8 ms·

Surviving Burnout (2015)

311 points by luu 4y ago

buggy6257 4y ago
A harrowing tale and I'm thankful the author made it through alright, but I have to fundamentally disagree with one possible takeaway from this: Her solution to burnout was to _start her own business_?? I'm glad this worked out for her in the end, but holy shit this would be the literal last possible thing I (or I hope many others) would consider as a solution to burnout. That's a _fast track_ to burnout.
- molsongolden 4y ago
  Maybe. Starting a business does involve the classic “now you have all of your customers as bosses instead of just one boss” but it also unlocks much more autonomy and frees you from the loss of agency that the author felt in their corporate role.
  - theteapot 4y ago
    Cool, I have zero bosses at my business!
- blitz_skull 4y ago
  Yeah, I’d say it depends on why you burn out. Some folks burn out from caring too much with too little input over the outcome. Maslow’s hierarchy and all that jazz would indicate starting a business might be a reasonable alternative. I know for myself I’ve been in business for a couple of years with a full-time job and I love my business infinitely more than I could ever care about someone else’s. Once it grows to the point of sustaining my family, I’ll have “made it” by my own estimate. But I do agree. It’s certainly not a cure-all, and largely depends on your personality and the unique reason you burned out.
- zztop44 4y ago
  Depends on the business. Some are definitely an extreme version of “caring about the results of our actions but having no meaningful control over those outcomes” but some are very different.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- xyst 4y ago
  this "harrowing tale" was written in 2015 with a 2013-2014 backdrop, so it was a much different landscape back then. Starting your own business was much easier back then (still hard af) but the VC money was flowing and anything in the mobile space was mooning. Would be interesting to see if the author's opinion has changed today.
- mongol 4y ago
  To me it helped. Granted, I had some economic security beforehand but it helped a lot with my depressive mood.
- mizzao 4y ago
  Yep. Burnt out (at least) twice while building my own startup. This raised some alarm bells for me too. But, maybe the author just needed a change of scene...
deleted 4y ago
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bruce511 4y ago
>> caring about the results of our actions but having no meaningful control over those outcomes This really dies sum it up in a useful generic way. Ultimately the balance of this sentence will differ from context to context, but the equation ultimately has to balance. Put another way, if you care a lot, but have no agency, then ultimately you will be frustrated. If you care a lot, but have no resources, then again, you get frustrated. Burnout is just the moment whe you stop fruitlessly caring. But you -want- to care (about something) so not-caring leads to depression. Matching your care to resources available is a good start. Make sure you care about something that can be materially affected by your resources. Feeling under-resourced is a sign that those allocating the resources have different goals to you. If your care exceeds your agency in resources product direction, code quality, then you can choose to care less, (find something else to care about), align your caring to match those who do have agency, or move on. Starting your own business gives you agency, so you're free to allocate resources as you choose. However you still need to aquire those resources (which in turn can change what you care about.) Starting and running your own business is enormously freeing - it gives you complete agency. But its also HARD. People don't pay you for what -you- care about, they pay you for what -they- care about. Its very hard to find customers who appreciate your priorities, and it's also hard to adjust your priorities (aka what you care -about-) to match theirs. But if you get it right, it's amazing.
- brailsafe 4y ago
  Very well-articulated. I finally felt like I was bouncing back when I just accepted not giving a fuck and doing the absolute minimum to fulfill whatever the goals seem to be of whoever's deciding on them. Do they care about rendering performance? No? Well then I'm sure as hell not goimg to lose sleep over it, and if it seems actively harmful to customers *that I've met* then it's just a place to leave. There's always a budget, there's always better quality, but if you're the one paying for it in time and energy, and you don't really have a stake in the outcome, the correct answer is "fuck it". Do not care about transactional work more than you need to within the scope that's set forth.
  - bruce511 4y ago
notimetorelax 4y ago
Does anyone have an advice for those who stay employed by a megacorp? I’m on a vacation this week and have just realized that I was effectively in isolation outside of my work.
- fatherzine 4y ago
  Engage in regular social activities. Take beginner classes, to gain some confidence and build a small social group. Plenty of 4-8 weeks series to choose from. Then take higher level classes, too. Plenty online resources (meetup, fb groups, .org website) to get you going. * Team sports. Soccer, volleyball, ultimate frisbee, basketball, etc. There is a pickup game somewhere in your city every day/week. * Outdoors. Group hike, backpacking, cross-country skiing, sailing. E.g. mountaineers.org in PNW, surely there are similar orgs all over. * Partner dance. You don't need a dedicated partner, events cater to singles too. * f3nation.com / fianation.com The ultimate free outdoors workout, rain or shine. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/24/us/f3-workout-men-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/24/us/f3-workout-men-texas.h... * Running group. * Pick a church and go to Mass every Sunday morning. Hang around for coffee and Bible study too. ♡
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    Most of these are good suggestions, but I'll say from my experience, doing too many things also creates a problem because you don't gain skill at any of the activities or spend enough time in one to create deeper connections with the people involved in it. At one point in my life I was dabbling in like 30 different things and never really getting good at any of them or feeling connected with any of their local communities. I made a decision to narrow that down to rock climbing and guitar, and get really committed to those two things. The improvement in my quality of life just from that change was honestly pretty huge. Of course you need to try a bunch of stuff to find out what you like, but once you find something you're really passionate about, it's okay, beneficial even, to limit how much you try other things so you can really delve into the activity and community you're passionate about.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    Here are some less mainstream social suggestions: * Cult. People in cults are very supportive to other cult members. * Black metal band. Blast beats, tremolo picking, shrieking vocals, pick your poison. * Cult black metal band. Best of both worlds. * Mongolian throat singing group. * Artistic burping club. * Discord server with guys wearing knee long socks and speaking with voice modulators. * Trap house. Nothing solves a burnout faster than a psychonautical trip! * Bird watching club. See what them birds are up to.
