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It's hilarious (in a way) seeing USians comment on this post. The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. As an explanation, there

by rswail 4y ago

It's hilarious (in a way) seeing USians comment on this post. The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. As an explanation, there are two different things called "Apple Pay" in the US. One is the use of the secure element/wallet in an iPhone/watch to store an EMV card that is tokenized. The other is the Apple branded credit card issued by Goldman Sachs. Leaving aside the branded credit card, the Apple Pay process is a standard that Apple worked with Visa/MC (and Google and Samsung) to develop. Essentially, a customer of a bank enrolls their card into Apple/Google/Samsung Pay and there is a tokenization service that provisions the phone Secure Element with an EMV "application" and the tokenized card. The card has a different number to the actual issued card, maintaining the first 6 (issuer ID) and last 4 digits of the issued card (CPAN - Customer Primary Account Number) to establish a "DPAN". When the phone is tapped, as far as the reader is concerned, it is a standard EMV card. The reader will go through its standard business rules for floor limits, PINs etc and process the transaction. The merchant only gets the "6+4" digits of the card, the DPAN is sent over the network to the tokenization service, which translates the DPAN to the CPAN and sends the transaction to the issuing bank for authentication and payment. The lack of being able to get the "real" CPAN is why some US merchants still refuse Apple/Google/Samsung Pay, specifically because they lose the ability to track customers. The problem in the US, is instead of going to "Chip + PIN" like the rest of the world, the US went to "Chip + Signature" which removes the benefits of Chip+PIN in terms of fraud reduction etc.

