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The chat control proposal does not belong in democratic societies
- TOMDM 4y agoThis is especially important in the age of LLM's. Large scale surveillance while abusive and harmful has historically been limited in scale by the ability of those in control to trawl through data. Automated "moderation" of dragnet communications collection with modern AI holds the potential for a scale of abusive privacy invasion at unprecedented scales.
- whitemary 4y agoFrom the perspective of EU leaders, LLMs are the final ingredient. They won't be able to sleep knowing the NSA is having all the fun without them.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- yosito 4y agoI'd be surprised if the NSA hasn't already had LLMs for some time.
- geysersam 4y agoThey certainly have a massive data set to train on.
- Llamamoe 4y agoJust as ML vision and surveillance have been used in China to genocide Uyghurs, LLM and anti-privacy laws will be able to trivially replace the need for human collaborators in the perpetuation of any arbitrary atrocity.
- staunton 4y agoYou still need people to perform the actual atrocity once the victims are chosen. That is, unless you also assume military robots, which you didn't list.
- rsync 4y agoInteresting… I was thinking the opposite… My personal ability to generate millions of real-looking messages has now exploded and I wonder how these proposed structures will function if everyone sends each other 1k suspicious messages every minute of every day ? Maybe attach a zip-bomb to every message just for good measure?
- revelio 4y agoYou won't be able to do that. Spam filtering exists and mostly isn't based on message contents looking real or not.
- faeyanpiraat 4y agoYou can't use current spam filters to fight against this, provided the system is implemented correctly. Let's assume you send 1000 automated messages periodically, and they contain a mixed bag of normal looking (so that your genuine comms could hide in plain sight) and malicious messages (to make their detection systems sweat). All the messages are sent from the same origin (e.g.: a messaging app capable of this), with a specific interval (the genuine msg is timed accordingly), etc.. Let's see a small sample of normal looking messages, with an added genuine manually written message: - Let's meet up at the Riverside Park soccer field at 5 PM sharp. - Hey, can you grab a gallon of milk from the corner store on your way back? - Good morning! Wishing you a fantastic day ahead, especially during your 11 AM meeting! - Just a reminder: our dinner reservation at Luigi's Italian Bistro is at 7 PM tonight. - Could you pick up the kids from Maplewood Elementary at 3:30 PM today? Work is keeping me busy. - Caught in traffic near Main Street, but I'll be at the coffee shop in about 10 minutes! Which one is the genuine one? Just like you cannot discern which msg is genuine (are any of them?), you can generate plausible maliciously looking messages as well.
- revelio 4y agoAgain, that's not how spam filters actually work in the real world. They hardly care about message contents. They care about how many spam reports users file and those are weighed against non-reported messages for any stable identity like phone number, sending domain name, etc. Spam meanwhile is defined as messages users don't want. If users can't tell the difference between spam and non-spam then, by definition, the messages are not spam. If you send lots of "legit" messages to people who don't want them you'll be reported as a spammer and get banned. Doesn't matter what the messages say.
- Buttons840 4y agoTwo people with the same LLM weights could generate some powerful stenography. A lot could be hidden in the supposedly random choices the LLM uses to choose it's words. It would all appear to be a normal conversation to any outsiders.
- patientplatypus 4y ago[dead]
- dmix 4y agoWhile I appreciate their efforts 100% it's sad people need infographics and ads to know why this is a terrible idea. Although I've seen enough HN comments in recent years willing to gamble on giving their kind an inch as if they won't take the whole field given the chance. History's only reliable lesson here is humans having a short memory of trusting these systems to do what they initially promised they would do, for longer than the well-intentioned's term in office.
- sacrosancty 4y agoI think people are generally happy when such systems get repurposed, because the new purpose is likely to be something they're happy with when it comes. For example, in New Zealand, a car number plate tracking system that was only supposed to be used for specific purposes like finding stolen cars, was improperly used during covid lockdowns to catch some people who had been given permission to travel to another region and were doing so legally but the government discovered the permission was a mistake and wanted to stop them. Everyone loved it because bogey-man covid was more important than whatever promises some politician seduced people with years ago.
- strangeattractr 4y agoBut what if people are saying things we don’t like?