solatic 4y ago
> Structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations, healthy people. It's not the author's conclusion, but this is basically my fantasy ever since watching Billions with Wendy Rhoades's character. In that show, Wendy is a performance coach working for a hedge fund whose job is to emotionally pump up the people who work for the hedge fund. The hedge fund employs her because (leaving aside the soap opera dynamics for a second) it recognizes that emotional support is both (a) necessary for fully realizing the potential of their knowledge workers (b) not something that every employee is naturally gifted at providing, neither at work for their colleagues nor in their personal lives. More companies should employ such coaches and schedule regular sessions for all their employees. If everything's great, then great. If not, it's definitely cheaper than employee churn.
- jimsimmons 4y ago
  Cynical take is that the company is performing psy-ops on its own employees. Having a psychologist as a performance coach at your workplace is kinda f-ed up if you think about the ways things can go wrong
  - dilyevsky 4y ago
    Well they did hire more “traditional” coach in later season and worked about as well as I experienced irl
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  > More companies should employ such coaches and schedule regular sessions for all their employees. If everything's great, then great. If not, it's definitely cheaper than employee churn. Actually a few companies i know do that for their executive staff just not rank and file employees like in the show. Also if we’re talking about engineers beyond very early stage imo it would have very limited utility for the company
  - yunohn 4y ago
    > imo it would have very limited utility for the company Could you expand on this?
slushh 4y ago
Why isn't there a known company with a healthy structure that is the place of recovery for burned out developers? 'we can build it together' - why is that not happening? >Structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations, healthy people. >How can any of us get better if we can’t afford to extract ourselves from the environment that caused the harm? >When you’re finally in recovery, you’ll start to be able to see what an environment that doesn’t do that to you looks like. Then we can build it together.
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  It's companies that created this problem, and I'm skeptical that a company is going to be the solution to this problem.
  - slushh 4y ago
    Companies are an abstraction. The humans behind the company define the company. How else could burned out developers organize to create a space for recovery? *edit: to mention the elephant in the room: caring without control results in self-doubt. What does it mean for humans to be 'self'?
    - LesZedCB 4y ago
      employees behind a company labor to create value, they don't necessarily define the company - the owners do. owners set the policies, hours, hire and fire to promote a particular culture (or set the rules or expectations to). this power imbalance between employer and employee is exactly where the burnout tends to happen.
    - kerkeslager 4y ago
      > How else could burned out developers organize to create a space for recovery? There are thousands of ways to organize people, from TAZ's[1] to 12-step programs[2] to Kibbutzim[3]. A company as it's done in the modern US is an oligarchy in which leadership threatens the underlings with withholding the means of meeting their basic needs if they don't meet demands. It's fundamentally inherently stressful to be an underling in such an organization, because you don't have freedom or security. Your can say, "what if we make the oligarchs kinder" but that's not a real option: if kind people are starting an organization from scratch they don't set themselves up as oligarchs. There is that company that came up on HN a few weeks back where everyone was paid the same, but they made no pretense that if that model becomes unsustainable they'll abandon it. And sure, you can fundamentally change the structure to make it more equitable, but at that point it's different enough from a company in the normal sense of the word, that I don't think I'd call it a company, even if it technically files articles of incorporation. [1] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-temporary-autonomous-zone-ontological-anarchy-poetic-terrorism https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-... [2] https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/smf-187_en%201021.pdf https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/smf-187_en... [3] https://www.jewishagency.org/what-exactly-is-a-kibbutz/ https://www.jewishagency.org/what-exactly-is-a-kibbutz/
surfsvammel 4y ago
I suffered burn out about 15 years ago. If you would have asked me back then, if I was feeling stress or was nearing burn out, I would have said no, not a chance. I was feeling great. If you however would have me take one of those self assessment tests, it would show all the red flags. I guess what I am trying to say is this: don’t necessarily trust your own assessment of the situation. Keep your eyes out for the warning signals.
- stevezsa8 4y ago
  How was your recovery from burnout? When I see someone who seems stressed or overworked... I try to remind them that recovering might be easier before they get fully overwhelmed.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Well, I can say without the hypothetical. A while ago, when I had the problem, it took me a while to accept the results of the self-assessment tests, and I only really believed on them after treatment.
mock-possum 4y ago
I keep reading about what burnout is, and what to do about it, and it’s striking how carried different people’s experiences with it, and what they think causes it, and what they’re doing about it, and whether that’s working or not.
- simonhfrost 4y ago
