suggest this as a great alternative
- wincy 3y ago
  Hey, from one engineer to another, from a place of trying to be helpful, the resume looks very nice, but in the second sentence of your intro you write “use to” rather than “used to”.
  - thomasfromcdnjs 3y ago
    Thank you. It has probably been worded as such for about 8 years and no one has corrected it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ntr-- 3y ago
It's baffling to me how many "senior web developers" don't have their CV hosted on a website. Regardless of whether it's plain HTML on a CDN or a hectic fully 3d WebGL demo, a senior dev should have a domain with a https secured connection expressly for showing that they can in fact deploy and maintain a production instance. The recruiter needs a PDF? Have a version linked to at the top of the document, or let them know that they can just press CTRL+P and your beautiful hand crafted css media queries will lay out an equivalent copy ready to be printed. Like a lot of the other comments here, a LaTeX resume signals to me that the applicant probably spends more time code-golfing than implementing practical solutions.
- okeuro49 3y ago
  > spends more time code-golfing than implementing practical solutions. Code golfing is a too-frequent requirement for interviews. Many companies seem happy to miss out on the senior developers who avoid interview requirements to write code to do a fiddly string manipulation test within 2 minutes.
- anikan_vader 3y ago
  Why? LaTeX is one of the most useful programming languages to know these days.
  - throwaway675309 3y ago
    Which should be obvious from the fact that there's so many companies seeking out LaTeX experts. Oh wait...
- nullsense 3y ago
  >Regardless of whether it's plain HTML on a CDN or a hectic fully 3d WebGL demo, a senior dev should have a domain with a https secured connection expressly for showing that they can in fact deploy and maintain a production instance. I just don't think this really tells you anything meaningful. At least not with any certainty. I can setup a site on GitHub pages and push to main and that's all I need to do. Virtually no skill is needed to even do this.
- 3y ago
dclowd9901 3y ago
Ah this is about as douchey as I thought it would be. Congratulations, you wrote a yet another shitty tech article (YASTA). I think my favorite part is right at the very beginning where you relegate anyone who isn’t a self important douche to banality. I’m talking specifically about the section where you send someone who doesn’t conform to the question “what could your company not have done without you” packing. I would say “probably nothing,” because frankly if I wasn’t in that position, someone else probably would have been and they probably would have been able to do anything I could have done, because I don’t think I’m god’s gift to software development. It’s a job. I do it at a level commensurate with my pay. I’m not a singular snowflake. And judging by the demeanor this article was written in, OP is a dime a dozen.
- asdfman123 3y ago
  You’re forgetting the most important function of a job interview: making the interviewer feel smart and important.
bmitc 3y ago
This type of analysis always falls into the trap that assumes there's a global marker that separates good resumes from bad resumes. There's also some extra assumptions like what tool that was used to produce the resume matters. I know LaTeX quite well but use a Word document for my resume. For me personally, I write my resume in an honest way that reflects what I'd like to show and discuss. It is a teaser for discussions to follow and isn't necessarily meant to tell the whole story, so there's a lot of little short nuggets. I have a lot of detail in the resume, perhaps more than I should and certainly more than recommended by so-called resume experts, but it always seems to work in terms of finding me interesting roles. The thing is that by honestly crafting my resume rather than gamifying it, it filters out roles that aren't a good natural fit for me. And I can always tell when someone would be nice to work with and that there's some shared philosophy because they commented on the non-technical portions of my resume, like my hobbies and inerests, the personality, or my influences (almost all non-technical despite me being in software and engineering) sections. My resume and experience is weird, but I normally like to find weird roles. The greatest complement Inhave received was that my resume was "interesting", with the connotation of they weren't sure what to think of it but liked it. And I'm just a normal person who looks for interesting roles who probably can't (and doesn't want to be) hired at a FAANG. My Amazon interview was miserable. And it was clear my resume wasn't paid attention to. Would have made it easy to turn down the role if I was offered it, which I wasn't.
throwaway675309 3y ago
"Impact is king" No. Content is king, and unfortunately I don't see anything in particular in this article that I haven't heard 1000 times before. The only dubiously unique point that this list contains (which is ironic because one of your points is complaining against lists) is your unusual emphasis on embracing latex. Unless you're E.E. Cummings, writing should be more about the substance and less about the styling, and yeah this is a subtle dig against Latex as well.
- bootsmann 3y ago
  Meh, I would argue that latex gives you some power to automate mundane customization of the CV for slightly different jobs/companies without any hassle. For instance I have a script that orders my open source contributions and various side stints differently.
5350-uiop-1130 3y ago
using the "dennis" system to describe the average hiring managers is incredibly apt. the entire process now is just designed to see how desperate you are. it's impossible to go through it without losing some dignity.
dhab 3y ago
I have interviewed quite a few now, and for me it might be: (T)ech used before that meets job requirements, (I)nitiatives taken, (C)an my team work well with this person, (K)nowledge acquiring capability on something - proxied by things like successful transitioning from different career path to programming or PHP to Golang etc TICK (Maybe)
creativenolo 3y ago
> No more lists Good point from the point of view of the hiring manager. But there are people involved in the process often before the hiring manager sees a CV. Speaking to a recruiter, they like lists of keywords. Helps them sort through large amounts of CVs. And this behaviour will result on the hiring manager getting similar lists on each CV.
red-iron-pine 3y ago
Embrace LaTeX.... eh. Tried that with 2 column, and later standard looking resume formats. Always got mangled by the auto-parser. Less of an issue with the MS Word ones.
recursv_thnkng 3y ago
I don't understand the obsession with LaTeX. Nobody realistically would care if you coded your resume in LaTeX because it's such a small "project" (a la "hello world") and there's nearly no real-world applications for that. Word templates work just fine and can be exported to PDF when needed.

