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I am not ashamed to say that I am jealous of the Dutch. Sometimes I wonder what built the society that is powering this genuinely incredible country. Thanks fo

I am not ashamed to say that I am jealous of the Dutch. Sometimes I wonder what built the society that is powering this genuinely incredible country. Thanks for the link

pipo234 4y ago
The book is in't in Dutch, though. ;-) Incredibly well written, historically accurate (for as far I could tell) and entertaining to read. Warm recommend.
melvinmelih 4y ago
> It has been estimated that during the 17th and 18th centuries, 660,000 to 1,135,000 enslaved people in total must have been transported to the territories under control of the Dutch East India Company. I wouldn't necessarily romanticize the exploitative colonialism of European explorers.
- spyremeown 4y ago
  Even more so when the current economic prosperity of the colonizing countries is still very much derived from their past. Sadly, most people living in said countries today don't realize how set back the colonies really were due to exploitation and slavery.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    "Even more so when the current economic prosperity of the colonizing countries is still very much derived from their past." This does not pass the comparison test. Many highly prosperous European countries of today (Scandinavian countries, Northern Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Ireland) didn't have massive overseas holdings, or only for a short time. Portugal, Spain, Turkey and Russia, four huge empires that existed for centuries (one still extant) are on the poorer side of Europe. PT and ES got only moderately prosperous in the last two generations, after shedding their last colonial possessions.
    - spyremeown 4y ago
      >poorer side of Europe Which is still much, much wealthier than most of colonized nations... except for Russia, due to the extreme political decline after the fall of the USSR. >Many highly prosperous European countries of today didn't have massive overseas holdings, or only for a short time. And I never said "colonies are needed for wealth". What is your point, exactly?
      - hahaxdxd123 4y ago
        > And I never said "colonies are needed for wealth". What is your point, exactly? I think the point is that it's not this simple: "Even more so when the current economic prosperity of the colonizing countries is still very much derived from their past." Poor countries that were colonized are definitely held back by it. The colonial powers left extremely extractive institutions that focused on funneling power and profits into small groups of people. When they left, those institutions and that culture stayed. But isn't it difficult to say that Spain or Portugal's "wealth" today derives from colonial holdings years and years back? What did they extract that lasts today? In those 400 years, did they not spend most of their extracted silver and gold on things that are trivialities today (porcelain, tea, etc)? Or waste it buying arms during civil wars and dictatorships? I mean there was mass starvation during Franco's regime. It seems to me likelier that their wealth comes from the things they have in common with prosperous countries that never were colonial powers (Taiwan, South Korea, etc). Educated populace, functioning capital markets, property rights, rule of law, etc.
      - inglor_cz 4y ago
        Russia was never rich, though some Russians certainly were. In the former Soviet Union, some subjugated nations like Ukraine and the Baltics had higher standards of living that Russia proper. Whoever came back from a USSR trip commented negatively on the standard of living of ordinary Russians: already in the 1970s and the 1980s, there were shortages of everything, including food. Anecdotally, the Russo-Ukrainian war isn't the first opportunity when Russian soldiers marveled at the sight of flushing WCs; my ancestors saw the same in 1945 and 1968, on two occassions, when Russian soldiers could be met in Czechoslovak streets. In 1968, "we" hated them and pitied them at the same time; being a random Russian soldat was an unenviable position. Most colonial wealth is long spent, on luxury and wars long forgotten. There may be some left in Britain, though they went broke over the two world wars, too. Otherwise, a few massive buildings are left standing (such as the colonial archive in Sevilla, impressive - I was there as a tourist), and refuse pits of former palaces are full of expensive wine bottles from the 18th century, but most of the contemporary wealthy class owes its riches to the industrial revolution and its aftereffects. And that is why the current club of rich countries consists of a mix of former colonial powers, former non-colonial non-powers and former colonies. Places like Czechia, Poland, Ireland, Estonia, Finland, Singapore, South Korea, Israel and Taiwan were actually subjugated by stronger empires for much of their modern existence. As another commenter said, strong rule of law, relatively free trade, ability to attract qualified workforce and protection of wealth makes countries in the 21st century prosperous much more reliably than violent land grabs that may actually cost you wealth instead of making it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- beebeepka 4y ago
  I am not disputing past atrocities or still ongoing exploitation. However, reducing everything to "they exploited others for X years" strikes me as dishonest. Some are born into wealth and don't accomplish anything. With others it's the exact opposite (but harder, duh). Could be just luck but I am not convinced. Take a look our neighboring Russia just across the Black Sea. By far the biggest country in the world, and yet their society sucks. I would like to know what drives these things
