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I know this is hyperbole, but at least in Britain's case, the fact that so many people had to choose between heating their homes or feeding their kids really is

I know this is hyperbole, but at least in Britain's case, the fact that so many people had to choose between heating their homes or feeding their kids really isn't something to celebrate. Let's not pretend this was some kind of collective decision or green victory.

nonethewiser 4y ago
In what way did people have to make this choice? I take your point I’m just not familiar with how people we’re actually affected.
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  For every percent that utility prices go up (or really: non-optional bills), A larger and larger slice of people simply cannot make it work and have to sacrifice something. There's an important point: how much of this was non-optional vs. luxury? I keep my home at 22, but if I had to, I could probably set it to 19 and tell everyone to wear a sweater in the winter. So not everyone, but definitely some slice of the population probably went from 19 to 16 or lower. In Canada this can be a serious issue. My gas bill literally doubled for the same volume compared to last winter. This can be a sudden $100-200 extra monthly expense. Luckily it's illegal to ever cut anyone off from gas in the winter... but that doesn't fix the financial catastrophe.
  - MayeulC 4y ago
    Wait, you are not wearing a sweater inside during winter? 19 is like, the temperature we set during off-peak hours, otherwise it's more like 18 (and we let it coast down during the evening). Admittedly, it's quite cold when not moving around, so I spent most of the winter with at least 3 sweaters, a hot water bottle, and a blanket (and 2 layers of pants, usually). When moving around, 17-18 is quite comfortable though, a long sleeved shirt or light sweater is usually enough.
    - 908B64B197 4y ago
      > Wait, you are not wearing a sweater inside during winter? He's Canadian. Over there electricity costs 0.044 €‎ / kWh https://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/customer-space/rates/rate-d-billing.html https://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/customer-space/rates...
      - Waterluvian 4y ago
        My monthly gas bill was $350 in January. It’s a luxury I enjoy given how pedantic my dad was about the thermostat. Also my hydro is closer to 9 cents.
- onion2k 4y ago
  The price of energy went up and the price of food went up, so people who don't have much money had to choose one or the other.
- gambiting 4y ago
  Electricity prices have literally tripled or quadrupled for some people - and for poor people the effect was even worse because the poorest groups are on prepayment meters which are on the most expensive tariffs of all. So yes, there were people for whom the choice was "well I have £5 for today, either it's going in the meter so I can put heating on for a few hours and stay warm, or I need to use it to buy food to feed my family". This isn't some theoretical edge case scenario - this was a dilemma that many British families were faced with this winter.
  - youngtaff 4y ago
    What’s worse is they still get charged the standing charge so if the meter has been empty for days, then adding credit to it may just get swallowed up by paying the standing charge due for those days
  - nonethewiser 4y ago
    Thank you for explaining.
kvdveer 4y ago
> Let's not pretend this was some kind of collective decision or green victory. It wasn't just that, but there definitely was a collective shift toward energy saving, also among those who could've afforded the high energy prices. (at least here in NL) I agree we shouldn't celebrate the decision of the poor to be energy-frugal, they had no choice in most cases. But those wo had a choice, still chose to conserve energy, often structurally. We should celebrate that for the environmental win it is.
- boomskats 4y ago
  > But those wo had a choice, still chose to conserve energy, often structurally. We should celebrate that for the environmental win it is. This is interesting. Can you point to the data on this? Do you guys run some kind of tracker study?
  - kvdveer 4y ago
    I only have anekdata, unfortunately. My observations: * I tried to find a contractor for some work on my house. Very few were available, none were available short-term. Most told me this is due to extreme demand for isolation measures. * Lead times on heat pumps rose to half a year, presumably also due to demand. * People dressed warmer. * The most common thermostat temperature for people around me temperature dropped from 20c to 19c. * "How to isolate" was a very common topic in most Dutch media, far more than in previous winters.
- dunslandsboo 4y ago
  It was a fun game for the well off green voters indeed. LARPing that they are saving the planet by reacting to a higher energy bill. Tracking it all with their fun home assistant gadgets and showing off at work how much they are saving. It had no real impact on them, and most would go fly around the world to celebrate the holiday as soon as they had the chance. For the working class however, the people really affected by the green policies, it was a matter of choosing between heat and groceries. For the environment it doesn't matter one bit as China is using more energy than the whole western world combined. It's telling that only the people that can still easily pay the bills see this as something to be celebrated.
gambiting 4y ago