190 points by jakey_bakey 3y ago

2. Instead of LaTex embrace typst. https://github.com/typst https://github.com/typst https://typst.app/ https://typst.app/

proc0 3y ago

First, I love Always Sunny, so this is amazing. Second, could I get some perspectives on this: > While senior engineers are individual contributors; the best engineers’ best work is rarely code. Aside from technical non-code tasks, like diagrams, knowledge sharing, etc., presumably code is the reason an engineer is hired. I understand there are leadership responsibilities as you get more experience within an organization, however it seems common for organizations to push engineers towards more and more admin and business related tasks as they gain seniority. Is this common across all or most industries? I'm wondering what is the underlying incentive for companies to do this, is it the perception that younger people should do most of the contributions? I studied computer science because I love coding and not even a decade into my career it feels I'm supposed to do something completely different I didn't train for and personally I strongly dislike. I kept moving towards more and more technical companies, but it seems there is no escape from this in the software industry.

jedberg 3y ago
There are two types of senior engineers. One is the type talked about here. Someone who loves to design and code, but wants to have more impact, and finds that guiding other engineers is a more effective use of their time. See the examples in the article: Creating a new RFC process, introducing a post check-in hook for security audits, setting up a new platform team that builds libraries for everyone else. All of these things multiply the work of everyone else. They make what everyone else is doing faster/more effective/easier. Then there is the other kind of senior engineer -- the one that can output well structured, efficient, self documenting, code quickly. The one that you give the thorniest problems and they surprise you with a solution a few days later. Solving things that junior engineers simply couldn't. There is value to both kinds of senior engineers. The first kind is much more valuable though because most orgs aren't doing the deep tech that the second kind of engineer is good at solving.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Realistically you want a little bit of A and a little bit of B as well. The best is a senior engineer who can spit out the skeleton of B for junior engineers to work on; at the end of the day, sometimes parallel workstreams are more effective, and relying too heavily on a senior engineer can create a bad bus problem.
  - jedberg 3y ago
    > The best is a senior engineer who can spit out the skeleton of B for junior engineers to work on That's what person A does. Agreed that having a super senior engineers is bad for the bus factor (FYI people are calling it the lottery factor now, as in "what if they won the lottery and retired") but sometimes you don't have the luxury of having backup people.
    - mecha_ghidorah 3y ago
      That's silly though because even if they won the lottery they'd probably at least have an exit period while they sorted out their winnings, and you could potentially pay them to work a reduced schedule or something, especially if they like working there. If I won the lottery I wouldn't stop working immediately, I'd give notice and could do some hand over. Bus factor though - if a bus hits me I am immediately gone and people have to catch up without hand holding
      - e1g 3y ago
        The “lottery” framing is the normalized and gentle way of asking “What’s our plan for when Stripe / OpenAI offers them a $1M/yr Staff role but only if they start immediately?” Think about the great engineers you’ve met, and how many of them would say “Sorry, but no - my current team relies on me, and I should help them transition”.
        jasonm23 3y ago
        Lottery framing is the gentle way of saying, what if they die. But sure, go with the "other" lottery. That's why we called it a Truck number.
nkjnlknlk 3y ago
It's not true everywhere but it's pretty much rewarded everywhere. Software engineering is pretty difficult to evaluate and managers will default to evaluating "soft skills" because they haven't looked at a PR in a decade. Also, the problems most organizations solve don't require much ability. That said, I also do not think the author means admin/business related tasks, but non-"coding" things like software design, technical vision, etc.? You might want to look at earlier stage start ups that don't need the management/pseudo-management positions (if it fits your life). Warning that you'll have to jump ship as the startup becomes successful and you get pushed into non-technical roles. :)
jghn 3y ago
Job levels are tied to the amount of business value one provides. At some point in one's journey, for most developers, they will hit diminishing returns in terms of what they can provide from just their hands on keyboard contributions.Thus at some point people will tend to either peter out level-wise or need to find ways to augment what they bring to the table in terms of coding. As an example, senior devs can be spending time mentoring, teaching, and guiding the junior devs in their team/org. Bringing up those around them will often, again not always, provide more business value than what they could have done on their own in that time.
- scarface74 3y ago
  > Job levels are tied to the amount of business value one provides In many companies they aren’t tied to anything besides a meaningless title someone negotiates
- re-thc 3y ago
  > Job levels are tied to the amount of business value one provides. How do we measure business value? Do all those new products that Google launch and kill off add value? But they create promotions... It's more like the illusion of business value.
- krageon 3y ago
  > Job levels are tied to the amount of business value one provides. The other replies have told you already this broadly isn't true, so I will ask this: Do you have an example of a company where what I quoted is the truth? Normally promotions are almost entirely political, I'd love to see some examples (or even one) where this isn't the case.
twic 3y ago
Note that the examples of non-code output are ultimately still code - just not code written by the senior engineer. Part of what an effective senior person does is to take their own knowledge and wisdom, and externalise it in ways that let their colleagues take advantage of it without having to learn it from scratch. One of the most obvious ways of doing this is writing reusable code. Maybe you know the ins and outs of reliably spawning a child process in OS/2; you write a spawn_child_process_os2 function which does it, so others can take advantage of it. But there are less obvious, and sometimes more powerful ways to do this. The example of an RFC process externalises the engineer's understanding of how to rigorously think through and effectively communicate large changes. The example of security check-ins externalises the engineer's understanding of how to write secure code. The example of a platform team externalises the engineer's understanding of all sorts of code and build details particular to the organisation.
