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The loophole that made cars in America so big
- docandrew 4y agoNot discussed here is car seat and seatbelt requirements. If you have multiple children in car seats or boosters, you’re going to have a hard time getting more than one in the backseat of a sedan.
- 1-6 4y agoYeah, why not allow for 3-row wagons and the return of 3rd rows with reversed seating? It seems like an easy win for some families who have to choose between an SUV or van.
- lukas099 4y agoMan, I loved those rear-facing seats as a kid.
- sbaiddn 4y agoThey were great. Especially in college with chill friends
- sbaiddn 4y agoPutting the seat there is easy. The trick is making it safe when it's on or behind the rear axle. Everyone else in the car is in a cocoon.
- nine_k 4y agoWhat makes it less safe?
- ultrarunner 4y agoThe rest of the giant vehicles on the road
- sbaiddn 4y agoDumb weight for one. Structural design for another. Everything in between the teo axles has to be very strong since it keeps forces generated by the road from ripping the car apart. On top of that, outside the axles, you're in the automobile's crumple zone - ie it's deliberately designed to fold in itself to absorb the blow of impact. I don't like putting my mother in law on my SUV's third row - I'm loath to put my kid
- hoherd 4y agoMinivans are the most convenient vehicle for families with multiple children. Minivans are not classified as SUV's.
- ghaff 4y agoI have friends (not soccer moms) who often transport a lot of people for activities (like shuttles for whitewater paddling). A number of them use minivans and don't like how the options have decreased relative to 3-row SUVs which they think are relatively less practical cars for their purposes. (And I tend to agree.)
- kube-system 4y agoThe market optimizes for what people will buy, not what they like. If people begrudgingly buy 3 row SUVs instead of minivans, the bean counters count that as a win. There are still 4 minivans on the US market, and really I don’t think there’s space for any others to sell successfully. The ones that exist are damn competitive for what they are, and they still don’t sell well.
- ghaff 4y ago>There are still 4 minivans on the US market, and really I don’t think there’s space for any others to sell successfully. The ones that exist are damn competitive for what they are, and they still don’t sell well. Oh I don't really disagree. The Sienna and Odyssey seem like good vehicles. I'm less familiar with the remaining American(?) models. I also don't know enough to meaningfully speculate why 3-row SUVs took over from minivans for fairly similar use cases even though they seem less effective in a lot of circumstances. Part of it is probably image--especially for some male drivers--but I lack the data to have a strong opinion.
- _yb2s 4y agoMost of the “SUVs” in the US market are really just minivans disguised to look masculine. It took a few decades for manufacturers to realize that this is what people wanted- the rugged looks of a 4x4 with the people transporting ability of a minivan, and no wasted expense or weight on offroad ability. The VW Atlas for example is made specifically for the US market, a 3 row front wheel drive minivan that looks SUV like. It was pretty funny 20 years ago before this was realized- big SUVs had low range transfer cases, skid plates, lockers, air suspension, and tons of other expensive and complicated offroad hardware. The people buying and driving these had no idea what those parts were for, and only found out they had them when they would accidentally activate them on pavement and get an expensive repair bill.
- tzs 4y agoThere are sedans that can have three child seats installed on the backseat. See [1] and [2] for examples. Note that the second link is to an Australian site, so may be using car seats that are not available in the US. Here's a unit, not available in the US, that fits 3 kids in the back of a Fiat 500 [3]. They have a 4 seater [4] that works in a Honda Civic and similar sized cars. [1] https://www.carmax.com/articles/cars-that-fit-three-car-seats https://www.carmax.com/articles/cars-that-fit-three-car-seat... [1] https://www.onlineauto.com.au/best-cars/5-seat-cars-fit-3-child-seats https://www.onlineauto.com.au/best-cars/5-seat-cars-fit-3-ch... [3] https://www.multimac.com/p/multimac_1000_3_seater https://www.multimac.com/p/multimac_1000_3_seater [4] https://www.multimac.com/p/multimac_1200_4_seater https://www.multimac.com/p/multimac_1200_4_seater
- docandrew 4y agoA custom $1500 set of car seats for a small compact is unreasonable. Good luck fitting three normal car seats in any of the sedans in that first link. It’s difficult enough in a _full size truck_.
