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As a native Urberliner I am both flattered and confused by the fact so many young Americans choose to live in my home town. I always wondered what makes it so a

As a native Urberliner I am both flattered and confused by the fact so many young Americans choose to live in my home town. I always wondered what makes it so attractive to you. I mean, winters are miserable, the city is ugly compared to many others in Germany, the people are rather not friendly to each other, the German language is difficult to learn, our history is troublesome, German immigration laws still difficult to surmount and Berlin is becoming very expensive to live in these days compared to 20 years ago. Edit: Perhaps I‘ve got the typical love/hate relationship with my home town and don’t see the forest for the trees we keep saying around here ;).

drBonkers 3y ago
I hear it has the best night life, second to Seoul.
- randomluck040 3y ago
  Depends on what you prefer I guess. Also I’m not sure if I’d relocate just for nightlife alone.
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    I think one major plus compared to US is how easy it is to get around. The trains still run (at least weekend nights), and if you’re partying on a day they do not they start up fairly early, so partying til first train is alright. The Uber rides in a city in America at night can get more expensive than the total drink bill I remember spending out in Berlin.
  - et-al 3y ago
    I have an acquaintance that moved there for the electronic music scene, DJ’d regularly at Berghain, and has an Essential Mix. She probably would not have been that successful had she stayed in SF.
  - zamnos 3y ago
    Staying out from Thursday or Friday evening until Monday morning is not for everybody, but Berlin's a city where that's eminently possible.
Barrin92 3y ago
it's the capital, large, already has a big international presence which tends to in turn attract more migrants and it has a great nightlife. The clubbing, music and arts scene in Berlin is vastly better than any other city in Germany in my experience. After that maybe Munich and Cologne? But given the size of our country there's surprisingly not that many cities that are fun.
- wink 3y ago
  Depends on what you're looking for specifically but I'd rate Hamburg higher than both (I'm from Munich).
et-al 3y ago
- easy visa to obtain + fairly cosmopolitan city, but still cheaper than NYC//London/Paris - good location to visit other spots in Europe - probably already have a friend of a friend living there - the party scene Very few Americans intend on living in Berlin permanently, though. It's an extended study abroad session for them.
- nibbleshifter 3y ago
  The average stay IME is less than 18 months. If you stay a few years you will have made and lost touch with a good few friends from all over the world who will have come, partied hard for a year while working for Zalando or N26 or some shit, and fucked off.
worklaptopacct 3y ago
As a new Berliner who immigrated here I can answer some of those: - Berlin has a reputation for its artsy party scene and lax enforcement of drug laws. People come here in their 20s to let themselves loose. - German universities are good quality and free for all (excluding the Semesterpauschale, but for my American or British friends this 300€ is basically nothing in comparison - especially when you count in the public transport ticket that comes with your student card). - Immigration is hard, but you are entitled to permanent residency after you've contributed into the pension system for 5 years total within a continuous period of stay in Germany. People are willing to play the game with the Ausländerbehörde for some time if they know they will eventually become eligible for a permanent stay. - Free, good quality healthcare. Agreed that Berlin is not the representative example in Germany, but for many people coming from places where healthcare is unaffordable or outright dangerous (I'd never want to go to the hospital in my hometown again), this is a huge change for the better. - You can "get by" in Berlin with English only by now, although you'll be highly dependent on others. I know people who've been here for 5+ years and still struggle to order a beer. Not the best way of living, but definitely possible with so many other expats around. - Prices/earnings ratio is still better than in many places in the West. I chose the city myself because I already knew the language (mandatory second language after English at school in my home country), and I don't regret it. You can navigate around the coarse edges and live a good life in here.
- kwanbix 3y ago
  I now what you probably mean when you say "free", that you don't have to pay for it, but in reality, the universities are paid by everyone. Same for health care. I pay 400 euros per month. Of course, then I don't pay much else. But the cost is distributed, they are not "free". Maybe I am sensitive to the word, because in my home country, Argentina, populism has made people believe that everything has to be "free".
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    That's a good point and we should differentiate. The taxes in Europe are very high for a reason.
mmarq 3y ago
Berlin is still cheaper than other major European cities, is big enough to have lots of things to do, has a good nightlife, is very international (as in you can live there without knowing too much German) and, more recently, has developed a good tech scene. On friendliness, I found Berlin more welcoming than Hamburg and Munich. I felt people were friendlier in Köln (apart from the police that wanted to fine me for jaywalking), but it’s much uglier than Berlin.
ben_w 3y ago
I'm British by birth, I chose Berlin after Brexit because: 1. Friends here 2. Alternative countries were Luxembourg/Switzerland (more expensive); Canada (worse weather); Ireland (fear I might get blamed personally for the stupid done by British politicians, and the UK Gov was being loudly stupid about Ireland at the time); USA (weird culture, guns); Australia/New Zealand (too far from the old country to visit regularly); France (I find the language harder than German); Belgium (saw a police officer with a long barrelled gun at the train station and noped out of even visiting it during an Interrail exploration trip); or somewhere where I hadn't even started learning the language. That left Austria, which was an option, but Germany was bigger and I didn't want to risk having to move country for work before getting a permanent right to remain in the EU, which I think I need another 6-12 months for depending on what exactly counts. Alternative cities within Germany: many pretty options, but the tech scene is mostly here, and also the friends.
- lock-the-spock 3y ago
