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These articles always miss the most important point. People are buying EVs because they're better. That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, a

These articles always miss the most important point. People are buying EVs because they're better. That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. That market pull allows for an S-curve in the technology, since it reduces market risk for investing in each increase in scale. This is a completely different scenario than what the article suggests, which is that EVs are some kind of medicine for climate change that society is trying to have discipline about. Not so. It's a life or death situation for the auto industry, they don't have a choice. They either join the race or die. This makes most concerns about the transition irrelevant. For example, laws banning gasoline cars by 2035 are as useful as laws banning flip phones by 2015 would have been.

CodeWriter23 4y ago
Sure, don’t believe a scientific organization like the IEEE.
- sbaiddn 4y ago
  They're not a scientific organization. They're the professional association for two specific types of engineer, electrical and electronic.
  - CodeWriter23 4y ago
    Engineers are scientists.
    - sbaiddn 4y ago
      No. They're two different disciplines. There can and is an intersection but the goals of science and engineering are fundamentally different.
logifail 4y ago
> People are buying EVs because they're better This is only true for people with a certain amount of spare money to pay the extra, since EVs are more expensive to purchase. "The new EVs cost an average of $65,041 in November [2022], according to Kelley Blue Book, while gas cars averaged $48,681 that month"[0] [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-vehicles-prices-expensive-cheaper-automakers-batteries-lithium-supply-demand-2022-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-vehicles-prices-exp...
- ericd 4y ago
  The prices have changed a lot since November 2022; Tesla became eligible for the $7,500 Federal tax credit again, and they dropped their prices significantly to qualify. Right now a base Model 3 is around $36k after tax credit.
  - logifail 4y ago
    > Right now a base Model 3 is around $36k after tax credit Not wishing to be obtuse, but is that good? There are a lot of people who would never dream of paying that much for a new car.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      The average new car price is $49k. I can't find info on the median, and I'm sure that is before tax rebates.
      - logifail 4y ago
        > The average new car price is $49k Right, meaning there are a lot of car buyers who pay less than that. In many cases a lot less. I'm one of them(!) The last time I bought a new car I paid $11k, although that was around five years ago. Since then, over many tens of thousands of miles, that vehicle has transported our family from A to B and back again. I'd love to own an EV, but I can't afford to pay a significant premium for one.
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Used car market is for people price sensitive. EVs will trickle down to them eventually as new car buyers upgrade.
        akiselev 4y ago
        If you don't need the extended range of a brand new battery, I think you'll be able to pick up a used one for cheap soon enough. My parents bought a Tesla a few months ago because their Leaf's battery life fell below the point where they could get to work and back reliably on a single charge and they spent months waiting for a battery replacement (they're still waiting). If their supply problems continue, people are going to start dumping more and more used electrical cars and going back to gas or to companies that can actually keep up battery supply like Tesla.
YPCrumble 4y ago
As someone who doesn’t own an electric car, why are they better for the average driver? The only thing I know about is their acceleration but that isn’t important to me personally as I prefer to drive slowly.
- rfrey 4y ago
  Reduced maintenance costs, reduced operating costs.
- DasCorCor 4y ago
  Almost zero maintenance costs (oil changes, less brake usage, etc), cheaper to charge per mile than gasoline in most places. Can charge at home.
- sroussey 4y ago
  They have a lot fewer moving parts… like transmissions, etc.
- dheera 4y ago
  - An order of magnitude safer in terms of fires per mile - Much quieter ride - Much less maintainence, less moving parts, brake pads almost never need to be replaced, no transmission, no oil changes - Internet-connectivity-related features, generally much nicer user experience - You can use them as a mobile office, they can be camped in with the heating on overnight, there's no concept of idling and no carbon monoxide issues with sitting in an EV with the car on as long as you want - If either your home or office has charging, you basically leave full every time
  - imwithstoopid 4y ago
    > Internet-connectivity-related features Potential for remote shutoff is not a feature
    - RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
      Plenty of stupid EV's out there with no internet like mine.
thegrim33 4y ago
Some* people are buying EVs because they're "better". Other people, like me, have zero interest in most modern vehicles, whether EV or not. I have zero interest in a vehicle that gets software updates, or that can choose for itself to slam the breaks on, or that has the ability to upload my data for collection, or that can be remotely disabled, or that isn't built to be maintained easily in my garage, or that has giant touchscreen nonsense. I realize I might be in the minority, but that's OK. I feel that most modern vehicles are designed and built purely to make as much money as possible, rather than to actually a good, reliable, maintainable vehicle. And it works, because the average consume either doesn't care or is easily to manipulate. If you want to convert more people to EVs, start building some that I'm remotely interested in. That and invest into solid state batteries, I'm mostly waiting for that too. Solid state batteries would solve most of the issues with EV tech.
- dboreham 4y ago
  Monthly subscription for heated seats enters the room..
  - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
    I raise you "your car repossesses itself to the dealership when you miss a payment" a la Ford.
    - brewdad 4y ago
      What if, after hearing about the heated seats subscription, Ford patented the self-repossession so that BMW could never implement such a terrible idea?
      - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
        What if Ford patented the idea so they could profit at a later date, with the added benefit of depriving competition of a revenue stream?
- deleted 4y ago
kbos87 4y ago
The market always wins, and the market for EVs is about to be massive. A beautiful thing about capitalism is that when a large market exists, smart people and resources flow toward solving every discrete problem standing in the way of tapping into that opportunity. Yes, some of these challenges exist, but none of them are insurmountable.
- player1234 4y ago
  There would be a huge market for teleporters so why settle for EVs?
fsckboy 4y ago
I understand the point you're making, and I have heard a number of the remarkable advances in "alternative" energy technologies. But I don't think that very many people believe that if the market were left to itself the climate will solve itself.
- logifail 4y ago
  > I don't think that very many people believe that if the market were left to itself the climate will solve itself Even if every single car across all of Europe and the USA were to magically become an EV overnight, the climate will not be "solved", although the power grid would instantaneously collapse. China. India.
tenpies 4y ago
> People are buying EVs because they're better. And absurdly subsidised[1]. And I suspect this figure doesn't include the indirect subsidies, such as exemptions from certain taxes. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1332156/average-ev-financial-subsidies-at-purchase/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1332156/average-ev-finan...
- lostlogin 4y ago
  Oil is heavily subsidised too. And that’s before things like dumping masses of CO2 and other nastiest into the air are factored in. It’s amazing that this can just happen and the cost externalised. More on fossils fuels as a group, but this is disturbing. https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidie...
uc_banana 4y ago
Here in Europe, we will have to buy them because the alternatives will be banned.
- Yizahi 4y ago
  Only new sales, and that can be and likely will be moved farther to the future. If there are almost no charging options (relative to the number of cars) even in big cities, then ban will go nowhere. E.g. if it's year 2035 and I still won't have anywhere to charge EV, then I won't buy it, bans or no. PS: 500-1000 stations per 1000000 of people with hundreds of thousands of cars is nothing really. Sure, they can service some luxury EVs now, and that's about it.
hijinks 4y ago
I'm buying an EV so i never have to change my own oil again
- LBJsPNS 4y ago
  Amen brother.
eek2121 4y ago
I have to disagree. I absolutely have the money to buy a Tesla, but I don't. Why? I don't want a giant button-less touch screen, for starters. Next: I don't want to find myself stranded in my state the second I go a ways away from a major city, which is STILL an issue. (I'm almost 50, my parents are still alive. Their house is nowhere near a charging station. It is literally in the middle of nowhere) Finally, I was close to buying a Tesla before...I wanted to do my part to help avoid Climate change. Then Elon Musk showed he was an asshole. Now I won't touch Tesla because Musk is involved. The fact that Tesla vehicles have suddenly become so pronounced in my state (A certain southeastern state that became internationally known for a school shooting yesterday) is testament to why he is doing things this way. He is just trying to drive new sales and he is seemingly succeeding by buying into republican nonsense. Please don't be that idiot. Don't buy anything sold by Mr Musk. Thanks. I am waiting on Ford to ramp up the F150 electric production, however. Power my house in a power outage? Yes please. Haul what I want? Oh boyyy...