- O__________O 4y agoIn a survey, only 18% of 10,265 citizens from 10 EU countries supported the plan: https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/poll-72-of-citizens-oppose-eu-plans-to-search-all-private-messages-for-allegedly-illegal-material-and-report-to-the-police/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/poll-72-of-citizens-oppose-... * 10 countries being: Netherlands, Poland, Germany, Italy, France, Austria, the Czech Republic, Spain, Sweden and Ireland
- maxilevi 4y agoWhy every 12 months the European Commission comes up with a total dumb and authoritarian proposal and we have to actively fight it? It’s just tiring
- moffkalast 4y agoBecause of the person who's currently the president of the Commission, that's why. Ask any German about von der Leyen.
- neuronic 4y agoGerman here, that name triggers PTSD. Merkel removed this clowness from domestic politics by surprise-inserting her in the European Commission. Merkel simply removed a political opponent from German domestic relevance and the rest of Europe has to suffer for it. I am sorry. There is mostly vile hate and vitriol for her in the entire country. Her entire career was a show of the Peter Principle.
- moffkalast 4y agoWell for what it's worth it's usually the reverse. Local politicians get rid of good people by sending them to the EU, so the EU parliament on average consists of better people than local governments. Consequently it's also why so few proposals from the current commission ever pass I suppose.
- nnx 4y agoWe have to win every time, but they have to win only once.
- Spivak 4y agoThis is only true if you give up once it passes. Then you only have to win once to get it repealed.
- 4y ago
- ShroudedNight 4y agoThis is so awful that it strikes me as likely being a door-in-the-face[1] proposal designed to make a more 'reasonable' proposal that is still vile on its own merits seem palatable. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Door-in-the-face_technique
- KennyBlanken 4y agoSee also: Overton Window and Anchoring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(cognitive_bias) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_(cognitive_bias) ...but yes, this is why in the US republicans are constantly floating all sorts of batshit regressive policies on social welfare programs, LGBTQ people, voting rights, immigration - it shifts the ultimate compromise closer to their desired outcome, and even if it doesn't, it still is virtue signaling to their base, something to shout about at campaign rallies. "See what I tried to do for you? But those evil liberals shot me down! I need your support!"
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mikrotikker 4y agoDems too. They're both as nutty as each other. You hear that? Someone in the distance is shouting "I just want public healthcare". Russia is about to find out why USA doesnt have public healthcare.
- orbisvicis 4y agoDon't you think it'd be better to ratify the most vile proposal while the ideals of freedom still have majority reign? To create a fiasco so enduring it won't soon be forgotten? And before tools of mass manipulation become any more technologically sophisticated? If I'm reading [1] correctly, we're just picking up momentum down a decades-long slippery slope. 1. https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/FIW_2022_PDF_Booklet_Digital_Final_Web.pdf https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/2022-02/FIW_202...
- hndamien 4y agoI can't think of a term more opposed to "Free speech" than "Chat control".
- jjgreen 4y agoSo it's "Speech control" then, let's not give these clowns a monopoly on the naming of things.
- cardosof 4y agoIf I lived in the EU I'd want to know who are proposing this kind of stuff and help with anything that gets them far from public and government -related jobs forever, but hey, that's me. Lots of people like to give up a bit of freedom and privacy in exchange for an increased sense of security.
- mongol 4y agoIt is EU commissioner Ylva Johansson. Unfortunately, there is not much you can do. She is not elected to this position, but appointed, and in this case by a former government who is no longer in power.
- ShroudedNight 4y agoThat sounds like she's pretty close to being a lame duck, and has little to lose, popularity wise. If that's correct, she's in an optimal place to become unhinged from a lack of accountability. I'm curious in this case if it's being a professional fall-guy or engaging in their own (u|dys)topian radicalism.
- alwayslikethis 4y agoEU seems to have an abundance of unelected regulatory positions. Eurosceptics are right in that EU represents a form of non-democratic decision-making which has the power to supersede (more) democratically formulated laws from member states. Ideally, the autocratic tendencies of the EU and the member states should cancel out by disagreeing with each other, but in reality member states seem unwilling to oppose them most of the times.