Well, in a weird way it does make sense though. As a different example, if you want to cut fuel consumption nationally just double the prices - you will see how much less fuel people will use because they will just drive less. Will it impact poor people disproportionately? Ensure that some people won't be able to go shopping or to see a doctor? You bet. But the overall green goal will be achieved - the problem isn't the increase in prices(as such), it's the fact that the social safety net wasn't there to help those truly in need. No one in this country should have been choosing between heating or feeding their families - but I know people were.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  > Will it impact poor people disproportionately? You bet. Sane countries roll out a mini-UBI to account for this. Canada has a system of quarterly payments for every tax payer to make carbon taxes revenue-neutral (in theory). The belly-aching whining is truly extraordinary. https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/cai-payment.html https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-famil... Now, if we could convince the government that cutting labour taxes would increase supply of labour during a “labour shortage”, we might be getting somewhere.
  - pseudo0 4y ago
    It isn't UBI and it isn't revenue neutral. It's a revenue-generating tax that makes most families poorer. > "When both fiscal and economic impacts of the federal fuel charge are considered, we estimate that most households will see a net loss,” PBO Yves Giroux said in a statement following release of the report. “Based on our analysis, most households will pay more in fuel charges and GST—as well as receiving slightly lower incomes—than they will receive in Climate Action Incentive payments.” https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/guilbeault-defends-carbon-price-says-on-average-households-will-pay-more-but-rich-will-shoulder-burden-1.6338974 https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/guilbeault-defends-carbon-pr... > In provinces where the fee is levied, 90% of the revenues are returned to tax-payers.[4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada
malermeister 4y ago
Brexit, on the other hand, which is the root cause of a lot of economic hardship in the UK, was a collective decision.
- youngtaff 4y ago
  Only a collective decision for 52% of those who voted… an there were many people e.g. EU citizens living in the UK who were allowed to vote
  - youngtaff 4y ago
    Urgh should say “weren’t allowed to vote” as EU citizens living in the Uk were denied a voice in the Brexit vote
dangwhy 4y ago
They need charge for electricity based on income like tax rates. Flat rate model doesn't make any sense.
dijit 4y ago
Britain is a special case unfortunately. While energy costs going up will have an impact on everyones bottom line, if they are already so close to the edge then any price increase in anything essential is going to force people into those positions. People are already cutting all non-essentials, there is no more financial slack and it doesn't matter which essential thing is going up: housing, food or energy. The only reason I would even suggest that higher energy prices are good for ecology would be that businesses started genuinely doing things to cut consumption, like turning off lit advertising and office lights. That people are essentially priced out of living healthy is nothing to be celebrated of course, but there is a small silver lining and it should be discussed. that people cant afford to live is a pretty massive failing of the UK and its policies. That’s been talked to death though.
- nasmorn 4y ago
  The weird thing is Britain is not that cold. Insulation is often atrocious though.
- nivenkos 4y ago
  Sweden also had energy support payments and a rise in food banks (over 20% food price inflation too), it isn't just the UK.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dijit 4y ago
    Yeah, nice try.. inflation was a factor but as a dual national Brit/Swede it is at least twice as bad if not more in the UK. The financial assistance offered to Swedes for the power consumption is contentious as most people didn’t expect anything to be paid back and it was taken from the energy companies profits too. It’s not even remotely the same, even though the Murdoch media would like to make you think so.
    - nivenkos 4y ago
      Food inflation was higher in Sweden than the UK - that's just a statistical fact. I live in Sweden with family in the UK, both countries have suffered. It's not the "Murdoch media".
nradov 4y ago
There was a highly publicized case in the UK where an elderly woman rode the bus all day to stay warm because she couldn't afford to heat her home. https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-utterly-shameful-that-pensioners-are-riding-buses-to-keep-warm-says-labour-12604615 https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-utterly-shameful-t...
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  Does the UK not have people riding the $PublicTransit all day because they don’t have a home?
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    Not often, probably due to the cost of tickets. You can also beg in the streets, but not on buses or trains.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
Same in the Netherlands. There's quite a bit of energy poverty with people no longer being able to afford to properly heat their homes. That's especially an issue for people living in older, poorly insulated apartments on low incomes. Lots of people that just sit on the couch under a blanket to stay warm. Apparently, hypothermia with elderly people has been a thing. That also increases the likelihood of strokes and other issues. Especially people with poor circulation. Other issues include respiratory issues due to cold and increased humidity in the apartments.
simooooo 4y ago
My gas bill went to £450 a month. Bad times

nonethewiser 4y ago

In what way did people have to make this choice? I take your point I’m just not familiar with how people we’re actually affected.