  > Belgium (saw a police officer with a long barrelled gun at the train station and noped out of even visiting it during an Interrail exploration trip); Sounds like you visited not too long after the Paris and Brussels terrorist attacks. I've seen the same in London at times though.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    Just before the Brexit referendum vote, so yes.
    - wink 3y ago
      Same with the security conference in Munich and other days, so not sure that's a perfect reason for Germany per se, but good if you like it :P
- Symbiote 3y ago
  > Belgium (saw a police officer with a long barrelled gun at the train station and noped out of even visiting it during an Interrail exploration trip) You know St Pancras has the same? Although maybe you'd also exclude London on the same basis.
UweSchmidt 3y ago
That sounds like typical German pessimism. Rents are up but compared to some other major cities around the world? And why would the "troublesome" part of our long and rich history prevent people from moving here in 2023? Berlin is safe, cycleable, in the EU, the language not an order of magnitude harder than, say, French and people are speaking English anyway.
- G3rn0ti 3y ago
  > typical German pessimism Yes, it is. What shall I say. :) Typical Berlin phrase BTW: „Kann man nich meckan“. That’s about the highest praise you can expect from an Urberliner.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > „Kann man nich meckan“. > That’s about the highest praise you can expect from an Urberliner. That's the other reason I picked DE over US: British don't say everything is awesome all the time ^_^
  - DemocracyFTW2 3y ago
    The highest culinary praise reserved for the finest of treats is famously "Kannste essn", lit. "you can eat that".
    - G3rn0ti 3y ago
      „Bleibt drinnen“ is quite colloquial, too. ;)
jillesvangurp 3y ago
As a long time expat living in Berlin, it's actually a nice place to live. The city actually has some charm compared to other cities in Germany and it's never boring here. I've spent some time in Munich as well and that caused me to seriously wonder what else there was to do after a few weeks. Not an issue in Berlin. And I've been here for fourteen years. German is completely optional here. I know that's not appreciated by the natives. But I don't actually deal with a lot of those. Almost everyone I know in Berlin is from outside Berlin. And that includes most Germans. A lot of those move to Berlin for many of the same reasons that foreigners do that. I do meet actual real Berliners once in a while and by and large they are actually quite friendly. But the fact is that they are a minority in this city.
tobiasbischoff 3y ago
keep asking myself the same but web / tech employers are attracting all the talent there.
boffinAudio 3y ago
Bowie. It all goes back to Bowie. He's really the one who made Berlin so attractive to young Westerners. We think Berlin is a lovely city, with lots of tolerant people and a diverse set of cultures providing a rich and interesting outlook. Of course, the reality is, Berlin is as much of a shit-hole as any other major European city, but the fantasy of meeting an intelligent, inspired, enlightened 'newly free' young German thing in the streets of Berlin is just too enticing to a lot of us romantics. I live in Vienna. I love to visit Berlin just so that I can come home to Vienna and appreciate what I've got, even if the effect wears off after a week of interacting with Vienners ..
- type0 3y ago
  Do you find Berliners friendlier than Viennese?
  - boffinAudio 3y ago
    Nope. About the same, just grumpy for different reasons.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- CRConrad 3y ago
  > ...but the fantasy of meeting an intelligent, inspired, enlightened 'newly free' young German thing in the streets of Berlin is just too enticing to a lot of us romantics. (East) Berlin (along with the rest of East Germany) was 'newly freed' over thirty ears ago, so none of the people who actually experienced that liberation are all that young any more.
mejutoco 3y ago
I moved to Berlin about 10 years ago. In my opinion Berlin was attractive because: - Friends and people from all over the world - Culturally and historically interesting: clubs, events. - Capital of the biggest economy in Europe - Cheaper (not anymore). Also, clubs because of the particular history. - Slight barrier to entry. A bit of German is a higher barrier to entry, compared to English speaking options. Having said that, I find people friendlier in Köln, although this has improved in Berlin. Also the payment with card has improved in the last 10 years.
pimeys 3y ago
I moved eleven years ago because I loved the party scene. Took me less than a month to find a huge apartment for under seven hundred a month from a nice neighborhood. Now I cannot move out anymore without doubling or tripling my rent. Also chose to study Rust instead of German, and been having so much work afterwards that I still haven't started my German studies. My husband speaks good German so that helps. The weather is awful, our landlord only listens to us if we sue him, the internet seems to always be bad and expensive without hope for any better, the parties are way too crowded and dealing with local bureaucracy is not a great experience. At least the rent is still cheap, if we don't move out. Lots of great art is happening every weekend. Nowadays you have some of the best restaurant scene going on in Berlin. The city is super relaxed about beer and weed, and the parks are great. It is easy to travel around the city with public transport, bike or quick rental cars. But now it is impossible to find apartments, all prices are going up and people are getting angrier every year. My feelings about Berlin are super mixed. But, at least one thing makes me a Berliner: I love to complain about the city.
- m_fayer 3y ago
  I could have written this word for word. Maybe we should do a cranky-HNers-of-Berlin meetup. Some uneasy food for thought: we're not that far off from the brave lucky weirdos who moved to NYC in the 1970s and bought decrepit flats for a song, who now find themselves aged and bewildered among the billionaires, trying to afford groceries. Hopefully it won't progress quite that far, but NYC does show that capital isn't deterred by a little dysfunctional urban chaos.
  - pimeys 3y ago
    And more rich people from outside move in, everything changes into a more boring, but expensive new reality. At least Berliners revolt all the time and the government is so dysfunctional. Change in the city will take a few lifetimes. It might feel like a good idea to invest, but then you face the German and especially the Berlin bureaucracy and how slow it works. Everything takes forever to finish. I hope this will save Berlin from becoming the next New York. It still is so much more colorful than any other German city. P.S. the running joke amongst my friends is how CDU will finally make the ringbahn go on time...