27fingies 4y ago
eh, apple pay's been available for 9 years now. ROW had more POS's that were ready to go day 1 because of the existing contactless support but if you had a supported US bank you could use it.
- rswail 4y ago
  Rest-of-the-world had Visa/MC forcing merchants to upgrade on a faster schedule than the US, because the US card environment has many more middle-man processors in the mix that would lose their slice of the transactions. Also large retailers that "self-acquired" didn't want to invest in upgraded readers, or lose access to the card details. Breaches like Target's where a bunch of actual CPANs and customer details were stolen started to force the US to upgrade. Enforcing PCI compliance of separation and encryption of CHI has also forced US companies and banks to upgrade.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pas 4y ago
    anyone else wondering CHI is cardholder information
    - AmericanChopper 4y ago
      The correct acronym is CHD (Cardholder Data). Using specialised acronyms in normal conversation is annoying enough when you use the right ones…
      - rswail 4y ago
        I always get PII and CHD mixed up :) Sorry, to clarify: PII: Personally Identifiable Information (relates to GDPR etc) CHD: Card Holder Data (relates to EMV etc) CHD is a form of PII, but PII has greater scope.
        sbuk 4y ago
        Just to throw confusion into the mix, PCI (payment card industry) governs credit/debit card standards, including security in the US.
woodruffw 4y ago
The second one you’re referring to is called “Apple Card” in the US; I’ve never heard anyone (or Apple) refer to it as “Apple Pay,” except in the sense when using Apple Pay with an Apple Card.
- rswail 4y ago
  Yup, sorry, my mistake, it's a bit like "Apple TV" the device, "Apple TV" the app, and "Apple TV+" the streaming service. Apple Card was/is Apple's way to promote contactless EMV in the US, which in turn promotes use of Apple Pay on the phone/watch. Apple Card is a US only thing though AFAIK.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Apple Card was/is Apple's way to promote contactless EMV in the US Apple Card, with fewer than 7mm users, was launched half a decade after Apple Pay [1][2]. Apple sells over 200mm iPhones a year here. Apple Card was not a way to promote contactless payment, it's a margin play. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pay [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Card
    - JimmyAustin 4y ago
      The physical Apple Card itself doesn’t even support contactless payment, it needs to physically be swiped or inserted.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > physical Apple Card itself doesn’t even support contactless payment, it needs to physically be swiped or inserted Its sole purpose is to be swiped. It's well made, but I don't think they want people using it.
        ioblomov 4y ago
ecspike 4y ago
Chip + Signature depends on the venue which makes it really annoying. Went to a new city, one place out of the four I visited required a signature, the rest were fine with tap to pay/chip+Pin. Some places are fine until some arbitrary limit, etc. The place that made me sign? The purchases were $5-$6.
- rswail 4y ago
  Chip + Signature is a dumb USian thing because merchants didn't want to change their readers to have a secure PIN pad. Contactless has different floor limits than Contact (chip). For example, in AU, the limit for contactless without PIN is ~AUD100. In the UK, I believe its GBP30. If you tap for a payment over that limit, the reader will ask for the PIN. The primary difference is that if a customer uses contactless/contact and PIN, then the risk of the transaction is passed to the network/issuer, instead of the merchant.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Chip + Signature is a dumb USian thing because merchants didn't want to change their readers to have a secure PIN pad Americans don't want to punch in a PIN. We have more cards per capita and are habituated to the convenience of a swipe. (Unlike much to the world, our fraud risk sits almost entirely on the merchant side.) Contactless had no hope with a PIN. Merchants catered to that despite higher cost and risk.
    - messe 4y ago
      > Contactless had no hope with a PIN I’m not sure if it’s true for all EU countries and banks, but in general you don’t put in your PIN every time with contactless. The card usually works for a number of transactions without a PIN, often up to a certain limit, after which it asks you to insert it again.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > in general you don’t put in your PIN every time with contactless As an American, I never get prompted in Europe for a PIN. Even for large transactions. That matches a swipe's convenience.
lyime 4y ago
Apply pay (with faceID) is a much better experience than chip+pin.
- rswail 4y ago
  The point is that as far as the merchant's reader is concerned, there's no difference. It uses NFC to read a card. If it's required to get a PIN because of floor limits etc, it will still ask for a PIN. Chip+PIN is the basis of contactless+PIN, same EMV standard, same stuff happens under the covers. Different business rules for merchant risk, chargeback etc
  - Hamuko 4y ago
    >If it's required to get a PIN because of floor limits etc, it will still ask for a PIN. That doesn't happen with Apple Pay though, since it's an authenticated NFC payment. My (physical) Visa card has a 50€ contactless limit but with Apple Pay, I can just use it to the card's limits. I've paid for a 880€ MacBook with just tapping my Apple Watch against a reader.
    - rswail 4y ago
      That has nothing to do with Apple Pay and everything to do with the merchant's reader, their transaction acquirer, and their merchant bank. As far as the reader is concerned, for contactless, there is no, as in none as in nada difference between a contactless payment with a physical Visa card, or a contactless payment using Apple Pay (or Google or Samsung Pay). They are all "authenticated NFC payments".
    - shawabawa3 4y ago
      The limits are up to the provider, phone payments are more secure because they require you to unlock so generally the providers have higher or no limits It doesn't change the fact that the reader doesn't know if it's a phone or not, it's just a contactless payment standard
      - 4y ago
raverbashing 4y ago
Exactly And for most transactions it's just 'tap your card' (no pin), no need to have it in the phone.
- rswail 4y ago
  The difference is that when you tap your card, it uses your CPAN directly. Plus you have to carry around your cards. When I'm not travelling for work, I only have my phone. No need for wallet, has drivers license, Medicare (AU), and my credit/debit cards in the Apple wallet. I haven't used physical cash in AU except very rarely for about a year now.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    You're right Though I'd never travel without my wallet, I like having a backup plan if something happens to my phone
    - rswail 4y ago
      I never used to go anywhere without my wallet, but during COVID, and now beyond, I rarely use my wallet when I'm at home. I still need to carry it when I'm driving, because our drivers licenses haven't been able to download to the Wallet yet, but once that happens, I won't need my physical wallet.
      - ghaff 4y ago
        Even if I didn't need to have my driver's license with me when I left the house, I think it would take a lot to convince me not to generally carry my small (business card holder) front pocket wallet with me. Being dependent of having a charged and working phone for almost literally everything is something I wouldn't be generally comfortable with even with a smart watch which would be a backup for most payments.
TheRealNGenius 4y ago
I don’t know where the hell you’re from, but the word you’re looking for is american
- tallanvor 4y ago
  You could phrase it much more politely, but yes, it is very unusual to see anyone write "USian". Some people are trying to normalize "American" to mean anyone from North or South America, but the reality is, of course, that 99.9% of the time, American means people from the US.
  - rswail 4y ago
    I use the term USian as a part joke but to explicitly talk about the US, as opposed to other "american" nations like CA or MX. Here we're talking about the difference between the card networks and merchant acquiring in the US vs elsewhere in the world.
    - xeonmc 4y ago
      [dead]
    - plandis 4y ago
      It’s the United States of Mexico, which everyone shortens to Mexico but for some reason you’re not okay shortening the United States of America to Americans? Honestly United Statesian is more confusing because that ambiguously could refer to Mexicans. It really sounds like you’re trying to troll and yeah people generally don’t like it if you intentionally get their nationality wrong.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > It’s the United States of Mexico No, the official name (in English) is the United Mexican States. (In Spanish, its structurally the same as the Spanish name of the USA (Estados Unidos Méxicanos vs. Estados Unidos Americanos, but the English names do not follow the same structure.) > which everyone shortens to Mexico but for some reason you’re not okay shortening the United States of America to Americans? People in American States [0] that are not the United States of America have very good reasons to prefer to distinguish the adjective for “belonging to the Americas” for the one for “belonging to the United States of America”. > Honestly United Statesian is more confusing because that ambiguously could refer to Mexicans. Yeah, that would be a problem if we also needed to distinguish the adjective referring to association with México-the-country from some supranational uses of México but were already using Estadounidense to make that distinction for different uses of “America”, but…that problem doesn’t exist for México, to start with. [0] see, e.g., the terminology used by the OAS https://www.oas.org/en/about/principles.asp https://www.oas.org/en/about/principles.asp
