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I hit some bad burnout last year, and it's become hard to think hard about anything ever since. Like a defense mechanism has been installed in my brain preventi

I hit some bad burnout last year, and it's become hard to think hard about anything ever since. Like a defense mechanism has been installed in my brain preventing me from hurting myself like that again. When I have to think hard about something for work I have to push past that and then I feel an intense dissociation while I do. It doesn't feel good.

bigDinosaur 4y ago
It took me a year to recover from burnout. Don't underestimate the recovery phase. I was at the point where any cognitive effort caused very similar effects to what you would describe, kind of like the mental equivalent of having lifted weights to failure but with an instantaneous onset. I suspect every case is unique, but I'd suggest thinking very carefully about how you can take an extended break from work. The key distinguishing what I felt with burnout from just being mentally tired is that no problem, no matter how hard it was to solve (or even if I failed miserably at solving it) has ever caused me to instanteously feel 100% mentally exhausted. By contrast, when burnt out, even fairly trivial work tasks would trigger this.
- stavros 4y ago
  Did you also "hear" a sound in your head like a guitar string breaking when it happened?
  - Trasmatta 4y ago
    I don't think so, but your comment sounds super familiar. I think we may have chatted about burnout before on another thread on HN? I did once have an experience with nitrous oxide where I heard something similar and subsequently had a pretty major shift in my thinking process for awhile.
    - stavros 4y ago
      I think I may have read it on here before, this thread just jogged my memory and I figured I'd ask.
      - TeMPOraL 4y ago
        I do distinctly remember reading about this particular metaphor, but can't for the life of me remember where and in what context. Hopefully someone here can recall?
  - firecall 4y ago
    Can you explain more?
    - stavros 4y ago
      It's just something someone described their brain "breaking" as, and I was curious whether the GP had the same symptom.
- Trasmatta 4y ago
  I would love to take an extended break, but unfortunately it's not really possible at the moment... I'm living in a VHCOL city, and have an expensive chronic disease as well that means I can't really afford extended time off. I don't have any family members that I could fall back on either. So in the meantime, I'm kind of just putting in the minimal effort at work, not doing any side projects, and going on lots of really really long walks. That seems to be slowly helping.
  - kodah 4y ago
    fwiw, I'm in the same boat. My parents are retired, though still here. The strategy you mentioned worked for me, although it takes longer. A year instead of six months. I have read more about being able to use short and long term disability, which might help, or be a viable part of a strategy. If you do this, I'd recommend having your own insurance and not using your state or companies disability insurance.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >and going on lots of really really long walks. What I found helps is spending as much time outdoor as possible, preferably in the sun and in the wild nature, especially if they're light hike. Try to do that at least half a day every weekend. Hope you get better.
  - nuancebydefault 4y ago
    Long walks help. Also therapy or just a long talk with someone you trust, work wonders. Just intensely and suddenly realizing that the situation is not your fault and that other people go through periods like that, takes a big weight off your shoulders. It's exactly that weight that makes you tired soo fast.
- NovaDudely 4y ago
  Yeah about a year sounds right for getting to the point of merely facing the tasks again. Personally it feels like there is a permanent anchor on those tasks. In that, yes you can do them again but you will never get back to the same speed or skill with it ever again. It has been a little over 2 years since I left my job from burnout, now I am doing something completely different and a lot less intense. But I don't think I could ever go back to what I once did. I have permanently blowen out half my cylinders. ;)
BossingAround 4y ago
Same. I feel completely stupid, and have to strain even for the most basic code. It's like I know the high level of things, but to actually force myself to write the code, email, design the workflow, or get engaged in meetings feels like an impossible feat. I've been pondering changing my job, but I worry that I'd be just a low performer in the new place.
- politician 4y ago
  Supplement with ChatGPT for anything rote.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    Funny you should say that, I recently started to use it to push through the tedium. Nothing critical, nothing IP revealing, no copy-pasting - just "Ok, how do I do X using technology Y", or "Write me a function that does X with Y". Changing the problem from having to figure the simple but tedious thing myself, to having to review someone else's solution, is like switching to a less obstructed track. > 50% of the time, ChatGPT is wrong in some way. But it's also close enough, and/or mentions some magic phrase or a hitherto unknown to me library function, that it's both interesting and motivating.
    - tominous 4y ago