- pohuing 4y agoPartially yeah, as well as the complete lack of legislative initiative for the parliament, the only part that's directly elected by citizens. On the other hand though: Europeans kinda suck as a blob. See Italy electing fascists again, Germany stagnating for decades under Conservative control, basically everything east of Germany etc. Etc. The parliament is dominated by Conservative authoritarian forces as well. In that sense EU legislature is just too good at representing it's people. I gave a speech to my computer science course when the new copyright directive was about to go into its final trilogue round in 2018. Wide agreement in discussion afterwards, but not a single student cared enough to make their wishes known to their MEPs. If even they don't do it, i can only say we're getting what we asked for.
- sundvor 4y agoI happen to be reading 1984 for the first time right now - that book was published in 1949, and gee did Orwell have the EU scoped out - even though he kind of missed by a couple of decades. There's so many real life parallels that I'm getting the chills.
- emodendroket 4y agoHey at least you guys got to vote on it first.
- zoklet-enjoyer 4y agongl, the EU is low key cringe rn
- AiaAidan 4y agoSign The Petition And Tell EU Legislators: Don’t Scan Us: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/03/sign-petition-and-tell-eu-legislators-dont-scan-us https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/03/sign-petition-and-tell...
- throwaway892238 4y agoThis is when I get super hopeful that more draconian bullshit like this gets passed. The only way to get regular people to stop accepting their government's bullshit is to severely outrage them. Tiny outrages just get accepted as the new norm.
- AiaAidan 4y agoThere are too many countries in the world with oppressive regimes where people seem willing to accept the status quo without much resistance to be as optimistic as you about people's desire for freedom. Even in countries where extreme suffering and censorship exist, like N.Korea or, less known, Turkmenistan (which, by the way, is the craziest country of the former USSR - the cult of personality in Turkmenistan has been taken to the extent of idiocy, censorship works like in the worst times of Stalin, and people suffer from hunger, poverty, and constant fear) protests and uprisings are rare. I personally know people who demand even more control in some of these countries, and after hearing about their extreme complacency (think mobilization in russia), I'm not as hopeful that people truly want to be free anymore. IMHO the only form of freedom that is attainable is personal "nomadic" freedom, as in Sovereign Citizen book. We need to vote with our feet and wallets, and choose to live in places where our individual freedoms are respected and protected. I'm sorry if this all sounds a bit bleak, it's personal...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mmazing 4y agoYou assume that people want to learn from their mistakes instead of doubling, tripling down, ad infinitum. The last 8 or so years has taught me otherwise.
- computerfriend 4y agoI have experienced very draconian bullshit getting passed. Would not recommend.
- robomartin 4y agoI hope the people who think this is a bad idea are equally horrified by what factions of the US government and media did to silence speech not in alignment with their preferred ideology. Lying, obfuscating and preventing information from reaching everyone. When you are for free speech, you have to actively protect that with which you disagree. That’s the only way it works. If you don’t, someone will eventually come for what you think should be protected…and there will be nobody left to defend it.
- photochemsyn 4y agoSuggested alternative: The "End Political Corruption Proposal" "Given that political corruption is rife in European countries, with great detriments to the healthy function of government, all politicians in positions where they may be engaging in corrupt behavior must submit to 24-7 audio and video surveillance, which will be piped over public platforms for crowdsourcing of corruption detection. All personal communications of politicians and of government bureaucrats will become matters of public record for the same reason. Since we cannot trust a corrupt head of government to investigate their own corruption, or one of their underlings, this kind of public exposure of all politicians and bureaucrats is the only reasonable, rational solution to the problem of endemic government corruption in the EU."
- randominsomnia 4y agoYou have my vote.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Supermancho 4y ago> Suggested alternative: The "End Political Corruption Proposal" I'm probably in the minority on HN, but I think this is a good thing. It should be a matter of course, in a democratic society. Free speech doesn't live solely in digital communication (universally owned by some company) any more than it does in the classified ads in a newspaper.
- worik 4y agoIt would be world changing, the complete abolition of all privacy. Little drones that followed everybody around, everywhere, broadcasting and storing every thing everybody does, or says, everywhere they go, and what they do. No. I do not recommend it. But the thought experiment is interesting.