kanbara 4y ago
i don’t understand what the point of talking about us adoption of nfc payment vs chip+pin is. i’ve lived in several countries and used apple wallet in all of them + the us since 2012. and my german bank only got a card available in wallet in 2021… chip and sign is dumb, but nfc and apple wallet work just as well in the states as they do anywhere else.
- seniorivn 4y ago
  The older the banking system is, the less modern it is. Germany was a technological leader before the 1st world war, and still is in some ways, and could be considered a financial center for at least part of the world for the same period(like the eu) So it's financial system is horrible, the same for all "modern" countries. If you want to see modern finance, look at countries that are wealthy enough to afford it but only became this way in the last few decades(like since the 90s) A politically heated examples: if you go to the farthest village of Russia, where only poor people live(for example 12h drive from Irkutsk), you will be able to pay with contactless payments in their local store(before the war, you would be able to pay with Visa/Mastercard/Apple/Google/etc). And in China you will be able to pay with qr codes based payments even to a homeless entrepreneur on the street, that tries to sell you selfmade slippers, or something like that.
  - derriz 4y ago
    I don’t recognize the pattern you describe. For various reasons I’ve done a lot of travel over the last month or so - 2 “old money” European countries, a “new money” European country, a Middle Eastern country and Australia and I didn’t use cash or have to sign anything once in 5 or 6 weeks - I paid for everything with a contactless card. Unless something has dramatically changed in the last 2 years, my experience in the USA during my last trip there was that of a payments system that seemed stuck in the 1970s. In my experience, the global division would be between the USA and the rest of the world.
    - plandis 4y ago
      Can you describe stuck in the 70s? I just use contactless pay pretty much exclusively unless a place is cash only (which isn’t the norm). What are you doing in your country?
scarface74 4y ago
> It's hilarious (in a way) seeing USians comment on this post. The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. The iPhone 6S with Apple Pay came out in 2015. > The lack of being able to get the "real" CPAN is why some US merchants still refuse Apple/Google/Samsung Pay, specifically because they lose the ability to track customers. I don’t think I’ve been to many merchants that don’t take Apple Pay. One of the annoying ones is AMC movie theaters.
- sunbum 4y ago
  >The iPhone 6S with Apple Pay came out in 2015. Contactless payment doesnt require a phone, the first contactless payment cards have existed since 2007 [1] [1] - https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/17411/barclaycard-rolls-out-oyster-payments-card https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/17411/barclaycard-rolls...
  - kailanb 4y ago
    They launched this with one of the most memorable TV adverts of all time, in my opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYEcZh2QtwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYEcZh2QtwA
- rswail 4y ago
  The difference is that in most of the world, merchants are required to provide at least contact ("Chip+PIN") readers and as of a few years ago, fully support contactless reading. It's only the US as a major environment that has delayed (and delayed) applying the same rules, or that adopted Chip+Signature in the first place.
- ghaff 4y ago
  AFAIK Walmart, for example, doesn't take Apple Pay. One of the reasons I don't really use Apple Pay is that I know (unless there are large cash only signs) that a credit card will work and, for me, it's at least as easy.
evancox100 4y ago
> The merchant only gets the "6+4" digits of the card, the DPAN is sent over the network to the tokenization service, which translates the DPAN to the CPAN and sends the transaction to the issuing bank for authentication and payment. > The lack of being able to get the "real" CPAN is why some US merchants still refuse Apple/Google/Samsung Pay, specifically because they lose the ability to track customers. Looking at you, HEB
- hstan4 4y ago
  Multiple times I’ve forgotten my wallet at H‑E‑B and was hoping Apple Pay was accepted
zamnos 4y ago
It's not material to your post but the DPAN isn't detokenized, but is sent to the networks (Visa/MC) to be charged. Privacy.com serves the purposes of a per-merchant PAN (read: credit card number) online without having to use apple pay.
- rswail 4y ago
  The DPAN is eventually detokenized prior to submission to the issuer for authentication and payment. So from Apple Pay wallet -> reader -> acquirer -> network -> issuer, the DPAN is used. When it reaches the issuer, the issuer detokenizes DPAN -> CPAN to process the request. When it responds, it retokenizes etc for the response.
gregsadetsky 4y ago
A question regarding this - I’ve discovered that using “Express Mode” [0] does allow the transit organization to connect your real credit card to what I assumed was the tokenized DPAN. How is that possible? Specifically: there’s a transit org (I’ve tried to reach them about this issue, to no avail) that lets you enter your (real, CPAN) credit card number on their public web site and get back your “own” (if it happens to be your card…) transit history i.e. the times when you tapped your iPhone/Android on their NFC/tap enabled turnstiles. So, they /do/ seem to have a way to either get the CPAN when the card is tapped, or maybe they can tokenize the CPAN in the same way as the phone and then compare the tokens…? I thought that could not be possible but it 100% works. To me it’s a huge security problem. But again, I have not heard back from them at all. Do you understand how they do it? Thanks [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212171 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212171
- aardvark179 4y ago
  I’m not sure how they do it but I think it requires a special agreement with the token issuers.
- zamnos 4y ago
  If you name the transit authority doing this, it'd be possible to look at what the iPhone/Android phone is actually doing. One possibility is the information being shared when using the NFC isn't your CPAN or DPAN at all, but is a 3rd identifier with which they deanonymize you.
  - rswail 4y ago
    If you use an EMV card in transit, then the Visa/MC rules say that the same card must be used to pay for the fare. Transit providers are not allowed to use the EMV card purely as "identification". I answered elsewhere on the thread about how the transit provider is able to use the EMV as an identifier after it has been used for payment, with a one way hash sent to the transit provider.
  - _rs 4y ago
    I believe OMNY is one system which operates as OP is describing
shawabawa3 4y ago
> When the phone is tapped, as far as the reader is concerned, it is a standard EMV card When I went to the US nobody seemed to understand this. Loads of shops would have a sticker saying "Apple Pay Accepted" or something, and when I took out my Pixel phone they would say, oh that isn't an iPhone that won't work. Of course, it worked every time because the card reader has no idea what brand of phone it is or if it's even a phone at all..
- ghaff 4y ago
  Yeah although I was just in Europe and it seems like pretty much everyone just taps a card [ADDED: This is probably an overstatement but lots seem to use a card.] rather than using their phone from what I saw. For most circumstances, even with an Apple Watch, it seems way easier in most circumstances to just tap a card than fumbling with electronics. Even compared to a few years ago, contactless payments seemed way more prevalent and frictionless. In Amsterdam, on the advice of a local, I did buy a chip card for transit as systems are still in the process of switching but my understanding is various transit systems there and elsewhere increasingly let you just tap a contactless credit card.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    I see a mix of card tapping and phone tapping here. I myself only use my card when my phone is out of battery or when the amount to pay is larger than the bank allows by default (though I'm pretty sure you can raise that). It was pretty weird seeing Apple users around me get excited about finally being able to pay with their phones when the first bank here started offering Apple Pay. I guess they never noticed that every other brand of smartphone had been doing that for give years at that point? As for the public transit system, the stupid mess of checking in and out at varioustterminals still exists, but they are indeed working on using bank cards for public transit. They're of limited use though (no ability to store discounts and such) and not all transit companies accept them yet. I'm not sure what the situation is with credit cards, as the Netherlands is very much debit card oriented. The cards follow the same standards, but as any American trying to do groceries here will find out, that doesn't mean all cards will work on all terminals.
3D30497420 4y ago
The use of signatures in the US boggles my mind. Who checks this ever? I worked retail for years in the US and I would usually check the signature and (very rarely) challenge a signature. The customer was almost never happy I did this, so I generally wouldn't bother unless there were other reasons to be concerned. (For example, kids clearly using their parents card or someone who wrote "see ID" on the card.) One additional thought: I now live in Europe, and use my contactless card for payments. However, sometimes it fails and I am required to use my chip and PIN. (I'm guessing because the bank thought the transaction needed additional security for some reason.) In this case, if I only had my phone, I would be stuck?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- arminluschin 4y ago
