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French publisher arrested in London for refusal to tell police his passcodes
- more_corn 3y agoWhat the fuck. Nobody gets my passwords. I’m not unlocking shit for anyone. Looks like UK is on the hard avoid list.
- jmclnx 3y agoI know, I was thinking of going there next year, not now.
- devmunchies 3y agoIf concerned about privacy/security during international travel, a good option is to get a burner phone. A cheap android phone is peanuts.
- mrkeen 3y agoGive it time. One day people will be arrested at borders for "suspicion that they are travelling with a decoy phone".
- c1sc0 3y ago“Not having a smart phone” already is a warning sign in some countries.
- pengaru 3y agoYeppppp https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone https://www.aclu.org/other/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
- nobody9999 3y ago>If concerned about privacy/security during international travel, a good option is to get a burner phone. A cheap android phone is peanuts. Or just a Nandroid[0][1] backup and flashing the stock rom before you go, then restoring upon return. [0] https://www.howtogeek.com/240582/how-to-back-up-and-restore-your-android-phone-with-twrp/ https://www.howtogeek.com/240582/how-to-back-up-and-restore-... [1] I don't know if this is possible with Apple phones, as I don't use them. Perhaps someone could elucidate on the viability of this option for iOS devices?
- sph 3y agoWell shit, this was my reason not to ever visit the US, but I live in Britain so I'm fucked anyway.
- jmclnx 3y agoI wish I could laugh, seems the US, UK and Australia are in a competition to see who can out do each other. What is it with English Speaking Countries ? I guess Canada is OK because of Quebec keeps them sane :)
- yamtaddle 3y ago> What is it with English Speaking Countries ? Legal systems based on common-law?
- louloulou 3y agoCanada has the same shit, NZ too.
- upofadown 3y agoApparently not for the Canadian case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#Canada
- jmclnx 3y ago>In a 2010 Quebec Court of Appeal case the court stated that a password compelled from an individual by law enforcement "is inadmissible and that renders the subsequent seizure of the data unreasonable Quebec for the win :)
- ta1243 3y agoFrance and Belgium also have similar laws backed by imprisonment
- ta1243 3y agoLiterally been like this for over 15 years, and people were sent to jail from 2009 onwards because of it https://www.theregister.com/2009/11/24/ripa_jfl https://www.theregister.com/2009/11/24/ripa_jfl
- pengaru 3y agoIt's not like Americans never get arrested or even jailed for remaining silent, despite it being protected by the fifth amendment. The US and UK are more similar than they are different.
- wordyskeleton 3y agohttps://theintercept.com/2019/06/22/cbp-border-searches-journalists/ https://theintercept.com/2019/06/22/cbp-border-searches-jour...
- sph 3y agoWho says they're from the US?
- lobocinza 3y agoUK and EU are laying a lot of stones to become authoritarian in the near future.
- phnofive 3y agoThe legal system in the UK recognizes several rights against self-incrimination, but there is a carve-out for the per se crime of failing to disclose a key to encrypted information - punishable by years in prison. How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? Why should the police be permitted to assume you're guilty and in possession of vital information under certain circumstances?
- izzydata 3y agoI suspect the law is not intended to be logically consistent.
- kergonath 3y ago> How is this different than refusing to tell where you've buried the bodies? They can get away with it because it’s on a computer. The voters don’t care, and the MPs by and large don’t understand. Those who do would love the same principle to apply to the body case as well.
- toyg 3y agoThat's because the memory of truly oppressive governments in Western Europe has faded. People who don't remember history, are doomed to repeat it.
- pengaru 3y agoI wonder if Berlin's society is already atrophying in this department.
- toyg 3y agoGermans are actually the most inoculated against that type of virus, they will be the last to fall. They are at the forefront of anti-authoritarian efforts in technology, for example. US/UK/France, on the other hand...