drBonkers 3y ago

I hear it has the best night life, second to Seoul.

randomluck040 3y ago
Depends on what you prefer I guess. Also I’m not sure if I’d relocate just for nightlife alone.
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  I think one major plus compared to US is how easy it is to get around. The trains still run (at least weekend nights), and if you’re partying on a day they do not they start up fairly early, so partying til first train is alright. The Uber rides in a city in America at night can get more expensive than the total drink bill I remember spending out in Berlin.
- et-al 3y ago
  I have an acquaintance that moved there for the electronic music scene, DJ’d regularly at Berghain, and has an Essential Mix. She probably would not have been that successful had she stayed in SF.
- zamnos 3y ago
  Staying out from Thursday or Friday evening until Monday morning is not for everybody, but Berlin's a city where that's eminently possible.

Barrin92 3y ago

it's the capital, large, already has a big international presence which tends to in turn attract more migrants and it has a great nightlife. The clubbing, music and arts scene in Berlin is vastly better than any other city in Germany in my experience. After that maybe Munich and Cologne? But given the size of our country there's surprisingly not that many cities that are fun.

wink 3y ago
Depends on what you're looking for specifically but I'd rate Hamburg higher than both (I'm from Munich).

et-al 3y ago

- easy visa to obtain + fairly cosmopolitan city, but still cheaper than NYC//London/Paris - good location to visit other spots in Europe - probably already have a friend of a friend living there - the party scene Very few Americans intend on living in Berlin permanently, though. It's an extended study abroad session for them.

nibbleshifter 3y ago
The average stay IME is less than 18 months. If you stay a few years you will have made and lost touch with a good few friends from all over the world who will have come, partied hard for a year while working for Zalando or N26 or some shit, and fucked off.