  With Apple Pay it never asks for PIN (been using for years). I'm no expert, but I think authenticating with FaceID/TouchID means it always provides the equivalent of a PIN.
  - pasc1878 4y ago
    I think it can ask for a PIN but it is the PIN of the phone when FaceID does not work so is not the card PIN.
- trollied 4y ago
  Chip & PIN cards (at least in the UK) have limits before you're forced to verify again via C&P. It's usually a £ amount or # of transactions. Apple Pay does not force the above, as you have already identified yourself via mandatory biometrics or device PIN.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    The re-verification isn't a hard spending limit or count. There's some fuzzy logic (or like the kids today would say "AI") behind it. Basically it references the purchase to your history and if there's something funky it forces you to re-auth. Mostly happens to me on vacations and road trips when I pay in multiple locations 100s of km away from each other. But I've never had to do it at my local grocery store(s), even though I might visit them multiple times a week.
orwin 4y ago
Interesting, i've never looked too much into the credit card universe. What i know is that almost 50 (times flies, i originaly wrote 40...) years ago, my uncle worked a bit with secure terminals at a French company (forgot the name, but i know he lived in Spain for a while), then was yanked by a company that worked with American Express, took the Paris-NY Concord at least a hundred time to try to implement the same stuff he did in Europe in the US (chip + PIN), was distraught because the issue weren't technical and somehow transformed from engineer to executive, and ended up being an auditor for money laundering and fraud detection in major banks (received death threats and had bodyguards for a while). Don't know if it is related, but the first time i went in the US i remembered some stories he told me about this American Express job and said to myself "Yeah, that checks out".
- rvnx 4y ago
  The company sounds like Gemplus / Gemalto :) Yes, there is no reason to believe that the chip+pin is a technical issue, it's mostly business / political with lot of (financial) interests under. Often policies like that are decided because of lobbying: some people found large niches on how to make money, and they try to convince others to not change their habits even if the new system would benefit the masses (like the situation with the imperial system).
kranke155 4y ago
Wait so contactless are not normal in the US??
- markus92 4y ago
  It's not uncommon but a few major retailers like Walmart, Kroger, Home Depot and Lowe's for example don't accept it. It's also not too common in hospitality (they take your card to the cash register, instead of bringing the payment terminal to you).
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  It is, except at Walmart/Home Depot/Lowes/hotels/wait service restaurants and a few other brands in my experience.
  - yurishimo 4y ago
    The Home Depot I frequently used in Dallas supported contactless payments. Might be your area. Walmart however did not.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Interesting. Did it also accept Apple Pay? Between west coast and northeast coast, I have never seen a Home Depot accept any kind of contactless payment, even with newly installed self checkout systems.
      - yurishimo 4y ago
        I think so? That's the only thing I use. It's possible that I'm not remembering correctly. FWIW I was also using the self checkout thingy. A cursory google search suggests that most HD stores do not accept it. There are some reddit threads about individual stores gaining support. Perhaps I lived in a test market? Hopefully they rollout support soon!
  - plandis 4y ago
    I literally just paid with NFC at Home Depot like 3 hours ago.
dwighttk 4y ago
>As an explanation, there are two different things called "Apple Pay" in the US… No Apple Card is not called Apple Pay
weberer 4y ago
>It's hilarious (in a way) seeing USians comment on this post. The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. Huh? I remember making contactless payments from my Samsung phone in the USA back in 2013 just fine. It had an unfortunate name at the beginning, but otherwise worked great. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softcard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softcard
- giobox 4y ago
  As nice as your Samsung might have been, it's pretty absurd IMO to claim contactless was as prevalent in the USA in 2013 as it was in European countries like say France or the UK. Huge nationwide retailers such as Walmart and Kroger held out adopting practically forever, and there are loads of other examples who haven't adopted or only did so very recently - The Home Depot, Lowes, Starbucks... > https://www.macrumors.com/2023/04/15/kroger-fred-meyer-apple-pay/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/04/15/kroger-fred-meyer-apple...
  - glenngillen 4y ago
    I was living in London circa 2010/2011 when some friends from the US came to visit. I recall having to use my card to hire bikes for them (the Barclays/"Boris" bikes) because it required a tap from a chip+pin card to release them from the locks. My US friends had no such cards. Yet they were clearly ubiquitous enough in the UK at the time to make it a hard requirement for getting a bike.
personjerry 4y ago
> The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. Perhaps it's better to specify which parts of the world, I'm assuming you mean US and Canada versus Europe and China. Meanwhile, most developing nations (which make up a majority of the countries in the world) still operate primarily on cash.
- drowsspa 4y ago
  In Brazil even beggars accept money through their phones and everywhere there's contactless payment.
- philistine 4y ago
  Canada is at the forefront of contactless payments. Most Canadians had a contactless physical credit card before Apple Pay came to Canada. Because of that, most people in Canada don't bother to set up their phone; they just swipe their physical card, no pin or signature needed for lower amounts.
tiernano 4y ago
> The reader will go through its standard business rules for floor limits, PINs etc and process the transaction. Just on the limits part; here in Ireland (and probably a good chunk of Europe) the limit on a physical card is around EUR50. But on Apple Pay (and probably other phone-based card payments that I have tried) that limit is removed... I have bought TVs (EUR500+) and put a deposit on a car (EUR1000) with Apple Pay and no issues. Some terminals do have issues (older ones that the store just couldn't be arsed updating have a max 50 limit, even on Apple Pay) but most do not have this issue. Long story boring; there must be something somewhere that tells it the limit is increased. Also, the reason is the security Apple Pay and others give. You will have a very hard time explaining how someone got passed your face id for a payment...
xiande04 4y ago
> The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. I think you have a very narrow view of "the rest of the world"! Try "Europe and East Asia" for a little more accuracy ;)
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  you can easily add a lot of Oceania to that too.
mcshicks 4y ago
My understanding was the reason the US didn't end up transitioning to chip and pin was they couldn't transfer the liability in the case of compromised pin. That is the consumer liability would still be limited to $50. So there was no incentive for the card network to roll it out in the US. You still get the benefits of the fact the card cannot be copied which is significant.
deleted 4y ago
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matt-attack 4y ago
I would had the user experience of having to enter a PIN on each transition. Fraud prevention is not my problem and I wouldn’t want to be inconvenienced in a veiled attempt to reduce fraud. Apple Pay is quite the nice experience especial with the Apple Watch. It even getting out your phone is heavenly. Only thing I wish now is having to double-tap the button on my watch to initiate the process. Would to just hold it up.
r00fus 4y ago
> As an explanation, there are two different things called "Apple Pay" in the US. One is the use of the secure element/wallet in an iPhone/watch to store an EMV card that is tokenized. The other is the Apple branded credit card issued by Goldman Sachs. You're incorrect about the 2nd. The 2nd "thing" is called Apple Card - most people know the difference. I haven't been refused Apple Pay (ie, EMV) almost anywhere in the US unless that place simply only accepts cash.
anvuong 4y ago
I agree on the current state of US cashless system. I moved here last year from a SEA country, I was surprised the amount of fees for a cash withdrawl, it's charged both ways which is ridiculous. In my country, if banks joins the national system (which are most of them), then there is no fees for transactions between them. The check system is incredibly archaic, the overdraft thing is just pure greed. The fact that I can transfer money across different banks instantly in my country and have to wait a few days for a wire transfer in the US is just mindblowing for the biggest economy in the world.
plandis 4y ago
> It's hilarious (in a way) seeing USians American is the term Americans prefer, let’s try to be respectful.
- deleted 4y ago
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STM32F030R8 4y ago
Apple Card is not Apple Pay. You seem to be the only one confused about that not ‘USians’. It's hilarious (in a way) seeing EUians comment on Americans.
deleted 4y ago
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by rswail 4y ago