ebiester 3y ago
The further up the ladder you go, the less this is true. I tell people about a senior plateau - after this point, the growth gets smaller. Everything is just another framework, just another language, just another pattern. At this point, unless you are a spectacularly proficient programmer, there's a limit to how much further you are going to improve. Further, as organizations grow larger, there are more implications to every extra feature. That is, all of the easy stuff is done and the hard stuff means a change in multiple parts of the system, introducing fragility and cross-team coordination. In some cases, the effort in coordination outweighs the effort in code. And that's what I need a senior developer to do - can they understand multiple systems, work with multiple teams, or do they need engineering managers to figure it all out and give it to them bite-sized? And that is the impact that engineering leaders look for - someone who can code faster than everyone else just means there's a giant bottleneck everywhere around them.
- proc0 3y ago
  Good points. It makes sense overall. I'm wondering if the perception is that high level engineering doesn't have as much business value as lower level engineering that allows teams to work in parallel. > Everything is just another framework, just another language, just another pattern. At this point, unless you are a spectacularly proficient programmer, there's a limit to how much further you are going to improve. I believe this is mostly a business decision, although one that could be justified. In theory, systems can be built such that changes and updates are simple configuration changes, including new features. Another example is using advanced techniques to guarantee no bugs. So while any given feature could be coded by multiple teams of mid-level skill, it could also be coded by a small team of high level engineers. As the system matures the cracks become visible and unless there are sophisticated techniques, codebases tend to deteriorate and that introduces otherwise unnecessary business costs to fix issues or even build a new system. The main reason I can think of why this is an accepted "sacrifice", is that a team of high level engineers cannot be as transparent as multiple teams with lower level engineers and managers. High level engineering is often opaque to everyone except others that have the knowledge. > And that is the impact that engineering leaders look for - someone who can code faster than everyone else just means there's a giant bottleneck everywhere around them. So yes, this makes sense but I think it's only a bottleneck if others are not as technically proficient. Speed comes as a result of more technical knowledge, and it seems to me at some point software companies are cutting that off in favor of using that experience to get everyone else up to speed, instead of continuing to leverage the direct skillset and building teams of highly proficient engineers, which in my opinion would deliver exponential business value (by coding sophisticated systems that can do virtually anything).
javier_e06 3y ago
I hear you. The so-called (full stack) jobs they have you doing everything under the sun not necessarily because you are proficient at any given assignment but because you can identify risks and bad practices quickly out of experience. The worst the job the more experience developers they need. I only once had a job where we were doing things right. The customer received our solution and it was so good, the customer said: "This is great, your solution is well put-together and well documented, your API's work out-the-box as expected, and they are fully tested. We can take it from here, thanks". Layoffs started a month later.
jakey_bakey 3y ago
I am very glad to hear you liked it :) That's a really good point - I suppose you could rephrase to say "the work that's easiest to discuss achievements in the first round interview is rarely code" Basically, it's hard to explain, even to a technical person, how hard a code problem was, even if your solution was brilliant. But being able to do stuff that isn't code is a really easy way to showing you can 'getting shit done' I actually cover this in my follow-up post, around the difficulty in detecting strong technical proficiency in a short first-round interview.
syndacks 3y ago
Your job isn’t to code, it’s to solve business problems. To make more money for the company. That’s it.
- proc0 3y ago
  If the title is software engineer, it is though. Solving business problems is not engineering. I get that at the end of the day it's about making money, but these expectations are not clear and the title ultimately reflects your expertise. I think part of the problem is the lack of standards in software engineer compared to other engineering, which have code of ethics and often require a license to practice. Those other engineering jobs are probably not doing management or solving business problems.
  - l33t233372 3y ago
    I personally know a senior mechanical engineer who’s basically doing what other posts are complaining software engineers end up doing — managing and solving business problems. I think this is more common than you’d think.
- silveroriole 3y ago
  “Your job as a bricklayer isn’t to lay bricks. It’s to solve building problems.” If you’re actually looking for an architect or designer or salesperson or manager, hire them instead of berating developers for not doing all of those jobs at once. Also in most countries devs don’t get paid enough to solve business problems. American tech wages are the exception.
  - another2another 3y ago
    Which would actually lead to an awesome job description: "Full Stack bricklayer."
explorer83 3y ago
That's funny. I studied information sciences because I loved systems but didn't want to get stuck coding all day and (no offense?) was less introverted than many of my fellow tech majors (to where even my professors would be surprised when I'd take on a coding role in a project because they stereotyped me as not fitting the part.). We studied things like documenting systems, workflows, use cases, project management, networking and introductory programming courses in databases and several coding languages. In theory it sounded great. But I the job market it's actually extremely difficult to get those code-adjacent jobs when you don't have coding experience.
asdfman123 3y ago
Would you rather the person making the decisions about the code you write be a developer too, or not? I’d rather be managed by developers, and you only get that by promoting developers into management. You can stay an individual contributor if you want, and the pay is still very good. If it doesn’t work at your company, you can find others that will let you stay an IC.