mtalantikite 4y ago
There was quite a lot of genocide that it was built upon: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/10/dutch-colonial-history-indonesia-villains-victims/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/10/dutch-colonial-history-...
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Yes, there was a lot of that. Our colonial history is nothing to be proud of. But Dutch engineering prowess is something to be proud of. The whole country is essentially a giant machine and if we collectively stopped maintaining it within a surprisingly short time large chunks of it would cease to exist.
  - dekhn 4y ago
    I've told lots of people the US should get prepared to pay the dutch to build the Great Atlantic and Pacific Seawalls. We should probably get started soon...
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      A decade ago or so... it's going to get terribly interesting in the next 20 years.
- boplicity 4y ago
  Interesting that the article, subtitled "A refusal to confront colonial atrocities persists in the Netherlands," lead to you getting downvotes. Coincidence? I think not. The so-called "civilizing mission" continues to this day, with glorification of Dutch ideas and ideals, even though those ideals indeed led to mass atrocities. Such atrocities were often cited as "necessary," in order to impose "improvement" upon the victims society. This "civilizing mission" is often seen as worth it -- it includes many good ideas, after all. Even to this day, the respect for "civlizing" ideas remains, while the acknowledging of mass atrocities is often ignored, or covered up. Even worse, many of the people who committed atrocities are thought of as heroes.
  - 4y ago
SanderNL 4y ago
I’m curious. What is so incredible about it?
- jacquesm 4y ago
  That by rights this country shouldn't exist, and that if we aren't careful soon it will stop to exist.
  - jeremyw 4y ago
    Any recommended material to learn about fragility in the Dutch system? You've made a number of comments in this vein. Do you see it as apart from the cycle of the successful? Wherein we slowly relax the effort is took to make success. And then deny these efforts altogether, and create fantasies of what _really_ brought success.
    - WJW 4y ago
      I think jacquesm means that rising sea levels (due to climate change) is a particular problem for a country where much of the land is below sea level.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Yep.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      I'm writing this from ~sea level, and there are large parts of the country around me that are below sea level, some more than just a little bit, think 2 to 3 meters and in extremes more than 6. As the sea level rises the risk of storm surges increases quite a bit. We have essentially barricaded the country against the sea up to a certain point. But beyond that the country would flood much like a bathtub would and even if all those barriers are closed the rivers will pour in water from the other side. Managing all this is tricky in the short term, difficult in the mid term and quite possibly impossible in the longer term if the sea level rise is more than anticipated when these defenses were built. And you can only raise them so much, if rivers no longer flow out then you'll end up flooded anyway.
nebula8804 4y ago
Sure they have clean streets, quiet cities and pretty quaint scenery...but have you seen their toilets? They are so freakin tiny. The dutch are skew on the taller side so I don't know how they deal with this. As a 6' 2 in person I hate it. Also the food isn't anything to celebrate. Having lived in both Amsterdam and the US, I greatly prefer the US and our larger houses with proper sized toilets.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Wut? What is your beef with Dutch toilets? I’m 6’4” and I can’t say it ever bothered me. The food is ok. It’s just that Dutch people seem to be a bit more utilitarian about food consumption (something I didn’t know until leaving the Netherlands).
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    >Wut? What is your beef with Dutch toilets? I’m 6’4” and I can’t say it ever bothered me. I explained already: they are too tiny. [1]: Dutch toilet: https://i0.wp.com/noplacelikeanywhere.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/20160911_133649.jpg https://i0.wp.com/noplacelikeanywhere.com/wp-content/uploads... [2]: American toilet: https://www.amazon.com/American-Standard-211AA-104-222-Toilet-Linen/dp/B006TIEOW2?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/American-Standard-211AA-104-222-Toile... The bathrooms are typically smaller as well. It can often be claustrophobic. (Although the bathrooms in France are the worst, I once couldn't even close the door because my legs were too long) >It’s just that Dutch people seem to be a bit more utilitarian about food consumption (something I didn’t know until leaving the Netherlands). Restaurant quality seemed poor during my time living there. Bitterballen is delicious the first time, afterwards its just grease food. Other than good cheese I can't seem to point to any particular Dutch foods that really stand out.
    - lucumo 4y ago
      > I explained already: they are too tiny. Hard to say without anything for scale. They look about the same size to me. They're different models though. The standing one would be considered a bit old-fashioned here. New toilets don't touch the ground for easier cleaning of the floor. And the flush compartment will be hidden in the wall just because it looks nice.