- cyberax 4y ago
  > Next: I don't want to find myself stranded in my state the second I go a ways away from a major city, which is STILL an issue. Unless you live in one of the large northern states, you probably can charge enough for a round-trip in a station along the way: https://supercharge.info https://supercharge.info Or you can do a nice thing and install a charger at your parents' place.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  > Next: I don't want to find myself stranded in my state the second I go a ways away from a major city, which is STILL an issue. Plug into a normal power socket like most EV users do. Edit: it occurs to me that the US is 120V. This can’t help.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    Yep, 120V countries are harder for at-home charging. Japan and USA as the two biggest ones. My car is charging from a normal socket at 2.7kW right now. I could go up to 3.6kW, but the included charger only goes up to 12A and I really don't need the extra charging speed. I get 100-150km charge overnight easily. 5% -> 100% is ~17 hours and I rarely go under 40% in everyday driving even though I charge only to 80% to save the battery as per manufacturer instructions.
syntheweave 4y ago
I agree, it's a "linear extrapolation of business as usual" assessment, the kind that Tony Seba calls out in his talks on disruption. The future of EVs isn't even "battery electric car" so much as it is "new models of transportation". Tesla's business model was in the classic mode of consumer tech where it targets enthusiasts at a premium. The broader auto market, though, is getting nibbled away by a combo of new communication and transport services for each vertical - you can buy or rent an e-bike, hail a Waymo, have Wal-Mart deliver by drone, as well as "just" do more from home, online, and save a trip. Some of these things are early in their deployment but largely proven, others are already widespread but with room to go further. In a disrupted market, you can't pick winners easily, but you should always bet on the new asset classes, because the alternative is a ghoulish non-future.
chaostheory 4y ago
The other point these people are missing is that this allows for flexibility in choosing our fuel. Anything that can be converted into electricity (gasoline, coal, nuclear) can power an EV. It’s not limited to green power sources.
crims0n 4y ago
> People are buying EVs because they're better Define “better”? I need something to haul around a family of eight with enough towing capacity to add some fun to those trips. They don’t even make an EV that ticks those boxes, let alone something “better”.
- nradov 4y ago
  Didn't you hear? People aren't supposed to have large families anymore due to the "carbon footprint" or something.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > I need something to haul around a family of eight with enough towing capacity to add some fun to those trips. I can't decide if this is trolling or not. I mean, it's an EV thread, so this kind of wild edge case gets repeated like it's everyone's use pattern instead of the 1 in a million case it really is. Assuming it's true, there are damn few ICE vehicles that suit your needs either. You're looking at a full size (HD truck size) van. Chevy Express 3500 or something along those lines. Though the few people I know that are in a remotely similar situation break it into two cars rather than try to find an 8 passenger daily driver.
  - crims0n 4y ago
    Not trolling, and yeah went with a Suburban. Point I was trying to make is not everyone’s needs can be satisfied by a sedan with a 300 mile range.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  I think you need a smaller family.
alvah 4y ago
I like driving, and my next car will most likely be an EV, not because it's "better' (whatever that means), but because the Australian Taxation Office has modified the treatment of EVs to make buying anything else financially stupid (if you buy your car through a business entity). Personally I'd rather have a PHEV with ~50km EV-only range at freeway speeds, which would mean using EV-only for ~90% of my driving, while being able to use petrol for towing & longer trips, but (a) there are none available yet with a sensible price / performance mix (in Australia at least), and (b) the ATO has already indicated they will not continue to treat PHEVs favourably in the long-term.
- pugz 4y ago
  I'm also Australian and have ordered an EV a few months ago because of the FBT incentives. You're right that there's an extremely limited selection of vehicles in Australia. Hopefully that changes with the new favourable tax regime. Can you elaborate on (b)? I hadn't read anything that indicated PHEVs are out of favour, but I haven't paid attention since the initial flurry of news.
  - alvah 4y ago
    Sure, it's in https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document?docid=AFS/EV-FBT/00001 https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document?docid=AFS/EV-FBT/00... "Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles - 1 April 2025 onwards From 1 April 2025, a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle will not be considered a zero or low emissions vehicle under FBT law." However, I mis-remembered it - if you buy a PHEV by 1 April 2025 it will remain FBT-free.
    - pugz 4y ago
      Thanks! I had somehow missed that. Feels irresponsible that it hadn't been mentioned in reporting of the changes (or maybe I missed it there too)
ck2 4y ago
As someone who has to walk/ride next to an endless stream of filthy cars and trucks daily, I cannot wait for the road to be at least 50% EV, but not sure if it will happen in my lifetime. Doesn't solve the fine dust brake particles flying around at every intersection (many with asbestos) but it will radically reduce diesel particulates and other exhaust nastiness.
- ozzydave 4y ago
  Should help with brake dust too, EVs will only use friction brakes when regenerating won’t slow the car enough, which isn’t common.
thayne 4y ago
Better in some ways, worse in others. If you are just driving around town, plugging in at night is probably better than having to fill up at a gas station. If you are driving your family, including young children halfway across the country to visit in-laws, having to stop for hours while waiting for your car to charge is much, much worse. Even if charging stations become ubiquitous.
- ugh123 4y ago
  > having to stop for hours while waiting for your car to charge is much, much worse So will this never get any better? Will it still take hours to charge, 5 years from now? What was it like 5 years ago?
  - thayne 4y ago
    I'm sure it will get better. But the parent said EVs are better now. My point is they aren't for everyone. I purchased a vehicle in recent past, I looked into getting an EV, and came to the conclusion that none of the options, especially ones I could buy used, would fit my needs. Five years from now? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. And I really hope I won't need a new car that soon.
  - bseto 4y ago
    your username says it all. ugh is what I always think when someone complains about roadtrips. I personally do not have kids, but I love roadtripping my Tesla. With my ICE car, I used to drive as fast as possible, as long as possible thinking that's the way, but I'd also end up so burnt out after 8 or 9 hours of driving. I'm going to make a 12 hour drive this weekend, it'll end up being around 13 hours with a Tesla, but my Fiancé and I are making a list cool things we'll do when we make the stops, and we'll actually enjoy making the trip over the 13 hours. Each stop will be around 15-20mins every 3 hours which is perfect for getting a stretch, snacking, or going to the washroom. I'll also have the newest updated FSD11 for the highway which has been a large improvement over the previous autopilot on highways - the biggest for me is that it now bias's over to the left (or right), if I'm passing a large semi (or if the semi is passing me)
- 4y ago
lsh123 4y ago
“People are buying EVs because they are better…” Right, exactly the reason why governments around the world first try to subsidize EVs through various schemes (tax rebates, discounts, etc), and then it doesn’t work - threaten to stop non-EV sales in 10 years. All of that because the EVs are a better product that consumers are screaming for. Right.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  This is not a good argument. EVs are expensive. But having electric vehicles clearly has an advantage. And it may be in the government’s interest to drive adoption. However I disagree with the GP’s statement that people are not buying them as a solution to climate change. People definitely believe they are part of the solution. I’ve heard of people installing induction stoves to remove their reliance on gas.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >This is not a good argument. EVs are expensive. But having electric vehicles clearly has an advantage. And it may be in the government’s interest to drive adoption. That's OK (ignoring all the other environmental costs of EVs and the continued car use, as opposed to public transit). But it doens't fit with the "they buy them because they're better/fancier/cooler" narrative. As another person writes below: "I like driving, and my next car will most likely be an EV, not because it's "better' (whatever that means), but because the Australian Taxation Office has modified the treatment of EVs to make buying anything else financially stupid."
- pornel 4y ago
  This is normal to increase supply. They're expensive partly because they're produced in smaller volumes. Economies of scale haven't made them cheap yet, so subsidies are needed to break this chicken-egg problem. Rebates also help overcome the higher upfront cost. The total cost of ownership of EVs can be lower than an ICE car due to cheaper energy and low maintenance, but the upfront cost is a barrier. And then there's the fact that a lot of people don't know how good EVs are, so they base their purchasing decisions on myths and assumptions, and need a push to even try them.
