20 ms·

The 25-year import rule here, which bans Americans from importing vehicles from other countries unless they're 25+ years old, is just awful for those of us who

• derefr 3y ago
  What counts as "importing a car", anyway? What's stopping someone from e.g. having the car disassembled, imported as parts, and reassembled?
  • 77pt77 3y ago
    Registering the vehicle must likely.
  • akiselev 3y ago
    Nothing. If you're only going to use it non-commercially on private property, there's almost nothing stopping you. You can even have an entire tank shipped in as long as it doesn't have any shells [1] or secondary guns, and you don't have to take it apart or anything. The question is: is it street legal and can you legally get it registered to drive afterwards? Once you ask that question, tons of regulations come into play ranging from axle weight to emissions standards to safety requirements. [1] you gotta have an ATF destructive devices license and follow state specific laws if you want to fire the main cannon
    • derefr 3y ago
      > you gotta have an ATF destructive devices license and follow state specific laws if you want to fire the main cannon Okay, now that’s a rabbit hole if I’ve ever seen one. Because: tanks are operated by a crew, not just one person. So who on the tank crew needs this certification? Presumably, at least, the gunner—i.e. the person actually pressing the button to fire the cannon—would. But how about the owner of the tank? How about the driver, if that's a different person? Can the driver/owner of a privately-owned-and-operated tank just be a regular dude, and call in an expert (maybe someone from the National Guard) to sit in the tank alongside them as its gunner? I know that ATF explosives experts are usually called in by e.g. YouTube science content-creators, to handle the actual "explosives" parts of explosives demos. But in such cases, the ATF fellow doesn't just set off the explosives; they also set them up, in fact usually sourcing the explosives themselves rather than trusting explosive materiel given to them. In the case of a tank, the tank is already there on-site when the expert arrives; and its cannon shells are probably also already there on-site, as finished explosives. Would a destructive-devices-licensed expert insist on calling in an engineer for an audit of the tank's soundness as weapons platform, to ensure e.g. the cannon barrel will still be able to take the strain of firing after sitting unmaintained for decades? (And would that person need to be specifically trained and certified in Weapons Engineering to be able to sign off on the tank's soundness?) Would they insist on sourcing their own shells, or, if that's impossible (vintage/foreign tank where shells of the required shape can't be locally sourced), perhaps having them refurbished (opened, cleaned, re-filled with a known explosive mix, re-packed) by a trusted factory? And do the rules change if the driver tells the gunner when to fire? In fact, would the answer to the licensing question be different depending on the type of crewed weapons platform we're talking about? Would you, as a vehicle owner, need a destructive-devices license to e.g. captain a gunboat in a private pond, given that it is usually understood that the captain of a ship has overriding authority for any decisions anyone else who has boarded their ship makes while on board (and so, in other words, can tell a gunner to fire off a missile whether the gunner thinks that's a good idea or not)?
  • kalleboo 3y ago
    This is called the "kit car" loophole, and some people have successfully used it (e.g. the Nissan Skyline R34 GT-R in The Fast & the Furious movie was brought over like this)
• FanaHOVA 3y ago
  > micro-sized European city cars I see plenty of Smarts and Fiat 500s in San Francisco
  • ryeights 3y ago
    Both discontinued. Although the Fiat is making a return as an EV
• deelowe 3y ago
  That rule ain't changing unfortunately. Regulatory capture is STRONG with automotive and the US sees it as a matter of national security (car makers would be pivoted to other ares in times of war).
  • __MatrixMan__ 3y ago
    How easily could they retool for an event like that? I think I've just hatched a conspiracy theory for why all our vehicles are absurdly sized...
    • Our_Benefactors 3y ago
      More easily than if the factory doesn’t exist at all.
    • asveikau 3y ago
      I thought the standard conspiracy theory was that they started making them larger to avoid environmental regulation (which is pretty ironic). Here's the first google result for "large cars regulation loophole", looks like an interesting read: https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-loophole-that-supersized-cars/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-lo... Edit: prior HN discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35609521 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35609521
      • llanowarelves 3y ago
        Thanks for the links. Why is the phrase "conspiracy theory" used for that though? Sounds like it's a value-judgement free decision from manufacturers to follow the incentives from the policy as we'd predict: way cheaper and less work to make those (now pretty popular) vehicles bigger than R&D and re-tool factories to make smaller and/or more efficient. It would need to be made more efficient to get smaller otherwise you lose power. Truck owners are comparing power (even if they dont use it, and it's sometimes just brand bragging rights) so that sounds like a worse option if you're making and selling them.
