11 ms·

An Open-Source Espresso

188 points by lxm 4y ago

ahepp 4y ago
I’ve been working on a raspberry pi 0w based PID controller for my Gaggia. It’s working quite well. I think the SD card based installation flow could really help a lot of people who would otherwise need to flash an MCU. Currently it’s only doing PID temperature control. I’d like to benchmark model predictive control. I’d also like to do some of the more advanced features like pressure control, wire up a scale, and make a nice web UI.
ackfoobar 4y ago
This reminds me of the story of ZPM. It tried to use off-the-shelf components and custom software to make it work well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M The world of atoms is so much harder than the world of bits.
- sho_hn 4y ago
  The hardest part of hardware is mass production and support. For a lot of things doing a good one-off is merely expensive and time-intensive, but great as a hobby. That's why a lot of DIY efforts are super impressive and have satisfying results, even if you could never scale and productize them.
  - buildbot 4y ago
    Right, my theoretical one off hacked espresso machine might be perfect, but requires troubleshooting or programming skills or soldering to keep it working perfect - pretty much a no go for most consumers.
- mongol 4y ago
  In wonder how hard they tried, really. Feels like they more or less took the money and called it quits
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    Wow, this is so unfair to them. I followed the project with intense interest from day 1, and "Feels like they more or less took the money and called it quits" is total BS. To be clear, I think the original ZPM gang got in waaaay over their heads - one of the biggest problems is that the kickstarter was just far too successful: the ZPM team had to go from building a prototype to actually worrying about how they were going to manufacture these at a sizable scale. I think it's totally fair to say they handled things quite poorly as it became clear they were struggling, and if I were a backer left with very little to show for it I'd probably be mad, too, but to say "they more or less took the money and called it quits" is not, at all, what happened.
  - malermeister 4y ago
    Seems like they tried pretty hard. Here's James Hoffman, the authoritative Internet Coffee Weirdo, reviewing a prototype: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M
fellowmartian 4y ago
This is neat, but I wish we’d move from retrofitting Gaggia Classics to something more modern. Decent Espresso showed us that boiler machines for home use are a dead end, because they have too much thermal mass for rapid switching between brewing and steaming. This is why I initially considered buying a Gaggia and modding it, but ultimately got a Breville Infuser as it basically comes pre-modded and is thermocoil-based, so you can quickly switching to steaming. It’s not the fastest steaming in the world, but I think it’s actually good for beginners to learn how to steam on a slow machine.
- nicolaslem 4y ago
  > Decent Espresso showed us that boiler machines for home use are a dead end. Do you mean single boiler machines? Many home machines have no problem switching because they just use two boilers, one for brewing and one for steaming.
  - horsawlarway 4y ago
    Yeah, double boiler is very, very worth it IMO. Our machine has a 300ml boiler for brewing the shot, and a 1 liter boiler for the steam wand and hot water wand, and it's great. I can pull shots quickly after turning the machine on because the 300ml boiler heats up fast. Steaming takes a few minutes to heat up, but once there it'll keep going for a long time, and I can keep pulling shots at the right temp in the mean time. Way happier with the double boiler machine than I was with the single boiler we used to use. Much less planning required for my own use and I can actually serve several guests a nice espresso/latte/cappuccino from the machine in a reasonable time.
    - nicolaslem 4y ago
      I agree, having the two parts of the machine working independently from each other makes a big difference even at home. Dual boilers are more common but the same concept applies to machines with dual thermocoils, like the one I picked.
    - fatnoah 4y ago
quijoteuniv 4y ago
What kind of pressure are we taking about? This project would definetely benefit with chating with a barista and understanding the principle of brewing a coffe shot, or working/getting experience with a professional machine. Personally i think the best you can get at home (unless you can afford a pro machine) is aeropress. Dead serious