baxtr 4y ago
We had a Tesla Y for 6 months and returned it. I really wanted to me to keep the car. But in the end we couldn’t. The range was simply not good enough for longer trips. We returned it for a normal car and are quite happy with the range.
- brewdad 4y ago
  Are you a single car family? Until battery tech allows for either huge range or recharging as quickly as a gas car, I still see the utility in owning an EV for commuting and around town and a gas car for road trips. It doesn’t have to be either/or for most.
  - baxtr 4y ago
    Yes we are… we live in a big city and can’t afford having two cars due to parking restrictions. Small commutes are done with our electric bike.
aktuel 4y ago
For most people on the planet who drive gasoline cars ATM, EVs are still too expensive and impractical.
unixhero 4y ago
No. Most Buy electric vehicles because operating cost/cost of ownership year on year is 70%-80% lower than internal combustion engines.
paulmendoza 4y ago
Yes, exactly!
drvdevd 4y ago
I can say I read about 1/4 of the way through the article and although I’m interested in the authors research, I did get the feeling the author hadn’t actually driven an EV - which may not be true, but I agree the author didn’t touch on the idea that EVs may simply offer a superior driving experience.
paganel 4y ago
> People are buying EVs because they're better. You should have added "people with money". Regular people don't have the luxury of paying up to 50% more for a car that often times is inferior to what they currently have.
jjav 4y ago
> For example, laws banning gasoline cars by 2035 are as useful as laws banning flip phones by 2015 would have been. If that were true, there wouldn't be any such laws in discussions and in the books. Just like there never was a law to ban flip phones, people just migrated on their own. There are lots of incentives to push people to EVs such as federal tax breaks and HOV lane access.
cm2187 4y ago
you wouldn't need legislation to ban ICE if electric vehicles were better for everyone. Many people need range. Or cheap cars.
yafbum 4y ago
As an EV owner, I completely agree that they are better cars to drive for most people. Handles better, cheaper to run, more fun to drive, and range isn't an issue unless you drive all day to far places. But Until the infrastructure and manufacturing scale are bootstrapped, they can only reasonably compete with the help of subsidies. And You can also say that ICE cars, as a component of the hydrocarbon industry, get a lot of subsidy from the insane amounts of military cost deployed to ensure a steady oil supply. Altogether societal beliefs that get people elected are having a strong influence in the way things go. In spite of EVs being better cars, if society decided to tilt back the balance of support towards ICEs, I think the market would snap back pretty quickly.
bmitc 4y ago
> That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. Aesthetics are one thing, although I find Teslas to be quite boring and even outdated, but the claim regarding Tesla's functionality is heavily debatable. Tesla is basically rediscovering why cars are the way they are and also struggling with quality.
- simondotau 4y ago
  > and also struggling with quality. The problem is that the media's endless obsession with Tesla means that criticism of their products become mainstream news, whereas criticisms of the average Toyota or Ford are never more than bullet points in car reviews. A few key points which contradict the assertion of Tesla "struggling with quality": • Tesla products consistently get high satisfaction ratings by their customers. [0] (Perhaps panel gap consistency isn't as high on the list of customer importance as car reviewers think it is?) • Tesla products have been consistently rated as among the safest cars on the road with respect to crash-worthiness. Most notably the recent assessment of the Model Y by Euro NCAP. [1] Maybe the panel gaps aren't perfect, but the chassis under the skin seems to have been well engineered. • Toyota, the supposed world leaders in car manufacturing, recently admitted — in public no less — that the Model Y is "truly a work of art". [2] [0] https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfie... [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/01/the-tesla-model-y-earned-europes-highest-safety-score-in-history/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/01/the-tesla-model-y-earne... [2] https://thedriven.io/2023/03/01/toyota-admits-tesla-model-y-is-truly-a-work-of-art-as-it-rethinks-ev-strategy/ https://thedriven.io/2023/03/01/toyota-admits-tesla-model-y-...
  - bmitc 4y ago
    Tesla ranks amongst the lowest in reliability in Consumer Reports. Tesla has also intentionally underreported warranty fixes by not labeling them as such. Tesla has a poor reputation for fit and finish. Consumer satisfaction is going to be heavily skewed and untrustworthy in a case like Tesla where one is buying a premium vehicle with a lot of hype and fraudulent marketing. I wouldn't associate it with quality. Personally, I have sat in several Teslas. They all feel cheaper than my Kia. Safety is also loosely correlated with what is meant by quality. And another manufacturer's, particularly one going through a lot of drama and turmoil regarding EVs, anonymous sentiment is irrelevant.
DrBazza 4y ago
"Better" how? I want a range the same as petrol car, with a recharging time the same as it takes me to pump gasoline into the tank. Until I have that, EVs aren't 'better' for me in any way. I drive 300 miles point to point several times a month and with an EV the journey time is an hour longer, and definitely not 'better'. That's not to say that EVs won't improve, but by 2035 will we have 700 mile range EVs that charge to 100% in 3-4 minutes? The chassis, interior, and "technology" in combustion engine cars is largely the same for every manufacturer that produce EV + internal combustion because of economies of scale. So that's not a unique selling point.
- mrjin 4y ago
  What you want might never happen, especially the charging time part. If you pull out a calculator, you will find out the current required （under domestic voltage) to charge a 80kWh battery in 2 hours is already staggering. In 3-4 minutes at your home? I don't see it anytime soon.
- concordDance 4y ago
  Current Teslas will get you 50% charge in half an hour. Is adding 25 mins to your 5 hour journey really that big a deal?
  - DrBazza 4y ago
    In the UK, in 2023, yes. I drive a part motorway, part countryside route that has very, very, few EV charging points, and on many occasions they've been full or broken, or both. EV cars are good for cities and city to city along motorways. Anywhere else, not so much.
    - Reason077 4y ago
      The UK charging experience has improved rapidly in the the past few years and will continue to do so. That is, buy an EV today and it's only going to improve tomorrow as more and better charging infrastructure is rolled out.
  - 4y ago
basisword 4y ago
>> People are buying EVs because they're better. That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. As someone who rode in a Tesla Model Y for the first time last week I disagree. It was horrible. Inside it was very spacious but felt plasticky and cold (I did like the glass roof through). The worst bit though was the ride. Every small bump was felt like a pothole. And within five minutes I felt motion sickness due to the persistent bouncing around. I can’t say anything about drivability (this was 30mins in an Uber) but if I see my Uber driver is in a Model Y next time, I’ll happily cancel and wait for someone else.
- rob74 4y ago
  All of this has less to do with fundamental problems with electric vehicles and more to do with your opinion on a particular car (fortunately there are other electric car makers besides Tesla) and the driving style of your driver (granted, the stronger acceleration of an EV combined with an aggressive driving style or jerky steering can lead to a bad experience for passengers).
  - basisword 4y ago
    Yes, but the OP’s example of an excellent electric car was a Tesla so sharing my experience on that specifically.
jesterson 4y ago
> People are buying EVs because they're better. No, they are not. It may be for some particular use cases, but generalisation is naturally bad idea. Objectively they are vastly inferior to combustion engine cars (unless we bring Tesla to comparison). Low mileage, slow refuelling, very low lifetime. Slow acceleration. If they were better as you state, governments wouldn't come with all sorts of subsidies to coerce people into buying EV. Market would correct itself and combustion engines would be a part of the past. But it's not happening, and I assert would never happen in future.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> People are buying EVs because they're better Disclaimer: I am ignoring the environmental implications here. Arguably they are not from many different POVs. They are better for car makers, they can market them at any price they like and States all over the globe are subsidizing them, so that people can afford them. In my Country buying an EV means paying 33% more for the same exact car, but with less autonomy, which is not a great proposition for the majority of the people living here that need a car. The real solution would be removing cars from the streets as much as we can, which is about 50% of them more or less. To follow on your analogy: saving car industry by switching to EVs would be like saving horse carriage industry by putting an engine on them in 1920.
oxfordmale 4y ago
