4 ms·

I read "Rare Earths" are nor really rare. But the article did say extracting these elements cheaply causes a lot of environmental damage, which as we know, Chi

by jmclnx 4y ago

I read "Rare Earths" are nor really rare. But the article did say extracting these elements cheaply causes a lot of environmental damage, which as we know, China is perfectly fine with. I also read the US is close to opening a "mining" site for Rear Earths, but not sure where or for what elements.

zdragnar 4y ago
They are rare in the sense that they tend to be extremely diffuse, rather than having nice, massive veins of concentrated ore or elemental metal like you might find for copper or bauxite. Since they tend to be diffuse, mining them requires disrupting significant volumes of earth and rock, plus the chemicals needed to separate them out of the less interesting material that gets dug up. The cheapest way to do that is to strip mine large tracts of land and not reclaim or treat any water used in the process, which will likely be full of heavy metals and other chemicals. If we don't like how other countries do it, we have to be willing to do it ourselves, which means years delayed supply chains (basically every mine in the US is protested and delayed through the legal system) and higher prices for the refined materials (it costs more to do it right).
- akiselev 4y ago
  It's called "liquid-liquid extraction" [1] and requires crushing the rock and mixing it with an extractant (see D2EHPA [2] which is also used in uranium extraction) into a nasty acidic slurry. It is then separated into a aqueous layer containing the waste and a nonpolar solvent that strips the rare earth elements bound up with the extractant. All the different rare earth elements then have to be separated out of the nonpolar solvent using even more toxic chemicals, each of which leaves behind a different hazardous waste. Fun(?) fact: This process looks a lot like the alkali extraction process used to make cocaine, DMT, and a variety of other drugs. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extracti... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di-(2-ethylhexyl)phosphoric_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di-(2-ethylhexyl)phosphoric_ac...
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    I'm not a chemist, but I have watched enough explosions&fire / extractions & ire to know this sounds about right.
barelysapient 4y ago
California had a very large RE mine until it suffered a toxic waste spill and closed in 2002. [1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine#:~:text=The%20mine%20closed%20in%202002,of%20previously%20mined%20ore%20continued https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine#:~:text=The....
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  "Mountain Pass was acquired out of bankruptcy in July 2017 with the goal of reviving America's rare-earth industry.[16][17][18][19] MP Materials resumed mining and refining operations in January 2018"
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
The US has always had rare earth mines, but competition from low cost producers in China makes them economically unviable (and the US is market based, among other things). There is plenty of supply in developed countries, but being undercut by other producers require government subsidies or a more closed market to be viable. If China refuses to export this stuff themselves, it actually makes these mines more economically viable. However, if they export the end products, they could still have problems.
- moose_man 4y ago
  Yeah China purposefully undermined the competition through state funding in order to control the market.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    I doubt it was that, I think China's lack of environmental rule enforcement led to a condition that allowed for lower cost producers, the state didn't intend on controlling this market (or maybe some combination of that, but refusing to export in the future means they won't control the market anymore).
    - moose_man 4y ago
      No, it's pretty clear that this was a top down effort to control the global market, a concerted effort by the state. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-merges-three-rare-earths-state-owned-entities-to-increase-pricing-power-and-efficiency/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-merges-three-rare-...
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        No, not at all. It is clear to you because you aren't looking at the entire history. But to anyone who has been in China for awhile, it is obvious that it happened overtime and wasn't intended. You are assuming China is an authoritarian country where state control is absolute, but in reality, China is a huge country where there are lots people making even if that means destroying the environment while the government isn't paying attention.
robocat 4y ago
> environmental damage which China is perfectly fine with “China has outsourced much of its rare earth mining industry to Myanmar’s Kachin state” https://news.mongabay.com/2022/08/toxic-rare-earth-mines-fuel-deforestation-rights-abuses-in-myanmar-report-says/ https://news.mongabay.com/2022/08/toxic-rare-earth-mines-fue... (maybe overstated, but definitely a real issue).
- nonethewiser 4y ago
  > The mining areas in Kachin state are poorly regulated, undocumented, and “illegal under Myanmar’s laws,” says the report. Moreover, many mining areas are run by militias affiliated with the country’s military junta, which raises the risk of industry revenues providing income for the junta’s activities. Remember, China insists this is good for society
sohex 4y ago
I think it's important in the context of this discussion to separate the mining of rare earths and the processing thereof. Both are generally environmentally hazardous, but in different ways. The mining process generally involves strip mines or open pit mines (such as Mountain Pass in California, iirc the only US rare earth mine), neither of which are particularly friendly to the environment. The processing is also hazardous due to the chemicals and processes necessary to separate the component elements of the ores which are effectively more tightly coupled than is the case in most metal mines. Domestically that means continued and heightened investment in Mountain Pass as well as potentially other sites, but also the development of domestic processing industry. So while the mine might be in California we're going to see the ancillary industry popping up in locations with notably lower standards, i.e. Texas.
bbojan 4y ago
Think of "rare" as "diluted" or "rarified", as opposed to "scarce".
nonethewiser 4y ago
Does China primarily do this IN China? If so, where? I would guess West and/or north central?
01100011 4y ago
I think another issue is that a lot of the various rare earths(maybe just the lanthanides?) are chemically similar and thus very difficult to isolate. In the end, a lot of this just boils down to establishing the production networks which takes time and a lot of money.

