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Hospitals are reporting new mothers for neglect from poppyseed false positives
- bongoman37 4y ago[dead]
- SketchySeaBeast 4y agoDidn't we all learn of the dangers of poppy seeds in that very special episode of Seinfeld? How could the hospital possibly not know about the false positives?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- animitronix 4y agoThese hospitals need to be sued out of existence.
- reaperducer 4y agoChances are the hospitals are following the law. A hospital isn't going to risk losing its license because someone ate the wrong muffin at the wrong time. They don't "need to be sued out of existence" any more than their thousands of patients need to have their healthcare provider yanked out from under them. The law should be changed to give them some discretion.
- thriftwy 4y agoGreeks had this procedure where you had to wear a noose have you planned to propose a new law. That one would be appropriate here.
- dahdum 4y ago> To guard against false positives, the Mandatory Guidelines for Federal Workplace Drug Testing Programs, published in 2017, require a codeine cutoff of 2,000 nanograms per milliliter of urine. But the Hackensack University Medical Center's lab, according to Kate's complaint, used a cutoff of 300 ng/ml, less than one-sixth the federal standard. Virtua Voorhees Hospital's lab, according to Kaitlin's complaint, used a cutoff of just 10 ng/ml, 99.5 percent lower than the recommended level. This makes them look pretty negligent.
- gbear605 4y agoAccording to the article, they’re acting much more strictly than the law requires (or recommends).
- Brian_K_White 4y agoThey are not following the law. The law declares a specific threshold concentration level, and they are using a level 1/200th of that. They absolutely should suffer severe recompense and punative damages for doing that. Laws should not allow discretion. That is how you get abuse and discrimination through selective enforcement. If a law would be intolerable and inhumane with 100% enforcement, then that is how you know it shouldn't exist in the first place, and is in fact still intolerable and inhumane even with discretion and selective enforcement. In this case, the law doesn't in fact exist, and no selective enforcement is needed. The law already does not say that eating poppy seeds is illegal, because that doesn't approach the level to trigger the law.
- logicalmonster 4y agoSuing the hospitals sounds like a fine idea, but nothing that strikes at the root of the problem. So long as the War on Drugs exists, you're going to have dumb as shit people interpreting dumb as shit rules in dumb as shit ways. You have to choose between having a War On Drugs, or accept that there will always be nasty, unintended consequences to it.
- whyenot 4y agoNo. If the goal is to stop this practice, then the doctors and administrators responsible should lose their licenses and be criminally prosecuted. Money and civil cases do not solve all problems. The responsible parties must be accountable for their criminal actions.
- dcchambers 4y agoForget the fact that these hospitals should be aware of the fact poppyseeds can cause false positives, they never should have administered an unauthorized drug test in the first place. That's more horrifying IMO.
- weaksauce 4y agoyeah that's really insane... this has to violate some kind of ethics standards that is actionable.
- psychphysic 4y agoIn the Beauchamp and Childress biomedical ethics model it's autonomy. Typically this would require a court order.
- ipnon 4y agoIt does make some sense to drug test patients, and a doctor does have the wide authority to order tests with some manner of invasiveness. Patients don’t want to disclose illegal drug use, even though these drugs do interact with administered therapies.
- indymike 4y ago> a doctor does have the wide authority to order tests with some manner of invasivene False. A doctor has zero ability to order tests without patient consent (or consent of a guardian) in the US. > Patients don’t want to disclose illegal drug use, This is why medical care should NEVER be directly connected to law enforcement or make conclusions. For a care provider to thing that a patient waking up, handcuffed will make that patient EVER come back for care again is insanity. Medicine should not be about punishment, ever.
- dragonwriter 4y ago> False. A doctor has zero ability to order tests without patient consent (or consent of a guardian) in the US. Hospitals generally require a very broad consent at admission.
- MagicMoonlight 4y agoHow do we know they are false positives? Of course someone being reported for neglect is going to lie. What proof do they have that it was poppy seeds? Do they have hair tests etc showing zero opiate use?
- ergonaught 4y agoSo, that’s your takeaway? You’re not concerned about nonconsensual drug testing and reporting to state agencies. You just think maybe the women are liars?