- sbaiddn 4y ago1. Where's the reverse facing seat for infants? Ive had one installed in my car since '16 and Ill continue to have one for another three years (legally anyway. I hate them and Ill probably chuck it in two). 2. There are tons of car review sites touting three cars seats side by side. I own one of these cars. They don't actually fit. Not in real life. Think of it like the McBurger commercial on TV. In real life... bleh. 3. A big car solves many problems other than transporting three kids. Ive only put 2800 miles on my SUV this year, but: - Ive driven six (six!) people on two >600 mi journeys. - Ive loaded it with all the tiles and flooring needed for my remodel - picked up 2x4s and the like - taken my neighbors kid's to the theater with my family many times
- sbaiddn 4y agoYup. I can squeeze the kids in the Golf... if my eldest doesn't use her booster. I can put them in the Sorrento.... But I have to buckle her into her seat belt while shes standing holding the boosted. Then I have to lift them both to get them i to position. We want a new car. We were going to buy a Sienna hybrid. But they're ridiculously priced, unobtainium and, frankly, not that big. So Im looking at a low milage Expedition Max or convincing the wife for a Sprinter.
- freedomben 4y agoYep, we just got our Sienna hybrid a couple weeks ago. We literally waited 19 months to get it. It's beyond absurd at this point. Maybe some people are buying SUVs because they can't wait until their new baby is walking and talking before driving them somewhere?
- _yb2s 4y agoThe golf is such a well designed car… a tiny efficient car with more usable space inside than many SUVs. When I had a kid I went from a golf to a full sized SUV and was shocked to find that the usable space was barely any larger.
- sbaiddn 4y agoLove the Golf, but honestly, the hatchback versa's space efficiency impressed me more than the golf. It's significantly smaller than the golf, but its tall, has a smaller engine bay and very thin doors. It was easier to pack my firstborn's stuff in it than the Golf. We got rid of it for the Sorrento when we got rear ended when my daughter was four days old. Then I decided I'd get the heaviest vehicle I could then afford - the Sorrento.
- prepend 4y agoI don’t know about that. I had a tiny Audi a3 over 10 years ago and easily fit two giant recaro car seats. And a booster seat sat between them.
- IshKebab 4y agoYou can get two car seats in pretty much any not tiny car. Three or more, sure. Are 3+ children families really that common in America? They're pretty rare in the UK now due to childcare costs and the fact that housewives are rare.
- Simulacra 4y agoThe intent of the Energy Policy and Conservation Act of 1975 was to make all passenger vehicles in America more fuel efficient. But auto lobbyists convinced regulators to make a subtle change to the bill’s text. While efficiency standards for cars would be written into the law itself, the standards for trucks were to be set by regulators at the Transportation Department. In short, because SUVs are built on a truck frame and are considered trucks, they are not held to the same fuel standards as cars.
- jdsully 4y agoThat was true in the 90s but most SUVs people are buying today are on a unibody frame.
- mertd 4y agoThe loophole enabled car makers to produce SUVs but ultimately the consumers who still had a choice between fuel efficient sedans and SUVs, overwhelmingly chose to buy SUVs.
- cnelsenmilt 4y agoSure, in the same way that when I'm trying to lose weight and want a snack I will make a choice between a celery stick and a cookie, or I can forestall the choice by not having a cookie in the house in the first place. The story of Odysseus and the sirens.
- replygirl 4y agoExcept in automotive we have options that taste like cookies with all the benefits of celery sticks: hatchbacks and wagons with great cargo capacity, ride quality, driving dynamics, and fuel efficiency. In America we go with the unhealthy cookie even though the healthy one tastes the same, because we don't want to look gay or poor
- DangitBobby 4y agoNot every choice other people make different from you is bigoted.
- replygirl 4y agoI daily a sports car and am shopping for an old Bronco I don't need. Come from a family and community where everyone owns a body-on-frame truck or SUV. I'm just stating the facts
- raverbashing 4y agoYeah, people are quick to call regulation, but the consumers continue to have the choice. It's not like they're obligated to buy a car that's so tall you can run over a child without noticing. And then again, other countries have lower limits on the weight of vehicles you can drive with a regular driver's license.
- oldnetguy 4y agoWhy did Chevrolet drop the Spark and Sonic? Why did Toyota drop the Yaris? Why is the Honda Civic so big? Cars have gotten bigger due to a lot of factors and this article addresses none of them.
- vidanay 4y ago1988 Geo Metro could get like 54 MPG. Impossible to build and sell due to 2023 regulations.
- BigCryo 4y agoBack in the 1980s Toyota started making super efficient cars that hardly ate any gas. So Detroit had to start going along with the idea. Cars back then got a lot more gas mileage than they do today even though the engines were not as sufficient but they did so because the cars had much lighter weight than they do today.. cars today are heavier per volume because of all the safety regulations. The safety regulations were pushed through Congress based on media scare propaganda about traffic safety and car crashes and so forth. But who paid the media to put out all that propaganda. That led to safer but heavier cars that consumed more gasoline? I have an idea. I think it was the oil companies that paid the media to put out scare propaganda about automobile safety and then they paid the politicians to pass the laws to make cars a lot safer and heavier.. that caused the price of gas to go back up
- phendrenad2 4y agoBy loophole do they mean lots of highways?