      Same for me. I see it as the combination of 5 things: 1. It lowers the activation energy of getting started; for me motivation tends to come after action, and it gets me to that point. 2. It taps into the intense drive of "someone is wrong on the internet!" as per https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/ 3. It's a new and different way of working so it doesn't trigger the same mental scar tissue. 4. It's vaguely social and high-status (delegating tasks, correcting and reviewing), as opposed to feeling solitary, so it tickles different reward centres. 5. More gets done for the same effort, so the cost/benefit equation is better and the feedback loop tighter.
  - 888666 4y ago
    This has genuinely worked for reducing cognitive load for me.
santiagobasulto 4y ago
In Andrew Huberman’s podcast, I heard the first X minutes of concentration are the hardest, as the brain resists getting in that state. He says that deliberately fighting it, helps improve it (lower the resistance). I’m paraphrasing, and I don’t remember the specific episode. But look it up because it might help start turning it around for you.
- Trasmatta 4y ago
  I think this may be helpful advice for regular work, but not somebody suffering from burnout. During burnout, the brain puts up a much much stronger and persistent layer of resistance to concentration, in order to try to protect you from the pain that occurred while working in the past. Pushing past that is much harder, and can lead to additional blowback.
  - santiagobasulto 4y ago
    Sorry, my bad. He was not talking about it from a “psychological” standpoint. He was citing real hormone changes in the process. So it might be a bit more complicated than what I expressed.
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  Like many, I tie the defense mechanism's arms behind its back with music.
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    It is weak then. My defense mechanism is Borg. It adapts to my music and assimilates it. Resistance is futile.
- bityard 4y ago
  I keep hearing great things about this podcast over and over but every time I try to get into it, I can't get over the insane number of ads.
  - 4y ago
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
What we describe colloquially as burnout has a lot of parallels to mild to moderate clinical depression. So much so that they both respond similarly to the most effective treatments. There is no singular cure, but a consistent regimen of exercise, bright light exposure, and social activity can produce incremental improvements over time. What definitely does not help is using stimulants to try to push through. I feel like I’m seeing more and more social media posts from people who deepen their burnout by trying to use excessive caffeine intake (or stronger prescription stimulants) to try to ignore the warning signs and push on.
- arnejenssen 4y ago
  Coffee and "energy drinks" like Red Bull does not give you energy. They borrow energy from you. It is like overclocking your brain. Sometimes it is what you want, but it comes at a cost.
  - danenania 4y ago
    Caffeine easily creates a negative feedback loop where you consume it, then get less and lower quality sleep, and therefore need more caffeine to function at the same level, so you sleep even worse, and so on. The main fixes I’ve found for myself are: - Get a lot of exercise and sunlight (if possible) to counteract the caffeine’s effect on sleep. - Resist the urge to have more caffeine than usual when tired. It works well as an enhancer to a well-rested brain, but when used to compensate for sleep deprivation, it’s counter-productive.
    - hesdeadjim 4y ago
      Second point is a great call out. I used to keep shoveling caffeine when I was younger and ended up having huge sleep problems (surprise) and a 26+ circadian rhythm. I’d quit for a month, then be back on it. Eventually I figured out that a solid blast of cold brew in the morning and none the rest of the day worked better —- almost like medicine. Like you say, if I feel I need more then it’s a lifestyle problem.
expertentipp 4y ago
> Like a defense mechanism has been installed in my brain preventing me from hurting myself like that again. I consider this a feature not a bug. Now go focus on important things in life: money, sex, and exercise. Don't overthink. Learning another state management method in new generation of Angular, unwinding a mess created by CV-driven FOMO hysterics, acrobatics in Java design patterns... they're all not worth it.
- gear54rus 4y ago
  that first one on the list kinda requires it though... and the 2nd one kinda requires the first one haha not that easy is it
  - Trasmatta 4y ago
    Maybe not. I put a ridiculous amount of effort into that last project last year. I saved it from disaster, which saved a bunch of people's asses that had fucked it up over and over. Nobody really noticed. My raise this year didn't keep up with inflation. I could have let the project fail like it should have, rather than burning myself out. Maybe I would have received some of the blame, but chances are I'd still just be making the same amount of money if I had just cared less.
    - gear54rus 4y ago
      That's a classic story in a corporate world but I fail to see how is it relevant in the context :) We were talking about 'thinking' being required but nobody said it was sufficient.
      - Trasmatta 4y ago
        I was mostly approaching it from the angle of how overworking and overthinking isn't really necessary to make money. And how doing so can actually lead to burnout.
        4y ago
neongodzilla 4y ago