  IMO because at its core, it's more about the absence of feeling and emotion rather than the excess of something. It's hard to identify and quantify
slagorfotrest 4y ago
Throwaway Ive been on leave from work due to severe burnout and even just reading this caused me to feel panic. It's this weird feeling where the back of my throat feels like it's closing, my head begins throbbing and my heart races. I know how seriously burnout can affect your life and I'm really glad the author found a way out. We need better options for dealing with burnout because having medical insurance tied to work is obviously suboptimal.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  > because having medical insurance tied to work is obviously suboptimal. That is a solved problem in many countries. When the US grows up from its individual first, frontier moxie, pissing context it could have it too.
  - tilne 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - GrigoriyMikh 4y ago
    > That is a solved problem in many countries. No, it's not. Especially for cases, when the worker is a migrant from another country. I spent 3+ years of my life working in the country, paying huge taxes and huge healthcare insurance fee(which depends on your salary). And now i'm on the verge when i either work or leave to my home country(with a lots of problems). Despite contributing hugely to this country. Concepts of countries and borders in itself is unfair to majority of people, who happened to be born in shitholes. Yet westerners just love to exploit these people to death, holding the carrot on the stick in front of their weary faces.
  - drdec 4y ago
    > When the US grows up from its individual first, frontier moxie, pissing context it could have it too. IMHO, this is not what is wrong with the system in the US. The problem is that the consumer of healthcare is doubly removed from the price. First by the insurance company using the doctors. Second by one's workplace paying for the insurance. Is it any wonder that prices keep going up under such a scheme?
reddoormat 4y ago
Throwaway account. I work at an early stage startup which I joined on the day one about two years ago. I don’t want to get into too much details but couple months ago we did a pivot, threw away most of the old product and now pretending the new offering is complete (it is the opposite). I was onboard with the new vision for the company but couple months ago I started noticing something isn’t right. I felt anxious, tired, frustrated yet I desperately wanted myself to be that cliche enthusiastic startup dude. I’m no longer in my early 20s (experienced burnout before as well as two major depression episodes) so started reflecting and looking into the causes. The pivot and the product debt it caused made me do an incredible amount of production debugging and interrupted ad-hoc work for customers we tried to impress. It got so bad I rarely remember the things I worked on the day before. Meanwhile, the product scope keeps expanding and we haven’t even nailed the basics. Then SVB happened and my guess is that leadership started receiving more heat from the investors. Shit rolls downhill so now CTO only wants to hear about solutions, not problems. I’ve had it. I gave all energy and skills I had to this company. Now I’m just hitting my head against the wall. I need a break and possibly a new employer. Burnout comes in all shapes and sizes because we are all different. I escape into physical activities and cooking, but mostly try to distance myself emotionally from work. I wish the best of luck to all of you who are going through a difficult time. Wish me luck as well.
- papito 4y ago
  My advice - save walk-away money when you are young. It's incredibly satisfying to slam the door and walk away from an abusive work environment full of incompetents. We take a lot of abuse in our 20s because we are still learning what a functional and what a dysfunctional work place is. You can learn a ton from both, but at some point, once you realize what work should be, give yourself the ability to move, or you will be locked in a cycle of misery.
  - deleted 4y ago
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- regulation_d 4y ago
  I've been in a similar situation. My advice is to make sure you budget in recovery time. I've had burnout that took 2 weeks to recover from, and I've have burnout that took 2 months to recover from. Just make sure you don't take on more "burnout debt" than you'll be able to repay before having to start your next thing.
vrglvrglvrgl 4y ago
[dead]
karthie 4y ago
thanks is the right article i need to read now for my current phase towards burn out. Sorry for the rant , From my early days had developed a code in myself "do not care about employer, but care about your work". Recent days the second part of my code "care about your work" am questioning this greatly.Although i strive to provide the highest quality of work output the ranks above me replaces the work with something comfortable which they prefer, after i move on to another parts. This really frustrate me ,also questions my code "care about your work". The part in blog "care about the results of our actions but with no control over outcomes" helped me , if i do not have control over the outcome is not a point to stress about it.I should focus on work rather than the outcome from my work.
pvsukale3 4y ago
I am in my mid 20s. I have been burned out in the past. One thing I want to reiterate on is you should be able to afford a sabbatical when it is desperately needed. A few months at least without all of your finances going down. If this is not the case with you, it is best in interest to take out some money and put towards that. That sabbatical gives you some breathing space for you in life. It is worth saving some money and avoiding some luxury expenses.
MrDresden 4y ago
I have recently progressed out of a burnout state, which started just before covid hit and continued until early this year. I was lucky enough to be able to take all of last year off from work to focus on my mental and physical health. It is probably dependant on people (and ofcourse their situation), but when I see someone talking about overcoming burnout by taking a month off I can't help wonder if they are diluting themselves into believing that everything is now fine, or if it was truly burnout to begin with. If possible, make sure you give yourself enough time to deal with burnout. There is no shame in needing to take extended time away. Your health is more important than a career.
- yxhuvud 4y ago
  Yeah. I'd classify a month as vacation. I was out of commission for three quarters when it happened to me and I'm not certain that was enough.
- avnfish 4y ago