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  >Personally i think the best you can get at home (unless you can afford a pro machine) is aeropress. Dead serious Given the notoriously grainy mouth feel of aeropress coffee, and the sheer joy I've had out of proper espresso made with even less-expensive home machines (e.g. a Rancillo Silvia, to say nothing of nicer home machines like Rockets), I'm utterly stunned by the weirdness of this assertion. I wouldn't be more puzzled if you'd said the best you can do at home is a Mr Coffee. Dead serious.
  - quijoteuniv 4y ago
    Interesting, can you describe what is for you a good espresso shot?
    - ubermonkey 4y ago
      There's a certain sweetness that comes through with a well done shot, along with a real smoothness on the palette without sacrificing body. Certainly all coffee has a bit of bitter going on, but with a properly done shot -- under real pressure, with a dialed in set of variables (grind mass, desired shot mass, shot time, etc) -- it's just part of the party, not the whole thing. And you can absolutely get this at home, but you need a proper machine. (A Moka pot won't do it. People might LIKE Moka coffee -- lots do! -- but it's not the same thing.) I'd rather pull a shot from my Rocket than go to any shop in town. And, as I said, I've had shots just as good from machines much cheaper than my R58 (like the aforementioned Silvia). IME, genuinely good espresso is a fairly rare thing. The set of coffeeshops that pull consistently good shots is a much, much smaller subset of [Coffeeshops] than we might expect. What an aeropress produces is more akin to French press than anything else I've had. It's absolutely nothing like espresso. Since I'm not a French press fan, I end up not caring for it, but that's a preference thing, not an indictment of the method. When it comes to filter coffee (which is to say, non-espresso), I prefer Chemex.
naet 4y ago
I've been wanting an Espresso machine recently but it seems like they're a lot more expensive than I hoped for a decent one. I was spoiled by the one my Italian American parents had that was very nice but probably cost them a pretty penny to buy. It was a beautiful old metal machine with none of the digital bells and whistles that seem to plague the newer machines. Sometimes I use my moka pot which isn't the same but still produces very nice coffee when used right.
- anon84873628 4y ago
  FWIW I think the Flair brand offers the best price performance for entry level espresso. It takes more practice to get a consistent shot, but it can definitely make good coffee. There are now many good hand grinders that can do espresso grind for less than $200. Then you just need a kettle. The Wacoco products also make a solid shot, but they are even more inconvenient for home use.
  - ben7799 4y ago
    I love the Flair. I've been using it around 2 years now just about every day. It's just right for home use where you're not making lots of espresso. It's simple, has basically nothing to break, wastes extremely little energy, takes up very little space on the counter, etc.. And once you get good at using it you can do lots of things that require very very expensive boiler machines to do and make very good espresso.
  - bergie 4y ago
    I make coffee every morning with a Wacaco Nanopresso. It produces a pretty nice shot after you get the grind, tamping, etc dialed down. Sure, it is a bit of work to pump out the coffee, but it makes for a decent morning wake-up ritual.
- binarymax 4y ago
  We were given a Capresso 117.05 as a gift and it’s a really great entry level espresso machine for the price (which I just looked up). I was actually surprised how well it worked, even with a cheap palm grinder.
ladberg 4y ago
Hah, I clicked expecting an open source version of Apple's on-device ML runtime.
klausa 4y ago
Of all the things that I could possibly think of "making a DYI version of would be fun", a machine that has ~0.5-1.5 liters of boiling water at significant pressures is on the very very very end. Hats off to you if you feel comfortable with that, but I wouldn't want to be in the same _room_ as that thing.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Water under significant pressure is not really that big of a deal. It is largely incompressible, so if there is a leak, it just, well, leaks. Sure, it can spray, but even then I've been hit with hot water from my espresso machine and while it was temporarily painful it didn't burn me. Air or steam, on the other hand, is a different story - steam boilers obviously can fail explosively. The pictures of the machine makes it look like it has a steam wand but I think that's just because he salvaged an old boiler - I don't think he's actually bringing up the temperature in the boiler high enough to make it a steam boiler.
