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> So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. No, that's wrong. Problem with touch

by jjav 4y ago

> So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. No, that's wrong. Problem with touchscreens is that (1) you need to look at them and (2) there is no tactile feedback of whether you pressed it or not and (3) you need to hover your arm in a moving car at just the right spot. Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. If the actual action has a perceptible delay, that's annoying but not dangerous. Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control, you know the control has been activated even if the effect is delayed. With a touch screen, if there is a delay, you'll have to keep taking your eyes off the road again and again, triple checking if you pressed on the right spot or not.

bradgessler 4y ago
> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems > Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it. If a touch screen interface were properly designed with large enough touch affordances and the correct levels of responsiveness, I'd be just as happy with that as I would a big dashboard full of buttons. For me, when things get dangerous, its when pressing the button (physical or touch) doesn't do what its suppose to do.
- throwaheyy 4y ago
  How many buttons does your car have that you actually have to look?! Mine has lots and I can find the one I want by feel.
- onion2k 4y ago
  my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it For things that you do regularly the button should be optimized to not be in the middle of a cluster. Ideally it'll be somewhere you can see easily (like on the steering wheel), and most importantly of all it isn't dependent on context. In my car I can easily turn on the aircon, or change the music volume, or answer the phone without looking away from the road because I know where the button is and one press always does that thing. On a touchscreen you always need to give it attention because the screen area changes what it does depending on what you've pressed before pressing that area. That is a huge disadvantage. Your point about pressing a button not doing what it's supposed to is right, but I have to admit I can't remember the last time that happened in any car I've owned. Buttons not working isn't a common issue as far as I know.
  - emodendroket 4y ago
    My car does have a second knob opposite the volume knob that has different functions in different contexts and consequently I pretty much never use it
  - PetitPrince 4y ago
    > For things that you do regularly the button should be optimized to not be in the middle of a cluster I found that I was using the wheel warmer button way more than I through I would. It's located right in middle of a cluster on the central console, in an awkward place to look at (right next to my hips in a blind spot). I devised a nice and cheap fix for this UI problem that wouldn't be applicable on a touch screen: I put a googly eye sticker on it. Better tactile feedback, no loss of function, and more whimsy in my otherwise boring car.
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      Brilliant: You've reinvented Braille with googly eyeballs for sighted drivers! It illustrates the point that accessibility isn't only for disabled people. It benefits everyone, and if you're lucky to live long enough, you'll need it more and more as you get older. Unless you're planning to die young, you're not just abled, but predisabled. https://twitter.com/BeingCharisBlog/status/1455890239520587783 https://twitter.com/BeingCharisBlog/status/14558902395205877...
      - acapybara 4y ago
        Everyone is just predisabled? I suppose we're all just pre-dead as well? What a depressing way to look at life. You may want to seek out help from a counselor.
        DonHopkins 4y ago
        I'm glad that by using and defining the word "predisabled", I have raised your consciousness enough to consider your own mortality, and the fact that your vision, hearing, dexterity, mental acuity, and memory are all inevitably going to degrade as you get older. Not everyone is predisabled: many unfortunate people won't live long enough to suffer the consequences of old age. But I'd rather not die before I get old, myself. Do you know anyone currently alive who isn't pre-dead? I certainly hope I'm currently predisabled instead of just short lived, myself. It sounds like you're the one who needs a counselor if you're so depressed and having such a hard time facing the fact that you're getting older and less abled every second, until you die. If you're designing user interfaces, you might want to seek out help from an accessibility specialist.
- wasmitnetzen 4y ago
  You might need to use your eyes to find the button, but once you've seen it, your finger will probably find it while you can look back at the road. Or if you still need to guide your fingers, once you're touching the button, your eyes are free again. There's no need to look at a physical volume knob to get feedback on your actions, there very much is a need for a touchscreen slider.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  > I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it. Do you look down at the shifter every time you use it? It's the same thing really.
- noufalibrahim 4y ago
  I don't think that's the case. e.g. My car's AC controls are physical. I sometimes look at the dials but that's a passing instinct rather than a need. There are three dials and I can feel for the one I want to press with my left hand (our drivers seats are on the right) and then turn it. If I'm adjusting the fan, the sound from the AC gives me sufficient feedback to know if I've set it correctly. This is especially apparent when I'm paying attention to the road more than usual (e.g. while driving through an unfamiliar area). With the entertainment system, it's a tree of menus on a touchscreen to find what I need to do and then the screen has several buttons neatly arranged which I need to look at (not just feel for) to find what I need. When I tap on something, it's not immediately clear to me without looking and verifying whether the function has been executed or not.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  > I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it. It's true of some buttons, but there are lots that you don't, mostly on the dipsticks: indicators, wipers, lights and the like. Others are well delineated and just need a quick glance, but lining up your finger and multiple presses on a touchscreen is not that at all.
- Beldin 4y ago
  > If a touch screen interface were properly designed... Huh? They cannot be. You cannot get the same level of tactile feedback from a touchscreen as from a properly designed knob. > For me, when things get dangerous, its when pressing the button (physical or touch) doesn't do what its suppose to do. I have experienced that regularly in cars. When you have clear, unambiguous feedback that you gave the input exactly how you're supposed to, it's a minor annoyance; you instantly know that the UI failed to pick up on your input. Redo and if failure is consistent, have it repaired. When you have to start debugging whether it's your input method or the UI having an off day, while driving, that's when things get dangerous to me.
  - xmcqdpt2 4y ago
    > Huh? They cannot be. You cannot get the same level of tactile feedback from a touchscreen as from a properly designed knob. That's true but also I feel like they could make much more tactile touch screen if they actually spent the money. For example, you could use a pressure sensitive touch screen so that mere touch doesn't activate buttons, and you could put a haptic feedback mechanism in it like that of Apple that actually informs you when you press something. The haptic feedback could even subtly tell you whether you are touching a button before you click it. The reason they don't do that is that touchscreens are a cost cutting measure and making them as expensive as buttons would cut into margins.