  My timelines are basically the same as yours, which is reassuring because often articles talk about timelines that are measured in months rather than years
- comprev 4y ago
  Unfortunately money doesn't grow on trees and working in high paying industries - like tech - can warp your sense of reality. The vast majority of people cannot afford to take such extended period of time off simply due to financial barriers. Wondering if people are _actually_ burnt out simply because they have access to much less money than you is a rather arrogant viewpoint. Poor people get sick too.
  - MrDresden 4y ago
    I agree with everything you wrote. However you misunderstood where I was coming from. I point out I was lucky enough to be able to take time off to focus on my health, and hint that that is sadly not something everyone can do. I was able to do this not because of being employed in a high paying tech job, but because of strong union negotiated benefits. I live in a European country with a sane perspective on work life balance and a strong social safety net. I will also add that what was written questioned the public statements of individuals that write about dealing with burnout in a single month, not that the very probable situation where individuals have burnout and only have the ability to take a single month off exist.
lannisterstark 4y ago
I've been burnt out since Christmas. It has been five months. It was so bad that I started seeing a counselor purely because of my job. The only good portion of my job is that the work is extremely light (healthcare and govt contracting) so I get a lot of time to myself. Most of my good team and mentors have left in the past year and teh new execs are micromanaging fkers who'd rather have Mandatory fun meetings and have our cameras on during morning 0800 scrums because why not? "It builds teamwork!" ...I've resigned myself to looking for another job at this point.
throw888777 4y ago
Here's my advice based on my personal experience with burnout. It's all easier said than done, I'm afraid. 1) People are part of the problem. You solve problems for customers with technical solutions, but your solutions should take into account people in the company. e.g. "how do I solve problem X with a manager that won't listen?" Other people are not a mysterious outside factor, they are a piece of the puzzle that needs to be put together. 2) Ignore your reputation. Do not base your self-worth on the opinion of others. You want to do good work, of course, but often your idea of good work is not what is wanted by the company. They want features, not pretty code. They are often too short-sighted to see the problems they are creating for themselves with this attitude. You must come to accept this. 3) You don't own your work. You must be mercenary. You are paid for your skills but the output is not yours. You will naturally have a sense of ownership over the the work you do. You will want to protect it because your sense of self-worth is linked to the quality of your work. Sever this link. 4) You don't own the company's problems. You must be mercenary. Companies are dysfunctional. They will be short-sighted. They will make mistakes you have seen a thousand times before and the end will be completely predictable. Give your advice, watch it get ignored, get paid, and move on. 5) Find something more important to care about than some stupid tech product. P.S. It's not going to make the world a better place. Quite the opposite if you look at previous evidence.
- regulation_d 4y ago
  I'm sure most of us have worked for shit companies that have taken advantage of us. In those cases, I think your points can be helpful. But I'd also suggest that it's possible to find companies that align with your values, both around work/life balance and around the way the work gets done. That's certainly a skill that I've had to work to develop. And I've had some major misses along the way. But it's probably also the most important skill I've developed. Owning your company's problems, at least a subset of them, is that fastest (only?) way to move up in a company. If you want to climb the ladder at all, you'll have to own some problems. The key is to do that for a company that recognizes and rewards that ownership. And as soon as they don't, then you become the merc and find a new thing.
  - ornornor 4y ago
chriscjcj 4y ago
I find this cartoon on the topic to be depressingly on point: https://i.imgur.com/lemmJRS.jpg https://i.imgur.com/lemmJRS.jpg
binbag 4y ago
Thanks for the post. On reading it I couldn't help but wonder if burnout might follow you to running your own company. From personal experience, it can be intensely bad for mental health after the initial excitement turns into endless hard grind to survive, grow, keep the support of investors, etc.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
> burnout happens when we become locked in a cycle of caring about the results of our actions but having no meaningful control over those outcomes. I've never heard it put this way, but that really resonates. Nowadays, I work harder and longer -for free- than I ever did, when paid. I don't feel even slightly burned out. If I feel myself starting to get vexed with a problem, I take a break, watch some TV, play a video game, or just take a nap. But I get more done, every day, than I ever have before. Much higher Quality, as well. I've already made two releases, this morning.
throwaway98797 4y ago
try hate as antidote to burnout hate leads to anger anger leads to violence critical step turn violent impulses into physical activity (like running, lifting, combat sports) just a thought
gavi 4y ago
Audrey's experience with burnout is unfortunately all too common in the tech industry. It's important to recognize that burnout is a structural issue, built on individualism and meritocracy. As Audrey suggests, structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations can lead to healthier individuals. Support and recovery funds should be available to those affected by burnout. It's time for the tech industry to prioritize the well-being of its employees and work towards creating an environment that doesn't lead to burnout.
mrleinad 4y ago
>> creating space to recover from burnout in one area of my life, while coasting in others, then rotating until I finally had the mental and emotional space to plan my full escape This has been my experience as well. But I started through an easier path, by working out and improving my health.
ouid 4y ago
I dont think this is the correct characterization of burnout. Maybe burnout occurs on the conditions listed, but not all burnout is caused by it. Burnout is just when you run out of burn. It's like getting sleepy. You run out of the thing keeping you from being sleepy. You gotta get more stuff to burn if you wanna burn it.

