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The dark side of the Mac App Store

353 points by lapcat 4y ago

josephcsible 4y ago
I thought this was exactly what Apple said only getting apps from their App Store protected us from.
- gigatexal 4y ago
  it's what their marketing says but they don't seem to care -- they get 30% of a scam and 30% of a legit txn... it is a horrible look for sure
- galad87 4y ago
  A bit, all the App Store apps (with a few exception by Apple, of course) are sandboxed. That's an additional level of security that normal apps don't require. The macOS sandbox is not perfect, but in most cases is better than nothing.
  - knallfrosch 4y ago
    Why doesn't Apple allow any app (from outside the Apple store) to run in a sandbox then?
    - galad87 4y ago
      They do allow, but it’s not required. So many developers take the easy way and don’t sandbox their app even when it’s easy. The macOS sandbox clearly needs some improvements, but developers have their part of faults too.
  - fastball 4y ago
    Apple is very capable of sandboxing apps that weren't downloaded from a centralized store.
    - galad87 4y ago
      That’s not how the macOS app sandbox works, it’s up to the developer to implement it. Apple introduced a few protection for normal apps recently, for example reading files from Documents, Desktop, external drives, and a few more places shows a modal dialog the first time, but it’s a long way from the capabilities of the app sandbox.
      - fastball 4y ago
        Gatekeeper already prevent users from easily running apps that haven't been signed by Apple, you can just extend that to sandboxing.
        galad87 4y ago
        How? Sandboxing isn't about preventing running app unsigned by Apple. A sandboxed app can be signed with ad-hoc certificate. Sandboxing means to explicitly limit the reach of an app. This is easy in some case: limit access to the network, the microphone, etc. However is not so simple when you have to manage files and security scoped bookmarks: every app will require some changes, sometimes small, sometimes large, to store the security scoped bookmarks it needs. This is not something you can automate with good results.
        iggldiggl 4y ago
        > sometimes small, sometimes large And sometimes not reasonably possible at all, because e.g. like all sandboxing approaches I'm aware of, Apple's file sandboxing, too, sucks at handling multi-file file formats. (Though to give them credit, they're the only ones who at least have made an attempt at handling those [1], even if that still only covers a rather limited part of that use case.) [1] At least according to the documentation I've found, their sandboxing should be able to handle "related" files that only differ in their file extensions, but a number of existing file formats are easily more complex than that. I think that's still more than what's possible on Android, Windows or Linux, though…
alin23 4y ago
And yet unique apps with curated content get rejected three times in a row for being "too simple": https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Dealing%20with%20App%20Store%20rejections https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Dealing%20with%20App%20Store%... The App Store review process is in need of a change. It probable made sense when iOS and macOS were in their infancy and apps were few and easy to review.
- lapcat 4y ago
  > It probable made sense when iOS and macOS were in their infancy and apps were few and easy to review. Mac didn't get an App Store until it was 27 years old. ;-)
  - alin23 4y ago
    Right, my mistake. I think I wanted to say "when the Mac App Store was in its infancy" but lost the meaning mid sentence. Even iOS was launched without an App Store in the first year.
    - tough 4y ago
      Steve initial plans seemed to revolve about everyone getting web apps with powerful html and what not. I guess they backtracked when they saw they could get a 30% take by keeping you on their walled garden GG, steve
      - lagrange77 4y ago
        > Steve initial plans seemed to revolve about everyone getting web apps Got a source on this?
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        kgwgk 4y ago
        "The full Safari engine is inside of iPhone. And so, you can write amazing Web 2.0 and Ajax apps that look exactly and behave exactly like apps on the iPhone. And these apps can integrate perfectly with iPhone services. They can make a call, they can send an email, they can look up a location on Google Maps. "And guess what? There's no SDK that you need! You've got everything you need if you know how to write apps using the most modern web standards to write amazing apps for the iPhone today. So developers, we think we've got a very sweet story for you. You can begin building your iPhone apps today." https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-no-third-party-native-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-...
crazygringo 4y ago
I seriously don't understand how Apple's processes are allowing this to happen. How is it that simultaneously, so many apps fail review for tiny details, showing that apps really are having manual review done on them... ...and yet all this spam is getting through? Forget opinions about Apple or the App Store generally. I'm far more interested in what the actual process failure is here. Because this is really bad and it's precisely what the whole concept of the App Store is meant to guard against. So what the heck is wrong with their processes? This is such an "own goal" I'm baffled. This is supposed to be a core competency of the App Store. There's no benefit to Apple allowing all these spam apps. So how the heck is a company as generally competent as Apple messing this up so bad?
- LeoPanthera 4y ago