I learned this week that "occupational burnout" [1] often results in the brain developing a trauma response to the idea of returning to the same job/tasks, which is why people will sometimes entirely switch careers. It absolutely is the brain trying to protect itself. Not all forms of burnout results in trauma responses, but they all require extended recovery. Burnout is preventable, but once it has been reached, the damage has been done and rest is required. No joke: 3-6 months is the usual recovery time. Paths to occupational burnout: - No mental rest from work. "Taking it home with you." Often skipping breaks to keep focused. - Jobs that require high amounts of mental processing for long periods (customer service, development, troubleshooting, multitasking, urgent-response). "Brown out" is the stage when you're still capable of functioning in spurts, but your brain/body is sending warning signs (that we have been taught to ignore). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout?wprov=sft...
- tayo42 4y ago
  3 to 6 months is interesting, it almost exactly lines up with my experience of leaving work for a bit. at around three months, i mostly stopped feeling like shit and angry about some of the things that happened. i felt like i was a baseline. at around 6 months i started to feel actually good. also at 6 months im trying to get back to work and the interview process and job market sucks so im feeling miserable again haha
  - arthurcolle 4y ago
    If you ever wanna chat I'm in the same boat. Just keep your head above water and try to think positively. Playing with ChatGPT and the dirty cheap OpenAI APIs has helped me a lot =)
    - ChildOfChaos 4y ago
      Curious, as in it's something you just found interesting or as in it's something you use to talk through your issues with?
coding123 4y ago
That does sound like PTSD. My wife has it and this sounds very similar.
RobRivera 4y ago
it me O.O ive been trying to refactor my health habits to identify a proper solution. hikes, runs, lifts, good dieting, sleep. gave up alcohol. results vary, its not all doom and gloom, but burnout is real
amelius 4y ago
Try sleeping 9-10 hours every night, and see if it becomes less.
bitL 4y ago
Boost B1/B2/B3 vitamin supplementation, take NAD boosters like Niagen or NMN, NAC, potassium and alpha-ketoglutarate to get your neural mitochondria back into shape. Sodium-potassium pump consumes 75% of neuron's energy and too low potassium or too weak mitochondria interferes with it. Too strong mitochondria with low potassium makes it worse as well. NAC is to get rid of metabolic waste, AKG is to make cells more resilient.
- Trasmatta 4y ago
  Supplementation can only do so much when there are fundamental psychological issues at play too
  - bitL 4y ago
    Psychological issues often stem from mitochondria not working properly, i.e. neurons not having enough energy to work well. Fix mitochondria and many psychological problems disappear. See e.g.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18979198/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18979198/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/mitochondria-may-hold-keys-to-anxiety-and-mental-health-20200810/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/mitochondria-may-hold-keys-to...
    - tayo42 4y ago
      what makes you think that your mitochondria isn't working properly. reading this it sounds like your throwing a bunch of supplements at something and hoping something else happens. it doesn't sound very scientific.
      - bitL 4y ago
        Did you read the second link?
        tayo42 4y ago
        I don't think that justifies saying its often mitochondira. it doesnt explain why in the first place. it sounds like the depression is caused by an chemical imbalance thing. i dont think you can make sweeping judgements like that and say something like just take some vitamins and youll be cured
sandermvanvliet 4y ago
I have the same problem, need to really push to actually think properly. Not only for work but just in general. I’ve taken a break off work for ~7 months but it seems that wasn’t enough to get back to the level I was used to before. While this sucks, I’m kind of happy I’m apparently not the only one that experiences this
ansc 4y ago
Oh wow. I had the same thing, I hadn't actually heard of anyone else with the same issue. Basically got a panic attack/heavy anxiety/vertigo feeling sometimes when sitting down at the computer to work. It was a year ago, luckily I'm doing better now. Or well, I now hate technology, computers and programming. Shame to lose what you once loved like that. I hope you are well.
- NovaDudely 4y ago
  This response went a little of the rails... While I am not full luddite (I mean I am on here!) - I fell into a similar funk. I just do not really care for the higher level stuff of computers and technology any more. I love the potential of what we can do with computers but I am also starting to feel that we need to make that connection between the higher mental state of pure information that we use them for today and move more into a state of them interacting with the real world in simple fashion. This is probably a part of my Stallman streak in me but am also more in line with Jaron Lanier. See the potential and then get disappointed by the results. But I am so much more into my cooking, premaculture, just chilling with friends or even by myself down by the river. Yeah, I still have a 9 to 5 job but that whole 'tech' angle is just gone. There are occasional little sparks of interest but they rarely last longer than a half hour. To bring it back to tech in the real world, the idea of a computer monitoring and controlling a little glass house out the back of my house is really cool. But this is something an Ardiuno could do. A lot of things I want to see tech do in my own daily life can potentially be done on an Amiga 1000. I am still into tech but the lens through which I use it has changed a lot.