- Fezzik 4y ago
  Car UIs are just overly complex, poorly oriented, and full of cruft these days. Look up the UI of ‘96 Toyota Camry and you’ll see the pinnacle of efficiency. I could manipulate everything I needed to without taking my eyes off the road after a few months of owning the car. It was dead simply and each system was unique enough to distinguish by touch and interpret what the setting was by the knob orientation.
- m463 4y ago
  > I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it You don't realize just how MUCH worse doing it on a touchscreen is. A touchscreen button is in a specific region of space, yet that region jumps and jostles around because the car and the touchscreen are moving and your arm is moving (usually in a different direction). If you bump or drag your knuckles on the touchscreen, you accidentally engage some other control. It's not as bad if the control is at the edge, is a large enough target and the touchscreen has a raised bezel around it to rest your knuckles on, but you still have to use your eyes to locate the button. It's really annoying with tesla - the targets have gotten smaller over time, they've adopted apple's ios 7 mess of buttons that don't look like buttons, and now the buttons move around due to context, or passenger in seat, or other nonsense. Some buttons have state, but it times out. Some buttons can be moved. Some buttons change depending on what you used last. lots of map stuff auto-hides. Buttons along the edge are good, but they made them smaller and left lots of unused space. many buttons are in the middle with no good reason. ugh. My suspicion? I suspect the model S/X touchscreen was designed by people who don't drive a model S/X and test it at their desk with a crappy dell monitor and a mouse.
  - lodovic 4y ago
    Skoda uses gestures, so when I accidentally wave my hand the infotainment system changes page. Really not thought through.
    - theK 4y ago
      Agreed, gesture control in cars is the next worse thing after touchscreens!
- xattt 4y ago
  > I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it Even if that’s the case, you can lightly drag your finger across a row of buttons, and remember that the button is the third one in without taking your eyes off the road.
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  > I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it. Are there no buttons on your car's steering wheel? Really, not even a horn? These can be pressed without even taking your hand off the wheel. And what about indicators, gear shifter, lights, parking brake? Do you "briefly have to look at the console" to find those?
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    > Are there no buttons on your car's steering wheel? Really, not even a horn? <laughs in old Citroën>
    - Lio 4y ago
      Some of those old Citroën dashboards were mental (in a good way). In a crowded field of craziness I'd personally have to place the Citroën Visa high up as bonkersiest of the bonkers. Happy to hear other nominations though.
      - Gordonjcp 4y ago
        Think the facelifted GSA "Star Trek" dashboard was my favourite. I liked the control clusters it had instead of stalks.
        Lio 4y ago
        Yes! Now that was a car with personality. If I owned one of those I'd feel obliged to make myself a mix tape with Jean-Michel Jarre, Cerrone and Desireless. I can just see me rocking up at the pub with Voyage Voyage drifting out the sun roof.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
      In that case, you're not wrong; but as per the original topic, touchscreens are also not your issue.
      - 4y ago
- asadotzler 4y ago
  I do not look at the buttons at all. I keep my hands at about 2:30 and 10:30, just up against the the airbag cross-member. With my right hand I reach out and a tad down but not much and a bit forward and land on the temp knob (also a toggle push button for temp auto mode) and I can do this every time with perfect muscle memory, to the right of that are six buttons, the closest is the power toggle button, then there's the recirculate/outside switch button, then a pair of side by side buttons for fan up and down then vent modes and against the right edge is the ac toggle button. It's a breeze to slide my finger across those buttons from closest to farthesst and know exactly where I am. Depending on which I'm after I can come in from the left or right side. Never need to look as the feedback for all of these is an environmental change I can sense by air movement or temperature or whatever, and so I generally know if I got something right or wrong without looking. On a rare occasion I'll be in a rush to flip from outside air to recirculate and will hit the fan down button but that's immediately recognizable and I correct and then easily reach the recirculate button. Below that space under a lip in the dash face, is, first in line to the right of the temp knob, my 3 stage heated seat button, then the windshield defroster, then the big giant slightly elevated hazard button in the middle and the rear defroster to the right of that. Like with the controls above, I start at the temp dial for orientation and then can usually leap right to the button I want since that distinctive center hazard button provides wayfinding at the mid point. Reaching down to the console I have two dials, a big one and a small one and I can easily land on the right one directly from the steering wheel in one jump. Then, still without looking, I can rest my hand on and move the dial leisurely, under no pressure for having my arm extended into space holding a specific pose, muscles poised to move quickly as soon as my gaze can align with my finger tips and the touch screen. Instead, my fingers fiddle the knob and usually get what I want on their own, or with only peripheral vision on the screen, but certainly those fingers can just sit there indefinitely until my eyes are safely free to make a glance that's not down at the knob, but due east, horizontally and to the right, atop the dashboard where a low and wide horizontal screen can be seen without losing peripheral vision directly in front of the vehicle and even some out to the left. The two dials are also joysticks and push buttons. Navigating the stock software and Android Auto are about equally easy and only require peripheral vision on the high-mounted screen most of the time, or the occasional short glances where I can have my eyes on it and the road in front of me considerably more at the same time than if the screen were extending down toward or even to the console. I've been through models of this same car that were screenless, fully touchscreen, hybrid, and now they've completely dropped the touchscreen and settled on dials and buttons far away from the screen. This is the way.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  You can touch and feel physical buttons without looking at them. When you touch a touchscreen, you can't feel the buttons, and it always triggers whatever button you touched. If you have so much trouble with physical buttons, then you'll have even more trouble with touch screens. Maybe you should stay off the road.
- zamnos 4y ago