- kergonath 3y agoThat is a disgrace. A direct consequence of totalitarian laws. And at the same time, I really want to know the role of the French government. I cannot believe HMG cares whether someone was amongst the hundreds of thousands who demonstrated last week. Why set up such an ambush for a book publisher?
- harry8 3y agoIn trying to normalise search with no warrant nor oversight in the UK one would definitely expect its use against someone who is "us" but not really. One can't imagine this being done on a member of the house of commons, house of lords, famous bbc actor or personality or even a non-famous British subject and you might get rather a lot more pushback than doing it against a Frenchman nobody has heard of. I think it would be horribly naive of us to not assume these kinds of considerations were discussed extensively prior by the police involved and their superiors. Remember when it was said repeatedly by politicians that just this sort of thing would never happen. When the power exists it will find a way, every time. There was a time when a publisher being kept in jail for years on a mere accusation in a country he's not visited that he may have breached a law universally regarded as utterly absurd by legal scholars would be something for which the air of the UK was too free to even countenance, whatever one's views of the man but that man is Australian, you know and he was also accused of rape, which seems a very, very weak accusation all this time later and also antisemitism, for which we haven't seen any evidence. Take out the support of the person and personality when doing a power grab. Is it policy or simply repeated coincidence? The person and personality does not matter - they can be as big a scumbag as possible and that should be of zero consequence. The principle really, really, really does. Now we watch for leaks and stories about just what a reprehensible human being this previously anonymous French publisher really is so no matter that you're losing your rights against warrantless search because you're not a French publisher accused of something, nor an Australian... Don't you worry about it, just leave it to the police who are never corrupt, never criminal, never abuse power, never rape, never murder, never derail nazi thug murder investigations because they're friends with one of the thugs drug-dealer parents. The British police want no oversight because they clearly need no oversight. Although I'm sure Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein or (insert current object of the hate) would agree with any dissent on the matter.
- macinjosh 3y agoWestern democracies are falling into authoritarian behavior at a remarkable rate. I am legit worried.
- bilbo0s 3y agoI guess to be fair, there always has been an authoritarian bent to Western democracies. It's just that most of us here on HN are not members of the groups against which those democracies employ authoritarian practices. It just kind of shows you why you have to stand up as soon as you see a practice or law that's F'ed up. It's pretty much a guarantee that on a time-scale long enough, that government will use that practice on you.
- jussaying2 3y agoEven better, the folks who frequent HN could stop aiding authoritarianism by building the tech, but that would require turning down lucrative RSUs, so I'm not holding my breath.
- barnabee 3y agoWe should not only stop building tech that aids authoritarianism but start building tech that fights it. Time for a cypherpunk revival.
- brokenmachine 3y agoDystopia is where the real money's at.
- 1827162 3y agoAnd they'll just infiltrate your open source project, in the name of preventing petty "harassment" of developers. That way they will allow weaknesses in the protocol to arise, due to attrition of the best developers. And there you go, everything has been handed over to intelligence agencies, who can now easily break its security.
- 3y ago
- devmunchies 3y agoThis is why passcodes are better than biometric auth. It’s easy for an officer to hold the phone up to your face.
- olliej 3y agoIt’s super easy to disable biometric auth immediately, either explicitly all through repeatedly failing the biometric auth by moving and keeping your eyes shut.
- y-curious 3y agoNot a foolproof method I would trust if I had something to hide from the police.
- 0xbadcafebee 3y agoUnless they use the Ludovico technique
- 1letterunixname 3y agoDon't tell the cops I hate showtunes
- jxramos 3y agonot sure how much face recognition was disabled by this but I rolled my eyes all the way up and it did not unlock, kind of strained my eyeballs though.
- ta1243 3y agoyes the rolling eyes method is the way to avoid it if you get into that situaiton.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoThey'll just wait until you can't hold your eyes up anymore.
- SpaceManNabs 3y agoIs this a surprise to anyone? Britain is quite well known for its draconian laws on free speech and encryption.