  > ...and yet all this spam is getting through? It's difficult to believe anything other than bribery.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
    - LeoPanthera 4y ago
      But this would not be explained by stupidity.
      - colejohnson66 4y ago
        Law of large numbers seems to be one people ignore. If I’m making a scam app, I’ll just use multiple accounts and hope one gets through eventually. I won’t be discouraged by rejects because I’ll have an automated system that handles everything including retries. If I’m banned, I’ll just buy a new account and try again.
    - heavyset_go 4y ago
      Hanlon's razor is great when you apply it to your personal relationships, but it falls apart when you apply it to trillion dollar companies and their golden geese.
VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
I guess the question is are these apps actually doing the thing that say they do? ie, calling the OpenAI APIs for the user? If the user is getting what they want then I'm not sure it's a scam. If it is actually just a convenient wrapper around chatgpt
chongli 4y ago
One thing I’m wondering about the upcoming sideloading capability in iOS 17 (even if only in Europe): What will permissions look like? It seems like everyone is assuming Apple will be forced to let people sideload apps with completely unfettered access to all APIs, the way jailbroken apps work. That view, to me, seems unrealistic. I think it more likely to have the opposite: no access to most APIs so that only basic, self-contained apps can be installed. Does anyone know if the EU law requires them to open up all these APIs and completely abandon their code-signing and entitlement system? Or will it be somewhere in between where some APIs will be required to be open but others restricted? The whole thing is very complicated. I’m not sure I like the idea of government regulating what APIs are available. That seems like way too much interference.
- EMIRELADERO 4y ago
  >> 7. The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the gatekeeper. Furthermore, the gatekeeper shall allow business users and alternative providers of services provided together with, or in support of, core platform services, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features, regardless of whether those features are part of the operating system, as are available to, or used by, that gatekeeper when providing such services.
  - chongli 4y ago
    So if I’m reading this correctly, it sounds like Apple’s entire system of entitlements, app signing, and controlled access to APIs goes out the window along with it. This should also affect macOS which uses entitlements the same way.
    - EMIRELADERO 4y ago
vimy 4y ago
What is the scam exactly? The store full of simple apps that use the OpenAI api. Nothing wrong with that so how are they scams?
- 1023bytes 4y ago
  Disabling the close button on the paywall seems pretty scammy
- KomoD 4y ago
  Did you even read the article?
  - vimy 4y ago
    I did. Spamming apps on the app store is not the same as a scam. If the apps work as advertised I don't see the issue.
    - Stephen_0xFF 4y ago
      There’s a paywall you can’t exit. Review exploit. Ripping off the logo. By the definition of a scam those things are dishonest in the attempt to make a quick buck. You can do mental gymnastics to try to justify this, but at the end of the day you know this is pretty scammy - especially since you can use chatgpt for free.
ilamont 4y ago
A simple search for keywords like “OpenAI” and “ChatGPT” on the MacOS App Store reveals the alarming truth about the prevalence of scam apps and shady developers. Any platform that offers an opportunity to make "passive income" is filled with such garbage, optimized with manipulated reviews, keyword stuffing, and other tricks. I've seen it on Shopify (stores and Shopify apps), Amazon (sellers and publishing tools), and Etsy, to name a few. Search YouTube for "ChatGPT side hustles" and you'll get thousands of hits. The platforms don't care. Anything that adds friction or costs such as policies with teeth and staff dedicated to rooting out the scams hurts their bottom lines. And here we are today.
- TobyTheDog123 4y ago
  This is a good callout - I'm planning writing an article on the newest member of this group: ProductHunt. Once a promising place to find curated, quality apps that developers put care into, is now a hellscape of endless repetitive entries of the hype du jour, mixed in with sleazy Google-style adverts and awful social-media-esque interaction reminders (streaks, leave reviews on apps you haven't even clicked on, etc) I'd like to think it's possible for this to stop, but I honestly don't anymore.
  - moneywoes 4y ago
    Most votes are fake
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Apple breeds complacency by selling the false promise of a walled garden.
basiskarten 4y ago
Apple really doesn't care. A much older example than ChatGPT copycats are apps that blatantly rip off the Spaced Repetition Software Anki. The official version of Anki for iOS is called AnkiMobile. [1] But if you search for "Anki" on the App Store you are plastered with Apps called "Anki Pro", "Anki App" etc. It's really quite infuriating, especially for smaller developers who unlike OpenAI don't have the resources to fight against this. [2] -- [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ankimobile-flashcards/id373493387 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ankimobile-flashcards/id373493... [2] https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ankipro-another-ripoff-anki-app/11791 https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ankipro-another-ripoff-anki-app...
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  For a company that prides itself on "good taste", one would think they'd have enough sense not to let their users fall for these low effort rip offs.
EGreg 4y ago