- Supermancho 4y ago> It would be world changing, the complete abolition of all privacy. > Little drones that followed everybody around, everywhere, broadcasting and storing every thing everybody does, or says, everywhere they go, and what they do. That's an interesting 0-100% (eclipse all possible free speech possibilities!) imaginary scenario. I don't subscribe to it.
- Mizoguchi 4y agoThe EU seems to be trying to catch up with China and Russia.
- AiaAidan 4y agoChatControl Explained: https://peertube.european-pirates.eu/w/d64e6e10-0ad0-4b37-8813-3f5bc329f03b https://peertube.european-pirates.eu/w/d64e6e10-0ad0-4b37-88...
- vuciv1 4y agoI urge fellow HN members to take a stand against this proposal by informing others, participating in public debates, and reaching out to their representatives in the EU Parliament. Let's work together to protect our democratic values and the future of the internet as we know it.
- MikeGale 4y agoFacebook does this already. Not only posts and comments but also messages between two people. The system is used to hide content, change content, shadow ban and the like. Even by its own standards it's typically used incorrectly, but most users have no workable way to appeal. The content reviewed is often visible to low paid workers in various countries. Similar systems have been infiltrated by hostile governments. (Twitter is a case in point.) (If you use FB you can sometimes probe the system and better establish the details.) The system is also used to prevent one user informing another that they've been squelched. My guess, this would give rise to even less competent implementations and actual elimination of political opponents and the like.
- tvink 4y ago"does this" is maybe a little misleading here. Facebook has their own platform which they monitor. Like or not, that's something very different than mandating that every system should have a backdoor.
- chickencatsoup 4y agoThe fact that this being justified with the pretense of being "for the children" seems like such a transparent way to play on people's emotions. From the start of the proposal itself: "At least one in five children falls victim to sexual violence during childhood 3 . A 2021 global study found that more than one in three respondents had been asked to do something sexually explicit online during their childhood, and over half had experienced a form of child sexual abuse online" I am (obviously) against child sexual abuse. I can also say, with very high certainty, that those numbers are being blown completely out-of-proportion, with the widest definition possible used. To justify such a wide-reaching proposal behind this thin veneer of justification is absolutely nuts to me.
- Llamamoe 4y agoAlmost all child abuse is perpetuated by people the child knows in person. The fact that there's a fuckton of creeps online has very little to do with it.
- theclansman 4y agoI don't think monitoring chats is gonna prevent me being raped by my uncle.
- andrewstuart 4y agoI haven’t read the post. Don’t tell me, it’s to “protect the children”, the excuse under which all draconian citizen monitoring laws are introduced.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- niemenmaa 4y agoIndeed. Subheading of the proposal is "laying down rules to prevent and combat child sexual abuse".
- andrewstuart 4y agoYeah that’s how they brought in the draconian monitoring laws in Australia. “To protect the children”….. no one can argue with it without sounding like a pedophile. And it always comes with an assurance that the dramatic power overreach will never be used for anything else but hunting pedophiles. But it’s never too long until they’re using it to hunt copyright breakers and all sorts or ordinary crime.
- th15row 4y agoIt doesn't matter, the EU has already crossed the point of no return. Europe is either collapsed or an authoritarian dystopia by the 2030s, no in-betweens. I've been saying this for years and it will be funny to see europeans to catch up to this fact in real time.
- Llamamoe 4y agoIs there anywhere in the world left that's neither on the way to becoming a dystopia nor already a hellhole unless you're a male local?
- AnimalMuppet 4y agoDepends on your definition of "dystopia". Switzerland and Costa Rica might be candidates, but I don't know enough to be sure.
- th15row 4y agoNot sure, but Europe will go down FAST. LatAm there are a good few places left where you have a paradisiac nature/weather and no psychopaths trying to control your every move.
- mdp2021 4y agoThe problem with a number of current societies is the shift from the idea of "citizen as a Man" to "citizen as a subject - a humble entity". This allows to propose conditions that "Men" would never accept. It is the very idea that is fading. ...In fact, for a number of today's common practices we suggest the proposer to think whether [prominent figure] would have ever accepted it.
- Llamamoe 4y agoYour argument comes across really wrong when you use "man" instead of "person".
- mdp2021 4y ago[flagged]
- niek_pas 4y agoWhy not just use 'person' rather than 'man'?