Ignoring the hype, Tesla cars aren't better objectively from a purely functional approach. If I fill my current vehicle with diesel, I can drive 500 miles, fill up the tank in less than 15 minutes and drive back. With a Tesla or any other EV, I will spend several hours at charging points. EVs are great for local rat runs to the supermarket or nearby restaurants. However, they are still painful if you want to travel more than 100 miles. Battery technology improvements will arrive. However, it takes time to productionise research prototypes. During one of my holidays, I drove a self-charge BMW rental. It technically could still be sold after 2035. However, it had an electric range of less than 50 km before it switched to petrol. Car manufacturers will lobby for such loopholes to be allowed well beyond 2035.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  > Tesla cars aren't better objectively from a purely functional approach. I think this isn't as clear cut as it might sound. It depends on the usage pattern, local fuel cost etc. I drive a diesel too, but my next car will be an EV. If you have cheap gas and/or regularly travel so far you need to charge on the road, then both the economy and convenience goes down the drain very quickly. But if like me you have electricity at $0.10/kWh, you have 3x25A wires to your house, you can charge in your driveway, you very rarely need to charge on the road, and the diesel price is $10 per US gallon then the economy and convenience is completely different and much more favors EV.
- jnsaff2 4y ago
  This is your uninformed opinion. I own one, I have never spent more than an hour waiting for any charge. The waiting time is also not wasted, I'll go eat or work on the laptop. Cumulatively over the year I have definitely spent less waiting at a charging station than I did with the fossil car I had previously. Most of the time it's just charged itself overnight when I slept. It is SO MUCH CHEAPER to drive the EV than it is the ICE. Fuel cost ALONE pays for the monthly payments. Let alone having a modern car, better ergonomics, etc.
  - ChancyChance 4y ago
    Do you hear yourself? You are admitting you have to stop for an hour any time you do a long trip, and apologetically claiming you can find something useful to do in that time. What kind of bs propaganda did you swallow? When I’m doing a road trip I don’t want to add one hour minumum per every few hundred miles, assuming I can find a charging station. Range limitations are the second reason why people don’t buy EVs, behind required home infrastructure expenses (a hidden one time tax). My partner and I both drive cars that are almost 20 years old, so do our parents. Oil changes, tires, and a monthly fill up for $60 or trip fillup of $120 for about 700 miles. That’s it. Todays EVs are like cell phones from 1985 with styling that appeals to the Pokémon generation.
benj111 4y ago
I disagree that laws banning IC cars are useless. It forces car companies to plan for a certain future, not a possible one. That leads to an increased line up of cars for consumers, increases competition allowing consumers to afford those cars. It also forces everyone to thing about charging infrastructure etc.
andrepd 4y ago
> which is that EVs are some kind of medicine for climate change that society is trying to have discipline about The obvious point, of course, is that EVs will not solve climate change or anything close. Mass automobile ownership has 99 problems, of which EVs solve 1. The key to better quality of life, as well as stronger mitigation of climate change, is boring stuff like trains and trams and bike lanes and walkable cities. Cars are great (1) for rural areas and (2) when they are at maximum occupancy. Anywhere else, especially cities, and they are a disaster at almost any level you can think of.
ddevault 4y ago
I mean the bigger issue is that cars and trucks aren't going away and EVs are clearly important, but the much more important problem is investing in public transit, especially in the United States. We don't need everyone to "transition" to EVs -- we need everyone to transition to trains.
- mwcampbell 4y ago
  This comment seems at odds with one you posted yesterday, which said that individual responsibility for climate change doesn't extend beyond the voting booth. But unless I'm misunderstanding this latest comment, it suggests that we individuals are wrong to want private transportation, that we should be happy with taking whatever public transportation is available and walking the rest of the way. Even when public transportation is expanded as you say it should be, that still won't be the same as taking a car all the way from one building to another. Assuming that the point is to put an end to the negative impact of private transportation on the climate, this suggests that we are in fact responsible for changing our lifestyle to address climate change. Am I misunderstanding?
  - ddevault 4y ago
    Prioritization of public transit over EVs is a policy issue which is facilitated at the voting booth. We need fewer EV subsidies (or targeted to more important EV markets) and greater public investment in transit. I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy a new EV in favor of taking your city's crappy bus service and walking a mile in the rain. I'm saying that your city should invest in making the bus a better choice than your car so that you want to use it; society should set up the incentives accordingly. As the saying goes, public transit succeeds not when the poor can afford the bus, but when the wealthy choose the bus.
    - mwcampbell 4y ago
      Then I'm skeptical about whether public transit can actually succeed. Why would the wealthy ever choose the bus over taking their own vehicle all the way from point A to point B? Does public transit succeed according to that criterion in countries other than the US? Is it necessary to somehow force the wealthy to do what is less convenient for the individual?
timcobb 4y ago
> People are buying EVs because they're better How are they better? Not obvious at all to me.
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  No gas stations, huge in cold climates. Instant acceleration which is physically impossible in ICE cars. Quite and no exhaust, so you can run them in a garage for preheating/cooling. Electricity is cheaper than gas. Less maintenance. A lot of the advantages are dependant on a garage and mostly using the car to get around town and not road trips. If those don't apply to you then yea ICE cars are probably better.
TRiG_Ireland 4y ago
EV's are not a solution to climate change. They don't exist to save the planet, or humanity. They exist to save the car industry.
Reason077 4y ago
> "laws banning gasoline cars by 2035 are as useful as laws banning flip phones by 2015 would have been." These laws serve to create certainty around boardroom tables, which helps speed up investment decisions. For an automotive industry executive, it's easier to commit billions to convert your factories to producing EVs when you're not bothered by nagging "but what if there is still demand for combustion vehicles in the 2030s?" questions.
- gitfan86 4y ago
  The executives get 90%+ of their compensation before 2035. So they care very little about the health of the company in 2035. What this means in practice is that companies like GM will say "We are going electric very soon" but not actually accomplish much. Here is an article from 2012. You can find very similar ones every 2 years since then. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-gm-evs/gm-aims-to-build-500000-electric-technology-vehicles-a-year-idUKBRE8AD1EY20121114 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-gm-evs/gm-aims-to-build-5...
  - Reason077 4y ago
    The laws aren't just a single cliff-edge, but set targets to be achieved along the way. For example, Europe demands zero emissions by 2035, but also requires each automaker to reduce emissions by 55% between 2021 and 2030. In practice, that means the majority of vehicles sold will need to be electric by 2030. That means every car company needs to be taking action now to avoid facing billions in fines in coming years.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    That’s not how careers work. You don’t get promoted by saying “I’ll do something very soon about that” and doing nothing. You get promoted by having something interesting to show to your bosses who can then look good to their bosses. With a clear objective set preparing to meet it is a clear way of getting promoted. The issue will be more that people prefer getting promoted by doing a bunch of stuff that looks like it’ll get you over the line, but often isn’t. I’m sure we will make a lot of progress by 2035, but it won’t be anywhere near “done”
Hamuko 4y ago
>That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. Could've fooled me. Firstly almost all Teslas look like ugly frogs to me. And a Tesla Model S was also the first time I've noticed a car have misaligned front and rear doors while walking past a car. I'm also not sure about the functionally part, unless it's just "electric motors are nice". I still see Tesla owners complain about the lack of CarPlay. Then there's the various issues that have come up. The ones that I remember: seatbelts falling off, steering wheels falling off, doorhandles breaking, doorhandles being inaccessible due to ice buildup, non-automotive LCD panels breaking inside hot/cold cars, and infotainment system bricking eMMC chips due to excessive logging. The self-driving features also look suspect, with some cars being unable to parallel park themselves, causing some weird behaviour on road, or crashing into obstacles when using the summoning.
esalman 4y ago
A Tesla is not attractive to me, neither aesthetically or functionally. I find my Corolla more attractive, for obvious reasons.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
> That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. They're not, though. They make cheap plasticky ugly cars with an interior fit and finish on a par with 1990s Eastern Bloc cars, and expect you to somehow cope with a massive touchscreen while trying to drive, and then charge "proper car" prices.
JohnFen 4y ago
> People are buying EVs because they're better. Doesn't this depend on the criteria by which you're measuring "better"? Personally, aside from reduced climate impact, they aren't better on any any count that matters to me, and are worse on a few.
PaulHoule 4y ago
For some people range matters. It’s particularly an issue for the electric trucks that Detroit is making big noises about. For regulators EVs have been a deal with the devil since they are driving affordable and efficient cars (e.g. Toyota Corolla class) out of the market. in exchange for big promises about the EV future, Detroit is free to sell all the oversized trucks and SUVS they want today.