I am not ashamed to say that I am jealous of the Dutch. Sometimes I wonder what built the society that is powering this genuinely incredible country. Thanks for the link

pipo234 4y ago

The book is in't in Dutch, though. ;-) Incredibly well written, historically accurate (for as far I could tell) and entertaining to read. Warm recommend.

melvinmelih 4y ago

> It has been estimated that during the 17th and 18th centuries, 660,000 to 1,135,000 enslaved people in total must have been transported to the territories under control of the Dutch East India Company. I wouldn't necessarily romanticize the exploitative colonialism of European explorers.

spyremeown 4y ago
Even more so when the current economic prosperity of the colonizing countries is still very much derived from their past. Sadly, most people living in said countries today don't realize how set back the colonies really were due to exploitation and slavery.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  "Even more so when the current economic prosperity of the colonizing countries is still very much derived from their past." This does not pass the comparison test. Many highly prosperous European countries of today (Scandinavian countries, Northern Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Ireland) didn't have massive overseas holdings, or only for a short time. Portugal, Spain, Turkey and Russia, four huge empires that existed for centuries (one still extant) are on the poorer side of Europe. PT and ES got only moderately prosperous in the last two generations, after shedding their last colonial possessions.
  - spyremeown 4y ago
    >poorer side of Europe Which is still much, much wealthier than most of colonized nations... except for Russia, due to the extreme political decline after the fall of the USSR. >Many highly prosperous European countries of today didn't have massive overseas holdings, or only for a short time. And I never said "colonies are needed for wealth". What is your point, exactly?
    - hahaxdxd123 4y ago
      > And I never said "colonies are needed for wealth". What is your point, exactly? I think the point is that it's not this simple: "Even more so when the current economic prosperity of the colonizing countries is still very much derived from their past." Poor countries that were colonized are definitely held back by it. The colonial powers left extremely extractive institutions that focused on funneling power and profits into small groups of people. When they left, those institutions and that culture stayed. But isn't it difficult to say that Spain or Portugal's "wealth" today derives from colonial holdings years and years back? What did they extract that lasts today? In those 400 years, did they not spend most of their extracted silver and gold on things that are trivialities today (porcelain, tea, etc)? Or waste it buying arms during civil wars and dictatorships? I mean there was mass starvation during Franco's regime. It seems to me likelier that their wealth comes from the things they have in common with prosperous countries that never were colonial powers (Taiwan, South Korea, etc). Educated populace, functioning capital markets, property rights, rule of law, etc.
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      Russia was never rich, though some Russians certainly were. In the former Soviet Union, some subjugated nations like Ukraine and the Baltics had higher standards of living that Russia proper. Whoever came back from a USSR trip commented negatively on the standard of living of ordinary Russians: already in the 1970s and the 1980s, there were shortages of everything, including food. Anecdotally, the Russo-Ukrainian war isn't the first opportunity when Russian soldiers marveled at the sight of flushing WCs; my ancestors saw the same in 1945 and 1968, on two occassions, when Russian soldiers could be met in Czechoslovak streets. In 1968, "we" hated them and pitied them at the same time; being a random Russian soldat was an unenviable position. Most colonial wealth is long spent, on luxury and wars long forgotten. There may be some left in Britain, though they went broke over the two world wars, too. Otherwise, a few massive buildings are left standing (such as the colonial archive in Sevilla, impressive - I was there as a tourist), and refuse pits of former palaces are full of expensive wine bottles from the 18th century, but most of the contemporary wealthy class owes its riches to the industrial revolution and its aftereffects. And that is why the current club of rich countries consists of a mix of former colonial powers, former non-colonial non-powers and former colonies. Places like Czechia, Poland, Ireland, Estonia, Finland, Singapore, South Korea, Israel and Taiwan were actually subjugated by stronger empires for much of their modern existence. As another commenter said, strong rule of law, relatively free trade, ability to attract qualified workforce and protection of wealth makes countries in the 21st century prosperous much more reliably than violent land grabs that may actually cost you wealth instead of making it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
beebeepka 4y ago
I am not disputing past atrocities or still ongoing exploitation. However, reducing everything to "they exploited others for X years" strikes me as dishonest. Some are born into wealth and don't accomplish anything. With others it's the exact opposite (but harder, duh). Could be just luck but I am not convinced. Take a look our neighboring Russia just across the Black Sea. By far the biggest country in the world, and yet their society sucks. I would like to know what drives these things

mtalantikite 4y ago

There was quite a lot of genocide that it was built upon: https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/10/dutch-colonial-history-indonesia-villains-victims/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/10/dutch-colonial-history-...