• nostromo 3y ago
  What would be the point of safety and emissions regulations if we let everyone bypass them by importing vehicles from abroad? The vehicles meeting the requirements wouldn't be competitive on price because they'd be playing by a different set of rules.
  • triceratops 3y ago
    It's even less likely that a 25 year old vehicle will meet current safety and emissions regulations.
    • nostromo 3y ago
      The amount of those vehicles will obviously be limited. Removing it would allow people to buy cheap cars in places like Mexico, that have loose emissions standards, and drive them around California, which has some of the most stringent emissions standards in the world. Not to mention the safety requirements issues...
      • triceratops 3y ago
        So only allow imports from countries with emissions and safety standards equal to or greater than American ones. I don't understand why the age of the vehicle should matter.
        • inferiorhuman 3y ago
          That's already the case. You can legally import a modern kei car if you can modify it to meet relevant safety and emissions standards. You can import any modern car. I imported a 2001 BMW from Canada a few years back and it was a breeze because it already had the EPA stickers and BMW NA signed off on the safety stuff. You can import a non-compliant car (e.g. some carburetted kei car with minimal safety equipment) if you bring it up to the US standards that were in effect at the time. Nobody wants to bother does not mean that nobody can. The 25 (well I think DOT is 20 years and EPA is 25 or vice versa) means you can import shit without it having to meet relevant federal standards. States (e.g. California) will still want to see proof it doesn't pollute too much, and CARB tests are expensive. Sates like Washington will let you register pretty much anything with wheels which is how you see a lot of non-US. market cars for sale out here with Washington plates.
• moltar 3y ago
  You can still find plenty of amazing vehicles, in great condition in the South of Europe. The weather there is great and cars don’t deteriorate as much. I see plenty of Toyotas and Hondas from pre 97 models. They still cost around 3-4 K EUR probably because they are such an easy maintenance that they will still drive for another decade and that’s priced in.
  • Glawen 3y ago
    It is just cargo cult. The value of these old Toyota and Honda makes no sense. I was looking to buy an old Toyota because of the hype on internet, but there are not a lot of them being in Europe, and 70% of them had an engine issue (threads holding head gasket were missing, common issue on aluminium engine). At one point, I pondered buying a Toyota previa with this head gasket issue for 3K and planed to repair it myself. Fortunately I got my sense back and bought a Renault Scenic with no issue at all, 2K and I managed to have also the timing belt replaced. Yes, internet thinks that because it is a French car, it will crumble. Well internet, so far it had no issue and its head gasket is intact.
    • fooker 3y ago
      Yep, the post pandemic cars from Toyota and Honda especially have been having terrible quality and QA issues. I've seen a new 2023 4runner with weird panel gaps, unnecessarily stiff handling (compared to a 2020 model), and sunroof motors stopped working after rain.
  • jmrm 3y ago
    Please, don't buy our cars here in Spain. Most of people here, specially young people, cannot afford a new car with our 1100€/month after taxes of mininal wage and our 350€/room /month (in cheap places) on the flats we usually live. With that situation, we usually buy cars before 2005 or so, and we pay those 3k to 4k euros in those, and usually with over 250 000 km (155 000 miles). Depending on the model, they even can be more expensive than people would think: A late 90s Nissan Terrano would cost from 6k to 7k, and my current car, a Korean one that cost about 13k in 2012, now cost from 9k to 11k (unless it has too much mileage or isn't in a decent shape).
• inferiorhuman 3y ago
  The 25-year import rule here, which bans Americans from importing vehicles from other countries unless they're 25+ years old That's not what the rule is. That's the end result because nobody wants to spend money to get a foreign market car to meet the relevant safety and emissions standards.
  • nyx 3y ago
    Yeah, that's completely right, but as you said in another comment, there's some real bullshit in the FMVSS that to me, a complete layperson, seems like it has the sole effect of blocking the certification of perfectly safe and clean modern vehicles from other advanced nations. Of course we shouldn't be allowing people to import some pollution-spewing deathtrap that doesn't have seatbelts--the FMVSS regulations do exist for a reason--but I think we should be taking a more critical look at our regulations, especially as compared to other places at the same socioeconomic level.