Waterluvian 4y ago
For every percent that utility prices go up (or really: non-optional bills), A larger and larger slice of people simply cannot make it work and have to sacrifice something. There's an important point: how much of this was non-optional vs. luxury? I keep my home at 22, but if I had to, I could probably set it to 19 and tell everyone to wear a sweater in the winter. So not everyone, but definitely some slice of the population probably went from 19 to 16 or lower. In Canada this can be a serious issue. My gas bill literally doubled for the same volume compared to last winter. This can be a sudden $100-200 extra monthly expense. Luckily it's illegal to ever cut anyone off from gas in the winter... but that doesn't fix the financial catastrophe.
- MayeulC 4y ago
  Wait, you are not wearing a sweater inside during winter? 19 is like, the temperature we set during off-peak hours, otherwise it's more like 18 (and we let it coast down during the evening). Admittedly, it's quite cold when not moving around, so I spent most of the winter with at least 3 sweaters, a hot water bottle, and a blanket (and 2 layers of pants, usually). When moving around, 17-18 is quite comfortable though, a long sleeved shirt or light sweater is usually enough.
  - 908B64B197 4y ago
    > Wait, you are not wearing a sweater inside during winter? He's Canadian. Over there electricity costs 0.044 €‎ / kWh https://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/customer-space/rates/rate-d-billing.html https://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/customer-space/rates...
    - Waterluvian 4y ago
      My monthly gas bill was $350 in January. It’s a luxury I enjoy given how pedantic my dad was about the thermostat. Also my hydro is closer to 9 cents.
onion2k 4y ago
The price of energy went up and the price of food went up, so people who don't have much money had to choose one or the other.
gambiting 4y ago
Electricity prices have literally tripled or quadrupled for some people - and for poor people the effect was even worse because the poorest groups are on prepayment meters which are on the most expensive tariffs of all. So yes, there were people for whom the choice was "well I have £5 for today, either it's going in the meter so I can put heating on for a few hours and stay warm, or I need to use it to buy food to feed my family". This isn't some theoretical edge case scenario - this was a dilemma that many British families were faced with this winter.
- youngtaff 4y ago
  What’s worse is they still get charged the standing charge so if the meter has been empty for days, then adding credit to it may just get swallowed up by paying the standing charge due for those days
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  Thank you for explaining.

kvdveer 4y ago

> Let's not pretend this was some kind of collective decision or green victory. It wasn't just that, but there definitely was a collective shift toward energy saving, also among those who could've afforded the high energy prices. (at least here in NL) I agree we shouldn't celebrate the decision of the poor to be energy-frugal, they had no choice in most cases. But those wo had a choice, still chose to conserve energy, often structurally. We should celebrate that for the environmental win it is.

boomskats 4y ago
> But those wo had a choice, still chose to conserve energy, often structurally. We should celebrate that for the environmental win it is. This is interesting. Can you point to the data on this? Do you guys run some kind of tracker study?
- kvdveer 4y ago
  I only have anekdata, unfortunately. My observations: * I tried to find a contractor for some work on my house. Very few were available, none were available short-term. Most told me this is due to extreme demand for isolation measures. * Lead times on heat pumps rose to half a year, presumably also due to demand. * People dressed warmer. * The most common thermostat temperature for people around me temperature dropped from 20c to 19c. * "How to isolate" was a very common topic in most Dutch media, far more than in previous winters.
dunslandsboo 4y ago
It was a fun game for the well off green voters indeed. LARPing that they are saving the planet by reacting to a higher energy bill. Tracking it all with their fun home assistant gadgets and showing off at work how much they are saving. It had no real impact on them, and most would go fly around the world to celebrate the holiday as soon as they had the chance. For the working class however, the people really affected by the green policies, it was a matter of choosing between heat and groceries. For the environment it doesn't matter one bit as China is using more energy than the whole western world combined. It's telling that only the people that can still easily pay the bills see this as something to be celebrated.

gambiting 4y ago

Well, in a weird way it does make sense though. As a different example, if you want to cut fuel consumption nationally just double the prices - you will see how much less fuel people will use because they will just drive less. Will it impact poor people disproportionately? Ensure that some people won't be able to go shopping or to see a doctor? You bet. But the overall green goal will be achieved - the problem isn't the increase in prices(as such), it's the fact that the social safety net wasn't there to help those truly in need. No one in this country should have been choosing between heating or feeding their families - but I know people were.