amelius 4y ago
I can't handle coffee anymore :( Please invent a drink that is like it but not as toxic.
- all2 4y ago
  You might enjoy matcha (especially with toasted rice in it), or ground and brewed cacao nibs. Both are earthy, a tad bit bitter, and very delicious.
  - yeswecatan 4y ago
    Yerba mate as well
    - diego_moita 4y ago
      It also contains caffeine. Depending on the variety and if it comes from male plants it can have almost as much as coffee.
LesZedCB 4y ago
This is a relevant watch by James Hoffmann on how open source espresso machines kinda turned into Decent Espresso. (edit: ok, on rewatch i guess it wasn't open source, it was kickstarter, however philosophy was the similar - use off-the-shelf components and software) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M For what it's worth, i've had a Decent DE1+ for about 2 years, and while it's very unlikely i'll change, i am excited to see what other options crop up in the coming years. for me personally, there is no competition, mainly from a quick-to-heat and pressure/flow profiling perspective, both of which are quite important to me. my understanding is the hardware side for accurate flow-profiling really is quite hard with off-the-shelf components, so the open source espresso machine is unlikely to become a widely available commodity, unlike say 3d printers which can easily be homebrewed and work amazingly well.
- ubermonkey 4y ago
  The Decent machines sure are nice, and they definitely are pricey -- more than my admittedly absurd traditional machine, even -- but with so much "smarts" I just assume that they will eventually become a maintenance nightmare. It's kind of a sad thing, but after 30 years in software I have come away with a strong bias that is best stated as "Stop putting software in things that don't need software." I'll cop to the fact that my R58 has a touchscreen controller hanging of the side, which is somewhat inelegant, but its job is limited and thus acceptable to me. (It keeps time, and has the machine ready for me in the two windows I know I like coffee while letting it sleep the rest of the time; it's also apparently the home of the smarts for the PID.)
- plaguuuuuu 4y ago
  They look amazing but they're so expensive. I can't really justify the cost. The next competitor will beat them on price.
  - NIckGeek 4y ago
    There's a machine called the Meticulous which is launching a kickstarter soon which is attempting to somewhat do this. It's a lot simpler mechanically because it's just an automated lever machine (i.e. no pump). The downside is no steam wand but tbh if I didn't already have a Decent DE1Pro I'd probably get a Meticulous or a Flair 58 and that new nanofoamer pro for milk.
intrasight 4y ago
I'd say my stovetop espresso maker is pretty open-source. And has worked fine with no changes except new gaskets for 5 years now. I did just have to replace it with a steel one since I now have induction stovetops.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  I don't consider what a moka pot makes to be "espresso", and neither do most coffee experts like SCAA.
  - intrasight 4y ago
    It's plenty strong for me. Wouldn't want it any stronger. I got it after using one in Italy for several days, and couldn't go back to drip.
    - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
      I think that's a misconception about moka pot coffee vs. a well-made espresso. Espresso isn't really "stronger" than moka pot coffee. Moka pot coffee is actually brewed at a higher temperature, but a lower pressure, than espresso. Espresso temperature is not even boiling (200 F is a common temp), but under much higher pressure by means of an electric or manual lever pump (9 bar is the common definition). The result, to me at least, is that espresso has a much "thicker" mouth feel, but much less bitterness, than moka pot coffee.
      - intrasight 4y ago
        Now that I have a kitchen with some space, I am considering getting a proper countertop espresso machine. Then I'll be able to do a proper compare and contrast.
      - lostlogin 4y ago
        Yes - I think espresso is one of the lower caffeine coffees. Cold brew is a monster. https://www.coffeeness.de/en/how-much-caffeine-in-coffee/ https://www.coffeeness.de/en/how-much-caffeine-in-coffee/
ndipatri 4y ago
I've also played around with modding my Gaggia: https://github.com/ndipatri/RoboGaggia https://github.com/ndipatri/RoboGaggia I added lots of features which didn't require high-end components... (e.g. dual PID, auto-fill, auto-cool-down, integrated scale, auto-brew, etc. etc.). With basic components, I was able to achieve a constant flow rate and pre-infusion.