I remember when my company’s apps in the app store were controversial… even though we were completely upfront, and ended up pulling the controversial features. I can only imagine how much it has degraded since then: https://www.google.com/search?q=qbix+calendar+mining&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari https://www.google.com/search?q=qbix+calendar+mining&ie=UTF-...
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
> I also found that some developers are abusing Apple’s Developer Agreements by spamming multiple accounts and flooding the store with nearly identical applications. This creates a “cartel” style environment and unfair competition for other developers. This isn't supposed to happen, but it does. I have had Apple ask me to remove apps (one of about ten), because of "marked similarity" with other apps in my store (I had a single codebase that was recompiled for various locations, and also rebranded, but the app was basically the same). I saw one developer that had over 400 nearly identical apps. They were some kind of "local guide" app, and the only difference was the text content. Otherwise, even the branding was exactly the same, and each app was its own app; not a single app, with multiple faces. Apple does not let you change your screenshots and app previews, after your app has been published. That's because some game developers wrote crapplets, then replaced the crud screenshots, with ones from commercial apps. Grifters can be damn clever, and learn to push the limits of any system. And one of the reasons that the Apple App Store is such a rich target, is because it makes serious money. All other marketplaces pale in comparison. There's a lot of people that want to "bring down" the App Store, so it's just as cruddy as the competitors. Not sure that would work out the way people think.
- MyFirstSass 4y ago
  I wonder if most of the "Serious money" is made from subs, in app purchases, app purchases or ads. Do lots of people with iPhones buy random apps and sub/pay in them? I've always wondered if this was an interesting market to get into but the horror stories over the years have kept me from touching it - is it feasible for a relatively competent dev to break into this market without dark methods?
  - mikepurvis 4y ago
    I think the real question for a lot who might consider it is whether it’s possible for a competent and honest dev to break in and make money. Someone who wants to provide meaningful value and experiences to smart users, as opposed to just landing whales.
    - 4y ago
fguerraz 4y ago
Is there a bright side to the Mac App store?
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Depends. Are you an Apple shareholder?
pcdoodle 4y ago
Apple: Give us 30% because we add that much value via our platform. Meanwhile...
JayStavis 4y ago
I'm optimistic that AI solutions can really do great work to improve false negative/positive rates in highly manual systems like this. With that said, it's a slippery slope, and will quickly lead to different types of inconsistencies in policy, enforcement, and all the other problems that come with taking humans out of the loop.
einpoklum 4y ago
> The Dark Side of the Mac App Store: How Scam Apps and Shady Developers Are Preying on Users As opposed to the "Light Side" of the Mac App store, where the app store itself is preying on app publishers and users, and shady companies behind popular apps are preying on users.
simonw 4y ago
I'm very surprised OpenAI haven't released an official ChatGPT mobile app yet. When you have 100m+ users a large number of them WILL go looking for an app, and will install the first thing they find with ChatGPT in the name.
- DuckFeathers 4y ago
  The only explanation is some sort of deal with Microsoft to not eat the Bing app's market share. Too bad, the Bing app sucks.
knallfrosch 4y ago
This can't be true. Apple users pay a 30% tax to keep the closed OS with only that store safe and sound.
- rchaud 4y ago
  They recently cut it to 15%, and to keep the lights on, cut their review staff by 100%.
rufius 4y ago
This is limited to the Mac App Store. I’ve seen the same on the iOS and iPadOS app stores. Either way, sketchy devs are capitalizing on the “gold rush” of generative AI.
jtbayly 4y ago
Seems like an OS problem that they can manage to break the quit option in the app menu. Am I crazy?
- lapcat 4y ago
  > Seems like an OS problem that they can manage to break the quit option in the app menu. Not really. The same phenomenon can prevent you from losing unsaved changes to a document. Many useful features can become misfeatures when employed by a malicious developer.
  - jtbayly 4y ago
    I guess so. I guess that’s partly why force quit exists. The OS does provide a way to do what I expect the OS to handle for me.
ricardobeat 4y ago
This has been the case for the past one or two years already. Every app category is completely filled with scams, crappy clones, and brainless mass-produced 'puzzle games' [1]. Just yesterday I was searching for a 3D modelling app, and roughly 80% of the results were this type of game, while the apps I wanted were far down the list (and came with a $14,99/month subscription). The store has become a complete shit show, and the curation that used to justify the walled garden is nowhere to be found. We get the worst of both worlds. [1] if you can even call them 'games'. They are usually a set of static illustrations, a cheap backstory loosely related to the topic, some drag-and-drop puzzles, and little glimpses of child abuse, violence and sex, being promoted for a 12+ age range.
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  It is a shit show. I have zero interest in shipping through the App Store any longer, zero interest in iOS development anymore. You're going up against free (with In-App Purchase!) and so much noise — I'm not sure how a good app will even be discovered any longer. Like you, I've given up trying to find apps that way.