- robswc 3y agoSeems its quite easy to get arrested for posting stuff online too. I hardly ever agree with the content but scares me to see people getting arrested for what amount to opinions.
- psychphysic 3y agoYes, and good luck if you're ever unfortunate enough to be physically harmed. Even rape victims are demanded to hand over their phone before a case can proceed. Because of course the alleged perpetrator (rightly) refuses to, delete even unrelated stuff before handing over? Case dropped anyways.
- TeaDude 3y agoImplying the police actually turn up? Remember that those are the "lucky" ones.
- FpUser 3y agoWonder if at some point all those inconvenient people would simply start falling out of the windows.
- abridgett 3y agoIt's even worse - under RIP act not only can you be "forced" to reveal any passwords: - the onus is on _you_ to "prove" that you don't know it or have forgotten it - you can be told not to reveal that you've told them the password Anyone administering systems might want to think about this, governments aren't known for good security.
- Our_Benefactors 3y ago> you can be told not to reveal that you've told them the password Come again? I don’t catch the meaning of this.
- CaliforniaKarl 3y agoabridgett didn't check after posting, and so didn't catch some weird formatting. They are making two separate points: - the onus is on _you_ to "prove" that you don't know it or have forgotten it - you can be told not to reveal that you've told them the password
- TulliusCicero 3y agoBut...how would you prove you've forgotten something?
- fuzzybear3965 3y agoIf you figure that out then let me know. Seems impossible to me. Maybe when brain scanning technology advances they'll be able to know what you're thinking.
- tejohnso 3y agoYou could be instructed not to disclose that you've given them the password. So for example, you can be instructed not to tell your accomplices that their security is now compromised because every secret you had is no longer secret.
- 3y ago
- 1659447091 3y agoCouldn't you have a max attempt lockout set pretty low and keep giving a slightly wrong variation? I mean if you dont remember, you don't remember Both my laptops and phone I need to be the one actually typing or inputting the code, I know them through muscle memory and get tripped up those few times my laptop ask for my iphone pass code, as an example
- CaliforniaKarl 3y agoAccording to https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Schedule-7-Code-of-Practice-July-2022-accessible.pdf https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/wp-content/uploads/20... point 59, it's legal for UK authorities to get information from electronic devices, and the device owner must unlock the device for the authorities. So, in the context of this UK-focused article, you're giving people advice on how to evade a search that, in the UK, is legal. Instead, I would suggest advocating for UK people and businesses to change the law.
- zarzavat 3y agoThere’s no way the law will be changed. Both major parties support it and have done for decades. Fear and being tough wins votes, and even if it didn’t, what’s the point of being in power if you can’t jail a few dissidents? The only thing that politicians are afraid of is the media, and British people are sheep who follow the prevailing media narrative. If you want to change the law in Britain: buy a newspaper publisher.
- 1827162 3y agoYes, the Murdoch owned newspapers use moral panic to get these draconian laws passed. And it's been going on for decades. That is how our civil liberties are destroyed here in the UK. It's an almost symbiotic relationship with the government.
- 1659447091 3y agoIt was more of a question I was curious about, than advice. I see how it could be read as advice. It made think of the ~4 days I was in bed with covid I didn't use my phone at all and the first time I did I kept getting the passcode wrong. Once it got to a high enough number I started to worry I was about to unintentionally erase my phone. That made me think if I were in that position to hand over or unlock a device, I could imagine the stress of the situation causing errors or even wiping the device. I imagine would be hard to prove intent but probably more difficult to prove it was unintentional as well
- helaoban 3y agoTotally totally insane. A revolution is coming, and it will be bloody.
- stuaxo 3y agoUnlikely in the UK.
- Animatronio 3y agoYes, but the police are working hard to prevent it.
- barnabee 3y agoIf only.
- Duwensatzaj 3y agoIs that why billionaires are pushing millions into civilian disarmament aka “gun control”?