  If you want to get better at manipulating your car's buttons without looking, practice doing various tasks with your eyes closed while stopped at a light. If that sounds ridiculous, just own the same car for 15 years instead. Realistically unless it's a rental car you're unfamiliar with so you don't know where you're going, you should be able to move your hand to the approximate area and feel your way to the right button without activating all the buttons you come across. Touch screens have no such luxury - a graze is a press, the same as an actual press, and because it's a smooth surface, so even if you know the button you want is the second from the bottom, you can't find the bottom button and then go up one. Ultimately the problem with the touch screen interface is that it has to be looked at, in order for the user to know what mode it's in. Is it in climate control? Is it in radio mode? Is it in Carplay navigation mode or deep in settings? Who knows! Let's find out by not looking at the road where the cars and people are. As a pedestrian, this does not fill me with joy.
- tp34 4y ago
  Do you need to look at your computer mouse to "click" the button(s)? Assuming you possess this basic competence, I find myself wondering how you managed to purchase a vehicle with such absurd ergonomics. You have a strange, poorly designed vehicle This "big dashboard full of buttons." Please provide a picture. Is this a custom design? "For me, when things get dangerous, its [sic] when pressing the button (physical or touch) doesn't do what its [sic] suppose [sic] to do." What actions are you referring to? Changing the audio volume? The interior fan speed? You may want to consider researching your vehicle purchases more rigorously.
  - itsoktocry 4y ago
    >What actions are you referring to? Changing the audio volume? The interior fan speed? This entire thread has me wondering the same thing. I've owned many cars and drive far more than average. What are y'all adjusting so much that's causing issues here? If we exclude infotainment, which even the best have lousy driving ergonomics, you need to be able to turn wipers on/off (most are automatic now), turn the HVAC up or down (many you can just leave at a single temperature in more modern systems) and turn your headlights on/off, high/low (these have been automatic in the last few cars I've owned). Most other things should be adjusted before you start driving. What are you having to adjust, outside your music, that's so difficult?
    - quacksilver 4y ago
      Some things that I personally have have had to do include adjusting the HVAC to have full output on the windscreen on a hot setting, enable the rear demister / mirror heaters or turn the hazard lights on. The windows or mirrors steaming up is a visibility issue and is dangerous if you allow it to occur. This may not be needed at the start of the drive if people's breath gradually steams up the windows or the weather changes. I have noticed that passengers from warmer climates probably don't have the same problems as they didn't understand this and were complaining at me to turn the fan off. Though I always buy cars with physical buttons that are in ergonomic places and wouldn't buy something with a touch screen. I am also not sure how a touch screen would work with the thin gloves that I wear in winter when driving to work in the early morning.
- gog 4y ago
  I guess it depends on the car, I don't need to look at the buttons in my car, at least not the ones on the steering wheel and the ones by the main console that are used for navigation (including a navigation wheel). There are a few buttons I would need to look at but they are not something I would usually need while driving.
- jclardy 4y ago
  Yeah - I do wonder if a giant touchscreen with permanent controls (Zero context switching) could be nearly as effective as a climate panel with fixed buttons. Part of the issue of a touchscreen in a car today is that every single view is context dependent, whereas a physical volume knob is always in the same spot, performing the same singular function. My chevy has fixed buttons/knobs, but the only one I don't have to look for is the volume knob. There are too many climate buttons that I use maybe once every two weeks for me to gain any muscle memory from pressing them.
  - LorenPechtel 4y ago
    It wouldn't work because you still have to use your eyes to guide you to the spot since it can't be done by touch. A simple demonstration of this back from the 80s: My mother was blind. Along come microwave ovens with their flat control surfaces with push buttons behind. She had no way to find the buttons without inadvertently triggering wrong buttons. Labeling them would have been fine if she was alone but a problem with sighted people in the house. She solved it with a crude jig to let her locate buttons without applying pressure, but that was a two-handed operation that required concentration and still wouldn't work on a true touch screen.
- ulizzle 4y ago
  Likely a problem with your memory. Why do you always have to look at the console to find where your volume knob is? If you can touch-type on a keyboard, you should be able to remember where the buttons are.
IceWreck 4y ago
Why not have haptic feedback like in phones
- emodendroket 4y ago
  It's only a partial solution. You can feel a button without operating it and you can distinguish it among others by feel.
- neuronic 4y ago
  Every button with major function can have different surfaces and haptics according to function. After driving a car for a week or two I typically get really good at just using buttons without looking. But that's just subjective. The VW ID.3s I drive I can only change stuff at red lights or parking spots because of the terrible UX mixed with the downsides of touchscreens. Also regular freezing and crashes. I would be curious to see a well implemented, fast response touchscreen design. I am strongly in favor of buttons but I would love to try a touchscreen operating with the boundaries set by users in this thread (16ms reposne time etc...). I will keep an open mind but have not seen a working example yet.
- fps_doug 4y ago
  That solves that one problem, but you still get the feedback only when you pressed it, you cannot feel where the button is without looking. I can blindly turn the AC on or off, adjust the fan speed, turn on the hazard lights and adjust the volume of the radio in my car, because it's all good old buttons and knobs. How is that supposed to work with a touch screen?
- GuB-42 4y ago
  Because haptics "like in phones" suck. They are nothing but vibration motors. There have been a lot of research of patents for more interesting interaction, but what we have now is arguable worse than what we had in a Nokia 3310 (because of the lower mass of the motors). The feedback is like if the entire screen was a single button. Haptic tech I have seen are ways to vary the drag coefficient across the screen, tiny actuators that deform the screen, or use of interference to create vibration on a specific location. There is even touchless haptics, using ultrasound. The only instance where a manufacturer seemed to care was with the iPhone 6 "Taptic Engine", which is little more than a better vibration motor, giving a better "whole screen button" effect. But they didn't improve further, in fact, if anything, the newer models are worse.
Xelbair 4y ago
It is not about 'looking and pushing' the button. It's about stateful UI. physical layout of buttons is usually stateless - press button thing turns on, press it again it turns off. You don't need to think in which menu you are, and where to press, while driving.
- hnick 4y ago
  Compounding this on a touchscreen is slippage. Cars can be bumpy. If you slip and hit the wrong control it can take an unacceptably large amount of concentration (given what you are meant to be actually concentrating on when driving) to work out where you are now, how to get back to where you are, and try to do the original thing again. A few seconds of confusion and distraction is more than enough to kill. Tactile buttons are usually much harder to press by mistake. I'm glad my i30 only seems to require the touchscreen for CarPlay (a necessary evil), or settings which I'd generally only check when parked.
  - lodovic 4y ago