  - mfragin 4y ago
    The internet is full! Go away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
- DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
  Tried Apple Arcade?
bodge5000 4y ago
I remember last year when I got my first Mac in over a decade being excited to see the app store. Every now and then I saw Mac exclusive apps being posted on here that looked incredible, just so well designed with a lot of focus. I also heard about the rigorous review process so assumed that it'd all be like that. When I got it and tried looking for a music player (I'm not a big fan of Apples own music player + it doesn't support FLAC) I was stunned by just how much junk there was on there. The bloody Google Play store looked better, and this was repeated for pretty much every common purpose app I looked for. Of course there were good ones (I never managed to find a good music player, or audiobook player, though), but thats a pretty low bar. Coming from Fedora and seeing the quality apps being put out on Flatpak and the like (Amberol and Cozy for example), as well as quite a few other things about MacOS in general, I felt like Gnome was more like (what I expected from) MacOS than MacOS itself. Over time, as I got used to the differences in the OS, a lot of that faded, but my feelings about the two app markets remains the same.
- kccqzy 4y ago
  > I saw Mac exclusive apps being posted on here A Mac app that has been posted on HN and appearing on its front page almost certainly passes a higher quality bar than an app found by searching the Mac App Store.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  A lot of developers who bought into the "OS X is just a pretty and stable UNIX" mantra from the mid/late 2000's Mac era have jumped off the Mac train. I wrote some popular macOS apps for powerusers, but the nonsense that Apple has pulled over the last 5+ years led to me pulling out, it just isn't worth the headache or literal monetary cost to maintain free software for the platform. There was a lot of software from that era that reminded me of the type of poweruser enthusiasts would write for Linux. It's one of the reasons I originally left Linux for OS X 15+ years ago. These days the pendulum has shifted, Apple is hostile towards powerusers and anyone that wants to modify or run their systems as they see fit. Today, Linux is the "pretty and stable UNIX" that OS X was in the Snow Leopard days. Linux app repositories are filled to the brim with quality software that doesn't show me ads, try to sell me subscriptions or are hindered by my computer's manufacturer for reasons.
souvlakee 4y ago
The article is not ChatGPT generated.
skenderbeg 4y ago
Game theory: when openai releases the „real“ gpt chat app then they will have a hard time ranking in the app store
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
joshspankit 4y ago
Apple would have a much easier time if they allowed devs (and themselves) to fully automate iOS devices so that real testing could be done on real devices in a fast and fully-automatic way.
wkat4242 4y ago
Oh well, nobody really uses the Mac App store anyway. This is the big difference with iOS where you're stuck with it (at least for now until they're forced to open it up).
khana 4y ago
[dead]
vinceguidry 4y ago
Can we please stop pretending that walled gardens produce better quality and security? Apple is only one company, and companies are heavily incentivized to put profits first, quality second. If those two are at odds, guess what the company will prioritize? The only thing that can improve things is more and better standards. Letting companies dictate only results in pretty crap.
can16358p 4y ago
As long as Apple outsources low-quality cheap labor for app reviews this will keep happening. I've been developing iOS apps for 12 years and I can't tell how many times the reviewers failed to follow very basic instructions in review notes, or that they've randomly rejected our apps in a bugfix update that has nothing to do with their rejection reason, almost in each case requiring appealing to review board. The board definitely has some more senior and understanding people with common sense, but why do we need to reach out to them so commonly in the first place? Knowing the quality of app reviewers, it's not a surprise for me to see so many spammy apps in the store.
tradertef 4y ago
Nothing new here. There are many apps which are derived from the same source with minor tweaks. This becomes more obvious if you do a market research on a subject and test/compare various apps. Initially, I thought people were selling/buying template apps but it is more likely that the same person/team is creating and uploading the same app under different skins and names.
wiseowise 4y ago
Where are all AppStore proponents from iOS 17 sideloading thread?
diwakar2008 4y ago
Why don't telcos or large corporations create their own app stores? Similar to Samsung .. is the competition too difficult? Or the review process?
nyarlathotep_ 4y ago
Does anyone know what the author is using here to view call stack/assembly? Is this a feature that Instruments has?
- lapcat 4y ago
  Hopper: https://www.hopperapp.com/ https://www.hopperapp.com/
  - nyarlathotep_ 4y ago
    Thanks!
hot_gril 4y ago
There's a non-dark side? Mac App Store has been a consistent pain as a user just cause of the login and flaky download process. I dread every time I want to download something and it has to come from there. If something that simple is so annoying, I don't even want to know what app discovery or the developer's side is like. Found out a little late that Xcode can be downloaded as a standalone DMG from developer.apple.com/downloads instead of the MAS.
sarkartanmay393 4y ago
a gift from human for machines to communicate while hunting us