Y_Y 4y ago
> Strumming my pain with his fingers > Singing my life with his words > Killing me softly with his song In you know that you're describing a feeling not trivial, but especially not unique.
lawn 4y ago
I had the same experience and I think I'm back where I used to be. A year later. I think the key is to take an extended break from work or whatever caused the burnout. Other things may be helpful, but for me this is the only thing that really helped.
shrimp_emoji 4y ago
This is what I experienced in college! A stressful gauntlet of trying my hardest, only to be met with failure, which generated self-loathing and hopelessness, eventually resulted in an emotional "snap". It wasn't gradual; I think I felt it the minute it happened. It was sudden. It was, "Oh, suddenly I can't bring myself to care anymore." It was like dropping a heavy load onto the ground and finally being free. It felt exactly like "a defense mechanism has been installed in my brain preventing me from hurting myself like that again". From then on, I had much more self-compassion, regardless of how things turned out, and I felt emotionally decoupled from my performance or self-perceived intelligence. (Disappointing people still hurts when it hinges on those things due to the personal connection, but impersonal metrics like grades or money or whatever ceased having an effect.) I couldn't work or focus as hard as I did before, when I self-flagellated myself to with shame and insecurity. That seemed like a potent fuel source, like coal or gasoline: powerful but dirty/unhealthy long-term. ;p I don't feel like I have that anymore. I can't really "push through" using it. But I'd say I'm only debuffed like 10 or 20% -- not by a HUGE amount, and what motivation I marshal now feels a lot more sustainable and grounded in my actual, day-to-day well-being. I think learning and striving from a place of self-security and self-compassion feels a LOT better, even with that debuff. (Compared to from a place of "OH GOD I GOTTA DO THIS OR I'M NOT AS GOOD AS THAT PERSON OR GOOD ENOUGH FOR THIS OH GOD OH FUCK[0]".) So, oddly, for me, it felt (and feels) great. >When I have to think hard about something for work I have to push past that and then I feel an intense dissociation while I do. I don't even feel capable of pushing too far past beyond my boundaries. I simply don't. It's kind of a like high-functioning depression for me, where the "can't get out of bed" factor kicks in at like "175% of your typical day's workload". I still "work hard" on things, and people regularly say I do or say that I'm working all the time, but I only hit like 150% max. For me, it's also been several years while only a year for you, however. Maybe that changes things! Also, the "coal" and "gasoline" of insecurity were probably coming from ego. I think that's what broke: my ego. If your starting point wasn't "I have to do this because my ego tells me I should be able to so my self-image is completely wrapped up in it", like mine was, that might also change things. 0: https://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/367/603/ab3.jpg https://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/367/603/ab...
foxandmouse 4y ago
when you’re anxious it becomes hard to think for yourself, and it becomes very easy to let the anxiety make decisions for you. Anxiety can impair creative thinking and lead to decision-making based on survival instincts.
pengaru 4y ago
Anecdata: I've found something as simple as a daily calm stretching routine goes a long way towards keeping the mind+body on board with everything else I call on it to do. Not that I'm some new-age meditation and yoga solve all problems type at all. But stretching in particular is a surprisingly effective mind+body exercise because there's all these safeguards in place to prevent carelessly damaging your muscles and joints. When you increase your flexibility and condition your mind+body to allow reaching these extended positions, it's like you're earning the trust of the system. It's not purely a physical flexibility thing, there's a huge mental component. That seems to translate into greater self-trust elsewhere, be it pushing physical limits of endurance/strength or constant long coding sessions.
- gniv 4y ago
  I would like to do this, but last time I did it seriously I inflamed my knees. Any videos you recommend?
elcritch 4y ago
I had this after my physics undergrad. When I went back to get a masters in material science my brain just would not do even simple fractions. Luckily I had a friend who knew I was capable of it and pushed me a bit to get through it, but it was exactly like a trauma block. Well doing quantum chemistry research as an undergrad with a crazy Russian professor will do that to yah.
- leonhard 4y ago
  How did you end up in the end and how did it affect you later if I may ask?
  - elcritch 4y ago
    I mostly got back to being capable of doing the math problems again. I had to retake one course and went on acing the final for it with a 98%, etc. Years later I've largely recovered, but I still shy away from basic arithmetic in front of others. However, I was able to get back to where I can solve math problems and even find it fun on the rare occasion I get to. In some ways I have a deeper intuitive understanding than I did as an undergraduate, despite my faculties not being quite as "quick". Actually I rarely need to solve an equation to get enough of the answer I need to solve many problems.