- mikrotikker 4y agoMan is not being used in a gendered manner.
- niek_pas 4y agoEh. You can _say_ that, but it's clearly no coincidence that the word for 'male' and for 'person' were the same for a long time. 'Person' seems like the obviously neutral choice to make, hence my question: why not just use 'person'?
- mdp2021 4y ago> seems like the obviously neutral choice It seems very wrongly - because it just «seems» ignorant. Because where you read 'person' the normal and correct action is to search where the reference to the personality is. And in that case, _there is not_, and such lack was clearly expressed. Again: no, you cannot use 'person' where you do not mean "a collection of special traits". You can go on annoyingly inventing language, but it was already there. And you cannot demand that others adopt your code, which has no real foundation. Edit: > seems like the obviously neutral choice I missed that detail. «Neutral»? Neutral to what?! Gender? We should be obsessed by that?! We should introduce that in salads, in geometry, in this very page?!
- niemenmaa 4y agoThe subheading of the proposal is, not surprisingly, "laying down rules to prevent and combat child sexual abuse". Nowadays it seems that every privacy-demolishing law that is proposed is a some form of "Think of the children" [0]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children
- mikrotikker 4y agoIt was always so. A stalking horse for the ages. If SOPA and PIPA come back they'll be wrapped in a trans flag to ensure full compliance.
- niemenmaa 4y agoThis link has been discussed earlier in [0], Chat Control posts that have gained traction are for e.g. [1] and [2]. Patrick Breyer has a good summary and timeline of this proposal and its history [3] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35094627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35094627 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329368 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329368 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29066894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29066894 [3] https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/
- tlongo 4y agoDoes the proposal include chat services that are run by corporations only? If so, how will that prevent people from setting up their own chat infrastructure for child-abuse purposes? Besides that, how about educating people on how to do exactly that: Set up their own chat service. That would put control in the hands of those people who are not only responsible for protecting children but also have the most leverage to do that: The parents.
- pmlnr 4y ago> If so, how will that prevent people from setting up their own chat infrastructure for child-abuse purposes? It won't.
- jckahn 4y agoI’m very interested to see how this will affect https://chitchatter.im/ https://chitchatter.im/, a serverless, self-hostable chat app I built. Would it be exempt from this EU proposal?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- peoplefromibiza 4y agoNitpicking, but this has nothing to do with democracy. I know it works as a form of propaganda to use the "democracy should not do X" but democracy in no way disallows chat control programs. Democracy it's only the system used to chose governing officials. If a majority of the people's representatives approves chat control, it would be perfectly democratic. Anti-democratic would be to remove the freedom to contest the proposal, which no one did or is trying to do. Also freedom of speech it's about the possibility to express your opinions, not that the opinions would receive no post-expression control nor that the people expressing them should bear no responsibility for what they say. Monitoring and auditing have always been integral to democratic systems, they are called law enforcement and as such they have broader access to information that must be authorized, it is by design. In the end it's all about different ideas supported by different parties here, that are discussing a proposal, which is the essence of democracy. It will resolve in a compromise, as usual. Those who are discussing it as "evil" VS "good" are missing the point of the democratic process IMO. Mullvad is in fact urging politicians in the EU to vote no, they are not proposing to attack the EU institutions with guns and those supporting the chat control are not saying that Mullvad "supports online pedophilia".
- guerrilla 4y ago> If a majority of the people's representatives approves chat control, it would be perfectly democratic. In liberal theory, the tyranny of the majority[1] was supposedly solved with rights (encoded in constitutions.) The problem here, according to the theory, is that we don't have a right to privacy. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
- sakex 4y agoAnother day I'm glad I live in Switzerland.
- mdp2021 4y agoSubmit a page about your experience and opinion on the matter, it will be interesting to discuss it. Some people in Switzerland speak of some points of decadence even there.
- teekert 4y agoI keep asking, who is going to stop me from encrypting a message and sending it to my wife? Who, and how? I can only conclude that some utterly dystopian tech needs to be developed to uphold this law. Why is everybody so focused on the "Oh this is so bad!"... What if this law passes? It's completely impossible right?
- pmlnr 4y agohow: by stopping you from installing the software needed, which is the part that worries me.