353 points by lapcat 4y ago

josephcsible 4y ago

I thought this was exactly what Apple said only getting apps from their App Store protected us from.

gigatexal 4y ago
it's what their marketing says but they don't seem to care -- they get 30% of a scam and 30% of a legit txn... it is a horrible look for sure
galad87 4y ago
A bit, all the App Store apps (with a few exception by Apple, of course) are sandboxed. That's an additional level of security that normal apps don't require. The macOS sandbox is not perfect, but in most cases is better than nothing.
- knallfrosch 4y ago
  Why doesn't Apple allow any app (from outside the Apple store) to run in a sandbox then?
  - galad87 4y ago
    They do allow, but it’s not required. So many developers take the easy way and don’t sandbox their app even when it’s easy. The macOS sandbox clearly needs some improvements, but developers have their part of faults too.
- fastball 4y ago
  Apple is very capable of sandboxing apps that weren't downloaded from a centralized store.
  - galad87 4y ago
    That’s not how the macOS app sandbox works, it’s up to the developer to implement it. Apple introduced a few protection for normal apps recently, for example reading files from Documents, Desktop, external drives, and a few more places shows a modal dialog the first time, but it’s a long way from the capabilities of the app sandbox.
    - fastball 4y ago
      Gatekeeper already prevent users from easily running apps that haven't been signed by Apple, you can just extend that to sandboxing.
      - galad87 4y ago
        How? Sandboxing isn't about preventing running app unsigned by Apple. A sandboxed app can be signed with ad-hoc certificate. Sandboxing means to explicitly limit the reach of an app. This is easy in some case: limit access to the network, the microphone, etc. However is not so simple when you have to manage files and security scoped bookmarks: every app will require some changes, sometimes small, sometimes large, to store the security scoped bookmarks it needs. This is not something you can automate with good results.
        iggldiggl 4y ago
        > sometimes small, sometimes large And sometimes not reasonably possible at all, because e.g. like all sandboxing approaches I'm aware of, Apple's file sandboxing, too, sucks at handling multi-file file formats. (Though to give them credit, they're the only ones who at least have made an attempt at handling those [1], even if that still only covers a rather limited part of that use case.) [1] At least according to the documentation I've found, their sandboxing should be able to handle "related" files that only differ in their file extensions, but a number of existing file formats are easily more complex than that. I think that's still more than what's possible on Android, Windows or Linux, though…

alin23 4y ago

And yet unique apps with curated content get rejected three times in a row for being "too simple": https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Dealing%20with%20App%20Store%20rejections https://notes.alinpanaitiu.com/Dealing%20with%20App%20Store%... The App Store review process is in need of a change. It probable made sense when iOS and macOS were in their infancy and apps were few and easy to review.

lapcat 4y ago
> It probable made sense when iOS and macOS were in their infancy and apps were few and easy to review. Mac didn't get an App Store until it was 27 years old. ;-)
- alin23 4y ago
  Right, my mistake. I think I wanted to say "when the Mac App Store was in its infancy" but lost the meaning mid sentence. Even iOS was launched without an App Store in the first year.
  - tough 4y ago
    Steve initial plans seemed to revolve about everyone getting web apps with powerful html and what not. I guess they backtracked when they saw they could get a 30% take by keeping you on their walled garden GG, steve
    - lagrange77 4y ago
      > Steve initial plans seemed to revolve about everyone getting web apps Got a source on this?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - kgwgk 4y ago
        "The full Safari engine is inside of iPhone. And so, you can write amazing Web 2.0 and Ajax apps that look exactly and behave exactly like apps on the iPhone. And these apps can integrate perfectly with iPhone services. They can make a call, they can send an email, they can look up a location on Google Maps. "And guess what? There's no SDK that you need! You've got everything you need if you know how to write apps using the most modern web standards to write amazing apps for the iPhone today. So developers, we think we've got a very sweet story for you. You can begin building your iPhone apps today." https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-iphone-no-third-party-native-apps/ https://9to5mac.com/2011/10/21/jobs-original-vision-for-the-...

crazygringo 4y ago

I seriously don't understand how Apple's processes are allowing this to happen. How is it that simultaneously, so many apps fail review for tiny details, showing that apps really are having manual review done on them... ...and yet all this spam is getting through? Forget opinions about Apple or the App Store generally. I'm far more interested in what the actual process failure is here. Because this is really bad and it's precisely what the whole concept of the App Store is meant to guard against. So what the heck is wrong with their processes? This is such an "own goal" I'm baffled. This is supposed to be a core competency of the App Store. There's no benefit to Apple allowing all these spam apps. So how the heck is a company as generally competent as Apple messing this up so bad?