bigDinosaur 4y ago

It took me a year to recover from burnout. Don't underestimate the recovery phase. I was at the point where any cognitive effort caused very similar effects to what you would describe, kind of like the mental equivalent of having lifted weights to failure but with an instantaneous onset. I suspect every case is unique, but I'd suggest thinking very carefully about how you can take an extended break from work. The key distinguishing what I felt with burnout from just being mentally tired is that no problem, no matter how hard it was to solve (or even if I failed miserably at solving it) has ever caused me to instanteously feel 100% mentally exhausted. By contrast, when burnt out, even fairly trivial work tasks would trigger this.

stavros 4y ago
Did you also "hear" a sound in your head like a guitar string breaking when it happened?
- Trasmatta 4y ago
  I don't think so, but your comment sounds super familiar. I think we may have chatted about burnout before on another thread on HN? I did once have an experience with nitrous oxide where I heard something similar and subsequently had a pretty major shift in my thinking process for awhile.
  - stavros 4y ago
    I think I may have read it on here before, this thread just jogged my memory and I figured I'd ask.
    - TeMPOraL 4y ago
      I do distinctly remember reading about this particular metaphor, but can't for the life of me remember where and in what context. Hopefully someone here can recall?
- firecall 4y ago
  Can you explain more?
  - stavros 4y ago
    It's just something someone described their brain "breaking" as, and I was curious whether the GP had the same symptom.
Trasmatta 4y ago
I would love to take an extended break, but unfortunately it's not really possible at the moment... I'm living in a VHCOL city, and have an expensive chronic disease as well that means I can't really afford extended time off. I don't have any family members that I could fall back on either. So in the meantime, I'm kind of just putting in the minimal effort at work, not doing any side projects, and going on lots of really really long walks. That seems to be slowly helping.
- kodah 4y ago
  fwiw, I'm in the same boat. My parents are retired, though still here. The strategy you mentioned worked for me, although it takes longer. A year instead of six months. I have read more about being able to use short and long term disability, which might help, or be a viable part of a strategy. If you do this, I'd recommend having your own insurance and not using your state or companies disability insurance.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >and going on lots of really really long walks. What I found helps is spending as much time outdoor as possible, preferably in the sun and in the wild nature, especially if they're light hike. Try to do that at least half a day every weekend. Hope you get better.
- nuancebydefault 4y ago
  Long walks help. Also therapy or just a long talk with someone you trust, work wonders. Just intensely and suddenly realizing that the situation is not your fault and that other people go through periods like that, takes a big weight off your shoulders. It's exactly that weight that makes you tired soo fast.
NovaDudely 4y ago
Yeah about a year sounds right for getting to the point of merely facing the tasks again. Personally it feels like there is a permanent anchor on those tasks. In that, yes you can do them again but you will never get back to the same speed or skill with it ever again. It has been a little over 2 years since I left my job from burnout, now I am doing something completely different and a lot less intense. But I don't think I could ever go back to what I once did. I have permanently blowen out half my cylinders. ;)

BossingAround 4y ago

Same. I feel completely stupid, and have to strain even for the most basic code. It's like I know the high level of things, but to actually force myself to write the code, email, design the workflow, or get engaged in meetings feels like an impossible feat. I've been pondering changing my job, but I worry that I'd be just a low performer in the new place.

politician 4y ago
Supplement with ChatGPT for anything rote.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  Funny you should say that, I recently started to use it to push through the tedium. Nothing critical, nothing IP revealing, no copy-pasting - just "Ok, how do I do X using technology Y", or "Write me a function that does X with Y". Changing the problem from having to figure the simple but tedious thing myself, to having to review someone else's solution, is like switching to a less obstructed track. > 50% of the time, ChatGPT is wrong in some way. But it's also close enough, and/or mentions some magic phrase or a hitherto unknown to me library function, that it's both interesting and motivating.
  - tominous 4y ago
    Same for me. I see it as the combination of 5 things: 1. It lowers the activation energy of getting started; for me motivation tends to come after action, and it gets me to that point. 2. It taps into the intense drive of "someone is wrong on the internet!" as per https://xkcd.com/386/ https://xkcd.com/386/ 3. It's a new and different way of working so it doesn't trigger the same mental scar tissue. 4. It's vaguely social and high-status (delegating tasks, correcting and reviewing), as opposed to feeling solitary, so it tickles different reward centres. 5. More gets done for the same effort, so the cost/benefit equation is better and the feedback loop tighter.
- 888666 4y ago
  This has genuinely worked for reducing cognitive load for me.

santiagobasulto 4y ago

In Andrew Huberman’s podcast, I heard the first X minutes of concentration are the hardest, as the brain resists getting in that state. He says that deliberately fighting it, helps improve it (lower the resistance). I’m paraphrasing, and I don’t remember the specific episode. But look it up because it might help start turning it around for you.