1letterunixname 3y ago

"Impact is king." That's the cult at where I presently work. Engineer-led org.

moffkalast 3y ago
As opposed to working in the UK government, where Charles is king.
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  :D
twic 3y ago
A previous employer of mine established promotion guidelines based on the scope of someone's impact - individual, team, department, company, industry. But they never specified the direction of the impact.
- chrsjxn 3y ago
  There are so many ways for "impact" to go wrong during promotions and performance reviews. I think my favorite were projects that just didn't have any metrics. Or that claimed to have metrics, but somehow they were never shared...

ctvo 3y ago

> If you’ve worked more than 4 jobs in the last 4 years, you’re in the danger zone. Many companies will discard a CV quickly if we don’t think you’ll stick around until next year. I mostly agree, but I think 2 jobs in 4 years? Probably fine. There's a line, and I don't think it's very clear cut.

horsawlarway 3y ago
I do a lot of interviewing > There's a line, and I don't think it's very clear cut. is spot on. I would also say 2 jobs in 4 years is ok, but if you have nothing but two year stints - I treat that as a negative.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I agree. Any given shortish stint can be for one of a million reasons. Two can just be luck of the draw especially in startup world. But at some point, things become patterns and, unless you're OK with the pattern, it's probably foolish to think that things will be different this time.
canyonero 3y ago
Personally, I wish we could stop judging individuals without understanding the context. There may be a million different reasons for someone that needs frequent job changes in a four year periods. Asking good questions to candidates will be far more informative and useful to the business than having a set of rules for dismissal or judgement. Furthermore, the company is rarely/never accountable for swiftly laying people off individuals that may otherwise be excellent workers. Frankly, if a company is discarding CVs based on perceived loyalty, then I perhaps those same companies to provide candidates with a contract reciprocates that loyalty via generous raises and job security.
- Scubabear68 3y ago
  This filter may seem unfair, but I have found several short stints on a CV to be a strong signal that they may be short lived with us, too.

bobchadwick 3y ago

> E: Embrace LaTeX How does a hiring manager know that a resume was created using LaTex? I downloaded the author's PDF resume and it pretty much looked like any other PDF.

wunderland 3y ago
It also had a number of lists and most of his jobs were short stints!
olddustytrail 3y ago
If you've used LaTeX a lot it has a distinctive look. I actually write my CV in markdown and use pandoc to generate a PDF from that, but pandoc uses LaTeX to produce PDFs and I've had interviewers comment on it.
- aloer 3y ago
  Does that mean most of the formatting is still done in LaTeX and the only change is the input format?
  - olddustytrail 3y ago
    Nope, I think I have about 2 lines of actual LaTeX, second is to ensure the pagination is correct. Otherwise I just let it use the defaults for headings etc
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  That's actually a great idea
partdavid 3y ago
They won't--it's nonsense. It's something you can point out if you get a screen or interview. But in my experience (and I like LaTeX and the notion of programming with neat markups for documents a lot) it just makes it hard to adapt if someone wants another format (HTML, Word or whatever) and is more of a "quirk" than a positive.

vonnieda 3y ago

"You based your resume tips on a sexual grooming chart?" "As a joke!" "I'm gonna go work somewhere else..." I know cultures are different in different places, but in corporate America this post is all red flags. Always Sunny is hilarious, but I sure wouldn't want to be sitting in HR explaining "the implication" to someone who has never seen the show.