Scoundreller 4y ago
> Will it impact poor people disproportionately? You bet. Sane countries roll out a mini-UBI to account for this. Canada has a system of quarterly payments for every tax payer to make carbon taxes revenue-neutral (in theory). The belly-aching whining is truly extraordinary. https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-family-benefits/cai-payment.html https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/child-famil... Now, if we could convince the government that cutting labour taxes would increase supply of labour during a “labour shortage”, we might be getting somewhere.
- pseudo0 4y ago
  It isn't UBI and it isn't revenue neutral. It's a revenue-generating tax that makes most families poorer. > "When both fiscal and economic impacts of the federal fuel charge are considered, we estimate that most households will see a net loss,” PBO Yves Giroux said in a statement following release of the report. “Based on our analysis, most households will pay more in fuel charges and GST—as well as receiving slightly lower incomes—than they will receive in Climate Action Incentive payments.” https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/guilbeault-defends-carbon-price-says-on-average-households-will-pay-more-but-rich-will-shoulder-burden-1.6338974 https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/guilbeault-defends-carbon-pr... > In provinces where the fee is levied, 90% of the revenues are returned to tax-payers.[4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada

malermeister 4y ago

Brexit, on the other hand, which is the root cause of a lot of economic hardship in the UK, was a collective decision.

youngtaff 4y ago
Only a collective decision for 52% of those who voted… an there were many people e.g. EU citizens living in the UK who were allowed to vote
- youngtaff 4y ago
  Urgh should say “weren’t allowed to vote” as EU citizens living in the Uk were denied a voice in the Brexit vote

dangwhy 4y ago

They need charge for electricity based on income like tax rates. Flat rate model doesn't make any sense.

dijit 4y ago

Britain is a special case unfortunately. While energy costs going up will have an impact on everyones bottom line, if they are already so close to the edge then any price increase in anything essential is going to force people into those positions. People are already cutting all non-essentials, there is no more financial slack and it doesn't matter which essential thing is going up: housing, food or energy. The only reason I would even suggest that higher energy prices are good for ecology would be that businesses started genuinely doing things to cut consumption, like turning off lit advertising and office lights. That people are essentially priced out of living healthy is nothing to be celebrated of course, but there is a small silver lining and it should be discussed. that people cant afford to live is a pretty massive failing of the UK and its policies. That’s been talked to death though.

nasmorn 4y ago
The weird thing is Britain is not that cold. Insulation is often atrocious though.
nivenkos 4y ago
Sweden also had energy support payments and a rise in food banks (over 20% food price inflation too), it isn't just the UK.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dijit 4y ago
  Yeah, nice try.. inflation was a factor but as a dual national Brit/Swede it is at least twice as bad if not more in the UK. The financial assistance offered to Swedes for the power consumption is contentious as most people didn’t expect anything to be paid back and it was taken from the energy companies profits too. It’s not even remotely the same, even though the Murdoch media would like to make you think so.
  - nivenkos 4y ago
    Food inflation was higher in Sweden than the UK - that's just a statistical fact. I live in Sweden with family in the UK, both countries have suffered. It's not the "Murdoch media".

nradov 4y ago

There was a highly publicized case in the UK where an elderly woman rode the bus all day to stay warm because she couldn't afford to heat her home. https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-utterly-shameful-that-pensioners-are-riding-buses-to-keep-warm-says-labour-12604615 https://news.sky.com/story/cost-of-living-utterly-shameful-t...

Scoundreller 4y ago
Does the UK not have people riding the $PublicTransit all day because they don’t have a home?
- Symbiote 4y ago
  Not often, probably due to the cost of tickets. You can also beg in the streets, but not on buses or trains.

jillesvangurp 4y ago

Same in the Netherlands. There's quite a bit of energy poverty with people no longer being able to afford to properly heat their homes. That's especially an issue for people living in older, poorly insulated apartments on low incomes. Lots of people that just sit on the couch under a blanket to stay warm. Apparently, hypothermia with elderly people has been a thing. That also increases the likelihood of strokes and other issues. Especially people with poor circulation. Other issues include respiratory issues due to cold and increased humidity in the apartments.

simooooo 4y ago

My gas bill went to £450 a month. Bad times