CodeWriter23 4y ago

Sure, don’t believe a scientific organization like the IEEE.

sbaiddn 4y ago
They're not a scientific organization. They're the professional association for two specific types of engineer, electrical and electronic.
- CodeWriter23 4y ago
  Engineers are scientists.
  - sbaiddn 4y ago
    No. They're two different disciplines. There can and is an intersection but the goals of science and engineering are fundamentally different.

logifail 4y ago

> People are buying EVs because they're better This is only true for people with a certain amount of spare money to pay the extra, since EVs are more expensive to purchase. "The new EVs cost an average of $65,041 in November [2022], according to Kelley Blue Book, while gas cars averaged $48,681 that month"[0] [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-vehicles-prices-expensive-cheaper-automakers-batteries-lithium-supply-demand-2022-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-vehicles-prices-exp...

ericd 4y ago
The prices have changed a lot since November 2022; Tesla became eligible for the $7,500 Federal tax credit again, and they dropped their prices significantly to qualify. Right now a base Model 3 is around $36k after tax credit.
- logifail 4y ago
  > Right now a base Model 3 is around $36k after tax credit Not wishing to be obtuse, but is that good? There are a lot of people who would never dream of paying that much for a new car.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    The average new car price is $49k. I can't find info on the median, and I'm sure that is before tax rebates.
    - logifail 4y ago
      > The average new car price is $49k Right, meaning there are a lot of car buyers who pay less than that. In many cases a lot less. I'm one of them(!) The last time I bought a new car I paid $11k, although that was around five years ago. Since then, over many tens of thousands of miles, that vehicle has transported our family from A to B and back again. I'd love to own an EV, but I can't afford to pay a significant premium for one.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Used car market is for people price sensitive. EVs will trickle down to them eventually as new car buyers upgrade.
      - akiselev 4y ago
        If you don't need the extended range of a brand new battery, I think you'll be able to pick up a used one for cheap soon enough. My parents bought a Tesla a few months ago because their Leaf's battery life fell below the point where they could get to work and back reliably on a single charge and they spent months waiting for a battery replacement (they're still waiting). If their supply problems continue, people are going to start dumping more and more used electrical cars and going back to gas or to companies that can actually keep up battery supply like Tesla.

YPCrumble 4y ago

As someone who doesn’t own an electric car, why are they better for the average driver? The only thing I know about is their acceleration but that isn’t important to me personally as I prefer to drive slowly.

rfrey 4y ago
Reduced maintenance costs, reduced operating costs.
DasCorCor 4y ago
Almost zero maintenance costs (oil changes, less brake usage, etc), cheaper to charge per mile than gasoline in most places. Can charge at home.
sroussey 4y ago
They have a lot fewer moving parts… like transmissions, etc.
dheera 4y ago
- An order of magnitude safer in terms of fires per mile - Much quieter ride - Much less maintainence, less moving parts, brake pads almost never need to be replaced, no transmission, no oil changes - Internet-connectivity-related features, generally much nicer user experience - You can use them as a mobile office, they can be camped in with the heating on overnight, there's no concept of idling and no carbon monoxide issues with sitting in an EV with the car on as long as you want - If either your home or office has charging, you basically leave full every time
- imwithstoopid 4y ago
  > Internet-connectivity-related features Potential for remote shutoff is not a feature
  - RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
    Plenty of stupid EV's out there with no internet like mine.

thegrim33 4y ago

Some* people are buying EVs because they're "better". Other people, like me, have zero interest in most modern vehicles, whether EV or not. I have zero interest in a vehicle that gets software updates, or that can choose for itself to slam the breaks on, or that has the ability to upload my data for collection, or that can be remotely disabled, or that isn't built to be maintained easily in my garage, or that has giant touchscreen nonsense. I realize I might be in the minority, but that's OK. I feel that most modern vehicles are designed and built purely to make as much money as possible, rather than to actually a good, reliable, maintainable vehicle. And it works, because the average consume either doesn't care or is easily to manipulate. If you want to convert more people to EVs, start building some that I'm remotely interested in. That and invest into solid state batteries, I'm mostly waiting for that too. Solid state batteries would solve most of the issues with EV tech.

dboreham 4y ago
Monthly subscription for heated seats enters the room..
- CatWChainsaw 4y ago
  I raise you "your car repossesses itself to the dealership when you miss a payment" a la Ford.
  - brewdad 4y ago
    What if, after hearing about the heated seats subscription, Ford patented the self-repossession so that BMW could never implement such a terrible idea?
    - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
      What if Ford patented the idea so they could profit at a later date, with the added benefit of depriving competition of a revenue stream?
deleted 4y ago

kbos87 4y ago

The market always wins, and the market for EVs is about to be massive. A beautiful thing about capitalism is that when a large market exists, smart people and resources flow toward solving every discrete problem standing in the way of tapping into that opportunity. Yes, some of these challenges exist, but none of them are insurmountable.

player1234 4y ago
There would be a huge market for teleporters so why settle for EVs?

fsckboy 4y ago

I understand the point you're making, and I have heard a number of the remarkable advances in "alternative" energy technologies. But I don't think that very many people believe that if the market were left to itself the climate will solve itself.

logifail 4y ago
> I don't think that very many people believe that if the market were left to itself the climate will solve itself Even if every single car across all of Europe and the USA were to magically become an EV overnight, the climate will not be "solved", although the power grid would instantaneously collapse. China. India.

tenpies 4y ago

> People are buying EVs because they're better. And absurdly subsidised[1]. And I suspect this figure doesn't include the indirect subsidies, such as exemptions from certain taxes. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1332156/average-ev-financial-subsidies-at-purchase/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1332156/average-ev-finan...

lostlogin 4y ago
Oil is heavily subsidised too. And that’s before things like dumping masses of CO2 and other nastiest into the air are factored in. It’s amazing that this can just happen and the cost externalised. More on fossils fuels as a group, but this is disturbing. https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidie...

uc_banana 4y ago

Here in Europe, we will have to buy them because the alternatives will be banned.

Yizahi 4y ago
Only new sales, and that can be and likely will be moved farther to the future. If there are almost no charging options (relative to the number of cars) even in big cities, then ban will go nowhere. E.g. if it's year 2035 and I still won't have anywhere to charge EV, then I won't buy it, bans or no. PS: 500-1000 stations per 1000000 of people with hundreds of thousands of cars is nothing really. Sure, they can service some luxury EVs now, and that's about it.

hijinks 4y ago

I'm buying an EV so i never have to change my own oil again

LBJsPNS 4y ago
Amen brother.

eek2121 4y ago

I have to disagree. I absolutely have the money to buy a Tesla, but I don't. Why? I don't want a giant button-less touch screen, for starters. Next: I don't want to find myself stranded in my state the second I go a ways away from a major city, which is STILL an issue. (I'm almost 50, my parents are still alive. Their house is nowhere near a charging station. It is literally in the middle of nowhere) Finally, I was close to buying a Tesla before...I wanted to do my part to help avoid Climate change. Then Elon Musk showed he was an asshole. Now I won't touch Tesla because Musk is involved. The fact that Tesla vehicles have suddenly become so pronounced in my state (A certain southeastern state that became internationally known for a school shooting yesterday) is testament to why he is doing things this way. He is just trying to drive new sales and he is seemingly succeeding by buying into republican nonsense. Please don't be that idiot. Don't buy anything sold by Mr Musk. Thanks. I am waiting on Ford to ramp up the F150 electric production, however. Power my house in a power outage? Yes please. Haul what I want? Oh boyyy...