worklaptopacct 3y ago

As a new Berliner who immigrated here I can answer some of those: - Berlin has a reputation for its artsy party scene and lax enforcement of drug laws. People come here in their 20s to let themselves loose. - German universities are good quality and free for all (excluding the Semesterpauschale, but for my American or British friends this 300€ is basically nothing in comparison - especially when you count in the public transport ticket that comes with your student card). - Immigration is hard, but you are entitled to permanent residency after you've contributed into the pension system for 5 years total within a continuous period of stay in Germany. People are willing to play the game with the Ausländerbehörde for some time if they know they will eventually become eligible for a permanent stay. - Free, good quality healthcare. Agreed that Berlin is not the representative example in Germany, but for many people coming from places where healthcare is unaffordable or outright dangerous (I'd never want to go to the hospital in my hometown again), this is a huge change for the better. - You can "get by" in Berlin with English only by now, although you'll be highly dependent on others. I know people who've been here for 5+ years and still struggle to order a beer. Not the best way of living, but definitely possible with so many other expats around. - Prices/earnings ratio is still better than in many places in the West. I chose the city myself because I already knew the language (mandatory second language after English at school in my home country), and I don't regret it. You can navigate around the coarse edges and live a good life in here.

kwanbix 3y ago
I now what you probably mean when you say "free", that you don't have to pay for it, but in reality, the universities are paid by everyone. Same for health care. I pay 400 euros per month. Of course, then I don't pay much else. But the cost is distributed, they are not "free". Maybe I am sensitive to the word, because in my home country, Argentina, populism has made people believe that everything has to be "free".
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  That's a good point and we should differentiate. The taxes in Europe are very high for a reason.

mmarq 3y ago

Berlin is still cheaper than other major European cities, is big enough to have lots of things to do, has a good nightlife, is very international (as in you can live there without knowing too much German) and, more recently, has developed a good tech scene. On friendliness, I found Berlin more welcoming than Hamburg and Munich. I felt people were friendlier in Köln (apart from the police that wanted to fine me for jaywalking), but it’s much uglier than Berlin.

ben_w 3y ago

I'm British by birth, I chose Berlin after Brexit because: 1. Friends here 2. Alternative countries were Luxembourg/Switzerland (more expensive); Canada (worse weather); Ireland (fear I might get blamed personally for the stupid done by British politicians, and the UK Gov was being loudly stupid about Ireland at the time); USA (weird culture, guns); Australia/New Zealand (too far from the old country to visit regularly); France (I find the language harder than German); Belgium (saw a police officer with a long barrelled gun at the train station and noped out of even visiting it during an Interrail exploration trip); or somewhere where I hadn't even started learning the language. That left Austria, which was an option, but Germany was bigger and I didn't want to risk having to move country for work before getting a permanent right to remain in the EU, which I think I need another 6-12 months for depending on what exactly counts. Alternative cities within Germany: many pretty options, but the tech scene is mostly here, and also the friends.

lock-the-spock 3y ago
> Belgium (saw a police officer with a long barrelled gun at the train station and noped out of even visiting it during an Interrail exploration trip); Sounds like you visited not too long after the Paris and Brussels terrorist attacks. I've seen the same in London at times though.
- ben_w 3y ago
  Just before the Brexit referendum vote, so yes.
  - wink 3y ago
    Same with the security conference in Munich and other days, so not sure that's a perfect reason for Germany per se, but good if you like it :P
Symbiote 3y ago
> Belgium (saw a police officer with a long barrelled gun at the train station and noped out of even visiting it during an Interrail exploration trip) You know St Pancras has the same? Although maybe you'd also exclude London on the same basis.

UweSchmidt 3y ago

That sounds like typical German pessimism. Rents are up but compared to some other major cities around the world? And why would the "troublesome" part of our long and rich history prevent people from moving here in 2023? Berlin is safe, cycleable, in the EU, the language not an order of magnitude harder than, say, French and people are speaking English anyway.