- teekert 4y agoHow are they going to stop me from installing software? Even if they force "app stores" into compliance, I've lived in a world without them. I can always git clone from-ipfs, make, make install. Or you know, install some Flatpack from some secret repo or matrix group. Or find/distribute some software using BitTorrent over TOR. Do Encryption tools/apps now have the same status as botnet control software packages: Only for criminals? And if I do use encryption, am I a criminal now? Will they come after me, hit me with a $5 wrench [0] to force me to give up my keys? Only to find me telling my wife I love her with that special feeling of nobody else listening in? You know, like from my mouth to her ear. As we can do at home? Will they soon start to listen in on my home to prevent key exchange parties with my friends? I find the (imagined) consequences of enforcing this law insane. I just don't see it happening in this society. And if it does happen, society will be very different. [0] https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
- pmlnr 4y agoI'm with you, honestly, and yes, I also know how to circumvent a lot of things. > And if it does happen, society will be very different. Indeed, but I barely recognise our society from 20 years ago when having a palmtop made you a weirdo.
- lordnacho 4y agoThat works for your average HN user, who knows what all those words mean. For someone else it means you either live with what the government lets you have, or you pay the cost of learning all those things. People will end up accepting a lower level of privacy.
- jgaa 4y agoI think it's time for me to look for a new home, and just leave EU behind to rot. Kind of how people leave/left Putins Russia. Unlike Russia (where Putin eventually will have an "accident" or die of old age), I don't believe the politics of EU will ever change for the better.
- pmlnr 4y agoAnd where would you go? The US? China? India? An unknown tropical island with no economy?
- lofaszvanitt 4y agoWhat if most of these adverse things are already in place, and these legislative steps are just theather.
- 988747 4y ago[dead]
- wslh 4y agoReturning to the Clipper chip [1], PGP [2], Bernstein v. United States [3], Cyperrphunk mailing list[4] era. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip [2] https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/08/pgp_at_30/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/08/pgp_at_30/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernstein_v._United_States [4] https://cryptoanarchy.wiki/getting-started/what-is-the-cypherpunks-mailing-list https://cryptoanarchy.wiki/getting-started/what-is-the-cyphe...
- chaosbolt 4y agoThe internet has always been a too good to be true kind of thing, a black swan of human history where the lords and kings and priests didn't control every aspect of the slave's life, it took them 2 to 3 decades but eventually the kings and priests will control our lives. Of course the reason is because god or X or Y or national security or Z but they'll do it and we'll believe their reasons.
- timdaub 4y agoI can‘t believe the citizens of a country have to stand up against mass surveillance every few years. This is nonsense. I guess we‘ll see more approaches like Signal and crypto where digital policy is being executed upon without the involvement of corrupt lawyers.
- trucking_plato 4y ago[dead]
- seydor 4y agoI don't know, what if we miss the chance to be (once again) the world leader at regulating spying, and mock the americans for not having such regulation? We have a reputation to uphold
- headsoup 4y agoHow about they implement it for all politicians and executives first, then the rest of us if that works out. Everyone has rights or no one has rights
- mharig 4y agoAre there democratic societies on this planet?
- mrangle 4y agoThe symbolism articulated by the Greeks seems to indicate not. Consider the logic that a government has an ever-greater interest in promoting its Nation as quintessentially democratic the more antidemocratic that it becomes. In this case, superficial public participation and the government's elusive visible validity scale together. Whereas in the archetype of a truly democratic society (I say archetype because it may not exist), the government arguably has a motivation to discourage the promotional image of and participation in democracy. Because in this case, democratic participation is an actual threat to power. This theory only holds for nations that have any democratic pretense. Which likely has more to do with foreign policy than anything else. How many Western Nations fall over themselves to align themselves with democracy?
- guerrilla 4y agoI think this will pass and thereafter, we all have a duty to disobey it. This isn't anything remotely resembling democracy.
- soueuls 4y agoNo idea why people still consider European countries to be democratic. People are elected sure, but they are all pretty much socialists, it’s not like you can really choose. Candidates who have different worldview don’t have access to media. Oh, and last time we got a say about whether we wanted to wanted to abide by the European constitution we said « no » at 55% Apparently it did not make any difference whatsoever. European countries should be treated like anything else. A bunch of people who seized power and use democracy as a way decentralised power so it’s harder to overturn
- mrangle 4y agoEven North Korea calls itself a democracy.