cyberax 4y ago
> Next: I don't want to find myself stranded in my state the second I go a ways away from a major city, which is STILL an issue. Unless you live in one of the large northern states, you probably can charge enough for a round-trip in a station along the way: https://supercharge.info https://supercharge.info Or you can do a nice thing and install a charger at your parents' place.
lostlogin 4y ago
> Next: I don't want to find myself stranded in my state the second I go a ways away from a major city, which is STILL an issue. Plug into a normal power socket like most EV users do. Edit: it occurs to me that the US is 120V. This can’t help.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  Yep, 120V countries are harder for at-home charging. Japan and USA as the two biggest ones. My car is charging from a normal socket at 2.7kW right now. I could go up to 3.6kW, but the included charger only goes up to 12A and I really don't need the extra charging speed. I get 100-150km charge overnight easily. 5% -> 100% is ~17 hours and I rarely go under 40% in everyday driving even though I charge only to 80% to save the battery as per manufacturer instructions.

syntheweave 4y ago

I agree, it's a "linear extrapolation of business as usual" assessment, the kind that Tony Seba calls out in his talks on disruption. The future of EVs isn't even "battery electric car" so much as it is "new models of transportation". Tesla's business model was in the classic mode of consumer tech where it targets enthusiasts at a premium. The broader auto market, though, is getting nibbled away by a combo of new communication and transport services for each vertical - you can buy or rent an e-bike, hail a Waymo, have Wal-Mart deliver by drone, as well as "just" do more from home, online, and save a trip. Some of these things are early in their deployment but largely proven, others are already widespread but with room to go further. In a disrupted market, you can't pick winners easily, but you should always bet on the new asset classes, because the alternative is a ghoulish non-future.

chaostheory 4y ago

The other point these people are missing is that this allows for flexibility in choosing our fuel. Anything that can be converted into electricity (gasoline, coal, nuclear) can power an EV. It’s not limited to green power sources.

crims0n 4y ago

> People are buying EVs because they're better Define “better”? I need something to haul around a family of eight with enough towing capacity to add some fun to those trips. They don’t even make an EV that ticks those boxes, let alone something “better”.

nradov 4y ago
Didn't you hear? People aren't supposed to have large families anymore due to the "carbon footprint" or something.
rootusrootus 4y ago
> I need something to haul around a family of eight with enough towing capacity to add some fun to those trips. I can't decide if this is trolling or not. I mean, it's an EV thread, so this kind of wild edge case gets repeated like it's everyone's use pattern instead of the 1 in a million case it really is. Assuming it's true, there are damn few ICE vehicles that suit your needs either. You're looking at a full size (HD truck size) van. Chevy Express 3500 or something along those lines. Though the few people I know that are in a remotely similar situation break it into two cars rather than try to find an 8 passenger daily driver.
- crims0n 4y ago
  Not trolling, and yeah went with a Suburban. Point I was trying to make is not everyone’s needs can be satisfied by a sedan with a 300 mile range.
HDThoreaun 4y ago
I think you need a smaller family.

alvah 4y ago

I like driving, and my next car will most likely be an EV, not because it's "better' (whatever that means), but because the Australian Taxation Office has modified the treatment of EVs to make buying anything else financially stupid (if you buy your car through a business entity). Personally I'd rather have a PHEV with ~50km EV-only range at freeway speeds, which would mean using EV-only for ~90% of my driving, while being able to use petrol for towing & longer trips, but (a) there are none available yet with a sensible price / performance mix (in Australia at least), and (b) the ATO has already indicated they will not continue to treat PHEVs favourably in the long-term.

pugz 4y ago
I'm also Australian and have ordered an EV a few months ago because of the FBT incentives. You're right that there's an extremely limited selection of vehicles in Australia. Hopefully that changes with the new favourable tax regime. Can you elaborate on (b)? I hadn't read anything that indicated PHEVs are out of favour, but I haven't paid attention since the initial flurry of news.
- alvah 4y ago
  Sure, it's in https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document?docid=AFS/EV-FBT/00001 https://www.ato.gov.au/law/view/document?docid=AFS/EV-FBT/00... "Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles - 1 April 2025 onwards From 1 April 2025, a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle will not be considered a zero or low emissions vehicle under FBT law." However, I mis-remembered it - if you buy a PHEV by 1 April 2025 it will remain FBT-free.
  - pugz 4y ago
    Thanks! I had somehow missed that. Feels irresponsible that it hadn't been mentioned in reporting of the changes (or maybe I missed it there too)

ck2 4y ago

As someone who has to walk/ride next to an endless stream of filthy cars and trucks daily, I cannot wait for the road to be at least 50% EV, but not sure if it will happen in my lifetime. Doesn't solve the fine dust brake particles flying around at every intersection (many with asbestos) but it will radically reduce diesel particulates and other exhaust nastiness.

ozzydave 4y ago
Should help with brake dust too, EVs will only use friction brakes when regenerating won’t slow the car enough, which isn’t common.

thayne 4y ago

Better in some ways, worse in others. If you are just driving around town, plugging in at night is probably better than having to fill up at a gas station. If you are driving your family, including young children halfway across the country to visit in-laws, having to stop for hours while waiting for your car to charge is much, much worse. Even if charging stations become ubiquitous.

ugh123 4y ago
> having to stop for hours while waiting for your car to charge is much, much worse So will this never get any better? Will it still take hours to charge, 5 years from now? What was it like 5 years ago?
- thayne 4y ago
  I'm sure it will get better. But the parent said EVs are better now. My point is they aren't for everyone. I purchased a vehicle in recent past, I looked into getting an EV, and came to the conclusion that none of the options, especially ones I could buy used, would fit my needs. Five years from now? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. And I really hope I won't need a new car that soon.
- bseto 4y ago
  your username says it all. ugh is what I always think when someone complains about roadtrips. I personally do not have kids, but I love roadtripping my Tesla. With my ICE car, I used to drive as fast as possible, as long as possible thinking that's the way, but I'd also end up so burnt out after 8 or 9 hours of driving. I'm going to make a 12 hour drive this weekend, it'll end up being around 13 hours with a Tesla, but my Fiancé and I are making a list cool things we'll do when we make the stops, and we'll actually enjoy making the trip over the 13 hours. Each stop will be around 15-20mins every 3 hours which is perfect for getting a stretch, snacking, or going to the washroom. I'll also have the newest updated FSD11 for the highway which has been a large improvement over the previous autopilot on highways - the biggest for me is that it now bias's over to the left (or right), if I'm passing a large semi (or if the semi is passing me)
4y ago

lsh123 4y ago

“People are buying EVs because they are better…” Right, exactly the reason why governments around the world first try to subsidize EVs through various schemes (tax rebates, discounts, etc), and then it doesn’t work - threaten to stop non-EV sales in 10 years. All of that because the EVs are a better product that consumers are screaming for. Right.

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
This is not a good argument. EVs are expensive. But having electric vehicles clearly has an advantage. And it may be in the government’s interest to drive adoption. However I disagree with the GP’s statement that people are not buying them as a solution to climate change. People definitely believe they are part of the solution. I’ve heard of people installing induction stoves to remove their reliance on gas.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >This is not a good argument. EVs are expensive. But having electric vehicles clearly has an advantage. And it may be in the government’s interest to drive adoption. That's OK (ignoring all the other environmental costs of EVs and the continued car use, as opposed to public transit). But it doens't fit with the "they buy them because they're better/fancier/cooler" narrative. As another person writes below: "I like driving, and my next car will most likely be an EV, not because it's "better' (whatever that means), but because the Australian Taxation Office has modified the treatment of EVs to make buying anything else financially stupid."
pornel 4y ago
This is normal to increase supply. They're expensive partly because they're produced in smaller volumes. Economies of scale haven't made them cheap yet, so subsidies are needed to break this chicken-egg problem. Rebates also help overcome the higher upfront cost. The total cost of ownership of EVs can be lower than an ICE car due to cheaper energy and low maintenance, but the upfront cost is a barrier. And then there's the fact that a lot of people don't know how good EVs are, so they base their purchasing decisions on myths and assumptions, and need a push to even try them.

baxtr 4y ago

We had a Tesla Y for 6 months and returned it. I really wanted to me to keep the car. But in the end we couldn’t. The range was simply not good enough for longer trips. We returned it for a normal car and are quite happy with the range.

brewdad 4y ago
Are you a single car family? Until battery tech allows for either huge range or recharging as quickly as a gas car, I still see the utility in owning an EV for commuting and around town and a gas car for road trips. It doesn’t have to be either/or for most.
- baxtr 4y ago
  Yes we are… we live in a big city and can’t afford having two cars due to parking restrictions. Small commutes are done with our electric bike.