G3rn0ti 3y ago
> typical German pessimism Yes, it is. What shall I say. :) Typical Berlin phrase BTW: „Kann man nich meckan“. That’s about the highest praise you can expect from an Urberliner.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > „Kann man nich meckan“. > That’s about the highest praise you can expect from an Urberliner. That's the other reason I picked DE over US: British don't say everything is awesome all the time ^_^
- DemocracyFTW2 3y ago
  The highest culinary praise reserved for the finest of treats is famously "Kannste essn", lit. "you can eat that".
  - G3rn0ti 3y ago
    „Bleibt drinnen“ is quite colloquial, too. ;)

jillesvangurp 3y ago

As a long time expat living in Berlin, it's actually a nice place to live. The city actually has some charm compared to other cities in Germany and it's never boring here. I've spent some time in Munich as well and that caused me to seriously wonder what else there was to do after a few weeks. Not an issue in Berlin. And I've been here for fourteen years. German is completely optional here. I know that's not appreciated by the natives. But I don't actually deal with a lot of those. Almost everyone I know in Berlin is from outside Berlin. And that includes most Germans. A lot of those move to Berlin for many of the same reasons that foreigners do that. I do meet actual real Berliners once in a while and by and large they are actually quite friendly. But the fact is that they are a minority in this city.

tobiasbischoff 3y ago

keep asking myself the same but web / tech employers are attracting all the talent there.

boffinAudio 3y ago

Bowie. It all goes back to Bowie. He's really the one who made Berlin so attractive to young Westerners. We think Berlin is a lovely city, with lots of tolerant people and a diverse set of cultures providing a rich and interesting outlook. Of course, the reality is, Berlin is as much of a shit-hole as any other major European city, but the fantasy of meeting an intelligent, inspired, enlightened 'newly free' young German thing in the streets of Berlin is just too enticing to a lot of us romantics. I live in Vienna. I love to visit Berlin just so that I can come home to Vienna and appreciate what I've got, even if the effect wears off after a week of interacting with Vienners ..

type0 3y ago
Do you find Berliners friendlier than Viennese?
- boffinAudio 3y ago
  Nope. About the same, just grumpy for different reasons.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
CRConrad 3y ago
> ...but the fantasy of meeting an intelligent, inspired, enlightened 'newly free' young German thing in the streets of Berlin is just too enticing to a lot of us romantics. (East) Berlin (along with the rest of East Germany) was 'newly freed' over thirty ears ago, so none of the people who actually experienced that liberation are all that young any more.

mejutoco 3y ago

I moved to Berlin about 10 years ago. In my opinion Berlin was attractive because: - Friends and people from all over the world - Culturally and historically interesting: clubs, events. - Capital of the biggest economy in Europe - Cheaper (not anymore). Also, clubs because of the particular history. - Slight barrier to entry. A bit of German is a higher barrier to entry, compared to English speaking options. Having said that, I find people friendlier in Köln, although this has improved in Berlin. Also the payment with card has improved in the last 10 years.

pimeys 3y ago

I moved eleven years ago because I loved the party scene. Took me less than a month to find a huge apartment for under seven hundred a month from a nice neighborhood. Now I cannot move out anymore without doubling or tripling my rent. Also chose to study Rust instead of German, and been having so much work afterwards that I still haven't started my German studies. My husband speaks good German so that helps. The weather is awful, our landlord only listens to us if we sue him, the internet seems to always be bad and expensive without hope for any better, the parties are way too crowded and dealing with local bureaucracy is not a great experience. At least the rent is still cheap, if we don't move out. Lots of great art is happening every weekend. Nowadays you have some of the best restaurant scene going on in Berlin. The city is super relaxed about beer and weed, and the parks are great. It is easy to travel around the city with public transport, bike or quick rental cars. But now it is impossible to find apartments, all prices are going up and people are getting angrier every year. My feelings about Berlin are super mixed. But, at least one thing makes me a Berliner: I love to complain about the city.

m_fayer 3y ago
I could have written this word for word. Maybe we should do a cranky-HNers-of-Berlin meetup. Some uneasy food for thought: we're not that far off from the brave lucky weirdos who moved to NYC in the 1970s and bought decrepit flats for a song, who now find themselves aged and bewildered among the billionaires, trying to afford groceries. Hopefully it won't progress quite that far, but NYC does show that capital isn't deterred by a little dysfunctional urban chaos.
- pimeys 3y ago
  And more rich people from outside move in, everything changes into a more boring, but expensive new reality. At least Berliners revolt all the time and the government is so dysfunctional. Change in the city will take a few lifetimes. It might feel like a good idea to invest, but then you face the German and especially the Berlin bureaucracy and how slow it works. Everything takes forever to finish. I hope this will save Berlin from becoming the next New York. It still is so much more colorful than any other German city. P.S. the running joke amongst my friends is how CDU will finally make the ringbahn go on time...