dbg31415 3y ago
I had to Google it... Yeah, not something you want to have to explain in an interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THvCDn8mGwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THvCDn8mGwo
nkingsy 3y ago
My favorite episode, but I think this is maybe one step worse than taking cues from "Succession"
- Minor49er 3y ago
  Dennis is a master of dark patterns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTKZ9Gyqiyo&t=29s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTKZ9Gyqiyo&t=29s
bigmattystyles 3y ago
I'm sure OP can just share his erotic memoir of his exploits to explain.
- jeffwask 3y ago
  Watch out for Sinbad
- jakey_bakey 3y ago
  My memoir is the least erotic literature since The Very Hungry Caterpillar
Syzygies 3y ago
Anyone who follows an acronym for advice isn't cut out to be an effective manager.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

KerrAvon 3y ago

I don’t get the LaTeX thing — won’t recruiters and managers just print your LinkedIn to PDF if they need to pass it around in hardcopy form?

blowski 3y ago
If I did get it in LaTeX I would probably question how much you think about your users, rather than looking clever around other devs.
- olddustytrail 3y ago
  LaTeX isn't the output format. You'd get it as a generated PDF.
  - blowski 3y ago
    The submission seems to suggest sending it in LaTeX to “impress” the hiring manager.
    - jakey_bakey 3y ago
      Addendum: This only works if the hiring manager is a nerd like me
    - unmole 3y ago
      > The submission seems to suggest sending it in LaTeX to “impress” the hiring manager. No, it did not. The author linked his resume as an example: A PDF generated from LaTeX.
partdavid 3y ago
There's a really tiny niche case where someone might notice or, if you point it out, be impressed or amused and have some say in the hiring process, but these will be weird rare situations that you can't predict anyway. I think you should do your resume with your most comfortable tool, and that might be LaTeX (in which case you can expand on it) or it might be Google docs and you know what? That's a pretty common documentation skill to want to have, too.

partdavid 3y ago

I de-emphasize lists of languages and technologies but there's a reason to put them there, and that's for searching and indexing. When I'm looking at a resume I want to see concise and accurate descriptions of accomplishments at the beginning, but I don't think it's a detriment if somewhere there is a list of technologies. Just make sure that everything on your resume is justified and you're able to answer questions about it. Don't put SQL if you can't answer interview questions about it.

ghaff 3y ago

I thought N: Name Recognition was going to go in a different direction. Frankly, what makes a bigger difference than having a known company on your resume (though that probably helps with respect to big Tech companies with known difficult interview processes, albeit for mostly the wrong reasons) is N: Networking. Getting a job through people I've known has worked for me since the last century.

jakey_bakey 3y ago
This is a great comment, I definitely neglected the value this brings.
commandlinefan 3y ago
> Getting a job through people I've known has worked for me Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I've worked at 10 different places since 1992, and I've gotten roughly half through referrals and the rest through recruiters/monster/linkedin/etc. By far the more pleasant experiences have been the "cold" ones that I didn't get through a personal referral.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I'm sure it varies. But the three different places I've worked since the mid-80s have been (post-grad school recruiting) through personal contacts. But then that's a lot different from 10 jobs in 10 years.
dclowd9901 3y ago
For some reason, networking seems to be a dirty word in tech. I went through the same rigorous tech screening as anyone else would for a recent job, despite knowing from previous work experience a colleague that I would be working with in the new position. I understand wanting to be able to cross your Ts and dot your Is, but why not save everyone a boatload of time and just go off a recommendation? I ended up getting the job of course but it wasn’t without jumping through hoop after useless hoop. It’s like they don’t even trust the people they hire.
- 3y ago

jd24 3y ago

Disagree with the latex point. If you are using latex just to put your resume together, you are wasting your time. Just do it in google docs or word. Anyone reviewing your resume won't even care unless you brought it up for some reason.

madduci 3y ago
Why is it a waste of time? With LyX it goes really fast. I use personally Asciidoc and asciidoctor-pdf to generate my resume as PDF. It's easier and less prone to funny formatting shifts typical of Word documents.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
siggen 3y ago
Speaking from experience, Applicant Tracking Systems (ATS) work only ideally with Word. Don’t use LaTeX unless you know for sure the individual receiving appreciates it.
- dunk010 3y ago
  Came here to say this. It’s definitely a bad idea given that so much first stage screening is automated these days. If your CV parses badly you’re just as likely to be silently binned by an algorithm. I say this from personal experience, and now having begrudgingly rolled my CV back from LaTeX to Word.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    On my recent job search, I basically only got responses from smaller companies, and I'm now suspicious that this was the reason.
- alkonaut 3y ago
  But regardless of whether you wrote your resume in word or LaTeX, 99% of the time you'd send it as a PDF, correct? So are you saying LaTeX pdfs will parse worse than Word PDF's in automatic systems?

zeitlupe 3y ago

Imho the problem with LaTeX CVs is that they all look bleak and the same because it is (on purpose) tedious to create anything except the standard format.