Trasmatta 4y ago
I think this may be helpful advice for regular work, but not somebody suffering from burnout. During burnout, the brain puts up a much much stronger and persistent layer of resistance to concentration, in order to try to protect you from the pain that occurred while working in the past. Pushing past that is much harder, and can lead to additional blowback.
- santiagobasulto 4y ago
  Sorry, my bad. He was not talking about it from a “psychological” standpoint. He was citing real hormone changes in the process. So it might be a bit more complicated than what I expressed.
slowmovintarget 4y ago
Like many, I tie the defense mechanism's arms behind its back with music.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  It is weak then. My defense mechanism is Borg. It adapts to my music and assimilates it. Resistance is futile.
bityard 4y ago
I keep hearing great things about this podcast over and over but every time I try to get into it, I can't get over the insane number of ads.
- 4y ago

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

What we describe colloquially as burnout has a lot of parallels to mild to moderate clinical depression. So much so that they both respond similarly to the most effective treatments. There is no singular cure, but a consistent regimen of exercise, bright light exposure, and social activity can produce incremental improvements over time. What definitely does not help is using stimulants to try to push through. I feel like I’m seeing more and more social media posts from people who deepen their burnout by trying to use excessive caffeine intake (or stronger prescription stimulants) to try to ignore the warning signs and push on.

arnejenssen 4y ago
Coffee and "energy drinks" like Red Bull does not give you energy. They borrow energy from you. It is like overclocking your brain. Sometimes it is what you want, but it comes at a cost.
- danenania 4y ago
  Caffeine easily creates a negative feedback loop where you consume it, then get less and lower quality sleep, and therefore need more caffeine to function at the same level, so you sleep even worse, and so on. The main fixes I’ve found for myself are: - Get a lot of exercise and sunlight (if possible) to counteract the caffeine’s effect on sleep. - Resist the urge to have more caffeine than usual when tired. It works well as an enhancer to a well-rested brain, but when used to compensate for sleep deprivation, it’s counter-productive.
  - hesdeadjim 4y ago
    Second point is a great call out. I used to keep shoveling caffeine when I was younger and ended up having huge sleep problems (surprise) and a 26+ circadian rhythm. I’d quit for a month, then be back on it. Eventually I figured out that a solid blast of cold brew in the morning and none the rest of the day worked better —- almost like medicine. Like you say, if I feel I need more then it’s a lifestyle problem.

expertentipp 4y ago

> Like a defense mechanism has been installed in my brain preventing me from hurting myself like that again. I consider this a feature not a bug. Now go focus on important things in life: money, sex, and exercise. Don't overthink. Learning another state management method in new generation of Angular, unwinding a mess created by CV-driven FOMO hysterics, acrobatics in Java design patterns... they're all not worth it.

gear54rus 4y ago
that first one on the list kinda requires it though... and the 2nd one kinda requires the first one haha not that easy is it
- Trasmatta 4y ago
  Maybe not. I put a ridiculous amount of effort into that last project last year. I saved it from disaster, which saved a bunch of people's asses that had fucked it up over and over. Nobody really noticed. My raise this year didn't keep up with inflation. I could have let the project fail like it should have, rather than burning myself out. Maybe I would have received some of the blame, but chances are I'd still just be making the same amount of money if I had just cared less.
  - gear54rus 4y ago
    That's a classic story in a corporate world but I fail to see how is it relevant in the context :) We were talking about 'thinking' being required but nobody said it was sufficient.
    - Trasmatta 4y ago
      I was mostly approaching it from the angle of how overworking and overthinking isn't really necessary to make money. And how doing so can actually lead to burnout.
      - 4y ago

neongodzilla 4y ago

I learned this week that "occupational burnout" [1] often results in the brain developing a trauma response to the idea of returning to the same job/tasks, which is why people will sometimes entirely switch careers. It absolutely is the brain trying to protect itself. Not all forms of burnout results in trauma responses, but they all require extended recovery. Burnout is preventable, but once it has been reached, the damage has been done and rest is required. No joke: 3-6 months is the usual recovery time. Paths to occupational burnout: - No mental rest from work. "Taking it home with you." Often skipping breaks to keep focused. - Jobs that require high amounts of mental processing for long periods (customer service, development, troubleshooting, multitasking, urgent-response). "Brown out" is the stage when you're still capable of functioning in spurts, but your brain/body is sending warning signs (that we have been taught to ignore). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_burnout?wprov=sft...