27fingies 4y ago

eh, apple pay's been available for 9 years now. ROW had more POS's that were ready to go day 1 because of the existing contactless support but if you had a supported US bank you could use it.

rswail 4y ago
Rest-of-the-world had Visa/MC forcing merchants to upgrade on a faster schedule than the US, because the US card environment has many more middle-man processors in the mix that would lose their slice of the transactions. Also large retailers that "self-acquired" didn't want to invest in upgraded readers, or lose access to the card details. Breaches like Target's where a bunch of actual CPANs and customer details were stolen started to force the US to upgrade. Enforcing PCI compliance of separation and encryption of CHI has also forced US companies and banks to upgrade.
- deleted 4y ago
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- pas 4y ago
  anyone else wondering CHI is cardholder information
  - AmericanChopper 4y ago
    The correct acronym is CHD (Cardholder Data). Using specialised acronyms in normal conversation is annoying enough when you use the right ones…
    - rswail 4y ago
      I always get PII and CHD mixed up :) Sorry, to clarify: PII: Personally Identifiable Information (relates to GDPR etc) CHD: Card Holder Data (relates to EMV etc) CHD is a form of PII, but PII has greater scope.
      - sbuk 4y ago
        Just to throw confusion into the mix, PCI (payment card industry) governs credit/debit card standards, including security in the US.

woodruffw 4y ago

The second one you’re referring to is called “Apple Card” in the US; I’ve never heard anyone (or Apple) refer to it as “Apple Pay,” except in the sense when using Apple Pay with an Apple Card.

rswail 4y ago
Yup, sorry, my mistake, it's a bit like "Apple TV" the device, "Apple TV" the app, and "Apple TV+" the streaming service. Apple Card was/is Apple's way to promote contactless EMV in the US, which in turn promotes use of Apple Pay on the phone/watch. Apple Card is a US only thing though AFAIK.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Apple Card was/is Apple's way to promote contactless EMV in the US Apple Card, with fewer than 7mm users, was launched half a decade after Apple Pay [1][2]. Apple sells over 200mm iPhones a year here. Apple Card was not a way to promote contactless payment, it's a margin play. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Pay [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Card
  - JimmyAustin 4y ago
    The physical Apple Card itself doesn’t even support contactless payment, it needs to physically be swiped or inserted.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > physical Apple Card itself doesn’t even support contactless payment, it needs to physically be swiped or inserted Its sole purpose is to be swiped. It's well made, but I don't think they want people using it.
      - ioblomov 4y ago

ecspike 4y ago

Chip + Signature depends on the venue which makes it really annoying. Went to a new city, one place out of the four I visited required a signature, the rest were fine with tap to pay/chip+Pin. Some places are fine until some arbitrary limit, etc. The place that made me sign? The purchases were $5-$6.

rswail 4y ago
Chip + Signature is a dumb USian thing because merchants didn't want to change their readers to have a secure PIN pad. Contactless has different floor limits than Contact (chip). For example, in AU, the limit for contactless without PIN is ~AUD100. In the UK, I believe its GBP30. If you tap for a payment over that limit, the reader will ask for the PIN. The primary difference is that if a customer uses contactless/contact and PIN, then the risk of the transaction is passed to the network/issuer, instead of the merchant.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Chip + Signature is a dumb USian thing because merchants didn't want to change their readers to have a secure PIN pad Americans don't want to punch in a PIN. We have more cards per capita and are habituated to the convenience of a swipe. (Unlike much to the world, our fraud risk sits almost entirely on the merchant side.) Contactless had no hope with a PIN. Merchants catered to that despite higher cost and risk.
  - messe 4y ago
    > Contactless had no hope with a PIN I’m not sure if it’s true for all EU countries and banks, but in general you don’t put in your PIN every time with contactless. The card usually works for a number of transactions without a PIN, often up to a certain limit, after which it asks you to insert it again.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > in general you don’t put in your PIN every time with contactless As an American, I never get prompted in Europe for a PIN. Even for large transactions. That matches a swipe's convenience.

lyime 4y ago

Apply pay (with faceID) is a much better experience than chip+pin.

rswail 4y ago
The point is that as far as the merchant's reader is concerned, there's no difference. It uses NFC to read a card. If it's required to get a PIN because of floor limits etc, it will still ask for a PIN. Chip+PIN is the basis of contactless+PIN, same EMV standard, same stuff happens under the covers. Different business rules for merchant risk, chargeback etc
- Hamuko 4y ago
  >If it's required to get a PIN because of floor limits etc, it will still ask for a PIN. That doesn't happen with Apple Pay though, since it's an authenticated NFC payment. My (physical) Visa card has a 50€ contactless limit but with Apple Pay, I can just use it to the card's limits. I've paid for a 880€ MacBook with just tapping my Apple Watch against a reader.
  - rswail 4y ago
    That has nothing to do with Apple Pay and everything to do with the merchant's reader, their transaction acquirer, and their merchant bank. As far as the reader is concerned, for contactless, there is no, as in none as in nada difference between a contactless payment with a physical Visa card, or a contactless payment using Apple Pay (or Google or Samsung Pay). They are all "authenticated NFC payments".
  - shawabawa3 4y ago
    The limits are up to the provider, phone payments are more secure because they require you to unlock so generally the providers have higher or no limits It doesn't change the fact that the reader doesn't know if it's a phone or not, it's just a contactless payment standard
    - 4y ago

raverbashing 4y ago

Exactly And for most transactions it's just 'tap your card' (no pin), no need to have it in the phone.