Syzygies 3y ago
I needed a sample LaTeX vita file in the early 1980's. I had logins on various math department servers, so I searched from root on each machine, and decided to base my vita on David Mumford's vita source file. That says something about privacy in the era. I felt that what I did was entirely in the spirit of the default file permissions. Various people were nevertheless horrified when they learned that this search was even possible.
howinteresting 3y ago
LaTeX's typesetting really stands out in a resume though. It looks gorgeous on screen or on paper. The spacing between letters and words is perfect.

carrja99 3y ago

Sorry but this is a pretty nonsense post.

jakey_bakey 3y ago
Thanks for the feedback - could you give any feedback for next time? I'm fairly new to writing. (And yes I won't quit my day job!)

cjohnson318 3y ago

LaTeX for your resume?! If someone sumgly sends me a .TEX resume I have to (struggle to) compile instead of a .PDF, then I'm deleting the email and never responding. Yeah, I know LaTeX, but you've totally over-engineered the solution to the problem of writing a resume, and you've already increased my workload instead of decreasing it, even before getting on the payroll! Hard pass.

cesaref 3y ago
I took this as meaning that it should be obvious from the layout that it was a LaTeX document, but I agree, this is not something that i've ever considered when filtering CVs.
- pantalaimon 3y ago
  You can totally see when a résumé was created in LaTeX and I always counted that as a bonus.
  - jldugger 3y ago
    On the other hand, that dude is going to write the FAQ in LaTeX and then complain nobody else contributes.
    - pantalaimon 3y ago
      Write it in Markdown and let Pandoc turn it into LaTeX or whatever you desire
  - jakey_bakey 3y ago
    Yeah, it's more a case of, "me and probably 10% of hiring managers are massively biased in favour of LaTeX if we see it, and the other 90% won't care either way"
    - somenewaccount1 3y ago
      Uhhh..probably you and .2% of hiring managers. I've never cared when hiring, and have never heard this advice anywhere but this post. No offense, but if it was as common as 10%, recruiters and bloggers would be suggesting it left and right.

paxys 3y ago

No one cares if you put your resume together in LaTeX. Hardly anyone working in the software industry even knows what that is. The other tips are fine, but all pretty generic. Moreover "work for a big brand name company" and "don't do short stints" aren't exactly resume writing advice.

jakey_bakey 3y ago
Fair comment. I did try to add tactical things someone could do in the short term to make it less "by the way you're screwed if you didn't do this", but I'll make sure to frame it more specifically in my next posts
- itronitron 3y ago
  markdown to html to pdf is another route for making a clean looking resume
ghostpepper 3y ago
I definitely notice if a resume is written in latex, and while I wouldn't hire someone solely based on that, it's definitely a slight positive in my mind. IMHO it shows they understand the value of visual presentation, using the right tool for the job, and aren't afraid to learn a new programming language.
- asdfman123 3y ago
  Would you say you have LaTex sensitivity?

fishtoaster 3y ago

> Impact is King This seems to be common advice. Whenever I'm reviewing resumes, I can always tell when someone's been given it because their past job descriptions are littered with "...causing a 30% drop in whatever" or "...thus doubling our blah blah blah." Honestly, I've always found those to be pretty content-free. I have no idea if those numbers were actually measured or if you're just guessing. I have no way to know if that project was actually your idea or if you were just implementing someone else's initiative. I have no idea what the team was like and what your actual contribution to the project was. The numbers are meaningless without a ton more context. Sure, I can ask about all of that context in the interview, but I'd do that anyway. It doesn't add anything (for me as a hiring manager, at least) to have it on your resume.

jakey_bakey 3y ago
Agree with this to some extent - I was careful not to parrot the common advice of "use numbers as much as possible" because I always smell some level of BS. But qualitative stuff gives you enough to go on to ask about in the first-round interview.
sigstoat 3y ago
> I have no way to know if that project was actually your idea or if you were just implementing someone else's initiative. I have no idea what the team was like and what your actual contribution to the project was. The numbers are meaningless without a ton more context. is there anything that isn’t meaningless, then? their idea of knowing X, Y and Z likely differs from yours, as well. what will you believe or trust from a resume? (personally i don’t trust any specific element and just look for an overall tone, and then ask about the specific interesting bits.)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dumbotron 3y ago
  > is there anything that isn’t meaningless, then? Invert a binary tree.

throwaway4736 3y ago

You should buy a boat. Then they’ll have to hire you, because of the implication.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 3y ago

Ironically, "Separate Entirely" (from the D.E.N.N.I.S. used in the Always Sunny episode) was changed to "Short Stints are Dangerous". From my point of view, "Separate Entirely" is better advice and it's justified by the given advice of "Short Stints are Dangerous". I "separate" my ego from the process because I know I'm being judged by someone's arbitrary system. "Short Stints are Dangerous" is the irony because it's actually part of someone's arbitrary judgement system. (I also understand that my interpretation is different from the episode of this comedy show. I mean to present it with this other interpretation.) Some of the advice is pretty good, so it's not worth throwing it all out. Just take each piece of advice in turn rather than all or nothing. The "Drive Initiative" advice is solid, especially in terms of discovering what you'd like to accomplish in your job.