    • inferiorhuman 3y ago
      perfectly safe and clean modern vehicles from other advanced nations A lot of what's being discussed are neither perfectly safe nor clean by American standards. The UK, for instance, allows pretty much anything with wheels to be registered (e.g. the Peel). Euro NCAP is merely advisory, you can still sell/buy a death trap. Pollution as well. Want an early 90s Figaro or S-Cargo or a late 00s Hijet? Those were sold without cats or fuel injection. Want something cheap and Euro? Cool. The cheap shit is often cheap because it pollutes so much it can't legally be driven in city centers any longer. A lot of the bellyaching is over cars that the manufacturers couldn't justify fixing up to meet American standards.
      • cameronh90 3y ago
        Yet the UK (and most other developed countries) have far fewer fatalities per vehicle or kilometre driven, as well as cars that output less pollution per kilometre. Obviously there are many confounding factors, but the point is if the USA really cared, it'd federally mandate more effective measures like safety inspections and emissions testing. The import restrictions are protectionism.
• chair6 3y ago
  We love our quirky, slow 1993 Mitsubishi JB500 campervan (https://www.instagram.com/finnthejb500/ https://www.instagram.com/finnthejb500/), but the experience is not for everyone. We were able to register it in Washington without too much hassle. It definitely pays to do some research and try to find a local-ish mechanic willing to work on them before you make the purchase.
  • hn_user82179 3y ago
    Wow, what a great campervan. I've seen some of the egg-like old japanese campervans but not one like yours. Very cool!
    • mcv 3y ago
      Is that an unusual campervan to you? To me it looks like the most archetypal standard campervan there is. I've seen tons somewhat like it, although this looks like a particularly nice compact model.
      • wlonkly 3y ago
        There's North American RVs, and there's Japanese-import vans, but this one looks to me like a an RV and a Japanese van had a baby.
• eduction 3y ago
  You can import new tiny cars and drive them all you want on a farm or private grounds, you just can’t take them on roads if they don’t meat road safety standards. Even the advocate highlighted in this article (Economist) admits his would probably be a “death trap” on a busy highway. Maybe the US should create separate standards for city streets and roads with low speed limits, that could be a good way to bring down vehicle sizes. But just allowing these things just anywhere seems like a recipe for increased fatalities. For every HN reader who would use theirs wisely there are 10 average Americans who would risk maiming.
  • kube-system 3y ago
    > Maybe the US should create separate standards for city streets and roads with low speed limits, that could be a good way to bring down vehicle sizes. They already have! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicl... But it’s a hard sell when the US has so many high speed roads. I mostly see them used for facility maintenance, parking enforcement etc.
    • jcrawfordor 3y ago
      There are several companies that import new mini-trucks titled as LSVs, too. Vantage Vehicle is one of them.
  • JKCalhoun 3y ago
    States vary. Some disallow them on all highways, others allow them on State highways, not Federal....
    • seltzered_ 3y ago
      Yep. Also depends on whether it's a 'kei truck' or something larger. For example, they recently became street legal in North Carolina ( https://www.ncleg.gov/BillLookup/2019/H179 https://www.ncleg.gov/BillLookup/2019/H179 )
• JKCalhoun 3y ago
  Also, import tax on trucks is 20% (if I recall correctly). Maybe over double the tax on cars. Not sure why trucks get special protection(ism).
  • mullingitover 3y ago
    Chickens, and spite. That's the official story.[1] Unofficially, it's indirectly how we got the Civil Rights Act passed as a quid pro quo: > In retrospect, audio tapes from the Johnson White House, revealed a quid pro quo unrelated to chicken. In January 1964, President Johnson attempted to convince United Auto Workers' president Walter Reuther not to initiate a strike just before the 1964 election and to support the president's civil-rights platform. Reuther, in turn, wanted Johnson to respond to Volkswagen's increased shipments to the United States. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
  • pvarangot 3y ago
    Because they are "tools"
  • elihu 3y ago
    The "chicken tax" is 25% actually, unless something changed recently.
• IIAOPSW 3y ago
  There's electric bikes in China that are more like a Vespa than anything. Commuting this way was pretty great when I owned one. The range is perfect for urban commuters, charging it at night is basically negligible in your power bill, it slips right past the cars so there's no such thing as traffic (whatever cars pass you, you pass them right back by the next red light), likewise parking is a non-issue as it takes a fraction of the space, and its so dirt cheap that even if its stolen or totaled or breaks its not a huge pain. It doesn't have trunk space but for an urban commute that doesn't matter much. There's just enough under-seat storage for a laptop and some stationary. Look into it, the import laws on cars probably don't apply, and if they do even with tariffs the vehicle is so dirt cheap to begin with you may as well eat the cost. It cost a low 3-digit US dollar value back when I bought one.