rswail 4y ago
The difference is that when you tap your card, it uses your CPAN directly. Plus you have to carry around your cards. When I'm not travelling for work, I only have my phone. No need for wallet, has drivers license, Medicare (AU), and my credit/debit cards in the Apple wallet. I haven't used physical cash in AU except very rarely for about a year now.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  You're right Though I'd never travel without my wallet, I like having a backup plan if something happens to my phone
  - rswail 4y ago
    I never used to go anywhere without my wallet, but during COVID, and now beyond, I rarely use my wallet when I'm at home. I still need to carry it when I'm driving, because our drivers licenses haven't been able to download to the Wallet yet, but once that happens, I won't need my physical wallet.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Even if I didn't need to have my driver's license with me when I left the house, I think it would take a lot to convince me not to generally carry my small (business card holder) front pocket wallet with me. Being dependent of having a charged and working phone for almost literally everything is something I wouldn't be generally comfortable with even with a smart watch which would be a backup for most payments.

TheRealNGenius 4y ago

I don’t know where the hell you’re from, but the word you’re looking for is american

tallanvor 4y ago
You could phrase it much more politely, but yes, it is very unusual to see anyone write "USian". Some people are trying to normalize "American" to mean anyone from North or South America, but the reality is, of course, that 99.9% of the time, American means people from the US.
- rswail 4y ago
  I use the term USian as a part joke but to explicitly talk about the US, as opposed to other "american" nations like CA or MX. Here we're talking about the difference between the card networks and merchant acquiring in the US vs elsewhere in the world.
  - xeonmc 4y ago
    [dead]
  - plandis 4y ago
    It’s the United States of Mexico, which everyone shortens to Mexico but for some reason you’re not okay shortening the United States of America to Americans? Honestly United Statesian is more confusing because that ambiguously could refer to Mexicans. It really sounds like you’re trying to troll and yeah people generally don’t like it if you intentionally get their nationality wrong.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > It’s the United States of Mexico No, the official name (in English) is the United Mexican States. (In Spanish, its structurally the same as the Spanish name of the USA (Estados Unidos Méxicanos vs. Estados Unidos Americanos, but the English names do not follow the same structure.) > which everyone shortens to Mexico but for some reason you’re not okay shortening the United States of America to Americans? People in American States [0] that are not the United States of America have very good reasons to prefer to distinguish the adjective for “belonging to the Americas” for the one for “belonging to the United States of America”. > Honestly United Statesian is more confusing because that ambiguously could refer to Mexicans. Yeah, that would be a problem if we also needed to distinguish the adjective referring to association with México-the-country from some supranational uses of México but were already using Estadounidense to make that distinction for different uses of “America”, but…that problem doesn’t exist for México, to start with. [0] see, e.g., the terminology used by the OAS https://www.oas.org/en/about/principles.asp https://www.oas.org/en/about/principles.asp

kanbara 4y ago

i don’t understand what the point of talking about us adoption of nfc payment vs chip+pin is. i’ve lived in several countries and used apple wallet in all of them + the us since 2012. and my german bank only got a card available in wallet in 2021… chip and sign is dumb, but nfc and apple wallet work just as well in the states as they do anywhere else.

seniorivn 4y ago
The older the banking system is, the less modern it is. Germany was a technological leader before the 1st world war, and still is in some ways, and could be considered a financial center for at least part of the world for the same period(like the eu) So it's financial system is horrible, the same for all "modern" countries. If you want to see modern finance, look at countries that are wealthy enough to afford it but only became this way in the last few decades(like since the 90s) A politically heated examples: if you go to the farthest village of Russia, where only poor people live(for example 12h drive from Irkutsk), you will be able to pay with contactless payments in their local store(before the war, you would be able to pay with Visa/Mastercard/Apple/Google/etc). And in China you will be able to pay with qr codes based payments even to a homeless entrepreneur on the street, that tries to sell you selfmade slippers, or something like that.
- derriz 4y ago
  I don’t recognize the pattern you describe. For various reasons I’ve done a lot of travel over the last month or so - 2 “old money” European countries, a “new money” European country, a Middle Eastern country and Australia and I didn’t use cash or have to sign anything once in 5 or 6 weeks - I paid for everything with a contactless card. Unless something has dramatically changed in the last 2 years, my experience in the USA during my last trip there was that of a payments system that seemed stuck in the 1970s. In my experience, the global division would be between the USA and the rest of the world.
  - plandis 4y ago
    Can you describe stuck in the 70s? I just use contactless pay pretty much exclusively unless a place is cash only (which isn’t the norm). What are you doing in your country?

scarface74 4y ago

> It's hilarious (in a way) seeing USians comment on this post. The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. The iPhone 6S with Apple Pay came out in 2015. > The lack of being able to get the "real" CPAN is why some US merchants still refuse Apple/Google/Samsung Pay, specifically because they lose the ability to track customers. I don’t think I’ve been to many merchants that don’t take Apple Pay. One of the annoying ones is AMC movie theaters.

sunbum 4y ago
>The iPhone 6S with Apple Pay came out in 2015. Contactless payment doesnt require a phone, the first contactless payment cards have existed since 2007 [1] [1] - https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/17411/barclaycard-rolls-out-oyster-payments-card https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/17411/barclaycard-rolls...
- kailanb 4y ago
  They launched this with one of the most memorable TV adverts of all time, in my opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYEcZh2QtwA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYEcZh2QtwA
rswail 4y ago
The difference is that in most of the world, merchants are required to provide at least contact ("Chip+PIN") readers and as of a few years ago, fully support contactless reading. It's only the US as a major environment that has delayed (and delayed) applying the same rules, or that adopted Chip+Signature in the first place.
ghaff 4y ago
AFAIK Walmart, for example, doesn't take Apple Pay. One of the reasons I don't really use Apple Pay is that I know (unless there are large cash only signs) that a credit card will work and, for me, it's at least as easy.