jakey_bakey 3y ago
I like this perspective, especially with how harsh the hiring market is today

bitwize 3y ago

No LaTeX. Use Word like a civilized person. Everything goes through an ATS now, and those like Word documents. Hiring managers, HR, and recruiters will thank you.

jakey_bakey 3y ago
Fair comment.
unmole 3y ago
> Everything goes through an ATS now, and those like Word documents. No worthwhile ATS system is going to have trouble parsing a PDF generated from LaTeX. This is a myth that just gets trotted about.

tristor 3y ago

I don't think using LaTeX for the resume matters. I've been using Markdown to build my resume for ages, and I've seen resumes that are handcrafted HTML, and I've seen resumes that are just a text file. The format only matters as much as it display something about you (if you're a web developer/frontend person, you should have a high quality web resume) and how it affects readability. Otherwise, I don't care as a hiring manager / interviewer. If LaTeX helps you get it done and lets you generate multiple formats easily, go for it. I use pandoc + markdown to generate mine, and it supports LaTeX inputs as well. Don't expect the person reading the PDF attached in the hiring system 10 minutes before the interview call to care whether you used LaTeX or not, or even to comment on it.

ericmcer 3y ago

Several points are things that have nothing to do with writing a resume: 'Name Recognition' - You should have worked at FAANG or large companies. 'Short stints' - You should have worked for 1.5+ years at each job. 'Drive Initiatives/Impact is King' - You should be driving features and taking ownership. Those all take years to cultivate and are things you would obviously add to a Resume if you could. I guess the point is to not add in any fluffy BS. The authors point seems to be that people who have impressive credentials are good candidates?

jakey_bakey 3y ago
This is a pretty fair criticism, thank you. I did do my best on the re-drafts to try and ensure I was suggesting workarounds for the name recognition piece; but you're right that a lot of the points do boil down to "be very hireable".
- ericmcer 3y ago
  Yeah no problem, I think every 'how to resume' article has a similar issue. I have tried writing before and it is a huge pain so props for putting this together and getting it out there. Your style is fun and your writing is clear.
  - jakey_bakey 3y ago
    Thank you so much for saying that :)

activitypea 3y ago

> In the recent round of tech layoffs, sometimes it’s unavoidable to have one or two shorter tenures - hiring managers are aware of this, and so this generally doesn’t count against you. But giving the appearance of job hopping in ‘peacetime’ is another thing entirely. > If you’ve worked more than 4 jobs in the last 4 years, you’re in the danger zone. Many companies will discard a CV quickly if we don’t think you’ll stick around until next year. I am so tired of this conversation. At this point, all I can do is shut up and be grateful to be rejected by these people if I ever have a spotty resume.

irrational 3y ago

Regarding the Latex suggestion, how would someone know if it was created using Latex? I’ve looked at many hundreds of resumes and have no idea if any of them were created using Latex.

helianer 3y ago
This only really works if the hirer has used latex themselves. If you know you know.
unmole 3y ago
Using Computer Modern is a a good indication. Also, mandatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/1301/ https://xkcd.com/1301/
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rectangleboy 3y ago
I have the \LaTeX command in my skills line, which is really hard to typeset in anything other than LaTeX. Other engineers notice it unprompted.

scarface74 3y ago

A company that cares about your whether your resume using latex is probably a company I would not want to work for. They would probably spend all day in meetings arguing about tabs vs spaces and other geek minutiae instead of business outcomes.

ackbar03 3y ago

>Hire me… because of the implication Are these hiring managers in danger??

jakey_bakey 3y ago
You certainly wouldn't be any danger!
- ackbar03 3y ago
  So they are in danger!!
  - rekoil 3y ago
    No one's in any danger!

thomasfromcdnjs 3y ago

I've just been sending a url to all my employees for the last decade e.g. https://registry.jsonresume.org/thomasdavis https://registry.jsonresume.org/thomasdavis (p.s. i built it initially) If some recruiter or department asks for a PDF, I tell them to print the page or figure out a way lol

jakey_bakey 3y ago
I'm a big fan of web page CVs too, perhaps I should amend to suggest this as a great alternative
wincy 3y ago
Hey, from one engineer to another, from a place of trying to be helpful, the resume looks very nice, but in the second sentence of your intro you write “use to” rather than “used to”.
- thomasfromcdnjs 3y ago
  Thank you. It has probably been worded as such for about 8 years and no one has corrected it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ntr-- 3y ago

It's baffling to me how many "senior web developers" don't have their CV hosted on a website. Regardless of whether it's plain HTML on a CDN or a hectic fully 3d WebGL demo, a senior dev should have a domain with a https secured connection expressly for showing that they can in fact deploy and maintain a production instance. The recruiter needs a PDF? Have a version linked to at the top of the document, or let them know that they can just press CTRL+P and your beautiful hand crafted css media queries will lay out an equivalent copy ready to be printed. Like a lot of the other comments here, a LaTeX resume signals to me that the applicant probably spends more time code-golfing than implementing practical solutions.