188 points by lxm 4y ago

I’ve been working on a raspberry pi 0w based PID controller for my Gaggia. It’s working quite well. I think the SD card based installation flow could really help a lot of people who would otherwise need to flash an MCU. Currently it’s only doing PID temperature control. I’d like to benchmark model predictive control. I’d also like to do some of the more advanced features like pressure control, wire up a scale, and make a nice web UI.

ackfoobar 4y ago

This reminds me of the story of ZPM. It tried to use off-the-shelf components and custom software to make it work well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M The world of atoms is so much harder than the world of bits.

sho_hn 4y ago
The hardest part of hardware is mass production and support. For a lot of things doing a good one-off is merely expensive and time-intensive, but great as a hobby. That's why a lot of DIY efforts are super impressive and have satisfying results, even if you could never scale and productize them.
- buildbot 4y ago
  Right, my theoretical one off hacked espresso machine might be perfect, but requires troubleshooting or programming skills or soldering to keep it working perfect - pretty much a no go for most consumers.
mongol 4y ago
In wonder how hard they tried, really. Feels like they more or less took the money and called it quits
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  Wow, this is so unfair to them. I followed the project with intense interest from day 1, and "Feels like they more or less took the money and called it quits" is total BS. To be clear, I think the original ZPM gang got in waaaay over their heads - one of the biggest problems is that the kickstarter was just far too successful: the ZPM team had to go from building a prototype to actually worrying about how they were going to manufacture these at a sizable scale. I think it's totally fair to say they handled things quite poorly as it became clear they were struggling, and if I were a backer left with very little to show for it I'd probably be mad, too, but to say "they more or less took the money and called it quits" is not, at all, what happened.
- malermeister 4y ago
  Seems like they tried pretty hard. Here's James Hoffman, the authoritative Internet Coffee Weirdo, reviewing a prototype: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M

fellowmartian 4y ago

This is neat, but I wish we’d move from retrofitting Gaggia Classics to something more modern. Decent Espresso showed us that boiler machines for home use are a dead end, because they have too much thermal mass for rapid switching between brewing and steaming. This is why I initially considered buying a Gaggia and modding it, but ultimately got a Breville Infuser as it basically comes pre-modded and is thermocoil-based, so you can quickly switching to steaming. It’s not the fastest steaming in the world, but I think it’s actually good for beginners to learn how to steam on a slow machine.

nicolaslem 4y ago
> Decent Espresso showed us that boiler machines for home use are a dead end. Do you mean single boiler machines? Many home machines have no problem switching because they just use two boilers, one for brewing and one for steaming.
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  Yeah, double boiler is very, very worth it IMO. Our machine has a 300ml boiler for brewing the shot, and a 1 liter boiler for the steam wand and hot water wand, and it's great. I can pull shots quickly after turning the machine on because the 300ml boiler heats up fast. Steaming takes a few minutes to heat up, but once there it'll keep going for a long time, and I can keep pulling shots at the right temp in the mean time. Way happier with the double boiler machine than I was with the single boiler we used to use. Much less planning required for my own use and I can actually serve several guests a nice espresso/latte/cappuccino from the machine in a reasonable time.
  - nicolaslem 4y ago
    I agree, having the two parts of the machine working independently from each other makes a big difference even at home. Dual boilers are more common but the same concept applies to machines with dual thermocoils, like the one I picked.
  - fatnoah 4y ago

quijoteuniv 4y ago

What kind of pressure are we taking about? This project would definetely benefit with chating with a barista and understanding the principle of brewing a coffe shot, or working/getting experience with a professional machine. Personally i think the best you can get at home (unless you can afford a pro machine) is aeropress. Dead serious