LeoPanthera 4y ago
> ...and yet all this spam is getting through? It's difficult to believe anything other than bribery.
- mulmen 4y ago
  Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
  - LeoPanthera 4y ago
    But this would not be explained by stupidity.
    - colejohnson66 4y ago
      Law of large numbers seems to be one people ignore. If I’m making a scam app, I’ll just use multiple accounts and hope one gets through eventually. I won’t be discouraged by rejects because I’ll have an automated system that handles everything including retries. If I’m banned, I’ll just buy a new account and try again.
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    Hanlon's razor is great when you apply it to your personal relationships, but it falls apart when you apply it to trillion dollar companies and their golden geese.

VWWHFSfQ 4y ago

I guess the question is are these apps actually doing the thing that say they do? ie, calling the OpenAI APIs for the user? If the user is getting what they want then I'm not sure it's a scam. If it is actually just a convenient wrapper around chatgpt

chongli 4y ago

One thing I’m wondering about the upcoming sideloading capability in iOS 17 (even if only in Europe): What will permissions look like? It seems like everyone is assuming Apple will be forced to let people sideload apps with completely unfettered access to all APIs, the way jailbroken apps work. That view, to me, seems unrealistic. I think it more likely to have the opposite: no access to most APIs so that only basic, self-contained apps can be installed. Does anyone know if the EU law requires them to open up all these APIs and completely abandon their code-signing and entitlement system? Or will it be somewhere in between where some APIs will be required to be open but others restricted? The whole thing is very complicated. I’m not sure I like the idea of government regulating what APIs are available. That seems like way too much interference.

EMIRELADERO 4y ago
>> 7. The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the gatekeeper. Furthermore, the gatekeeper shall allow business users and alternative providers of services provided together with, or in support of, core platform services, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features, regardless of whether those features are part of the operating system, as are available to, or used by, that gatekeeper when providing such services.
- chongli 4y ago
  So if I’m reading this correctly, it sounds like Apple’s entire system of entitlements, app signing, and controlled access to APIs goes out the window along with it. This should also affect macOS which uses entitlements the same way.
  - EMIRELADERO 4y ago

vimy 4y ago

What is the scam exactly? The store full of simple apps that use the OpenAI api. Nothing wrong with that so how are they scams?

1023bytes 4y ago
Disabling the close button on the paywall seems pretty scammy
KomoD 4y ago
Did you even read the article?
- vimy 4y ago
  I did. Spamming apps on the app store is not the same as a scam. If the apps work as advertised I don't see the issue.
  - Stephen_0xFF 4y ago
    There’s a paywall you can’t exit. Review exploit. Ripping off the logo. By the definition of a scam those things are dishonest in the attempt to make a quick buck. You can do mental gymnastics to try to justify this, but at the end of the day you know this is pretty scammy - especially since you can use chatgpt for free.

ilamont 4y ago

A simple search for keywords like “OpenAI” and “ChatGPT” on the MacOS App Store reveals the alarming truth about the prevalence of scam apps and shady developers. Any platform that offers an opportunity to make "passive income" is filled with such garbage, optimized with manipulated reviews, keyword stuffing, and other tricks. I've seen it on Shopify (stores and Shopify apps), Amazon (sellers and publishing tools), and Etsy, to name a few. Search YouTube for "ChatGPT side hustles" and you'll get thousands of hits. The platforms don't care. Anything that adds friction or costs such as policies with teeth and staff dedicated to rooting out the scams hurts their bottom lines. And here we are today.

TobyTheDog123 4y ago
This is a good callout - I'm planning writing an article on the newest member of this group: ProductHunt. Once a promising place to find curated, quality apps that developers put care into, is now a hellscape of endless repetitive entries of the hype du jour, mixed in with sleazy Google-style adverts and awful social-media-esque interaction reminders (streaks, leave reviews on apps you haven't even clicked on, etc) I'd like to think it's possible for this to stop, but I honestly don't anymore.
- moneywoes 4y ago
  Most votes are fake

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Apple breeds complacency by selling the false promise of a walled garden.

basiskarten 4y ago

Apple really doesn't care. A much older example than ChatGPT copycats are apps that blatantly rip off the Spaced Repetition Software Anki. The official version of Anki for iOS is called AnkiMobile. [1] But if you search for "Anki" on the App Store you are plastered with Apps called "Anki Pro", "Anki App" etc. It's really quite infuriating, especially for smaller developers who unlike OpenAI don't have the resources to fight against this. [2] -- [1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ankimobile-flashcards/id373493387 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ankimobile-flashcards/id373493... [2] https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ankipro-another-ripoff-anki-app/11791 https://forums.ankiweb.net/t/ankipro-another-ripoff-anki-app...

matheusmoreira 4y ago
For a company that prides itself on "good taste", one would think they'd have enough sense not to let their users fall for these low effort rip offs.