evancox100 4y ago

> The merchant only gets the "6+4" digits of the card, the DPAN is sent over the network to the tokenization service, which translates the DPAN to the CPAN and sends the transaction to the issuing bank for authentication and payment. > The lack of being able to get the "real" CPAN is why some US merchants still refuse Apple/Google/Samsung Pay, specifically because they lose the ability to track customers. Looking at you, HEB

hstan4 4y ago
Multiple times I’ve forgotten my wallet at H‑E‑B and was hoping Apple Pay was accepted

zamnos 4y ago

It's not material to your post but the DPAN isn't detokenized, but is sent to the networks (Visa/MC) to be charged. Privacy.com serves the purposes of a per-merchant PAN (read: credit card number) online without having to use apple pay.

rswail 4y ago
The DPAN is eventually detokenized prior to submission to the issuer for authentication and payment. So from Apple Pay wallet -> reader -> acquirer -> network -> issuer, the DPAN is used. When it reaches the issuer, the issuer detokenizes DPAN -> CPAN to process the request. When it responds, it retokenizes etc for the response.

gregsadetsky 4y ago

A question regarding this - I’ve discovered that using “Express Mode” [0] does allow the transit organization to connect your real credit card to what I assumed was the tokenized DPAN. How is that possible? Specifically: there’s a transit org (I’ve tried to reach them about this issue, to no avail) that lets you enter your (real, CPAN) credit card number on their public web site and get back your “own” (if it happens to be your card…) transit history i.e. the times when you tapped your iPhone/Android on their NFC/tap enabled turnstiles. So, they /do/ seem to have a way to either get the CPAN when the card is tapped, or maybe they can tokenize the CPAN in the same way as the phone and then compare the tokens…? I thought that could not be possible but it 100% works. To me it’s a huge security problem. But again, I have not heard back from them at all. Do you understand how they do it? Thanks [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212171 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212171

aardvark179 4y ago
I’m not sure how they do it but I think it requires a special agreement with the token issuers.
zamnos 4y ago
If you name the transit authority doing this, it'd be possible to look at what the iPhone/Android phone is actually doing. One possibility is the information being shared when using the NFC isn't your CPAN or DPAN at all, but is a 3rd identifier with which they deanonymize you.
- rswail 4y ago
  If you use an EMV card in transit, then the Visa/MC rules say that the same card must be used to pay for the fare. Transit providers are not allowed to use the EMV card purely as "identification". I answered elsewhere on the thread about how the transit provider is able to use the EMV as an identifier after it has been used for payment, with a one way hash sent to the transit provider.
- _rs 4y ago
  I believe OMNY is one system which operates as OP is describing

shawabawa3 4y ago

> When the phone is tapped, as far as the reader is concerned, it is a standard EMV card When I went to the US nobody seemed to understand this. Loads of shops would have a sticker saying "Apple Pay Accepted" or something, and when I took out my Pixel phone they would say, oh that isn't an iPhone that won't work. Of course, it worked every time because the card reader has no idea what brand of phone it is or if it's even a phone at all..

ghaff 4y ago
Yeah although I was just in Europe and it seems like pretty much everyone just taps a card [ADDED: This is probably an overstatement but lots seem to use a card.] rather than using their phone from what I saw. For most circumstances, even with an Apple Watch, it seems way easier in most circumstances to just tap a card than fumbling with electronics. Even compared to a few years ago, contactless payments seemed way more prevalent and frictionless. In Amsterdam, on the advice of a local, I did buy a chip card for transit as systems are still in the process of switching but my understanding is various transit systems there and elsewhere increasingly let you just tap a contactless credit card.
- jeroenhd 4y ago
  I see a mix of card tapping and phone tapping here. I myself only use my card when my phone is out of battery or when the amount to pay is larger than the bank allows by default (though I'm pretty sure you can raise that). It was pretty weird seeing Apple users around me get excited about finally being able to pay with their phones when the first bank here started offering Apple Pay. I guess they never noticed that every other brand of smartphone had been doing that for give years at that point? As for the public transit system, the stupid mess of checking in and out at varioustterminals still exists, but they are indeed working on using bank cards for public transit. They're of limited use though (no ability to store discounts and such) and not all transit companies accept them yet. I'm not sure what the situation is with credit cards, as the Netherlands is very much debit card oriented. The cards follow the same standards, but as any American trying to do groceries here will find out, that doesn't mean all cards will work on all terminals.

3D30497420 4y ago

The use of signatures in the US boggles my mind. Who checks this ever? I worked retail for years in the US and I would usually check the signature and (very rarely) challenge a signature. The customer was almost never happy I did this, so I generally wouldn't bother unless there were other reasons to be concerned. (For example, kids clearly using their parents card or someone who wrote "see ID" on the card.) One additional thought: I now live in Europe, and use my contactless card for payments. However, sometimes it fails and I am required to use my chip and PIN. (I'm guessing because the bank thought the transaction needed additional security for some reason.) In this case, if I only had my phone, I would be stuck?

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arminluschin 4y ago
With Apple Pay it never asks for PIN (been using for years). I'm no expert, but I think authenticating with FaceID/TouchID means it always provides the equivalent of a PIN.
- pasc1878 4y ago
  I think it can ask for a PIN but it is the PIN of the phone when FaceID does not work so is not the card PIN.
trollied 4y ago
Chip & PIN cards (at least in the UK) have limits before you're forced to verify again via C&P. It's usually a £ amount or # of transactions. Apple Pay does not force the above, as you have already identified yourself via mandatory biometrics or device PIN.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  The re-verification isn't a hard spending limit or count. There's some fuzzy logic (or like the kids today would say "AI") behind it. Basically it references the purchase to your history and if there's something funky it forces you to re-auth. Mostly happens to me on vacations and road trips when I pay in multiple locations 100s of km away from each other. But I've never had to do it at my local grocery store(s), even though I might visit them multiple times a week.

orwin 4y ago

Interesting, i've never looked too much into the credit card universe. What i know is that almost 50 (times flies, i originaly wrote 40...) years ago, my uncle worked a bit with secure terminals at a French company (forgot the name, but i know he lived in Spain for a while), then was yanked by a company that worked with American Express, took the Paris-NY Concord at least a hundred time to try to implement the same stuff he did in Europe in the US (chip + PIN), was distraught because the issue weren't technical and somehow transformed from engineer to executive, and ended up being an auditor for money laundering and fraud detection in major banks (received death threats and had bodyguards for a while). Don't know if it is related, but the first time i went in the US i remembered some stories he told me about this American Express job and said to myself "Yeah, that checks out".