- jojobas 3y agoGood luck, their cops confiscate pencils longer than 15cm as weapons, let alone butter knives.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoSupposedly, the Met is working on "a few hundred bad apples" this year as a top initiative.
- barrysteve 3y agoMeanwhile motorcycles are stolen in broad daylight and the post code is drenched in marijuana smoke in East London. Power over the people, including letting them sink into poverty and crime.
- eynsham 3y agoEr hardly anybody in Britain cares, as much as I am outraged personally.
- antibasilisk 3y agoWhat happens when people stop caring about being arrested? Prison is just a room after all.
- ornel 3y agoAccording to this tweet[0] citing a (locked) article, the arrested publisher was asked by police "Do you support president Macron? Have you participated in the recent demonstrations in France? What books will soon be published by La Fabrique?". Scary stuff [0] https://twitter.com/Mathieu2jean/status/1648394577449984014 https://twitter.com/Mathieu2jean/status/1648394577449984014
- barnabee 3y agoShameful. I cannot fathom how anyone in government or the police believes this (whatever they asked him, whatever they were told) is anywhere close to ok.
- stametseater 3y ago> I cannot fathom how anyone in government or the police believes this (whatever they asked him, whatever they were told) is anywhere close to ok. Something along the lines of: It's okay when I do it, because my motives are pure, my cause is just. The ends justify the means. With this sort of mentality, people have committed mass murder and earnestly believed they were the good guys. Millions upon millions have been murdered by people who were utterly convinced they were on the right side of history. Compared to that, police officers convincing themselves that it's okay to violate the civil rights of a publisher is child's play.
- 1letterunixname 3y agoThe proper personal data hygiene tips are: 0. Never take your primary personal or work cell phone to any demonstration 1. Cover your face, if you can, or wear anti-facial recognition makeup 2. Do not use social media from primary personal devices 3. Anyone intent on trying to join the cause is a cop. Until proven otherwise, anyone you meet is a cop 4. The standard response to any official questions in the future is to deny all allegations, keep quiet, and ask for a lawyer
- makeitdouble 3y agoThe kicker being, there is actually a 6th critical tip: 5. record your interactions with anyone around you, specially cops The number 0 point (not bringing your cell phone) makes it pretty difficult, so you need an everyday phone, and a dedicated "demonstration" phone.
- game_the0ry 3y agoThis is a sign that governments and, by extension, people in power are very fragile and very scared. Like an animal backed into a corner, they're lashing out violently and defensively, bc they are afraid that accountability is coming. There will certainly be more of this type of behavior, even in the US, and the rest of the world is about to realize why the US has the kind of constitution that it does.
- j_crick 3y agoNo accountability is coming, and they are certainly not afraid, after all it’s their monopoly on power and not yours. Dogs keep pushing your boundaries until you resist, so do other people, and any government machine is no different. They are not fragile at all. They do it simply because they can and also for the reason that the accountability is nowhere near. If you can impose more control on the population that won’t resist it while being on their payroll, then, after all, why not?
- kmlx 3y agodid the french government put that guy on a terrorist list somewhere or what? also, the refusal to share passcodes and subsequent arrest is more common across the world then one would expect: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law in countries such as France, Australia, UK, Ireland, India, South Africa it’s pretty clear: refuse to give password > fine and/or jail. in other countries such as the US, Netherlands, Spain, New Zealand, Germany, Finland things are more grey. most have a version of the “self-incrimination”, but they’ll just go around the suspect in order to get the data, or get the data and try their luck at trial. and from what i’ve experienced first hand, the few arab countries i’ve visited will straight up assume you’ve got something to hide if you don’t unlock everything you’ve got on you.
- robocat 3y ago> the few arab countries i’ve visited I would expect citizens of Arab countries are treated very differently from visitors.
- zarzavat 3y agoIn which direction? Some countries are more suspicious of outsiders and give their citizens an easier time. Other countries are more fearful of the threat within and couldn’t care less what some random tourist is doing.