ubermonkey 4y ago
>Personally i think the best you can get at home (unless you can afford a pro machine) is aeropress. Dead serious Given the notoriously grainy mouth feel of aeropress coffee, and the sheer joy I've had out of proper espresso made with even less-expensive home machines (e.g. a Rancillo Silvia, to say nothing of nicer home machines like Rockets), I'm utterly stunned by the weirdness of this assertion. I wouldn't be more puzzled if you'd said the best you can do at home is a Mr Coffee. Dead serious.
- quijoteuniv 4y ago
  Interesting, can you describe what is for you a good espresso shot?
  - ubermonkey 4y ago
    There's a certain sweetness that comes through with a well done shot, along with a real smoothness on the palette without sacrificing body. Certainly all coffee has a bit of bitter going on, but with a properly done shot -- under real pressure, with a dialed in set of variables (grind mass, desired shot mass, shot time, etc) -- it's just part of the party, not the whole thing. And you can absolutely get this at home, but you need a proper machine. (A Moka pot won't do it. People might LIKE Moka coffee -- lots do! -- but it's not the same thing.) I'd rather pull a shot from my Rocket than go to any shop in town. And, as I said, I've had shots just as good from machines much cheaper than my R58 (like the aforementioned Silvia). IME, genuinely good espresso is a fairly rare thing. The set of coffeeshops that pull consistently good shots is a much, much smaller subset of [Coffeeshops] than we might expect. What an aeropress produces is more akin to French press than anything else I've had. It's absolutely nothing like espresso. Since I'm not a French press fan, I end up not caring for it, but that's a preference thing, not an indictment of the method. When it comes to filter coffee (which is to say, non-espresso), I prefer Chemex.

naet 4y ago

I've been wanting an Espresso machine recently but it seems like they're a lot more expensive than I hoped for a decent one. I was spoiled by the one my Italian American parents had that was very nice but probably cost them a pretty penny to buy. It was a beautiful old metal machine with none of the digital bells and whistles that seem to plague the newer machines. Sometimes I use my moka pot which isn't the same but still produces very nice coffee when used right.

anon84873628 4y ago
FWIW I think the Flair brand offers the best price performance for entry level espresso. It takes more practice to get a consistent shot, but it can definitely make good coffee. There are now many good hand grinders that can do espresso grind for less than $200. Then you just need a kettle. The Wacoco products also make a solid shot, but they are even more inconvenient for home use.
- ben7799 4y ago
  I love the Flair. I've been using it around 2 years now just about every day. It's just right for home use where you're not making lots of espresso. It's simple, has basically nothing to break, wastes extremely little energy, takes up very little space on the counter, etc.. And once you get good at using it you can do lots of things that require very very expensive boiler machines to do and make very good espresso.
- bergie 4y ago
  I make coffee every morning with a Wacaco Nanopresso. It produces a pretty nice shot after you get the grind, tamping, etc dialed down. Sure, it is a bit of work to pump out the coffee, but it makes for a decent morning wake-up ritual.
binarymax 4y ago
We were given a Capresso 117.05 as a gift and it’s a really great entry level espresso machine for the price (which I just looked up). I was actually surprised how well it worked, even with a cheap palm grinder.

ladberg 4y ago

Hah, I clicked expecting an open source version of Apple's on-device ML runtime.

klausa 4y ago

Of all the things that I could possibly think of "making a DYI version of would be fun", a machine that has ~0.5-1.5 liters of boiling water at significant pressures is on the very very very end. Hats off to you if you feel comfortable with that, but I wouldn't want to be in the same _room_ as that thing.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
Water under significant pressure is not really that big of a deal. It is largely incompressible, so if there is a leak, it just, well, leaks. Sure, it can spray, but even then I've been hit with hot water from my espresso machine and while it was temporarily painful it didn't burn me. Air or steam, on the other hand, is a different story - steam boilers obviously can fail explosively. The pictures of the machine makes it look like it has a steam wand but I think that's just because he salvaged an old boiler - I don't think he's actually bringing up the temperature in the boiler high enough to make it a steam boiler.

amelius 4y ago

I can't handle coffee anymore :( Please invent a drink that is like it but not as toxic.

all2 4y ago
You might enjoy matcha (especially with toasted rice in it), or ground and brewed cacao nibs. Both are earthy, a tad bit bitter, and very delicious.
- yeswecatan 4y ago
  Yerba mate as well
  - diego_moita 4y ago
    It also contains caffeine. Depending on the variety and if it comes from male plants it can have almost as much as coffee.