    Especially this. I had too many times where the road was bumpy and I needed to press a button on the infotainment system. You need to rest your thumb off screen first in order to be able to press the correct button on the touchscreen. It's an unsafe way to control the car.
    - hnbad 4y ago
      Funny. I usually rest all my other fingers offscreen to press with my thumb as that feels like it gives me the most stable tap.
  - ta1243 4y ago
    > or settings which I'd generally only check when parked. I think this is key. I'm perfectly happy to adjust the frequency/folume of the rear reverse sensors, or the date/time format, or whatever, via a touchscreen. Stuff I use while driving though is a different thing completely, that's where physical buttons come in. Fortunatly my Skoda meets this - temperature, volume, radio channel etc all on buttons.
DeathArrow 4y ago
Yes, but if you are bored from a long drive, you can watch some commercials on the screen or navigate 20 submenus to move the AC one degree up or down. Are you sure you want to modify the temperature? Please read the following agreement and type I AGREE if you agree.
- Lio 4y ago
  That's a great idea. They could even allow you to rent features in exchange for watching more ads. Features like Heated Seats, Navigation, Spotify ...and Brakes. Coming to dystopian future BMW, Tesla, Mercedes (terms and conditions may apply). :(
AmericanChopper 4y ago
> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems That’s not true with all buttons. Those infinitely turning dials have some of the same problems, especially with response latency and the same magnitude of input not always resulting in the same magnitude of change. The presence of the dial is better than the touchscreen, but with those dials you still need to monitor the screen to get feedback on how much change you’re (usually slowly) effecting.
TheFragenTaken 4y ago
The fact that these cars pass safety certification, makes me question certifiers. It's illegal to look at your phone while driving, for good reason, but it's legal to fiddle with a damn computer screen, because it's part of the car. I predict it's a matter of time before we'll see a correlation between number of crashes, and cars with touchscreens.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  In many states you can absolutely use your phone while driving, either to call someone or actively use gps without a window mount. What’s explicitly prohibited is texting/writing and driving.
  - justeleblanc 4y ago
    The US is not a beacon of consumer safety. In my European country, having your phone in your hand while driving is illegal.
    - nosequel 4y ago
      I live in a state where phone use is legal and I am so jealous of you right now. I see near misses on the road every-single-day.
    - martyvis 4y ago
      Same here in Australia. I actually think we have developed the technology (and the matching legislation) that allows pole mounted cameras to detect this while driving at 110kmh down the expressway. I know many people that have been "busted" and even though I use a handsfree holder, just placing (when you forgot to do so before you drive off) is just as illegal here. I did laugh when of course sometimes they would pickup someone holding a chocolate bar while driving. While not necessarily the best thing to do with the one hand, not illegal all the same.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      There are US states that have the same law. The way that the separations of powers work in the US, basically all driving laws are set by the states. The rules for driving can and do change when you cross state lines in the US, sometimes significantly. It really doesn't make any sense to talk about specific driving laws in the US as a monolith.
thatjoeoverthr 4y ago
Strong disagree about response time. There is a huge difference between a quick glance and tap, and having to watch an interface and figure out if it registered the touch or not. An unresponsive screen demands significant extra attention because you have to monitor it.
acapybara 4y ago
Our Subaru has a physical volume knob. Its position is only a "gentle suggestion" to the software to move volume up or down. At times, especially when starting the vehicle, there is major latency in the software processing the knob movement.. Also, if the knob is moved too fast, the sw gets the wrong reading. This results in volume being way too high for serveral seconds as well as many other frustrating, dangerous situations. UX in cars made in the 60s were better than this. I don't think slapping on fake physical knobs onto laggy buggy software is a solution at all.
- alliao 4y ago
  sounds like a different type of hell, didn't realise it could get this bad!
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    Thing is... most of these are quite small bugs. The software development team working on this stuff for just a week or two more would have fixed 80+% of these. Problem is they probably had project managers breathing down their necks about "don't spend time working on non-release-blocking tickets".
    - brookst 4y ago
      Why did the project managers introduce the bugs in the first place?
- theposey 4y ago
  good i hate this so much, same in a honda odyssey
- hasmolo 4y ago
  i'm dropping my subaru for this among other reasons. 1. throttle response, move your foot to 20% and experience between no throttle and wide open as the 'turbos' kick in in my outback 2. every time we get near an intersection with bollards, it thinks it's a kid and slams on the brakes 3. you're not allowed to persist auto start disabling 4. you will be nagged for looking anywhere other than dead straight, especially if looking around a curve, you'll get beeped at 5. sometimes when driving the main 'touchscreen' just dies, takes about 5 minutes to reboot, and the entire time i have no climate or audio control, luckily the adaptive cruise control seems to stay working, you just can't reenable it...
shaky-carrousel 4y ago
Big latency is distracting. Random latency is hugely distracting.
naravara 4y ago
> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. It depends on how the physical button works. You functionally don't get tactile feedback if the response time isn't good. You don't actually always know that you've activated a control (e.g. Did I not press it hard enough? Did I need to rotate it further?) Cheap buttons or knobs or dials can often feel mushy and be unclear as to whether you've fully turned them or pushed them. Not taking eyes off the road is definitely better, but general distraction is still a problem even if you don't have to look away.
gofreddygo 4y ago
Physical buttons have the distinct advantage of being physical (duh!) I can triangulate my way to the right button on the dashboard with just my fingers without ever taking eyes off the road. I can touch and feel a button without "pressing" or activating it. Impossible with a touch screen! Buttons can be differently shaped to make this even better. Touch screens invite and allow bad ux with nested menus. You need to know which screen you're on, which menu is activated. I know distinctly if I pressed a button once or twice or thrice, or long pressed it. No dice with touch screens. No software update will ever change the physical layout of those buttons. Period. So much simpler. And if buttons are more expensive, well thats good ! Make it harder to put more buttons. We don't need more. Anecdotally, my 2006 prius had a touch screen. Always worked as expected, no lag. I could never, through 5 years of ownership, change the temp, or start the defogger without looking at the screen. A nissan I drove last week with physical buttons, took me a day to get used to with physical buttons and knobs for these functions. I dont see a single end user benefit for touch screens. I see a bunch of reasons for the manufacturer tho.