- robocat 3y agoMost Arab countries have a lot of immigrant labour (e.g. UAE 90%), and if you are on the receiving end of their legal system I can’t see why they would treat you much better than say a poor immigrant. Even if white, I am not sure you would get any privilege points, and instead it might work against you (think English chavs or German dicks in Majorca). In most countries I have visited, visitors get away with a lot, because they want tourists, and because the tourists are relatively wealthy. In the UAE you are relatively poor compared to the citizens. Relevant in New Zealand a few years ago: https://google.com/search?q=british%20gypsies%20%22new%20zealand%22%20%22destruction%20across%22%20%2Dopera https://google.com/search?q=british%20gypsies%20%22new%20zea...
- atleastoptimal 3y agoCivil law moment
- itg 3y agoI would really like to see an implementation where entering different passcodes unlocks different profiles on your phone. For example, your real phone profile data is behind one passcode, and then you can unlock a decoy phone profile when entering a different passcode.
- anonzzzies 3y agoYep 1234 for my real profile, 4321 for my cat pictures profile.
- zahma 3y agoCertainly puts the French government and Foreign Ministry in a curious spot. Were they the ones to ask Britain to intervene? What is a publisher doing on a counterterrorism watchlist? Are we to assume the worst that Britain is impinging on freedom of speech or just merely abusing a statute like the US and the Patriot Act? I can see it working well politically for Macron to call for his release as a demonstration of civility and liberal virtue. However, before he swoops in, I suspect there is more to the story.
- psychphysic 3y agoThe UK has never really had much in the way of clear civil liberties. And there is a clear pattern now of demanding unfetted access to electronic equipment from victim, alleged perpetrators and anyone they want. But why is the UK suddenly overzealously engaging with any EU process it can? It's insecurity given Brexit. Importantly France could have nabbed him on exit or entry. Or requested extradition it did not.
- AraceliHarker 3y agoThe protest in France against Macron's raising of the retirement age was a principled act of dissent, and there is no evidence that participating in it suggests any plans for terrorism on British soil. Therefore, it is a violation of those principles for the British police to ask a French woman to show them the contents of her phone or computer simply because she attended the protest.
- jeffrallen 3y agoI've always felt nervous travelling through the UK, as it always seemed to me to be a place where freedoms are still unsecured, and somehow at the whims of the king (though now the king is replaced by a not-very-representative democracy). I hope this continues to erode the standing of the UK as a travel destination.
- JadedEngineer 3y agoIt's sad to see the UK as the non-EU, police state that it is today. Just 15 years ago it felt really free. I spent half of my 20s there and have great memories, but it's really gone downhill since then.
- wcoenen 3y agoThe news is always going to look worse than personal experience because of the selection effect: the worst events make the news. If you look at the news from 15 years ago, it didn't look any better: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/aug/18/met-police-stop-search-children https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/aug/18/met-police-...
- oigursh 3y agoWhat if the hardware token isn't where you left it?
- bill38 3y agoI'm wondering if there are similars laws in Germany ? Can you be required to provide password for your mobile phone or computer by German police ? I had the impression that they were more protective of personal informations in Germany but maybe I'm wrong.
- bierjunge 3y agoDisclaimer: IANAL In German law you don't have to assist law enforcement in building a case against you, so you don't need to provide passwords or say anything. But you can be forced to unlock your device via biometrics (fingerprint, faceID, etc.). I'm not sure how it works, when law enforcement calls you as witness. The law changed a few years back, so you are required to assist them, but I'm not sure to which extent.
- grumpymouse 3y agoSearching a phone is not fundamentally different to searching a home or searching a diary. The key difference is that encryption makes it impossible for the police to force their way in (as they would with a physical lock). We can then choose to either make it illegal not to let the police in, or give basically anybody a ‘one weird trick’ to prevent their phone or computer being searched.