okeuro49 3y ago
> spends more time code-golfing than implementing practical solutions. Code golfing is a too-frequent requirement for interviews. Many companies seem happy to miss out on the senior developers who avoid interview requirements to write code to do a fiddly string manipulation test within 2 minutes.
anikan_vader 3y ago
Why? LaTeX is one of the most useful programming languages to know these days.
- throwaway675309 3y ago
  Which should be obvious from the fact that there's so many companies seeking out LaTeX experts. Oh wait...
nullsense 3y ago
>Regardless of whether it's plain HTML on a CDN or a hectic fully 3d WebGL demo, a senior dev should have a domain with a https secured connection expressly for showing that they can in fact deploy and maintain a production instance. I just don't think this really tells you anything meaningful. At least not with any certainty. I can setup a site on GitHub pages and push to main and that's all I need to do. Virtually no skill is needed to even do this.
3y ago

dclowd9901 3y ago

Ah this is about as douchey as I thought it would be. Congratulations, you wrote a yet another shitty tech article (YASTA). I think my favorite part is right at the very beginning where you relegate anyone who isn’t a self important douche to banality. I’m talking specifically about the section where you send someone who doesn’t conform to the question “what could your company not have done without you” packing. I would say “probably nothing,” because frankly if I wasn’t in that position, someone else probably would have been and they probably would have been able to do anything I could have done, because I don’t think I’m god’s gift to software development. It’s a job. I do it at a level commensurate with my pay. I’m not a singular snowflake. And judging by the demeanor this article was written in, OP is a dime a dozen.

asdfman123 3y ago
You’re forgetting the most important function of a job interview: making the interviewer feel smart and important.

bmitc 3y ago

This type of analysis always falls into the trap that assumes there's a global marker that separates good resumes from bad resumes. There's also some extra assumptions like what tool that was used to produce the resume matters. I know LaTeX quite well but use a Word document for my resume. For me personally, I write my resume in an honest way that reflects what I'd like to show and discuss. It is a teaser for discussions to follow and isn't necessarily meant to tell the whole story, so there's a lot of little short nuggets. I have a lot of detail in the resume, perhaps more than I should and certainly more than recommended by so-called resume experts, but it always seems to work in terms of finding me interesting roles. The thing is that by honestly crafting my resume rather than gamifying it, it filters out roles that aren't a good natural fit for me. And I can always tell when someone would be nice to work with and that there's some shared philosophy because they commented on the non-technical portions of my resume, like my hobbies and inerests, the personality, or my influences (almost all non-technical despite me being in software and engineering) sections. My resume and experience is weird, but I normally like to find weird roles. The greatest complement Inhave received was that my resume was "interesting", with the connotation of they weren't sure what to think of it but liked it. And I'm just a normal person who looks for interesting roles who probably can't (and doesn't want to be) hired at a FAANG. My Amazon interview was miserable. And it was clear my resume wasn't paid attention to. Would have made it easy to turn down the role if I was offered it, which I wasn't.

throwaway675309 3y ago

"Impact is king" No. Content is king, and unfortunately I don't see anything in particular in this article that I haven't heard 1000 times before. The only dubiously unique point that this list contains (which is ironic because one of your points is complaining against lists) is your unusual emphasis on embracing latex. Unless you're E.E. Cummings, writing should be more about the substance and less about the styling, and yeah this is a subtle dig against Latex as well.

bootsmann 3y ago
Meh, I would argue that latex gives you some power to automate mundane customization of the CV for slightly different jobs/companies without any hassle. For instance I have a script that orders my open source contributions and various side stints differently.

5350-uiop-1130 3y ago

using the "dennis" system to describe the average hiring managers is incredibly apt. the entire process now is just designed to see how desperate you are. it's impossible to go through it without losing some dignity.

dhab 3y ago

I have interviewed quite a few now, and for me it might be: (T)ech used before that meets job requirements, (I)nitiatives taken, (C)an my team work well with this person, (K)nowledge acquiring capability on something - proxied by things like successful transitioning from different career path to programming or PHP to Golang etc TICK (Maybe)

creativenolo 3y ago

> No more lists Good point from the point of view of the hiring manager. But there are people involved in the process often before the hiring manager sees a CV. Speaking to a recruiter, they like lists of keywords. Helps them sort through large amounts of CVs. And this behaviour will result on the hiring manager getting similar lists on each CV.

red-iron-pine 3y ago

Embrace LaTeX.... eh. Tried that with 2 column, and later standard looking resume formats. Always got mangled by the auto-parser. Less of an issue with the MS Word ones.

recursv_thnkng 3y ago

I don't understand the obsession with LaTeX. Nobody realistically would care if you coded your resume in LaTeX because it's such a small "project" (a la "hello world") and there's nearly no real-world applications for that. Word templates work just fine and can be exported to PDF when needed.