EGreg 4y ago

I remember when my company’s apps in the app store were controversial… even though we were completely upfront, and ended up pulling the controversial features. I can only imagine how much it has degraded since then: https://www.google.com/search?q=qbix+calendar+mining&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari https://www.google.com/search?q=qbix+calendar+mining&ie=UTF-...

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

> I also found that some developers are abusing Apple’s Developer Agreements by spamming multiple accounts and flooding the store with nearly identical applications. This creates a “cartel” style environment and unfair competition for other developers. This isn't supposed to happen, but it does. I have had Apple ask me to remove apps (one of about ten), because of "marked similarity" with other apps in my store (I had a single codebase that was recompiled for various locations, and also rebranded, but the app was basically the same). I saw one developer that had over 400 nearly identical apps. They were some kind of "local guide" app, and the only difference was the text content. Otherwise, even the branding was exactly the same, and each app was its own app; not a single app, with multiple faces. Apple does not let you change your screenshots and app previews, after your app has been published. That's because some game developers wrote crapplets, then replaced the crud screenshots, with ones from commercial apps. Grifters can be damn clever, and learn to push the limits of any system. And one of the reasons that the Apple App Store is such a rich target, is because it makes serious money. All other marketplaces pale in comparison. There's a lot of people that want to "bring down" the App Store, so it's just as cruddy as the competitors. Not sure that would work out the way people think.

MyFirstSass 4y ago
I wonder if most of the "Serious money" is made from subs, in app purchases, app purchases or ads. Do lots of people with iPhones buy random apps and sub/pay in them? I've always wondered if this was an interesting market to get into but the horror stories over the years have kept me from touching it - is it feasible for a relatively competent dev to break into this market without dark methods?
- mikepurvis 4y ago
  I think the real question for a lot who might consider it is whether it’s possible for a competent and honest dev to break in and make money. Someone who wants to provide meaningful value and experiences to smart users, as opposed to just landing whales.
  - 4y ago

fguerraz 4y ago

Is there a bright side to the Mac App store?

smoldesu 4y ago
Depends. Are you an Apple shareholder?

pcdoodle 4y ago

Apple: Give us 30% because we add that much value via our platform. Meanwhile...

JayStavis 4y ago

I'm optimistic that AI solutions can really do great work to improve false negative/positive rates in highly manual systems like this. With that said, it's a slippery slope, and will quickly lead to different types of inconsistencies in policy, enforcement, and all the other problems that come with taking humans out of the loop.

einpoklum 4y ago

> The Dark Side of the Mac App Store: How Scam Apps and Shady Developers Are Preying on Users As opposed to the "Light Side" of the Mac App store, where the app store itself is preying on app publishers and users, and shady companies behind popular apps are preying on users.

simonw 4y ago

I'm very surprised OpenAI haven't released an official ChatGPT mobile app yet. When you have 100m+ users a large number of them WILL go looking for an app, and will install the first thing they find with ChatGPT in the name.

DuckFeathers 4y ago
The only explanation is some sort of deal with Microsoft to not eat the Bing app's market share. Too bad, the Bing app sucks.

knallfrosch 4y ago

This can't be true. Apple users pay a 30% tax to keep the closed OS with only that store safe and sound.

rchaud 4y ago
They recently cut it to 15%, and to keep the lights on, cut their review staff by 100%.

rufius 4y ago

This is limited to the Mac App Store. I’ve seen the same on the iOS and iPadOS app stores. Either way, sketchy devs are capitalizing on the “gold rush” of generative AI.

jtbayly 4y ago

Seems like an OS problem that they can manage to break the quit option in the app menu. Am I crazy?

lapcat 4y ago
> Seems like an OS problem that they can manage to break the quit option in the app menu. Not really. The same phenomenon can prevent you from losing unsaved changes to a document. Many useful features can become misfeatures when employed by a malicious developer.
- jtbayly 4y ago
  I guess so. I guess that’s partly why force quit exists. The OS does provide a way to do what I expect the OS to handle for me.

ricardobeat 4y ago

This has been the case for the past one or two years already. Every app category is completely filled with scams, crappy clones, and brainless mass-produced 'puzzle games' [1]. Just yesterday I was searching for a 3D modelling app, and roughly 80% of the results were this type of game, while the apps I wanted were far down the list (and came with a $14,99/month subscription). The store has become a complete shit show, and the curation that used to justify the walled garden is nowhere to be found. We get the worst of both worlds. [1] if you can even call them 'games'. They are usually a set of static illustrations, a cheap backstory loosely related to the topic, some drag-and-drop puzzles, and little glimpses of child abuse, violence and sex, being promoted for a 12+ age range.