  • iambateman 3y ago
    This is all true…and also American drivers are legitimately aggressive toward these kind of vehicles. They have a terrible reputation, primarily because they get used a lot by people who can’t afford a car. I wish it were different, but driving a moped/Vespa on American roads is a pretty big risk.
    • bioemerl 3y ago
      > primarily because they get used a lot by people who can’t afford a car. Primarily because they are slow and constantly get in your way, building a train of cars and making many people late for work.
      • DontTrustOver25 3y ago
        Which is why we need to invest more in non-car infrastructure like ample bike lines, reliable publish transit, and pedestrian friendly sidewalks :)
        • IIAOPSW 3y ago
          and funky atoll autocorrect
• RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 3y ago
  > [...] awful for those of us who would be interested in driving small, efficient foreign cars. I currently drive a small efficient car, but I'm seriously contemplating buying an electric SUV for my next car, even though I've no use for it. I don't drive a lot, but every time I drive, I see drivers on their phones, drivers who don't signal, drivers who race the lights, drivers who don't turn their head lights on at night, and other general poor situational awareness, etc. etc. And about once a month I see someone run the red light by a _large_ margin. By absolute measurements SUVs are worse in most metrics including safety, but alas prisoner's dilemma prevails. No amount of defensive driving on my part is gonna trump physics, if / when my tiny hatchback gets T-boned by a lifted truck.
  • trafnar 3y ago
    Isn’t it better in safety due to the physics you mentioned?
    • RJIb8RBYxzAMX9u 3y ago
      Yes and no. Let's say everyone drives compact cars, then my risk level -- completely made up number -- is 20. However, if everyone's driving para-tanks while I keep driving my compact car, then my risk level rises to 60, due to aforementioned physics. Now, if I join everyone, then my risk level falls to 40, so I'm safer. But compare to the initial case, I'm still less safe. Hence the prisoner's dilemma.
      • nickpeterson 3y ago
        I’ve been downvoted over this before but really we just need weight limits on cars. Efficiency is pretty closely aligned and we seem to regulate that just fine.
        • WillPostForFood 3y ago
          Efficiency is pretty closely aligned Not in the battery power era.
• Aeolun 3y ago
  If it’s legal for BMW to import it’s cars and sell them, then it should be legal for Toyota to import it’s kei cars and sell them in the US right? You just can’t do it as an individual.
  • gramie 3y ago
    I would suspect that Japanese kei cars would not pass the safety requirements. Road speeds really are much slower over there. IIRC, the warning alarm on my kei car in the 90s would go off if I exceeded 90 km/h (about 55 mph).
    • bombcar 3y ago
      They would have to classify them as golf carts or something. There are various tricks, depending on the state.
    • hahamrfunnyguy 3y ago
      The highways speeds are the same though. I drove a kei car on the highway in Japan. It was fine, but not a great driving experience. I wouldn't have wanted to drive a regular/full sized American car in Japan though, the roads are really narrow.
  • pbmonster 3y ago
    Almost all BMWs on the road in the US are built in Spartanburg, South Carolina.
• worthless-trash 3y ago
  Doesn't sound like freedom.
• megablast 3y ago
  > but absent major changes to how we plan our cities, People make this excuse all the time in australia too. I have never had a problem living all over, including small country towns, without a car. Excuses are bullshit for most people.
• Taniwha 3y ago
  Here in NZ we import a lot of 2nd hand Japanese vehicles (helps that we drive on the same side of the road), in the city I live the most popular EV is a 2nd hand Japanese Leaf - we have one for an around town day to day car (complemented by a 20 year old Prius)
• stevev 3y ago
  The 25-year import rule serves as evidence of how the United States has struggled in competition and developing vehicles over the past several decades. Toyota and Subaru are present in the United States because there is an incentive to manufacture them locally, which serves as a valuable learning experience for the US. Thus the United States' car manufacturers are either perceived as being of low quality or lagging behind their competitors, leading to the country being utilized as a third-party for inexpensive assembly.
  • deaddodo 3y ago
    There are a couple issues with your assessment. A) most cars manufactured by European and Japanese brands are built in Mexico and direct imported via NAFTA/USMCA. The fact that Toyota and Honda choose to continue to do manufacturing in the United States is probably seen as a boon to those local communities. B) the "low quality" image of American brands is pretty limited to the United States, like a lot of American products (California wine, for instance, is generally bottom shelf in the US but well regarded internationally). In Russia, Ford used to be their top marquee. Ford and GM are both huge in Oceania. In LATAM, they're seen as a step up from Japanese and Chinese brands and Volkswagen. In Europe, they're not generally perceived as low-quality; instead, the perception is that they're too large and fuel inefficient for most European roads/cities.