aktuel 4y ago

For most people on the planet who drive gasoline cars ATM, EVs are still too expensive and impractical.

unixhero 4y ago

No. Most Buy electric vehicles because operating cost/cost of ownership year on year is 70%-80% lower than internal combustion engines.

paulmendoza 4y ago

Yes, exactly!

drvdevd 4y ago

I can say I read about 1/4 of the way through the article and although I’m interested in the authors research, I did get the feeling the author hadn’t actually driven an EV - which may not be true, but I agree the author didn’t touch on the idea that EVs may simply offer a superior driving experience.

paganel 4y ago

> People are buying EVs because they're better. You should have added "people with money". Regular people don't have the luxury of paying up to 50% more for a car that often times is inferior to what they currently have.

jjav 4y ago

> For example, laws banning gasoline cars by 2035 are as useful as laws banning flip phones by 2015 would have been. If that were true, there wouldn't be any such laws in discussions and in the books. Just like there never was a law to ban flip phones, people just migrated on their own. There are lots of incentives to push people to EVs such as federal tax breaks and HOV lane access.

cm2187 4y ago

you wouldn't need legislation to ban ICE if electric vehicles were better for everyone. Many people need range. Or cheap cars.

yafbum 4y ago

As an EV owner, I completely agree that they are better cars to drive for most people. Handles better, cheaper to run, more fun to drive, and range isn't an issue unless you drive all day to far places. But Until the infrastructure and manufacturing scale are bootstrapped, they can only reasonably compete with the help of subsidies. And You can also say that ICE cars, as a component of the hydrocarbon industry, get a lot of subsidy from the insane amounts of military cost deployed to ensure a steady oil supply. Altogether societal beliefs that get people elected are having a strong influence in the way things go. In spite of EVs being better cars, if society decided to tilt back the balance of support towards ICEs, I think the market would snap back pretty quickly.

bmitc 4y ago

> That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. Aesthetics are one thing, although I find Teslas to be quite boring and even outdated, but the claim regarding Tesla's functionality is heavily debatable. Tesla is basically rediscovering why cars are the way they are and also struggling with quality.

simondotau 4y ago
> and also struggling with quality. The problem is that the media's endless obsession with Tesla means that criticism of their products become mainstream news, whereas criticisms of the average Toyota or Ford are never more than bullet points in car reviews. A few key points which contradict the assertion of Tesla "struggling with quality": • Tesla products consistently get high satisfaction ratings by their customers. [0] (Perhaps panel gap consistency isn't as high on the list of customer importance as car reviewers think it is?) • Tesla products have been consistently rated as among the safest cars on the road with respect to crash-worthiness. Most notably the recent assessment of the Model Y by Euro NCAP. [1] Maybe the panel gaps aren't perfect, but the chassis under the skin seems to have been well engineered. • Toyota, the supposed world leaders in car manufacturing, recently admitted — in public no less — that the Model Y is "truly a work of art". [2] [0] https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfie... [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/01/the-tesla-model-y-earned-europes-highest-safety-score-in-history/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/10/01/the-tesla-model-y-earne... [2] https://thedriven.io/2023/03/01/toyota-admits-tesla-model-y-is-truly-a-work-of-art-as-it-rethinks-ev-strategy/ https://thedriven.io/2023/03/01/toyota-admits-tesla-model-y-...
- bmitc 4y ago
  Tesla ranks amongst the lowest in reliability in Consumer Reports. Tesla has also intentionally underreported warranty fixes by not labeling them as such. Tesla has a poor reputation for fit and finish. Consumer satisfaction is going to be heavily skewed and untrustworthy in a case like Tesla where one is buying a premium vehicle with a lot of hype and fraudulent marketing. I wouldn't associate it with quality. Personally, I have sat in several Teslas. They all feel cheaper than my Kia. Safety is also loosely correlated with what is meant by quality. And another manufacturer's, particularly one going through a lot of drama and turmoil regarding EVs, anonymous sentiment is irrelevant.

DrBazza 4y ago

"Better" how? I want a range the same as petrol car, with a recharging time the same as it takes me to pump gasoline into the tank. Until I have that, EVs aren't 'better' for me in any way. I drive 300 miles point to point several times a month and with an EV the journey time is an hour longer, and definitely not 'better'. That's not to say that EVs won't improve, but by 2035 will we have 700 mile range EVs that charge to 100% in 3-4 minutes? The chassis, interior, and "technology" in combustion engine cars is largely the same for every manufacturer that produce EV + internal combustion because of economies of scale. So that's not a unique selling point.

mrjin 4y ago
What you want might never happen, especially the charging time part. If you pull out a calculator, you will find out the current required （under domestic voltage) to charge a 80kWh battery in 2 hours is already staggering. In 3-4 minutes at your home? I don't see it anytime soon.
concordDance 4y ago
Current Teslas will get you 50% charge in half an hour. Is adding 25 mins to your 5 hour journey really that big a deal?
- DrBazza 4y ago
  In the UK, in 2023, yes. I drive a part motorway, part countryside route that has very, very, few EV charging points, and on many occasions they've been full or broken, or both. EV cars are good for cities and city to city along motorways. Anywhere else, not so much.
  - Reason077 4y ago
    The UK charging experience has improved rapidly in the the past few years and will continue to do so. That is, buy an EV today and it's only going to improve tomorrow as more and better charging infrastructure is rolled out.
- 4y ago

basisword 4y ago

>> People are buying EVs because they're better. That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. As someone who rode in a Tesla Model Y for the first time last week I disagree. It was horrible. Inside it was very spacious but felt plasticky and cold (I did like the glass roof through). The worst bit though was the ride. Every small bump was felt like a pothole. And within five minutes I felt motion sickness due to the persistent bouncing around. I can’t say anything about drivability (this was 30mins in an Uber) but if I see my Uber driver is in a Model Y next time, I’ll happily cancel and wait for someone else.

rob74 4y ago
All of this has less to do with fundamental problems with electric vehicles and more to do with your opinion on a particular car (fortunately there are other electric car makers besides Tesla) and the driving style of your driver (granted, the stronger acceleration of an EV combined with an aggressive driving style or jerky steering can lead to a bad experience for passengers).
- basisword 4y ago
  Yes, but the OP’s example of an excellent electric car was a Tesla so sharing my experience on that specifically.

jesterson 4y ago

> People are buying EVs because they're better. No, they are not. It may be for some particular use cases, but generalisation is naturally bad idea. Objectively they are vastly inferior to combustion engine cars (unless we bring Tesla to comparison). Low mileage, slow refuelling, very low lifetime. Slow acceleration. If they were better as you state, governments wouldn't come with all sorts of subsidies to coerce people into buying EV. Market would correct itself and combustion engines would be a part of the past. But it's not happening, and I assert would never happen in future.

deleted 4y ago
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peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> People are buying EVs because they're better Disclaimer: I am ignoring the environmental implications here. Arguably they are not from many different POVs. They are better for car makers, they can market them at any price they like and States all over the globe are subsidizing them, so that people can afford them. In my Country buying an EV means paying 33% more for the same exact car, but with less autonomy, which is not a great proposition for the majority of the people living here that need a car. The real solution would be removing cars from the streets as much as we can, which is about 50% of them more or less. To follow on your analogy: saving car industry by switching to EVs would be like saving horse carriage industry by putting an engine on them in 1920.

oxfordmale 4y ago

Ignoring the hype, Tesla cars aren't better objectively from a purely functional approach. If I fill my current vehicle with diesel, I can drive 500 miles, fill up the tank in less than 15 minutes and drive back. With a Tesla or any other EV, I will spend several hours at charging points. EVs are great for local rat runs to the supermarket or nearby restaurants. However, they are still painful if you want to travel more than 100 miles. Battery technology improvements will arrive. However, it takes time to productionise research prototypes. During one of my holidays, I drove a self-charge BMW rental. It technically could still be sold after 2035. However, it had an electric range of less than 50 km before it switched to petrol. Car manufacturers will lobby for such loopholes to be allowed well beyond 2035.