tayo42 4y ago
3 to 6 months is interesting, it almost exactly lines up with my experience of leaving work for a bit. at around three months, i mostly stopped feeling like shit and angry about some of the things that happened. i felt like i was a baseline. at around 6 months i started to feel actually good. also at 6 months im trying to get back to work and the interview process and job market sucks so im feeling miserable again haha
- arthurcolle 4y ago
  If you ever wanna chat I'm in the same boat. Just keep your head above water and try to think positively. Playing with ChatGPT and the dirty cheap OpenAI APIs has helped me a lot =)
  - ChildOfChaos 4y ago
    Curious, as in it's something you just found interesting or as in it's something you use to talk through your issues with?

coding123 4y ago

That does sound like PTSD. My wife has it and this sounds very similar.

RobRivera 4y ago

it me O.O ive been trying to refactor my health habits to identify a proper solution. hikes, runs, lifts, good dieting, sleep. gave up alcohol. results vary, its not all doom and gloom, but burnout is real

amelius 4y ago

Try sleeping 9-10 hours every night, and see if it becomes less.

bitL 4y ago

Boost B1/B2/B3 vitamin supplementation, take NAD boosters like Niagen or NMN, NAC, potassium and alpha-ketoglutarate to get your neural mitochondria back into shape. Sodium-potassium pump consumes 75% of neuron's energy and too low potassium or too weak mitochondria interferes with it. Too strong mitochondria with low potassium makes it worse as well. NAC is to get rid of metabolic waste, AKG is to make cells more resilient.

Trasmatta 4y ago
Supplementation can only do so much when there are fundamental psychological issues at play too
- bitL 4y ago
  Psychological issues often stem from mitochondria not working properly, i.e. neurons not having enough energy to work well. Fix mitochondria and many psychological problems disappear. See e.g.: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18979198/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18979198/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/mitochondria-may-hold-keys-to-anxiety-and-mental-health-20200810/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/mitochondria-may-hold-keys-to...
  - tayo42 4y ago
    what makes you think that your mitochondria isn't working properly. reading this it sounds like your throwing a bunch of supplements at something and hoping something else happens. it doesn't sound very scientific.
    - bitL 4y ago
      Did you read the second link?
      - tayo42 4y ago
        I don't think that justifies saying its often mitochondira. it doesnt explain why in the first place. it sounds like the depression is caused by an chemical imbalance thing. i dont think you can make sweeping judgements like that and say something like just take some vitamins and youll be cured

sandermvanvliet 4y ago

I have the same problem, need to really push to actually think properly. Not only for work but just in general. I’ve taken a break off work for ~7 months but it seems that wasn’t enough to get back to the level I was used to before. While this sucks, I’m kind of happy I’m apparently not the only one that experiences this

ansc 4y ago

Oh wow. I had the same thing, I hadn't actually heard of anyone else with the same issue. Basically got a panic attack/heavy anxiety/vertigo feeling sometimes when sitting down at the computer to work. It was a year ago, luckily I'm doing better now. Or well, I now hate technology, computers and programming. Shame to lose what you once loved like that. I hope you are well.

NovaDudely 4y ago
This response went a little of the rails... While I am not full luddite (I mean I am on here!) - I fell into a similar funk. I just do not really care for the higher level stuff of computers and technology any more. I love the potential of what we can do with computers but I am also starting to feel that we need to make that connection between the higher mental state of pure information that we use them for today and move more into a state of them interacting with the real world in simple fashion. This is probably a part of my Stallman streak in me but am also more in line with Jaron Lanier. See the potential and then get disappointed by the results. But I am so much more into my cooking, premaculture, just chilling with friends or even by myself down by the river. Yeah, I still have a 9 to 5 job but that whole 'tech' angle is just gone. There are occasional little sparks of interest but they rarely last longer than a half hour. To bring it back to tech in the real world, the idea of a computer monitoring and controlling a little glass house out the back of my house is really cool. But this is something an Ardiuno could do. A lot of things I want to see tech do in my own daily life can potentially be done on an Amiga 1000. I am still into tech but the lens through which I use it has changed a lot.