jacquesm 4y ago
Yes, there was a lot of that. Our colonial history is nothing to be proud of. But Dutch engineering prowess is something to be proud of. The whole country is essentially a giant machine and if we collectively stopped maintaining it within a surprisingly short time large chunks of it would cease to exist.
- dekhn 4y ago
  I've told lots of people the US should get prepared to pay the dutch to build the Great Atlantic and Pacific Seawalls. We should probably get started soon...
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    A decade ago or so... it's going to get terribly interesting in the next 20 years.
boplicity 4y ago
Interesting that the article, subtitled "A refusal to confront colonial atrocities persists in the Netherlands," lead to you getting downvotes. Coincidence? I think not. The so-called "civilizing mission" continues to this day, with glorification of Dutch ideas and ideals, even though those ideals indeed led to mass atrocities. Such atrocities were often cited as "necessary," in order to impose "improvement" upon the victims society. This "civilizing mission" is often seen as worth it -- it includes many good ideas, after all. Even to this day, the respect for "civlizing" ideas remains, while the acknowledging of mass atrocities is often ignored, or covered up. Even worse, many of the people who committed atrocities are thought of as heroes.
- 4y ago

SanderNL 4y ago

I’m curious. What is so incredible about it?

jacquesm 4y ago
That by rights this country shouldn't exist, and that if we aren't careful soon it will stop to exist.
- jeremyw 4y ago
  Any recommended material to learn about fragility in the Dutch system? You've made a number of comments in this vein. Do you see it as apart from the cycle of the successful? Wherein we slowly relax the effort is took to make success. And then deny these efforts altogether, and create fantasies of what _really_ brought success.
  - WJW 4y ago
    I think jacquesm means that rising sea levels (due to climate change) is a particular problem for a country where much of the land is below sea level.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Yep.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I'm writing this from ~sea level, and there are large parts of the country around me that are below sea level, some more than just a little bit, think 2 to 3 meters and in extremes more than 6. As the sea level rises the risk of storm surges increases quite a bit. We have essentially barricaded the country against the sea up to a certain point. But beyond that the country would flood much like a bathtub would and even if all those barriers are closed the rivers will pour in water from the other side. Managing all this is tricky in the short term, difficult in the mid term and quite possibly impossible in the longer term if the sea level rise is more than anticipated when these defenses were built. And you can only raise them so much, if rivers no longer flow out then you'll end up flooded anyway.

nebula8804 4y ago

Sure they have clean streets, quiet cities and pretty quaint scenery...but have you seen their toilets? They are so freakin tiny. The dutch are skew on the taller side so I don't know how they deal with this. As a 6' 2 in person I hate it. Also the food isn't anything to celebrate. Having lived in both Amsterdam and the US, I greatly prefer the US and our larger houses with proper sized toilets.

Aeolun 4y ago
Wut? What is your beef with Dutch toilets? I’m 6’4” and I can’t say it ever bothered me. The food is ok. It’s just that Dutch people seem to be a bit more utilitarian about food consumption (something I didn’t know until leaving the Netherlands).
- nebula8804 4y ago
  >Wut? What is your beef with Dutch toilets? I’m 6’4” and I can’t say it ever bothered me. I explained already: they are too tiny. [1]: Dutch toilet: https://i0.wp.com/noplacelikeanywhere.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/20160911_133649.jpg https://i0.wp.com/noplacelikeanywhere.com/wp-content/uploads... [2]: American toilet: https://www.amazon.com/American-Standard-211AA-104-222-Toilet-Linen/dp/B006TIEOW2?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/American-Standard-211AA-104-222-Toile... The bathrooms are typically smaller as well. It can often be claustrophobic. (Although the bathrooms in France are the worst, I once couldn't even close the door because my legs were too long) >It’s just that Dutch people seem to be a bit more utilitarian about food consumption (something I didn’t know until leaving the Netherlands). Restaurant quality seemed poor during my time living there. Bitterballen is delicious the first time, afterwards its just grease food. Other than good cheese I can't seem to point to any particular Dutch foods that really stand out.
  - lucumo 4y ago
    > I explained already: they are too tiny. Hard to say without anything for scale. They look about the same size to me. They're different models though. The standing one would be considered a bit old-fashioned here. New toilets don't touch the ground for easier cleaning of the floor. And the flush compartment will be hidden in the wall just because it looks nice.