JKCalhoun 4y ago
It is a shit show. I have zero interest in shipping through the App Store any longer, zero interest in iOS development anymore. You're going up against free (with In-App Purchase!) and so much noise — I'm not sure how a good app will even be discovered any longer. Like you, I've given up trying to find apps that way.
- mfragin 4y ago
  The internet is full! Go away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
DaiPlusPlus 4y ago
Tried Apple Arcade?

bodge5000 4y ago

I remember last year when I got my first Mac in over a decade being excited to see the app store. Every now and then I saw Mac exclusive apps being posted on here that looked incredible, just so well designed with a lot of focus. I also heard about the rigorous review process so assumed that it'd all be like that. When I got it and tried looking for a music player (I'm not a big fan of Apples own music player + it doesn't support FLAC) I was stunned by just how much junk there was on there. The bloody Google Play store looked better, and this was repeated for pretty much every common purpose app I looked for. Of course there were good ones (I never managed to find a good music player, or audiobook player, though), but thats a pretty low bar. Coming from Fedora and seeing the quality apps being put out on Flatpak and the like (Amberol and Cozy for example), as well as quite a few other things about MacOS in general, I felt like Gnome was more like (what I expected from) MacOS than MacOS itself. Over time, as I got used to the differences in the OS, a lot of that faded, but my feelings about the two app markets remains the same.

kccqzy 4y ago
> I saw Mac exclusive apps being posted on here A Mac app that has been posted on HN and appearing on its front page almost certainly passes a higher quality bar than an app found by searching the Mac App Store.
heavyset_go 4y ago
A lot of developers who bought into the "OS X is just a pretty and stable UNIX" mantra from the mid/late 2000's Mac era have jumped off the Mac train. I wrote some popular macOS apps for powerusers, but the nonsense that Apple has pulled over the last 5+ years led to me pulling out, it just isn't worth the headache or literal monetary cost to maintain free software for the platform. There was a lot of software from that era that reminded me of the type of poweruser enthusiasts would write for Linux. It's one of the reasons I originally left Linux for OS X 15+ years ago. These days the pendulum has shifted, Apple is hostile towards powerusers and anyone that wants to modify or run their systems as they see fit. Today, Linux is the "pretty and stable UNIX" that OS X was in the Snow Leopard days. Linux app repositories are filled to the brim with quality software that doesn't show me ads, try to sell me subscriptions or are hindered by my computer's manufacturer for reasons.

souvlakee 4y ago

The article is not ChatGPT generated.

skenderbeg 4y ago

Game theory: when openai releases the „real“ gpt chat app then they will have a hard time ranking in the app store

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

joshspankit 4y ago

Apple would have a much easier time if they allowed devs (and themselves) to fully automate iOS devices so that real testing could be done on real devices in a fast and fully-automatic way.

wkat4242 4y ago

Oh well, nobody really uses the Mac App store anyway. This is the big difference with iOS where you're stuck with it (at least for now until they're forced to open it up).

khana 4y ago

[dead]

vinceguidry 4y ago

Can we please stop pretending that walled gardens produce better quality and security? Apple is only one company, and companies are heavily incentivized to put profits first, quality second. If those two are at odds, guess what the company will prioritize? The only thing that can improve things is more and better standards. Letting companies dictate only results in pretty crap.

can16358p 4y ago

As long as Apple outsources low-quality cheap labor for app reviews this will keep happening. I've been developing iOS apps for 12 years and I can't tell how many times the reviewers failed to follow very basic instructions in review notes, or that they've randomly rejected our apps in a bugfix update that has nothing to do with their rejection reason, almost in each case requiring appealing to review board. The board definitely has some more senior and understanding people with common sense, but why do we need to reach out to them so commonly in the first place? Knowing the quality of app reviewers, it's not a surprise for me to see so many spammy apps in the store.

tradertef 4y ago

Nothing new here. There are many apps which are derived from the same source with minor tweaks. This becomes more obvious if you do a market research on a subject and test/compare various apps. Initially, I thought people were selling/buying template apps but it is more likely that the same person/team is creating and uploading the same app under different skins and names.

wiseowise 4y ago

Where are all AppStore proponents from iOS 17 sideloading thread?

diwakar2008 4y ago

Why don't telcos or large corporations create their own app stores? Similar to Samsung .. is the competition too difficult? Or the review process?

nyarlathotep_ 4y ago

Does anyone know what the author is using here to view call stack/assembly? Is this a feature that Instruments has?

lapcat 4y ago
Hopper: https://www.hopperapp.com/ https://www.hopperapp.com/
- nyarlathotep_ 4y ago
  Thanks!

hot_gril 4y ago

There's a non-dark side? Mac App Store has been a consistent pain as a user just cause of the login and flaky download process. I dread every time I want to download something and it has to come from there. If something that simple is so annoying, I don't even want to know what app discovery or the developer's side is like. Found out a little late that Xcode can be downloaded as a standalone DMG from developer.apple.com/downloads instead of the MAS.

sarkartanmay393 4y ago

a gift from human for machines to communicate while hunting us