rvnx 4y ago
The company sounds like Gemplus / Gemalto :) Yes, there is no reason to believe that the chip+pin is a technical issue, it's mostly business / political with lot of (financial) interests under. Often policies like that are decided because of lobbying: some people found large niches on how to make money, and they try to convince others to not change their habits even if the new system would benefit the masses (like the situation with the imperial system).

kranke155 4y ago

Wait so contactless are not normal in the US??

markus92 4y ago
It's not uncommon but a few major retailers like Walmart, Kroger, Home Depot and Lowe's for example don't accept it. It's also not too common in hospitality (they take your card to the cash register, instead of bringing the payment terminal to you).
lotsofpulp 4y ago
It is, except at Walmart/Home Depot/Lowes/hotels/wait service restaurants and a few other brands in my experience.
- yurishimo 4y ago
  The Home Depot I frequently used in Dallas supported contactless payments. Might be your area. Walmart however did not.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Interesting. Did it also accept Apple Pay? Between west coast and northeast coast, I have never seen a Home Depot accept any kind of contactless payment, even with newly installed self checkout systems.
    - yurishimo 4y ago
      I think so? That's the only thing I use. It's possible that I'm not remembering correctly. FWIW I was also using the self checkout thingy. A cursory google search suggests that most HD stores do not accept it. There are some reddit threads about individual stores gaining support. Perhaps I lived in a test market? Hopefully they rollout support soon!
- plandis 4y ago
  I literally just paid with NFC at Home Depot like 3 hours ago.

dwighttk 4y ago

>As an explanation, there are two different things called "Apple Pay" in the US… No Apple Card is not called Apple Pay

weberer 4y ago

>It's hilarious (in a way) seeing USians comment on this post. The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. Huh? I remember making contactless payments from my Samsung phone in the USA back in 2013 just fine. It had an unfortunate name at the beginning, but otherwise worked great. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softcard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softcard

giobox 4y ago
As nice as your Samsung might have been, it's pretty absurd IMO to claim contactless was as prevalent in the USA in 2013 as it was in European countries like say France or the UK. Huge nationwide retailers such as Walmart and Kroger held out adopting practically forever, and there are loads of other examples who haven't adopted or only did so very recently - The Home Depot, Lowes, Starbucks... > https://www.macrumors.com/2023/04/15/kroger-fred-meyer-apple-pay/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/04/15/kroger-fred-meyer-apple...
- glenngillen 4y ago
  I was living in London circa 2010/2011 when some friends from the US came to visit. I recall having to use my card to hire bikes for them (the Barclays/"Boris" bikes) because it required a tap from a chip+pin card to release them from the locks. My US friends had no such cards. Yet they were clearly ubiquitous enough in the UK at the time to make it a hard requirement for getting a bike.

personjerry 4y ago

> The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. Perhaps it's better to specify which parts of the world, I'm assuming you mean US and Canada versus Europe and China. Meanwhile, most developing nations (which make up a majority of the countries in the world) still operate primarily on cash.

drowsspa 4y ago
In Brazil even beggars accept money through their phones and everywhere there's contactless payment.
philistine 4y ago
Canada is at the forefront of contactless payments. Most Canadians had a contactless physical credit card before Apple Pay came to Canada. Because of that, most people in Canada don't bother to set up their phone; they just swipe their physical card, no pin or signature needed for lower amounts.

tiernano 4y ago

> The reader will go through its standard business rules for floor limits, PINs etc and process the transaction. Just on the limits part; here in Ireland (and probably a good chunk of Europe) the limit on a physical card is around EUR50. But on Apple Pay (and probably other phone-based card payments that I have tried) that limit is removed... I have bought TVs (EUR500+) and put a deposit on a car (EUR1000) with Apple Pay and no issues. Some terminals do have issues (older ones that the store just couldn't be arsed updating have a max 50 limit, even on Apple Pay) but most do not have this issue. Long story boring; there must be something somewhere that tells it the limit is increased. Also, the reason is the security Apple Pay and others give. You will have a very hard time explaining how someone got passed your face id for a payment...

xiande04 4y ago

> The rest of the world has had contactless payment for at least a decade. I think you have a very narrow view of "the rest of the world"! Try "Europe and East Asia" for a little more accuracy ;)

_kbh_ 4y ago
you can easily add a lot of Oceania to that too.

mcshicks 4y ago

My understanding was the reason the US didn't end up transitioning to chip and pin was they couldn't transfer the liability in the case of compromised pin. That is the consumer liability would still be limited to $50. So there was no incentive for the card network to roll it out in the US. You still get the benefits of the fact the card cannot be copied which is significant.

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matt-attack 4y ago

I would had the user experience of having to enter a PIN on each transition. Fraud prevention is not my problem and I wouldn’t want to be inconvenienced in a veiled attempt to reduce fraud. Apple Pay is quite the nice experience especial with the Apple Watch. It even getting out your phone is heavenly. Only thing I wish now is having to double-tap the button on my watch to initiate the process. Would to just hold it up.

r00fus 4y ago

> As an explanation, there are two different things called "Apple Pay" in the US. One is the use of the secure element/wallet in an iPhone/watch to store an EMV card that is tokenized. The other is the Apple branded credit card issued by Goldman Sachs. You're incorrect about the 2nd. The 2nd "thing" is called Apple Card - most people know the difference. I haven't been refused Apple Pay (ie, EMV) almost anywhere in the US unless that place simply only accepts cash.

anvuong 4y ago

I agree on the current state of US cashless system. I moved here last year from a SEA country, I was surprised the amount of fees for a cash withdrawl, it's charged both ways which is ridiculous. In my country, if banks joins the national system (which are most of them), then there is no fees for transactions between them. The check system is incredibly archaic, the overdraft thing is just pure greed. The fact that I can transfer money across different banks instantly in my country and have to wait a few days for a wire transfer in the US is just mindblowing for the biggest economy in the world.

plandis 4y ago

> It's hilarious (in a way) seeing USians American is the term Americans prefer, let’s try to be respectful.

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STM32F030R8 4y ago

Apple Card is not Apple Pay. You seem to be the only one confused about that not ‘USians’. It's hilarious (in a way) seeing EUians comment on Americans.

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