311 points by luu 4y ago

A harrowing tale and I'm thankful the author made it through alright, but I have to fundamentally disagree with one possible takeaway from this: Her solution to burnout was to _start her own business_?? I'm glad this worked out for her in the end, but holy shit this would be the literal last possible thing I (or I hope many others) would consider as a solution to burnout. That's a _fast track_ to burnout.

molsongolden 4y ago
Maybe. Starting a business does involve the classic “now you have all of your customers as bosses instead of just one boss” but it also unlocks much more autonomy and frees you from the loss of agency that the author felt in their corporate role.
- theteapot 4y ago
  Cool, I have zero bosses at my business!
blitz_skull 4y ago
Yeah, I’d say it depends on why you burn out. Some folks burn out from caring too much with too little input over the outcome. Maslow’s hierarchy and all that jazz would indicate starting a business might be a reasonable alternative. I know for myself I’ve been in business for a couple of years with a full-time job and I love my business infinitely more than I could ever care about someone else’s. Once it grows to the point of sustaining my family, I’ll have “made it” by my own estimate. But I do agree. It’s certainly not a cure-all, and largely depends on your personality and the unique reason you burned out.
zztop44 4y ago
Depends on the business. Some are definitely an extreme version of “caring about the results of our actions but having no meaningful control over those outcomes” but some are very different.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
xyst 4y ago
this "harrowing tale" was written in 2015 with a 2013-2014 backdrop, so it was a much different landscape back then. Starting your own business was much easier back then (still hard af) but the VC money was flowing and anything in the mobile space was mooning. Would be interesting to see if the author's opinion has changed today.
mongol 4y ago
To me it helped. Granted, I had some economic security beforehand but it helped a lot with my depressive mood.
mizzao 4y ago
Yep. Burnt out (at least) twice while building my own startup. This raised some alarm bells for me too. But, maybe the author just needed a change of scene...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bruce511 4y ago

>> caring about the results of our actions but having no meaningful control over those outcomes This really dies sum it up in a useful generic way. Ultimately the balance of this sentence will differ from context to context, but the equation ultimately has to balance. Put another way, if you care a lot, but have no agency, then ultimately you will be frustrated. If you care a lot, but have no resources, then again, you get frustrated. Burnout is just the moment whe you stop fruitlessly caring. But you -want- to care (about something) so not-caring leads to depression. Matching your care to resources available is a good start. Make sure you care about something that can be materially affected by your resources. Feeling under-resourced is a sign that those allocating the resources have different goals to you. If your care exceeds your agency in resources product direction, code quality, then you can choose to care less, (find something else to care about), align your caring to match those who do have agency, or move on. Starting your own business gives you agency, so you're free to allocate resources as you choose. However you still need to aquire those resources (which in turn can change what you care about.) Starting and running your own business is enormously freeing - it gives you complete agency. But its also HARD. People don't pay you for what -you- care about, they pay you for what -they- care about. Its very hard to find customers who appreciate your priorities, and it's also hard to adjust your priorities (aka what you care -about-) to match theirs. But if you get it right, it's amazing.

brailsafe 4y ago
Very well-articulated. I finally felt like I was bouncing back when I just accepted not giving a fuck and doing the absolute minimum to fulfill whatever the goals seem to be of whoever's deciding on them. Do they care about rendering performance? No? Well then I'm sure as hell not goimg to lose sleep over it, and if it seems actively harmful to customers *that I've met* then it's just a place to leave. There's always a budget, there's always better quality, but if you're the one paying for it in time and energy, and you don't really have a stake in the outcome, the correct answer is "fuck it". Do not care about transactional work more than you need to within the scope that's set forth.
- bruce511 4y ago

notimetorelax 4y ago

Does anyone have an advice for those who stay employed by a megacorp? I’m on a vacation this week and have just realized that I was effectively in isolation outside of my work.

fatherzine 4y ago
Engage in regular social activities. Take beginner classes, to gain some confidence and build a small social group. Plenty of 4-8 weeks series to choose from. Then take higher level classes, too. Plenty online resources (meetup, fb groups, .org website) to get you going. * Team sports. Soccer, volleyball, ultimate frisbee, basketball, etc. There is a pickup game somewhere in your city every day/week. * Outdoors. Group hike, backpacking, cross-country skiing, sailing. E.g. mountaineers.org in PNW, surely there are similar orgs all over. * Partner dance. You don't need a dedicated partner, events cater to singles too. * f3nation.com / fianation.com The ultimate free outdoors workout, rain or shine. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/24/us/f3-workout-men-texas.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/24/us/f3-workout-men-texas.h... * Running group. * Pick a church and go to Mass every Sunday morning. Hang around for coffee and Bible study too. ♡
- kerkeslager 4y ago
  Most of these are good suggestions, but I'll say from my experience, doing too many things also creates a problem because you don't gain skill at any of the activities or spend enough time in one to create deeper connections with the people involved in it. At one point in my life I was dabbling in like 30 different things and never really getting good at any of them or feeling connected with any of their local communities. I made a decision to narrow that down to rock climbing and guitar, and get really committed to those two things. The improvement in my quality of life just from that change was honestly pretty huge. Of course you need to try a bunch of stuff to find out what you like, but once you find something you're really passionate about, it's okay, beneficial even, to limit how much you try other things so you can really delve into the activity and community you're passionate about.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  Here are some less mainstream social suggestions: * Cult. People in cults are very supportive to other cult members. * Black metal band. Blast beats, tremolo picking, shrieking vocals, pick your poison. * Cult black metal band. Best of both worlds. * Mongolian throat singing group. * Artistic burping club. * Discord server with guys wearing knee long socks and speaking with voice modulators. * Trap house. Nothing solves a burnout faster than a psychonautical trip! * Bird watching club. See what them birds are up to.