by jjav 4y ago

bradgessler 4y ago

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems > Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it. If a touch screen interface were properly designed with large enough touch affordances and the correct levels of responsiveness, I'd be just as happy with that as I would a big dashboard full of buttons. For me, when things get dangerous, its when pressing the button (physical or touch) doesn't do what its suppose to do.

throwaheyy 4y ago
How many buttons does your car have that you actually have to look?! Mine has lots and I can find the one I want by feel.
onion2k 4y ago
my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it For things that you do regularly the button should be optimized to not be in the middle of a cluster. Ideally it'll be somewhere you can see easily (like on the steering wheel), and most importantly of all it isn't dependent on context. In my car I can easily turn on the aircon, or change the music volume, or answer the phone without looking away from the road because I know where the button is and one press always does that thing. On a touchscreen you always need to give it attention because the screen area changes what it does depending on what you've pressed before pressing that area. That is a huge disadvantage. Your point about pressing a button not doing what it's supposed to is right, but I have to admit I can't remember the last time that happened in any car I've owned. Buttons not working isn't a common issue as far as I know.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  My car does have a second knob opposite the volume knob that has different functions in different contexts and consequently I pretty much never use it
- PetitPrince 4y ago
  > For things that you do regularly the button should be optimized to not be in the middle of a cluster I found that I was using the wheel warmer button way more than I through I would. It's located right in middle of a cluster on the central console, in an awkward place to look at (right next to my hips in a blind spot). I devised a nice and cheap fix for this UI problem that wouldn't be applicable on a touch screen: I put a googly eye sticker on it. Better tactile feedback, no loss of function, and more whimsy in my otherwise boring car.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Brilliant: You've reinvented Braille with googly eyeballs for sighted drivers! It illustrates the point that accessibility isn't only for disabled people. It benefits everyone, and if you're lucky to live long enough, you'll need it more and more as you get older. Unless you're planning to die young, you're not just abled, but predisabled. https://twitter.com/BeingCharisBlog/status/1455890239520587783 https://twitter.com/BeingCharisBlog/status/14558902395205877...
    - acapybara 4y ago
      Everyone is just predisabled? I suppose we're all just pre-dead as well? What a depressing way to look at life. You may want to seek out help from a counselor.
      - DonHopkins 4y ago
        I'm glad that by using and defining the word "predisabled", I have raised your consciousness enough to consider your own mortality, and the fact that your vision, hearing, dexterity, mental acuity, and memory are all inevitably going to degrade as you get older. Not everyone is predisabled: many unfortunate people won't live long enough to suffer the consequences of old age. But I'd rather not die before I get old, myself. Do you know anyone currently alive who isn't pre-dead? I certainly hope I'm currently predisabled instead of just short lived, myself. It sounds like you're the one who needs a counselor if you're so depressed and having such a hard time facing the fact that you're getting older and less abled every second, until you die. If you're designing user interfaces, you might want to seek out help from an accessibility specialist.
wasmitnetzen 4y ago
You might need to use your eyes to find the button, but once you've seen it, your finger will probably find it while you can look back at the road. Or if you still need to guide your fingers, once you're touching the button, your eyes are free again. There's no need to look at a physical volume knob to get feedback on your actions, there very much is a need for a touchscreen slider.
emodendroket 4y ago
> I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it. Do you look down at the shifter every time you use it? It's the same thing really.
noufalibrahim 4y ago
I don't think that's the case. e.g. My car's AC controls are physical. I sometimes look at the dials but that's a passing instinct rather than a need. There are three dials and I can feel for the one I want to press with my left hand (our drivers seats are on the right) and then turn it. If I'm adjusting the fan, the sound from the AC gives me sufficient feedback to know if I've set it correctly. This is especially apparent when I'm paying attention to the road more than usual (e.g. while driving through an unfamiliar area). With the entertainment system, it's a tree of menus on a touchscreen to find what I need to do and then the screen has several buttons neatly arranged which I need to look at (not just feel for) to find what I need. When I tap on something, it's not immediately clear to me without looking and verifying whether the function has been executed or not.
dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
> I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it. It's true of some buttons, but there are lots that you don't, mostly on the dipsticks: indicators, wipers, lights and the like. Others are well delineated and just need a quick glance, but lining up your finger and multiple presses on a touchscreen is not that at all.
Beldin 4y ago
> If a touch screen interface were properly designed... Huh? They cannot be. You cannot get the same level of tactile feedback from a touchscreen as from a properly designed knob. > For me, when things get dangerous, its when pressing the button (physical or touch) doesn't do what its suppose to do. I have experienced that regularly in cars. When you have clear, unambiguous feedback that you gave the input exactly how you're supposed to, it's a minor annoyance; you instantly know that the UI failed to pick up on your input. Redo and if failure is consistent, have it repaired. When you have to start debugging whether it's your input method or the UI having an off day, while driving, that's when things get dangerous to me.
- xmcqdpt2 4y ago
  > Huh? They cannot be. You cannot get the same level of tactile feedback from a touchscreen as from a properly designed knob. That's true but also I feel like they could make much more tactile touch screen if they actually spent the money. For example, you could use a pressure sensitive touch screen so that mere touch doesn't activate buttons, and you could put a haptic feedback mechanism in it like that of Apple that actually informs you when you press something. The haptic feedback could even subtly tell you whether you are touching a button before you click it. The reason they don't do that is that touchscreens are a cost cutting measure and making them as expensive as buttons would cut into margins.
Fezzik 4y ago
Car UIs are just overly complex, poorly oriented, and full of cruft these days. Look up the UI of ‘96 Toyota Camry and you’ll see the pinnacle of efficiency. I could manipulate everything I needed to without taking my eyes off the road after a few months of owning the car. It was dead simply and each system was unique enough to distinguish by touch and interpret what the setting was by the knob orientation.
m463 4y ago
> I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it You don't realize just how MUCH worse doing it on a touchscreen is. A touchscreen button is in a specific region of space, yet that region jumps and jostles around because the car and the touchscreen are moving and your arm is moving (usually in a different direction). If you bump or drag your knuckles on the touchscreen, you accidentally engage some other control. It's not as bad if the control is at the edge, is a large enough target and the touchscreen has a raised bezel around it to rest your knuckles on, but you still have to use your eyes to locate the button. It's really annoying with tesla - the targets have gotten smaller over time, they've adopted apple's ios 7 mess of buttons that don't look like buttons, and now the buttons move around due to context, or passenger in seat, or other nonsense. Some buttons have state, but it times out. Some buttons can be moved. Some buttons change depending on what you used last. lots of map stuff auto-hides. Buttons along the edge are good, but they made them smaller and left lots of unused space. many buttons are in the middle with no good reason. ugh. My suspicion? I suspect the model S/X touchscreen was designed by people who don't drive a model S/X and test it at their desk with a crappy dell monitor and a mouse.
- lodovic 4y ago
  Skoda uses gestures, so when I accidentally wave my hand the infotainment system changes page. Really not thought through.
  - theK 4y ago
    Agreed, gesture control in cars is the next worse thing after touchscreens!
xattt 4y ago
> I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it Even if that’s the case, you can lightly drag your finger across a row of buttons, and remember that the button is the third one in without taking your eyes off the road.
SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it. Are there no buttons on your car's steering wheel? Really, not even a horn? These can be pressed without even taking your hand off the wheel. And what about indicators, gear shifter, lights, parking brake? Do you "briefly have to look at the console" to find those?