by jmclnx 4y ago

zdragnar 4y ago

They are rare in the sense that they tend to be extremely diffuse, rather than having nice, massive veins of concentrated ore or elemental metal like you might find for copper or bauxite. Since they tend to be diffuse, mining them requires disrupting significant volumes of earth and rock, plus the chemicals needed to separate them out of the less interesting material that gets dug up. The cheapest way to do that is to strip mine large tracts of land and not reclaim or treat any water used in the process, which will likely be full of heavy metals and other chemicals. If we don't like how other countries do it, we have to be willing to do it ourselves, which means years delayed supply chains (basically every mine in the US is protested and delayed through the legal system) and higher prices for the refined materials (it costs more to do it right).

akiselev 4y ago
It's called "liquid-liquid extraction" [1] and requires crushing the rock and mixing it with an extractant (see D2EHPA [2] which is also used in uranium extraction) into a nasty acidic slurry. It is then separated into a aqueous layer containing the waste and a nonpolar solvent that strips the rare earth elements bound up with the extractant. All the different rare earth elements then have to be separated out of the nonpolar solvent using even more toxic chemicals, each of which leaves behind a different hazardous waste. Fun(?) fact: This process looks a lot like the alkali extraction process used to make cocaine, DMT, and a variety of other drugs. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extraction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid%E2%80%93liquid_extracti... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di-(2-ethylhexyl)phosphoric_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Di-(2-ethylhexyl)phosphoric_ac...
- zdragnar 4y ago
  I'm not a chemist, but I have watched enough explosions&fire / extractions & ire to know this sounds about right.

barelysapient 4y ago

California had a very large RE mine until it suffered a toxic waste spill and closed in 2002. [1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine#:~:text=The%20mine%20closed%20in%202002,of%20previously%20mined%20ore%20continued https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_mine#:~:text=The....

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
"Mountain Pass was acquired out of bankruptcy in July 2017 with the goal of reviving America's rare-earth industry.[16][17][18][19] MP Materials resumed mining and refining operations in January 2018"

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

The US has always had rare earth mines, but competition from low cost producers in China makes them economically unviable (and the US is market based, among other things). There is plenty of supply in developed countries, but being undercut by other producers require government subsidies or a more closed market to be viable. If China refuses to export this stuff themselves, it actually makes these mines more economically viable. However, if they export the end products, they could still have problems.

moose_man 4y ago
Yeah China purposefully undermined the competition through state funding in order to control the market.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  I doubt it was that, I think China's lack of environmental rule enforcement led to a condition that allowed for lower cost producers, the state didn't intend on controlling this market (or maybe some combination of that, but refusing to export in the future means they won't control the market anymore).
  - moose_man 4y ago
    No, it's pretty clear that this was a top down effort to control the global market, a concerted effort by the state. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-merges-three-rare-earths-state-owned-entities-to-increase-pricing-power-and-efficiency/ https://www.china-briefing.com/news/china-merges-three-rare-...
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      No, not at all. It is clear to you because you aren't looking at the entire history. But to anyone who has been in China for awhile, it is obvious that it happened overtime and wasn't intended. You are assuming China is an authoritarian country where state control is absolute, but in reality, China is a huge country where there are lots people making even if that means destroying the environment while the government isn't paying attention.

robocat 4y ago

> environmental damage which China is perfectly fine with “China has outsourced much of its rare earth mining industry to Myanmar’s Kachin state” https://news.mongabay.com/2022/08/toxic-rare-earth-mines-fuel-deforestation-rights-abuses-in-myanmar-report-says/ https://news.mongabay.com/2022/08/toxic-rare-earth-mines-fue... (maybe overstated, but definitely a real issue).

nonethewiser 4y ago
> The mining areas in Kachin state are poorly regulated, undocumented, and “illegal under Myanmar’s laws,” says the report. Moreover, many mining areas are run by militias affiliated with the country’s military junta, which raises the risk of industry revenues providing income for the junta’s activities. Remember, China insists this is good for society

sohex 4y ago

I think it's important in the context of this discussion to separate the mining of rare earths and the processing thereof. Both are generally environmentally hazardous, but in different ways. The mining process generally involves strip mines or open pit mines (such as Mountain Pass in California, iirc the only US rare earth mine), neither of which are particularly friendly to the environment. The processing is also hazardous due to the chemicals and processes necessary to separate the component elements of the ores which are effectively more tightly coupled than is the case in most metal mines. Domestically that means continued and heightened investment in Mountain Pass as well as potentially other sites, but also the development of domestic processing industry. So while the mine might be in California we're going to see the ancillary industry popping up in locations with notably lower standards, i.e. Texas.

bbojan 4y ago

Think of "rare" as "diluted" or "rarified", as opposed to "scarce".

nonethewiser 4y ago

Does China primarily do this IN China? If so, where? I would guess West and/or north central?

01100011 4y ago

I think another issue is that a lot of the various rare earths(maybe just the lanthanides?) are chemically similar and thus very difficult to isolate. In the end, a lot of this just boils down to establishing the production networks which takes time and a lot of money.