solatic 4y ago

> Structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations, healthy people. It's not the author's conclusion, but this is basically my fantasy ever since watching Billions with Wendy Rhoades's character. In that show, Wendy is a performance coach working for a hedge fund whose job is to emotionally pump up the people who work for the hedge fund. The hedge fund employs her because (leaving aside the soap opera dynamics for a second) it recognizes that emotional support is both (a) necessary for fully realizing the potential of their knowledge workers (b) not something that every employee is naturally gifted at providing, neither at work for their colleagues nor in their personal lives. More companies should employ such coaches and schedule regular sessions for all their employees. If everything's great, then great. If not, it's definitely cheaper than employee churn.

jimsimmons 4y ago
Cynical take is that the company is performing psy-ops on its own employees. Having a psychologist as a performance coach at your workplace is kinda f-ed up if you think about the ways things can go wrong
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  Well they did hire more “traditional” coach in later season and worked about as well as I experienced irl
dilyevsky 4y ago
> More companies should employ such coaches and schedule regular sessions for all their employees. If everything's great, then great. If not, it's definitely cheaper than employee churn. Actually a few companies i know do that for their executive staff just not rank and file employees like in the show. Also if we’re talking about engineers beyond very early stage imo it would have very limited utility for the company
- yunohn 4y ago
  > imo it would have very limited utility for the company Could you expand on this?

slushh 4y ago

Why isn't there a known company with a healthy structure that is the place of recovery for burned out developers? 'we can build it together' - why is that not happening? >Structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations, healthy people. >How can any of us get better if we can’t afford to extract ourselves from the environment that caused the harm? >When you’re finally in recovery, you’ll start to be able to see what an environment that doesn’t do that to you looks like. Then we can build it together.

kerkeslager 4y ago
It's companies that created this problem, and I'm skeptical that a company is going to be the solution to this problem.
- slushh 4y ago
  Companies are an abstraction. The humans behind the company define the company. How else could burned out developers organize to create a space for recovery? *edit: to mention the elephant in the room: caring without control results in self-doubt. What does it mean for humans to be 'self'?
  - LesZedCB 4y ago
    employees behind a company labor to create value, they don't necessarily define the company - the owners do. owners set the policies, hours, hire and fire to promote a particular culture (or set the rules or expectations to). this power imbalance between employer and employee is exactly where the burnout tends to happen.
  - kerkeslager 4y ago
    > How else could burned out developers organize to create a space for recovery? There are thousands of ways to organize people, from TAZ's[1] to 12-step programs[2] to Kibbutzim[3]. A company as it's done in the modern US is an oligarchy in which leadership threatens the underlings with withholding the means of meeting their basic needs if they don't meet demands. It's fundamentally inherently stressful to be an underling in such an organization, because you don't have freedom or security. Your can say, "what if we make the oligarchs kinder" but that's not a real option: if kind people are starting an organization from scratch they don't set themselves up as oligarchs. There is that company that came up on HN a few weeks back where everyone was paid the same, but they made no pretense that if that model becomes unsustainable they'll abandon it. And sure, you can fundamentally change the structure to make it more equitable, but at that point it's different enough from a company in the normal sense of the word, that I don't think I'd call it a company, even if it technically files articles of incorporation. [1] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-temporary-autonomous-zone-ontological-anarchy-poetic-terrorism https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/hakim-bey-t-a-z-the-... [2] https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/smf-187_en%201021.pdf https://www.aa.org/sites/default/files/literature/smf-187_en... [3] https://www.jewishagency.org/what-exactly-is-a-kibbutz/ https://www.jewishagency.org/what-exactly-is-a-kibbutz/

surfsvammel 4y ago

I suffered burn out about 15 years ago. If you would have asked me back then, if I was feeling stress or was nearing burn out, I would have said no, not a chance. I was feeling great. If you however would have me take one of those self assessment tests, it would show all the red flags. I guess what I am trying to say is this: don’t necessarily trust your own assessment of the situation. Keep your eyes out for the warning signals.

stevezsa8 4y ago
How was your recovery from burnout? When I see someone who seems stressed or overworked... I try to remind them that recovering might be easier before they get fully overwhelmed.
- deleted 4y ago
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marcosdumay 4y ago
Well, I can say without the hypothetical. A while ago, when I had the problem, it took me a while to accept the results of the self-assessment tests, and I only really believed on them after treatment.

mock-possum 4y ago

I keep reading about what burnout is, and what to do about it, and it’s striking how carried different people’s experiences with it, and what they think causes it, and what they’re doing about it, and whether that’s working or not.