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > Are there no buttons on your car's steering wheel? Really, not even a horn? <laughs in old Citroën>
  - Lio 4y ago
    Some of those old Citroën dashboards were mental (in a good way). In a crowded field of craziness I'd personally have to place the Citroën Visa high up as bonkersiest of the bonkers. Happy to hear other nominations though.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      Think the facelifted GSA "Star Trek" dashboard was my favourite. I liked the control clusters it had instead of stalks.
      - Lio 4y ago
        Yes! Now that was a car with personality. If I owned one of those I'd feel obliged to make myself a mix tape with Jean-Michel Jarre, Cerrone and Desireless. I can just see me rocking up at the pub with Voyage Voyage drifting out the sun roof.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    In that case, you're not wrong; but as per the original topic, touchscreens are also not your issue.
    - 4y ago
asadotzler 4y ago
I do not look at the buttons at all. I keep my hands at about 2:30 and 10:30, just up against the the airbag cross-member. With my right hand I reach out and a tad down but not much and a bit forward and land on the temp knob (also a toggle push button for temp auto mode) and I can do this every time with perfect muscle memory, to the right of that are six buttons, the closest is the power toggle button, then there's the recirculate/outside switch button, then a pair of side by side buttons for fan up and down then vent modes and against the right edge is the ac toggle button. It's a breeze to slide my finger across those buttons from closest to farthesst and know exactly where I am. Depending on which I'm after I can come in from the left or right side. Never need to look as the feedback for all of these is an environmental change I can sense by air movement or temperature or whatever, and so I generally know if I got something right or wrong without looking. On a rare occasion I'll be in a rush to flip from outside air to recirculate and will hit the fan down button but that's immediately recognizable and I correct and then easily reach the recirculate button. Below that space under a lip in the dash face, is, first in line to the right of the temp knob, my 3 stage heated seat button, then the windshield defroster, then the big giant slightly elevated hazard button in the middle and the rear defroster to the right of that. Like with the controls above, I start at the temp dial for orientation and then can usually leap right to the button I want since that distinctive center hazard button provides wayfinding at the mid point. Reaching down to the console I have two dials, a big one and a small one and I can easily land on the right one directly from the steering wheel in one jump. Then, still without looking, I can rest my hand on and move the dial leisurely, under no pressure for having my arm extended into space holding a specific pose, muscles poised to move quickly as soon as my gaze can align with my finger tips and the touch screen. Instead, my fingers fiddle the knob and usually get what I want on their own, or with only peripheral vision on the screen, but certainly those fingers can just sit there indefinitely until my eyes are safely free to make a glance that's not down at the knob, but due east, horizontally and to the right, atop the dashboard where a low and wide horizontal screen can be seen without losing peripheral vision directly in front of the vehicle and even some out to the left. The two dials are also joysticks and push buttons. Navigating the stock software and Android Auto are about equally easy and only require peripheral vision on the high-mounted screen most of the time, or the occasional short glances where I can have my eyes on it and the road in front of me considerably more at the same time than if the screen were extending down toward or even to the console. I've been through models of this same car that were screenless, fully touchscreen, hybrid, and now they've completely dropped the touchscreen and settled on dials and buttons far away from the screen. This is the way.
DonHopkins 4y ago
You can touch and feel physical buttons without looking at them. When you touch a touchscreen, you can't feel the buttons, and it always triggers whatever button you touched. If you have so much trouble with physical buttons, then you'll have even more trouble with touch screens. Maybe you should stay off the road.
zamnos 4y ago
If you want to get better at manipulating your car's buttons without looking, practice doing various tasks with your eyes closed while stopped at a light. If that sounds ridiculous, just own the same car for 15 years instead. Realistically unless it's a rental car you're unfamiliar with so you don't know where you're going, you should be able to move your hand to the approximate area and feel your way to the right button without activating all the buttons you come across. Touch screens have no such luxury - a graze is a press, the same as an actual press, and because it's a smooth surface, so even if you know the button you want is the second from the bottom, you can't find the bottom button and then go up one. Ultimately the problem with the touch screen interface is that it has to be looked at, in order for the user to know what mode it's in. Is it in climate control? Is it in radio mode? Is it in Carplay navigation mode or deep in settings? Who knows! Let's find out by not looking at the road where the cars and people are. As a pedestrian, this does not fill me with joy.
tp34 4y ago
Do you need to look at your computer mouse to "click" the button(s)? Assuming you possess this basic competence, I find myself wondering how you managed to purchase a vehicle with such absurd ergonomics. You have a strange, poorly designed vehicle This "big dashboard full of buttons." Please provide a picture. Is this a custom design? "For me, when things get dangerous, its [sic] when pressing the button (physical or touch) doesn't do what its [sic] suppose [sic] to do." What actions are you referring to? Changing the audio volume? The interior fan speed? You may want to consider researching your vehicle purchases more rigorously.
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >What actions are you referring to? Changing the audio volume? The interior fan speed? This entire thread has me wondering the same thing. I've owned many cars and drive far more than average. What are y'all adjusting so much that's causing issues here? If we exclude infotainment, which even the best have lousy driving ergonomics, you need to be able to turn wipers on/off (most are automatic now), turn the HVAC up or down (many you can just leave at a single temperature in more modern systems) and turn your headlights on/off, high/low (these have been automatic in the last few cars I've owned). Most other things should be adjusted before you start driving. What are you having to adjust, outside your music, that's so difficult?
  - quacksilver 4y ago
    Some things that I personally have have had to do include adjusting the HVAC to have full output on the windscreen on a hot setting, enable the rear demister / mirror heaters or turn the hazard lights on. The windows or mirrors steaming up is a visibility issue and is dangerous if you allow it to occur. This may not be needed at the start of the drive if people's breath gradually steams up the windows or the weather changes. I have noticed that passengers from warmer climates probably don't have the same problems as they didn't understand this and were complaining at me to turn the fan off. Though I always buy cars with physical buttons that are in ergonomic places and wouldn't buy something with a touch screen. I am also not sure how a touch screen would work with the thin gloves that I wear in winter when driving to work in the early morning.
gog 4y ago
I guess it depends on the car, I don't need to look at the buttons in my car, at least not the ones on the steering wheel and the ones by the main console that are used for navigation (including a navigation wheel). There are a few buttons I would need to look at but they are not something I would usually need while driving.
jclardy 4y ago
Yeah - I do wonder if a giant touchscreen with permanent controls (Zero context switching) could be nearly as effective as a climate panel with fixed buttons. Part of the issue of a touchscreen in a car today is that every single view is context dependent, whereas a physical volume knob is always in the same spot, performing the same singular function. My chevy has fixed buttons/knobs, but the only one I don't have to look for is the volume knob. There are too many climate buttons that I use maybe once every two weeks for me to gain any muscle memory from pressing them.
- LorenPechtel 4y ago
  It wouldn't work because you still have to use your eyes to guide you to the spot since it can't be done by touch. A simple demonstration of this back from the 80s: My mother was blind. Along come microwave ovens with their flat control surfaces with push buttons behind. She had no way to find the buttons without inadvertently triggering wrong buttons. Labeling them would have been fine if she was alone but a problem with sighted people in the house. She solved it with a crude jig to let her locate buttons without applying pressure, but that was a two-handed operation that required concentration and still wouldn't work on a true touch screen.
ulizzle 4y ago
Likely a problem with your memory. Why do you always have to look at the console to find where your volume knob is? If you can touch-type on a keyboard, you should be able to remember where the buttons are.