- sb057 4y agoThe reason large cars are popular in America is because Americans want to and can afford to buy them. This is due to a number of factors beyond this "loophole", including advertising, cultural norms, the fact that a third of Americans are now obese and can't fit in smaller cars, a safety arms race, and a number of other things.
- prng2021 4y agoYea this article makes it sound like the loophole is the primary reason but I don’t think it’s even a significant contributor. Anyone can google the top 5 SUVs sold in 2022. None of them are over the 6,000 pound gross weight limit to be counted as a track. All of them over grown significantly in physical size over the past decade. American family sizes have steadily dropped for many decades so the editor’s mention of millennials and family sizes contributing to demand for large vehicles is nonsensical. Americans just love big cars and that desire vastly trumps and concern over environmental impact.
- euroderf 4y agoAnd when gas prices go up, everyone gets all whiny and acts all oppressed.
- prepend 4y agoHigh gas prices are regressive and are a little oppressive. So they function like a tax, most impacting the poor. Makes sense to while about it. And is an oppression, while definitely not the worst.
- euroderf 4y agoI'd like to see the US jack up gas taxes, and then at the end of the year, refund most of it as an equal amount per adult. That would create some serious incentives to cut down on driving or even give up cars entirely, while not becoming a cash cow for the feds.
- venk12 4y agoI believe this has to do with how the cities are designed in some sense. For most places in the US, you need to travel so many miles to get basic stuff including your groceries. This means people would have to prefer convenience more than shorter trips. SUV looks like a good option from that standpoint.
- nine_k 4y agoThe problem is that the US have relatively few cities proper, in the European meaning of the word. If you live in NYC, most of the time you don't need a car, and a ton of people here don't even own one. If you look at, say, Houston, it's a whole different business.
- IshKebab 4y agoIt's definitely better than America but I think that's an overly rosy view of European cities. Yes the capitals and a handful of the biggest cities are like that, but most of the minor cities have poor enough public transport that a car is still close to a necessity for most of their population.
- ido 4y agoI live in Germany and even minor cities that probably nobody outside Germany even knows about (like Brandenburg an der Havel, Magdeburg and Halle) have very decent public transit to the point that you don't really need a car to live in any of these.
- everyone 4y agoSaw a good video about this recently... https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo
- throw0101b 4y ago> https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo Discussion: * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35202168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35202168
- Consultant32452 4y agoThe loophole is that they were not regulated into oblivion. That's not a loophole.
- alphabettsy 4y agoThere are many gaps in the article. They talk about SUVs the size of the Ford Expedition, which certainly sold well, but smaller SUVs like the Ford Explorer, Chevy Blazer and Jeep Cherokee that are more similar to the crossovers our roads are jammed with today sold even bigger number and continued to grow in popularity. I think the number of reason is cheap fuel compared to Europe, marketing, infrastructure and norms. We don’t have old cities with narrow streets like Europe does. Our suburban homes have space for a large car. Our cars were always big.
- pantalaimon 4y agoSUVs have grown in popularity in Europe too. In Germany it feels like it’s becoming the new standard car class, every brand seems to have an SUV as their most popular model.
- nuancebydefault 4y agoPlease note that what's called SUV in Europe is quite different from the average SUV on US roads. A vehicle in the sub-compact segment consuming less than 5.5 liters of gasoline per 100 km is something else than a Grand Cherokee.
- bearmode 4y agoBut it still displays an upward trend in car size, in Europe as in the US
- markeibes 4y agoAnybody remember the Canyonero?
- CraigRo 4y agoThe rules penalized larger cars, but but equivalent sized SUVs. They also mandated a lot of new safety stuff that is heavy: airbags, side impact protection, pedestrian crash stuff, crumple zones, cameras, etc. So this basically killed off wagons, which were what people actually wanted to drive. My last three cars have gone from 2500 (1998) to 2750 (2016) to 3300 (2022) despite being basically the same size and same function.
- mgarfias 4y agoWtf is a “paved dirt road”?
- bearmode 4y agoIf the infrastructure in the US gave less space to cars, cars would be forced to stay relatively small. If we in Europe also had huge roads everywhere, no pavements, no cycle paths etc, we'd also have much larger cars. Create more small, local neighbourhoods with everything needed in them. Make sure everyone has a grocery store, a school, a doctor's office, and green space like a park within walking distance.