    • dep_b 3y ago
      For some reason there’s a niche of people that drive RAM Vans in the Netherlands. Not sure why exactly that brand and model but it’s the only ‘Murican style trick you see on our roads.
    • sofixa 3y ago
      > In Europe, they're not generally perceived as low-quality; instead, the perception is that they're too large and fuel inefficient for most European roads/cities. The only American brands I see in Europe are either old Chevrolets (manufactured in Germany by Opel when they were part of GM) or Jeep/Dodge/RAM trucks and similar which are owned by Stellantis (the merger of PSA (Peugeot, Citroen) and FCA (Fiat, Chrysler)) and manufactured in Italy. So they aren't know for their poor quality because they're made in the EU, in the same factories that make other known models, on the same bases (e.g. an Opel Ampera and a Chevrolet Volt are the same car, from the same factory, different badge, slightly different interior, slightly different exterior), but they are known as shit inefficient cars that mostly assholes buy. The only American American cars (not built in the EU with an American badge slapped on the front, but produced in Mexico) that I can think of that I have seen in Europe are Chrysler PT Cruisers which are universally known as shit.
• nicexe 3y ago
  Cyprus regulations for importing cars state: - Must be 5 years old or newer for Passenger car. - 4 years old or newer for Commercial cars up to 3 tons I find it funny (yet I see this all the time) that 2 countries have polar opposite regulations for the same topic.
• zirgs 3y ago
  Haha, if my country had a 25 year ban then there would be very few cars on the road and Germany would have to find some other place where to dump their used cars.
• mcv 3y ago
  That 25+ year rule also guarantees that the models are not going to be up to date to modern standards regarding pollution (though I'm not sure they've been updated in 25 years in the US) or safety (but extremely unsafe oversized trucks for personal use are allowed anyway, so apparently nobody really cares about safety). I think the US needs to update a lot of rules regarding the sale, import, pollution and import of cars, including trucks. Require commercial licenses for the big stuff, have US manufacturers manufacture these practical small cars in the US according to modern US standards, and allow the import of vehicles that US manufacturers refuse to make.
• nivenkos 3y ago
  I thought the US wanted free trade and free markets, why do they put up with so much protectionism?
  • tijl 3y ago
    The US has a huge internal market. But their reliance on international trade is small. Exports amount to less then 10% of their GDP [1]. As a comparison, France has the lowest amount of exports per GDP in the EU, and theirs is almost 30%. Germany's is 47%. For many smaller EU countries, it's even higher [2]. The US cares a lot about keeping international shipping lanes open (mainly because they used to rely on imported oil). But they are very protectionist, and always have been. International trade is just not that important to them. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/258779/us-exports-as-a-percentage-of-gdp/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/258779/us-exports-as-a-p... [2] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.ZS?end=2021&locations=EU&most_recent_value_desc=false&start=1970&view=chart https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NE.EXP.GNFS.ZS?end=2021...
  • hinata08 3y ago
    Conservative US politicians (especially Trump) consider the economy is a zero sum game. Whenever you buy from aboard, that's money and jobs that are lost to the USA. So they want to export, but not to import! And instead of banning the imports, they just set technical standards. Like requiring specific bumpers and car height, and pollution standards, despite the fact US roads are deadlier and the US pollutes more than anywhere else. Other countries are a bit more optimistic about international trade, and recognize they can't do everything. Western Europe, for exemple, has focused on high added value engineering and office jobs, to outsource production to Eastern Europe and Asia. And everyone has an engineering degree in here, so good luck to live on your factory job.
    • cmilton 3y ago
      > the US pollutes more than anywhere else. Do you have a source for this claim? In my limited searching China exceeds the US in pollution. My sources could be biased, so I would be happy to take a look at yours.
• Etrnl_President 3y ago
  Why stop there? If the Toyota Hillox is good enough for Al-Quaeda, why not import it for Americans? It lasts longer, is easier repaired, and is tougher than an f350.
• Etrnl_President 3y ago
  > can't have a 2020s Japanese kei car shipped to a US port at my expense because it'd be illegal to register it. IIRC the frame makes the car, so you could bolt your kei to a Geo Metro frame, and register it in one of the more lenient states (KY, AZ)