alkonaut 4y ago
> Tesla cars aren't better objectively from a purely functional approach. I think this isn't as clear cut as it might sound. It depends on the usage pattern, local fuel cost etc. I drive a diesel too, but my next car will be an EV. If you have cheap gas and/or regularly travel so far you need to charge on the road, then both the economy and convenience goes down the drain very quickly. But if like me you have electricity at $0.10/kWh, you have 3x25A wires to your house, you can charge in your driveway, you very rarely need to charge on the road, and the diesel price is $10 per US gallon then the economy and convenience is completely different and much more favors EV.
jnsaff2 4y ago
This is your uninformed opinion. I own one, I have never spent more than an hour waiting for any charge. The waiting time is also not wasted, I'll go eat or work on the laptop. Cumulatively over the year I have definitely spent less waiting at a charging station than I did with the fossil car I had previously. Most of the time it's just charged itself overnight when I slept. It is SO MUCH CHEAPER to drive the EV than it is the ICE. Fuel cost ALONE pays for the monthly payments. Let alone having a modern car, better ergonomics, etc.
- ChancyChance 4y ago
  Do you hear yourself? You are admitting you have to stop for an hour any time you do a long trip, and apologetically claiming you can find something useful to do in that time. What kind of bs propaganda did you swallow? When I’m doing a road trip I don’t want to add one hour minumum per every few hundred miles, assuming I can find a charging station. Range limitations are the second reason why people don’t buy EVs, behind required home infrastructure expenses (a hidden one time tax). My partner and I both drive cars that are almost 20 years old, so do our parents. Oil changes, tires, and a monthly fill up for $60 or trip fillup of $120 for about 700 miles. That’s it. Todays EVs are like cell phones from 1985 with styling that appeals to the Pokémon generation.

benj111 4y ago

I disagree that laws banning IC cars are useless. It forces car companies to plan for a certain future, not a possible one. That leads to an increased line up of cars for consumers, increases competition allowing consumers to afford those cars. It also forces everyone to thing about charging infrastructure etc.

andrepd 4y ago

> which is that EVs are some kind of medicine for climate change that society is trying to have discipline about The obvious point, of course, is that EVs will not solve climate change or anything close. Mass automobile ownership has 99 problems, of which EVs solve 1. The key to better quality of life, as well as stronger mitigation of climate change, is boring stuff like trains and trams and bike lanes and walkable cities. Cars are great (1) for rural areas and (2) when they are at maximum occupancy. Anywhere else, especially cities, and they are a disaster at almost any level you can think of.

ddevault 4y ago

I mean the bigger issue is that cars and trucks aren't going away and EVs are clearly important, but the much more important problem is investing in public transit, especially in the United States. We don't need everyone to "transition" to EVs -- we need everyone to transition to trains.

mwcampbell 4y ago
This comment seems at odds with one you posted yesterday, which said that individual responsibility for climate change doesn't extend beyond the voting booth. But unless I'm misunderstanding this latest comment, it suggests that we individuals are wrong to want private transportation, that we should be happy with taking whatever public transportation is available and walking the rest of the way. Even when public transportation is expanded as you say it should be, that still won't be the same as taking a car all the way from one building to another. Assuming that the point is to put an end to the negative impact of private transportation on the climate, this suggests that we are in fact responsible for changing our lifestyle to address climate change. Am I misunderstanding?
- ddevault 4y ago
  Prioritization of public transit over EVs is a policy issue which is facilitated at the voting booth. We need fewer EV subsidies (or targeted to more important EV markets) and greater public investment in transit. I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy a new EV in favor of taking your city's crappy bus service and walking a mile in the rain. I'm saying that your city should invest in making the bus a better choice than your car so that you want to use it; society should set up the incentives accordingly. As the saying goes, public transit succeeds not when the poor can afford the bus, but when the wealthy choose the bus.
  - mwcampbell 4y ago
    Then I'm skeptical about whether public transit can actually succeed. Why would the wealthy ever choose the bus over taking their own vehicle all the way from point A to point B? Does public transit succeed according to that criterion in countries other than the US? Is it necessary to somehow force the wealthy to do what is less convenient for the individual?

timcobb 4y ago

> People are buying EVs because they're better How are they better? Not obvious at all to me.

HDThoreaun 4y ago
No gas stations, huge in cold climates. Instant acceleration which is physically impossible in ICE cars. Quite and no exhaust, so you can run them in a garage for preheating/cooling. Electricity is cheaper than gas. Less maintenance. A lot of the advantages are dependant on a garage and mostly using the car to get around town and not road trips. If those don't apply to you then yea ICE cars are probably better.

TRiG_Ireland 4y ago

EV's are not a solution to climate change. They don't exist to save the planet, or humanity. They exist to save the car industry.

Reason077 4y ago

> "laws banning gasoline cars by 2035 are as useful as laws banning flip phones by 2015 would have been." These laws serve to create certainty around boardroom tables, which helps speed up investment decisions. For an automotive industry executive, it's easier to commit billions to convert your factories to producing EVs when you're not bothered by nagging "but what if there is still demand for combustion vehicles in the 2030s?" questions.

gitfan86 4y ago
The executives get 90%+ of their compensation before 2035. So they care very little about the health of the company in 2035. What this means in practice is that companies like GM will say "We are going electric very soon" but not actually accomplish much. Here is an article from 2012. You can find very similar ones every 2 years since then. https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-gm-evs/gm-aims-to-build-500000-electric-technology-vehicles-a-year-idUKBRE8AD1EY20121114 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-gm-evs/gm-aims-to-build-5...
- Reason077 4y ago
  The laws aren't just a single cliff-edge, but set targets to be achieved along the way. For example, Europe demands zero emissions by 2035, but also requires each automaker to reduce emissions by 55% between 2021 and 2030. In practice, that means the majority of vehicles sold will need to be electric by 2030. That means every car company needs to be taking action now to avoid facing billions in fines in coming years.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  That’s not how careers work. You don’t get promoted by saying “I’ll do something very soon about that” and doing nothing. You get promoted by having something interesting to show to your bosses who can then look good to their bosses. With a clear objective set preparing to meet it is a clear way of getting promoted. The issue will be more that people prefer getting promoted by doing a bunch of stuff that looks like it’ll get you over the line, but often isn’t. I’m sure we will make a lot of progress by 2035, but it won’t be anywhere near “done”

Hamuko 4y ago

>That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. Could've fooled me. Firstly almost all Teslas look like ugly frogs to me. And a Tesla Model S was also the first time I've noticed a car have misaligned front and rear doors while walking past a car. I'm also not sure about the functionally part, unless it's just "electric motors are nice". I still see Tesla owners complain about the lack of CarPlay. Then there's the various issues that have come up. The ones that I remember: seatbelts falling off, steering wheels falling off, doorhandles breaking, doorhandles being inaccessible due to ice buildup, non-automotive LCD panels breaking inside hot/cold cars, and infotainment system bricking eMMC chips due to excessive logging. The self-driving features also look suspect, with some cars being unable to parallel park themselves, causing some weird behaviour on road, or crashing into obstacles when using the summoning.

esalman 4y ago

A Tesla is not attractive to me, neither aesthetically or functionally. I find my Corolla more attractive, for obvious reasons.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

> That's the whole point of Tesla making attractive vehicles, aesthetically and functionally. They're not, though. They make cheap plasticky ugly cars with an interior fit and finish on a par with 1990s Eastern Bloc cars, and expect you to somehow cope with a massive touchscreen while trying to drive, and then charge "proper car" prices.

JohnFen 4y ago

> People are buying EVs because they're better. Doesn't this depend on the criteria by which you're measuring "better"? Personally, aside from reduced climate impact, they aren't better on any any count that matters to me, and are worse on a few.

PaulHoule 4y ago

For some people range matters. It’s particularly an issue for the electric trucks that Detroit is making big noises about. For regulators EVs have been a deal with the devil since they are driving affordable and efficient cars (e.g. Toyota Corolla class) out of the market. in exchange for big promises about the EV future, Detroit is free to sell all the oversized trucks and SUVS they want today.