Y_Y 4y ago

> Strumming my pain with his fingers > Singing my life with his words > Killing me softly with his song In you know that you're describing a feeling not trivial, but especially not unique.

lawn 4y ago

I had the same experience and I think I'm back where I used to be. A year later. I think the key is to take an extended break from work or whatever caused the burnout. Other things may be helpful, but for me this is the only thing that really helped.

shrimp_emoji 4y ago

This is what I experienced in college! A stressful gauntlet of trying my hardest, only to be met with failure, which generated self-loathing and hopelessness, eventually resulted in an emotional "snap". It wasn't gradual; I think I felt it the minute it happened. It was sudden. It was, "Oh, suddenly I can't bring myself to care anymore." It was like dropping a heavy load onto the ground and finally being free. It felt exactly like "a defense mechanism has been installed in my brain preventing me from hurting myself like that again". From then on, I had much more self-compassion, regardless of how things turned out, and I felt emotionally decoupled from my performance or self-perceived intelligence. (Disappointing people still hurts when it hinges on those things due to the personal connection, but impersonal metrics like grades or money or whatever ceased having an effect.) I couldn't work or focus as hard as I did before, when I self-flagellated myself to with shame and insecurity. That seemed like a potent fuel source, like coal or gasoline: powerful but dirty/unhealthy long-term. ;p I don't feel like I have that anymore. I can't really "push through" using it. But I'd say I'm only debuffed like 10 or 20% -- not by a HUGE amount, and what motivation I marshal now feels a lot more sustainable and grounded in my actual, day-to-day well-being. I think learning and striving from a place of self-security and self-compassion feels a LOT better, even with that debuff. (Compared to from a place of "OH GOD I GOTTA DO THIS OR I'M NOT AS GOOD AS THAT PERSON OR GOOD ENOUGH FOR THIS OH GOD OH FUCK[0]".) So, oddly, for me, it felt (and feels) great. >When I have to think hard about something for work I have to push past that and then I feel an intense dissociation while I do. I don't even feel capable of pushing too far past beyond my boundaries. I simply don't. It's kind of a like high-functioning depression for me, where the "can't get out of bed" factor kicks in at like "175% of your typical day's workload". I still "work hard" on things, and people regularly say I do or say that I'm working all the time, but I only hit like 150% max. For me, it's also been several years while only a year for you, however. Maybe that changes things! Also, the "coal" and "gasoline" of insecurity were probably coming from ego. I think that's what broke: my ego. If your starting point wasn't "I have to do this because my ego tells me I should be able to so my self-image is completely wrapped up in it", like mine was, that might also change things. 0: https://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/367/603/ab3.jpg https://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/367/603/ab...

foxandmouse 4y ago

when you’re anxious it becomes hard to think for yourself, and it becomes very easy to let the anxiety make decisions for you. Anxiety can impair creative thinking and lead to decision-making based on survival instincts.

pengaru 4y ago

Anecdata: I've found something as simple as a daily calm stretching routine goes a long way towards keeping the mind+body on board with everything else I call on it to do. Not that I'm some new-age meditation and yoga solve all problems type at all. But stretching in particular is a surprisingly effective mind+body exercise because there's all these safeguards in place to prevent carelessly damaging your muscles and joints. When you increase your flexibility and condition your mind+body to allow reaching these extended positions, it's like you're earning the trust of the system. It's not purely a physical flexibility thing, there's a huge mental component. That seems to translate into greater self-trust elsewhere, be it pushing physical limits of endurance/strength or constant long coding sessions.

gniv 4y ago
I would like to do this, but last time I did it seriously I inflamed my knees. Any videos you recommend?

elcritch 4y ago

I had this after my physics undergrad. When I went back to get a masters in material science my brain just would not do even simple fractions. Luckily I had a friend who knew I was capable of it and pushed me a bit to get through it, but it was exactly like a trauma block. Well doing quantum chemistry research as an undergrad with a crazy Russian professor will do that to yah.

leonhard 4y ago
How did you end up in the end and how did it affect you later if I may ask?
- elcritch 4y ago
  I mostly got back to being capable of doing the math problems again. I had to retake one course and went on acing the final for it with a 98%, etc. Years later I've largely recovered, but I still shy away from basic arithmetic in front of others. However, I was able to get back to where I can solve math problems and even find it fun on the rare occasion I get to. In some ways I have a deeper intuitive understanding than I did as an undergraduate, despite my faculties not being quite as "quick". Actually I rarely need to solve an equation to get enough of the answer I need to solve many problems.