- mrangle 4y agoThe government of Marcus Dutroux wants its citizens to believe that it is willing to take extraordinary measures to protect the children.
- titzer 4y agoThe actual proposal, first paragraph: > The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) and Article 24(2) of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (‘the Charter’) 1 enshrine as rights the protection and care of children’s best interests and well-being. In 2021, the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child underlined that these rights must be equally protected in the digital environment 2 . The protection of children, both offline and online, is a Union priority. Literally, "it's for the children". I don't need to read any more. Get fucked, big brother.
- mdp2021 4y ago"For the children", let us make them grow up in a world of lunacy, /S
- Slava_Propanei 4y ago[dead]
- JasonFruit 4y agoA minor-seeming terminology quibble that has far-reaching effects: the chat control proposal does not belong in human society. People in democratic societies don't have different rights than those under other political systems; everyone has a right to speak freely and expect privacy in their communications, absent very specific situations where there is evidence that what is being discussed is unallowably dangerous to others, i.e. criminal. To tie rights to democracy not only ignores the rights of people in other systems, it makes those rights sound like arbitrary gifts of the government rather than intrinsic features of humanity.
- stametseater 4y agoNatural rights are a kind of theology. There's no scientific evidence for their existence, they're just asserted to exist. The fact that such rights are not recognized in most countries means that for practical intents and purposes, they do not exist in those countries.
- TeeMassive 4y agoAll rights are natural. Then restrictions are made to limit them.
- giraffe_lady 4y agoIf true then natural rights are an excellent example that things can exist without scientific evidence of them. Theology it may be it's a more powerful and useful concept than the one you're proposing.
- stametseater 4y ago> it's a more powerful and useful concept than the one you're proposing. What is it that you think I proposed? I support the defense of that which you consider natural rights, because if they aren't defended they will cease to exist in any meaningful way. These rights did not exist since the big bang in some sort of metaphysical space, nor does human society gravitate towards them. These rights were formulated by people, and insofar as they're recognized presently it's because people risked death to make it so.
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- realworldperson 4y ago[dead]
- avodonosov 4y agoShoold they start with stronder penalties for child abuse instead?
- avodonosov 4y agoAn effective way of countering such proposals would be to suggest an alternative mechanism for children safety. If anyone comes up with such a solution, he will achieve two goods: - protect children - remove a motive for surveilence Let's brainstorm?
- avodonosov 4y agoIdeas out of top of my head. 1. Honeypots. Special agents sit online pretending to be children. The abusers found captured immediately, real time. This requires very quick legal aid channels between countries and organizations. To prevent the abusers from anonymizing (e.g. Tor), strong identification is needed in chats and communication systems - ID card or passport. That's a strong requirement, but better than surveillance, probably. 2. Strong identification of children. At least, children should be reliably identified by chat systems, and all communication with them should require the other party to be strongly identified. Or even full recording of communication, but only when communicating with children. By default chat system assumes user is a child, and to be off the record, user has to prove very reliably he is not a child (and the other side of the communication is a proven grown up as well). 3. AI-generated child abuse videos. Real children not harmed, perverts are satisfied. Although, people enjoying child abuse content deserve punishment anyway, probably. Also, encouraging production of such content increases the danger for normal people (including children) to be exposed to this content. However, the exposure possibility problem exists anyway.
- owisd 4y agoEverything this site claims seems like an exaggeration when you actually follow the references through to the original proposal. Before a service needs to do anything at all the proposal would require an order from a judge where the government would need to present evidence in advance that they're likely to find CSAM and service providers only need to report back the specific material requested in the order. I'm not sure it's workable in this form either but hardly sounds like scope for mass surveillance.
- rawgabbit 4y agoThe english version of the proposal is 134 pages. There should be a proposal to outlaw long windedness and bureaucratic mumbo jumbo and write in plan language. The writing is PTSD inducing. It is like the first circle of hell. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:13e33abf-d209-11ec-a95f-01aa75ed71a1.0001.02/DOC_1&format=PDF https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:13e33abf-...