simonhfrost 4y ago
IMO because at its core, it's more about the absence of feeling and emotion rather than the excess of something. It's hard to identify and quantify

slagorfotrest 4y ago

Throwaway Ive been on leave from work due to severe burnout and even just reading this caused me to feel panic. It's this weird feeling where the back of my throat feels like it's closing, my head begins throbbing and my heart races. I know how seriously burnout can affect your life and I'm really glad the author found a way out. We need better options for dealing with burnout because having medical insurance tied to work is obviously suboptimal.

jimnotgym 4y ago
> because having medical insurance tied to work is obviously suboptimal. That is a solved problem in many countries. When the US grows up from its individual first, frontier moxie, pissing context it could have it too.
- tilne 4y ago
  [flagged]
- GrigoriyMikh 4y ago
  > That is a solved problem in many countries. No, it's not. Especially for cases, when the worker is a migrant from another country. I spent 3+ years of my life working in the country, paying huge taxes and huge healthcare insurance fee(which depends on your salary). And now i'm on the verge when i either work or leave to my home country(with a lots of problems). Despite contributing hugely to this country. Concepts of countries and borders in itself is unfair to majority of people, who happened to be born in shitholes. Yet westerners just love to exploit these people to death, holding the carrot on the stick in front of their weary faces.
- drdec 4y ago
  > When the US grows up from its individual first, frontier moxie, pissing context it could have it too. IMHO, this is not what is wrong with the system in the US. The problem is that the consumer of healthcare is doubly removed from the price. First by the insurance company using the doctors. Second by one's workplace paying for the insurance. Is it any wonder that prices keep going up under such a scheme?

reddoormat 4y ago

Throwaway account. I work at an early stage startup which I joined on the day one about two years ago. I don’t want to get into too much details but couple months ago we did a pivot, threw away most of the old product and now pretending the new offering is complete (it is the opposite). I was onboard with the new vision for the company but couple months ago I started noticing something isn’t right. I felt anxious, tired, frustrated yet I desperately wanted myself to be that cliche enthusiastic startup dude. I’m no longer in my early 20s (experienced burnout before as well as two major depression episodes) so started reflecting and looking into the causes. The pivot and the product debt it caused made me do an incredible amount of production debugging and interrupted ad-hoc work for customers we tried to impress. It got so bad I rarely remember the things I worked on the day before. Meanwhile, the product scope keeps expanding and we haven’t even nailed the basics. Then SVB happened and my guess is that leadership started receiving more heat from the investors. Shit rolls downhill so now CTO only wants to hear about solutions, not problems. I’ve had it. I gave all energy and skills I had to this company. Now I’m just hitting my head against the wall. I need a break and possibly a new employer. Burnout comes in all shapes and sizes because we are all different. I escape into physical activities and cooking, but mostly try to distance myself emotionally from work. I wish the best of luck to all of you who are going through a difficult time. Wish me luck as well.

papito 4y ago
My advice - save walk-away money when you are young. It's incredibly satisfying to slam the door and walk away from an abusive work environment full of incompetents. We take a lot of abuse in our 20s because we are still learning what a functional and what a dysfunctional work place is. You can learn a ton from both, but at some point, once you realize what work should be, give yourself the ability to move, or you will be locked in a cycle of misery.
- deleted 4y ago
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regulation_d 4y ago
I've been in a similar situation. My advice is to make sure you budget in recovery time. I've had burnout that took 2 weeks to recover from, and I've have burnout that took 2 months to recover from. Just make sure you don't take on more "burnout debt" than you'll be able to repay before having to start your next thing.

vrglvrglvrgl 4y ago

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karthie 4y ago

thanks is the right article i need to read now for my current phase towards burn out. Sorry for the rant , From my early days had developed a code in myself "do not care about employer, but care about your work". Recent days the second part of my code "care about your work" am questioning this greatly.Although i strive to provide the highest quality of work output the ranks above me replaces the work with something comfortable which they prefer, after i move on to another parts. This really frustrate me ,also questions my code "care about your work". The part in blog "care about the results of our actions but with no control over outcomes" helped me , if i do not have control over the outcome is not a point to stress about it.I should focus on work rather than the outcome from my work.

pvsukale3 4y ago

I am in my mid 20s. I have been burned out in the past. One thing I want to reiterate on is you should be able to afford a sabbatical when it is desperately needed. A few months at least without all of your finances going down. If this is not the case with you, it is best in interest to take out some money and put towards that. That sabbatical gives you some breathing space for you in life. It is worth saving some money and avoiding some luxury expenses.