IceWreck 4y ago

Why not have haptic feedback like in phones

emodendroket 4y ago
It's only a partial solution. You can feel a button without operating it and you can distinguish it among others by feel.
neuronic 4y ago
Every button with major function can have different surfaces and haptics according to function. After driving a car for a week or two I typically get really good at just using buttons without looking. But that's just subjective. The VW ID.3s I drive I can only change stuff at red lights or parking spots because of the terrible UX mixed with the downsides of touchscreens. Also regular freezing and crashes. I would be curious to see a well implemented, fast response touchscreen design. I am strongly in favor of buttons but I would love to try a touchscreen operating with the boundaries set by users in this thread (16ms reposne time etc...). I will keep an open mind but have not seen a working example yet.
fps_doug 4y ago
That solves that one problem, but you still get the feedback only when you pressed it, you cannot feel where the button is without looking. I can blindly turn the AC on or off, adjust the fan speed, turn on the hazard lights and adjust the volume of the radio in my car, because it's all good old buttons and knobs. How is that supposed to work with a touch screen?
GuB-42 4y ago
Because haptics "like in phones" suck. They are nothing but vibration motors. There have been a lot of research of patents for more interesting interaction, but what we have now is arguable worse than what we had in a Nokia 3310 (because of the lower mass of the motors). The feedback is like if the entire screen was a single button. Haptic tech I have seen are ways to vary the drag coefficient across the screen, tiny actuators that deform the screen, or use of interference to create vibration on a specific location. There is even touchless haptics, using ultrasound. The only instance where a manufacturer seemed to care was with the iPhone 6 "Taptic Engine", which is little more than a better vibration motor, giving a better "whole screen button" effect. But they didn't improve further, in fact, if anything, the newer models are worse.

Xelbair 4y ago

It is not about 'looking and pushing' the button. It's about stateful UI. physical layout of buttons is usually stateless - press button thing turns on, press it again it turns off. You don't need to think in which menu you are, and where to press, while driving.

hnick 4y ago
Compounding this on a touchscreen is slippage. Cars can be bumpy. If you slip and hit the wrong control it can take an unacceptably large amount of concentration (given what you are meant to be actually concentrating on when driving) to work out where you are now, how to get back to where you are, and try to do the original thing again. A few seconds of confusion and distraction is more than enough to kill. Tactile buttons are usually much harder to press by mistake. I'm glad my i30 only seems to require the touchscreen for CarPlay (a necessary evil), or settings which I'd generally only check when parked.
- lodovic 4y ago
  Especially this. I had too many times where the road was bumpy and I needed to press a button on the infotainment system. You need to rest your thumb off screen first in order to be able to press the correct button on the touchscreen. It's an unsafe way to control the car.
  - hnbad 4y ago
    Funny. I usually rest all my other fingers offscreen to press with my thumb as that feels like it gives me the most stable tap.
- ta1243 4y ago
  > or settings which I'd generally only check when parked. I think this is key. I'm perfectly happy to adjust the frequency/folume of the rear reverse sensors, or the date/time format, or whatever, via a touchscreen. Stuff I use while driving though is a different thing completely, that's where physical buttons come in. Fortunatly my Skoda meets this - temperature, volume, radio channel etc all on buttons.