LesZedCB 4y ago

This is a relevant watch by James Hoffmann on how open source espresso machines kinda turned into Decent Espresso. (edit: ok, on rewatch i guess it wasn't open source, it was kickstarter, however philosophy was the similar - use off-the-shelf components and software) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKA2COJRt6M For what it's worth, i've had a Decent DE1+ for about 2 years, and while it's very unlikely i'll change, i am excited to see what other options crop up in the coming years. for me personally, there is no competition, mainly from a quick-to-heat and pressure/flow profiling perspective, both of which are quite important to me. my understanding is the hardware side for accurate flow-profiling really is quite hard with off-the-shelf components, so the open source espresso machine is unlikely to become a widely available commodity, unlike say 3d printers which can easily be homebrewed and work amazingly well.

ubermonkey 4y ago
The Decent machines sure are nice, and they definitely are pricey -- more than my admittedly absurd traditional machine, even -- but with so much "smarts" I just assume that they will eventually become a maintenance nightmare. It's kind of a sad thing, but after 30 years in software I have come away with a strong bias that is best stated as "Stop putting software in things that don't need software." I'll cop to the fact that my R58 has a touchscreen controller hanging of the side, which is somewhat inelegant, but its job is limited and thus acceptable to me. (It keeps time, and has the machine ready for me in the two windows I know I like coffee while letting it sleep the rest of the time; it's also apparently the home of the smarts for the PID.)
plaguuuuuu 4y ago
They look amazing but they're so expensive. I can't really justify the cost. The next competitor will beat them on price.
- NIckGeek 4y ago
  There's a machine called the Meticulous which is launching a kickstarter soon which is attempting to somewhat do this. It's a lot simpler mechanically because it's just an automated lever machine (i.e. no pump). The downside is no steam wand but tbh if I didn't already have a Decent DE1Pro I'd probably get a Meticulous or a Flair 58 and that new nanofoamer pro for milk.

intrasight 4y ago

I'd say my stovetop espresso maker is pretty open-source. And has worked fine with no changes except new gaskets for 5 years now. I did just have to replace it with a steel one since I now have induction stovetops.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
I don't consider what a moka pot makes to be "espresso", and neither do most coffee experts like SCAA.
- intrasight 4y ago
  It's plenty strong for me. Wouldn't want it any stronger. I got it after using one in Italy for several days, and couldn't go back to drip.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    I think that's a misconception about moka pot coffee vs. a well-made espresso. Espresso isn't really "stronger" than moka pot coffee. Moka pot coffee is actually brewed at a higher temperature, but a lower pressure, than espresso. Espresso temperature is not even boiling (200 F is a common temp), but under much higher pressure by means of an electric or manual lever pump (9 bar is the common definition). The result, to me at least, is that espresso has a much "thicker" mouth feel, but much less bitterness, than moka pot coffee.
    - intrasight 4y ago
      Now that I have a kitchen with some space, I am considering getting a proper countertop espresso machine. Then I'll be able to do a proper compare and contrast.
    - lostlogin 4y ago
      Yes - I think espresso is one of the lower caffeine coffees. Cold brew is a monster. https://www.coffeeness.de/en/how-much-caffeine-in-coffee/ https://www.coffeeness.de/en/how-much-caffeine-in-coffee/

ndipatri 4y ago

I've also played around with modding my Gaggia: https://github.com/ndipatri/RoboGaggia https://github.com/ndipatri/RoboGaggia I added lots of features which didn't require high-end components... (e.g. dual PID, auto-fill, auto-cool-down, integrated scale, auto-brew, etc. etc.). With basic components, I was able to achieve a constant flow rate and pre-infusion.