MrDresden 4y ago

I have recently progressed out of a burnout state, which started just before covid hit and continued until early this year. I was lucky enough to be able to take all of last year off from work to focus on my mental and physical health. It is probably dependant on people (and ofcourse their situation), but when I see someone talking about overcoming burnout by taking a month off I can't help wonder if they are diluting themselves into believing that everything is now fine, or if it was truly burnout to begin with. If possible, make sure you give yourself enough time to deal with burnout. There is no shame in needing to take extended time away. Your health is more important than a career.

yxhuvud 4y ago
Yeah. I'd classify a month as vacation. I was out of commission for three quarters when it happened to me and I'm not certain that was enough.
avnfish 4y ago
My timelines are basically the same as yours, which is reassuring because often articles talk about timelines that are measured in months rather than years
comprev 4y ago
Unfortunately money doesn't grow on trees and working in high paying industries - like tech - can warp your sense of reality. The vast majority of people cannot afford to take such extended period of time off simply due to financial barriers. Wondering if people are _actually_ burnt out simply because they have access to much less money than you is a rather arrogant viewpoint. Poor people get sick too.
- MrDresden 4y ago
  I agree with everything you wrote. However you misunderstood where I was coming from. I point out I was lucky enough to be able to take time off to focus on my health, and hint that that is sadly not something everyone can do. I was able to do this not because of being employed in a high paying tech job, but because of strong union negotiated benefits. I live in a European country with a sane perspective on work life balance and a strong social safety net. I will also add that what was written questioned the public statements of individuals that write about dealing with burnout in a single month, not that the very probable situation where individuals have burnout and only have the ability to take a single month off exist.

lannisterstark 4y ago

I've been burnt out since Christmas. It has been five months. It was so bad that I started seeing a counselor purely because of my job. The only good portion of my job is that the work is extremely light (healthcare and govt contracting) so I get a lot of time to myself. Most of my good team and mentors have left in the past year and teh new execs are micromanaging fkers who'd rather have Mandatory fun meetings and have our cameras on during morning 0800 scrums because why not? "It builds teamwork!" ...I've resigned myself to looking for another job at this point.

throw888777 4y ago

Here's my advice based on my personal experience with burnout. It's all easier said than done, I'm afraid. 1) People are part of the problem. You solve problems for customers with technical solutions, but your solutions should take into account people in the company. e.g. "how do I solve problem X with a manager that won't listen?" Other people are not a mysterious outside factor, they are a piece of the puzzle that needs to be put together. 2) Ignore your reputation. Do not base your self-worth on the opinion of others. You want to do good work, of course, but often your idea of good work is not what is wanted by the company. They want features, not pretty code. They are often too short-sighted to see the problems they are creating for themselves with this attitude. You must come to accept this. 3) You don't own your work. You must be mercenary. You are paid for your skills but the output is not yours. You will naturally have a sense of ownership over the the work you do. You will want to protect it because your sense of self-worth is linked to the quality of your work. Sever this link. 4) You don't own the company's problems. You must be mercenary. Companies are dysfunctional. They will be short-sighted. They will make mistakes you have seen a thousand times before and the end will be completely predictable. Give your advice, watch it get ignored, get paid, and move on. 5) Find something more important to care about than some stupid tech product. P.S. It's not going to make the world a better place. Quite the opposite if you look at previous evidence.

regulation_d 4y ago
I'm sure most of us have worked for shit companies that have taken advantage of us. In those cases, I think your points can be helpful. But I'd also suggest that it's possible to find companies that align with your values, both around work/life balance and around the way the work gets done. That's certainly a skill that I've had to work to develop. And I've had some major misses along the way. But it's probably also the most important skill I've developed. Owning your company's problems, at least a subset of them, is that fastest (only?) way to move up in a company. If you want to climb the ladder at all, you'll have to own some problems. The key is to do that for a company that recognizes and rewards that ownership. And as soon as they don't, then you become the merc and find a new thing.
- ornornor 4y ago

chriscjcj 4y ago

I find this cartoon on the topic to be depressingly on point: https://i.imgur.com/lemmJRS.jpg https://i.imgur.com/lemmJRS.jpg

binbag 4y ago

Thanks for the post. On reading it I couldn't help but wonder if burnout might follow you to running your own company. From personal experience, it can be intensely bad for mental health after the initial excitement turns into endless hard grind to survive, grow, keep the support of investors, etc.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

> burnout happens when we become locked in a cycle of caring about the results of our actions but having no meaningful control over those outcomes. I've never heard it put this way, but that really resonates. Nowadays, I work harder and longer -for free- than I ever did, when paid. I don't feel even slightly burned out. If I feel myself starting to get vexed with a problem, I take a break, watch some TV, play a video game, or just take a nap. But I get more done, every day, than I ever have before. Much higher Quality, as well. I've already made two releases, this morning.

throwaway98797 4y ago

try hate as antidote to burnout hate leads to anger anger leads to violence critical step turn violent impulses into physical activity (like running, lifting, combat sports) just a thought

gavi 4y ago

Audrey's experience with burnout is unfortunately all too common in the tech industry. It's important to recognize that burnout is a structural issue, built on individualism and meritocracy. As Audrey suggests, structural problems require structural solutions. Healthy organizations can lead to healthier individuals. Support and recovery funds should be available to those affected by burnout. It's time for the tech industry to prioritize the well-being of its employees and work towards creating an environment that doesn't lead to burnout.

mrleinad 4y ago

>> creating space to recover from burnout in one area of my life, while coasting in others, then rotating until I finally had the mental and emotional space to plan my full escape This has been my experience as well. But I started through an easier path, by working out and improving my health.

ouid 4y ago

I dont think this is the correct characterization of burnout. Maybe burnout occurs on the conditions listed, but not all burnout is caused by it. Burnout is just when you run out of burn. It's like getting sleepy. You run out of the thing keeping you from being sleepy. You gotta get more stuff to burn if you wanna burn it.