DeathArrow 4y ago

Yes, but if you are bored from a long drive, you can watch some commercials on the screen or navigate 20 submenus to move the AC one degree up or down. Are you sure you want to modify the temperature? Please read the following agreement and type I AGREE if you agree.

Lio 4y ago
That's a great idea. They could even allow you to rent features in exchange for watching more ads. Features like Heated Seats, Navigation, Spotify ...and Brakes. Coming to dystopian future BMW, Tesla, Mercedes (terms and conditions may apply). :(

AmericanChopper 4y ago

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems That’s not true with all buttons. Those infinitely turning dials have some of the same problems, especially with response latency and the same magnitude of input not always resulting in the same magnitude of change. The presence of the dial is better than the touchscreen, but with those dials you still need to monitor the screen to get feedback on how much change you’re (usually slowly) effecting.

TheFragenTaken 4y ago

The fact that these cars pass safety certification, makes me question certifiers. It's illegal to look at your phone while driving, for good reason, but it's legal to fiddle with a damn computer screen, because it's part of the car. I predict it's a matter of time before we'll see a correlation between number of crashes, and cars with touchscreens.

geraldwhen 4y ago
In many states you can absolutely use your phone while driving, either to call someone or actively use gps without a window mount. What’s explicitly prohibited is texting/writing and driving.
- justeleblanc 4y ago
  The US is not a beacon of consumer safety. In my European country, having your phone in your hand while driving is illegal.
  - nosequel 4y ago
    I live in a state where phone use is legal and I am so jealous of you right now. I see near misses on the road every-single-day.
  - martyvis 4y ago
    Same here in Australia. I actually think we have developed the technology (and the matching legislation) that allows pole mounted cameras to detect this while driving at 110kmh down the expressway. I know many people that have been "busted" and even though I use a handsfree holder, just placing (when you forgot to do so before you drive off) is just as illegal here. I did laugh when of course sometimes they would pickup someone holding a chocolate bar while driving. While not necessarily the best thing to do with the one hand, not illegal all the same.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    There are US states that have the same law. The way that the separations of powers work in the US, basically all driving laws are set by the states. The rules for driving can and do change when you cross state lines in the US, sometimes significantly. It really doesn't make any sense to talk about specific driving laws in the US as a monolith.

thatjoeoverthr 4y ago

Strong disagree about response time. There is a huge difference between a quick glance and tap, and having to watch an interface and figure out if it registered the touch or not. An unresponsive screen demands significant extra attention because you have to monitor it.

acapybara 4y ago

Our Subaru has a physical volume knob. Its position is only a "gentle suggestion" to the software to move volume up or down. At times, especially when starting the vehicle, there is major latency in the software processing the knob movement.. Also, if the knob is moved too fast, the sw gets the wrong reading. This results in volume being way too high for serveral seconds as well as many other frustrating, dangerous situations. UX in cars made in the 60s were better than this. I don't think slapping on fake physical knobs onto laggy buggy software is a solution at all.

alliao 4y ago
sounds like a different type of hell, didn't realise it could get this bad!
- londons_explore 4y ago
  Thing is... most of these are quite small bugs. The software development team working on this stuff for just a week or two more would have fixed 80+% of these. Problem is they probably had project managers breathing down their necks about "don't spend time working on non-release-blocking tickets".
  - brookst 4y ago
    Why did the project managers introduce the bugs in the first place?
theposey 4y ago
good i hate this so much, same in a honda odyssey
hasmolo 4y ago
i'm dropping my subaru for this among other reasons. 1. throttle response, move your foot to 20% and experience between no throttle and wide open as the 'turbos' kick in in my outback 2. every time we get near an intersection with bollards, it thinks it's a kid and slams on the brakes 3. you're not allowed to persist auto start disabling 4. you will be nagged for looking anywhere other than dead straight, especially if looking around a curve, you'll get beeped at 5. sometimes when driving the main 'touchscreen' just dies, takes about 5 minutes to reboot, and the entire time i have no climate or audio control, luckily the adaptive cruise control seems to stay working, you just can't reenable it...

shaky-carrousel 4y ago

Big latency is distracting. Random latency is hugely distracting.

naravara 4y ago

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. It depends on how the physical button works. You functionally don't get tactile feedback if the response time isn't good. You don't actually always know that you've activated a control (e.g. Did I not press it hard enough? Did I need to rotate it further?) Cheap buttons or knobs or dials can often feel mushy and be unclear as to whether you've fully turned them or pushed them. Not taking eyes off the road is definitely better, but general distraction is still a problem even if you don't have to look away.

gofreddygo 4y ago

Physical buttons have the distinct advantage of being physical (duh!) I can triangulate my way to the right button on the dashboard with just my fingers without ever taking eyes off the road. I can touch and feel a button without "pressing" or activating it. Impossible with a touch screen! Buttons can be differently shaped to make this even better. Touch screens invite and allow bad ux with nested menus. You need to know which screen you're on, which menu is activated. I know distinctly if I pressed a button once or twice or thrice, or long pressed it. No dice with touch screens. No software update will ever change the physical layout of those buttons. Period. So much simpler. And if buttons are more expensive, well thats good ! Make it harder to put more buttons. We don't need more. Anecdotally, my 2006 prius had a touch screen. Always worked as expected, no lag. I could never, through 5 years of ownership, change the temp, or start the defogger without looking at the screen. A nissan I drove last week with physical buttons, took me a day to get used to with physical buttons and knobs for these functions. I dont see a single end user benefit for touch screens. I see a bunch of reasons for the manufacturer tho.