- jklinger410 4y agoFocusing on the wrong part of the problem, lol
- veec_cas_tant 4y agoIt's in the article: >The day after Kate learned that she was suspected of using opioids—five days after she gave birth—the hospital "refused to discharge" her, the complaint says. That afternoon, DCPP caseworkers separately interrogated Kate and her husband, Jesse. Kate agreed to a second urine test, which came up negative. She was finally released that evening, but her baby did not come home until October 1, "ten days after her birth and five days after DCPP cleared Kate to bring her baby home." > Although the DCPP "cleared Kate and Jesse to take baby A.L. home," the hospital kept the baby for another five days, and the agency's investigation continued. It included a "Certified Alcohol and Drug Counseling evaluation" and yet another urine test, which was "negative for all substances." In November, Kate received a letter saying the DCPP had concluded that "the allegation of neglect was 'unfounded.'"
- Hizonner 4y ago>The day after Kate learned that she was suspected of using opioids—five days after she gave birth—the hospital "refused to discharge" her, the complaint says. That was unlawful detention, by the way. By fraud, under false color of authority, and/or by force. They have no authority to hold anybody against their will (with very specific exceptions having to do with mental state and not applicable here). > She was finally released that evening, but her baby did not come home until October 1, "ten days after her birth and five days after DCPP cleared Kate to bring her baby home." That was kidnapping, by the way. We're talking about actual felonies here. Not that you can get prosecutors interested in that kind of crime, but it's still true.
- sublinear 4y agoHow is this still a problem with drug tests? This has been happening for decades now.
- Angostura 4y agoI presume because the seeds do contain trace amounts. ISTR New Scientist doing a fun article many decades ago about all the psychoactive items in a traditional British afternoon tea. Quite a lot of laudanum in some varieties of lettuce
- freeone3000 4y agoHeroin is made from poppy seeds. We decided that eating small amounts of the seeds is delicious, and injecting small amounts of the paste is multi-year prison sentence. The test can only test for (a protein found in) the seeds.
- efnx 4y agoHeroin isn’t made from poppy seeds, it’s made from the latex secreted by the seed pod. but yeah, other than that detail, agreed.
- bongoman37 4y ago[dead]
- thfuran 4y agoBecause it isn't really a problem with the tests but rather the interpretation of the test. They're not actually false positives — poppy seeds do contain opiates. The problem is assuming that detecting opiates at a very low level implies a drug habit and not a deli habit
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sigstoat 4y agoit's mostly a problem with screens, simple, inexpensive tests that should only be used a precursor to running an expensive test involving mass spectrometers. usually the manufacturer of the screening test mentions this in the documentation, that nobody feels like reading. certainly not the administrators implementing/enforcing the policies.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y agoEh. I kinda understand the origin of semi-nanny state US has been turning into. Medical facility is just one of the places that can ( and sometimes is legally obligated to ) report you for even suspected transgression. The rules are sometimes difficult to follow to the letter so the general approach is to 'report and let god sort them out' ( in the case of financial industry, if you are interested in Orwellian language, it was called 'defensive' filing ). This is where we are. We are not here by accident. Each time a 'feel good' proposal was made, 'for the children' argument countered any reasoned argument against it. I am a parent and I already had a taste of this intrusion into my life by our kid's doctor ( she asked me whether I have guns in my house -- and my wife answered before I could even say 'It is not your business' ). It is going to get worse until it sufficiently pisses off the population. We are not there yet.
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago> To guard against false positives, the Mandatory Guidelines for Federal Workplace Drug Testing Programs, published in 2017, require a codeine cutoff of 2,000 nanograms per milliliter of urine. But the Hackensack University Medical Center's lab, according to Kate's complaint, used a cutoff of 300 ng/ml, less than one-sixth the federal standard. Virtua Voorhees Hospital's lab, according to Kaitlin's complaint, used a cutoff of just 10 ng/ml, 99.5 percent lower than the recommended level. Using a cutoff that is 200 times more strict than standard drug testing practices without giving the patient any warning that they’ll be tested (and guidance to avoid poppy seed foods) is asking for false positives. Given that the other cases resulted in six-figure settlements, it’s surprising that this practice continues.
- nullc 4y ago> Given that the other cases resulted in six-figure settlements, it’s surprising that this practice continues. a six figure settlement is a rounding error for these institutions. Given their inefficiency it could easily cost many times that just to change their practices and train doctors to not do the wrong thing. Funding incentives for child welfare agencies also encourage them to cast a wide net (and miseducated mandatory reporters).
- MikeDelta 4y agoI seriously hope they sue and get an 8 figure settlement, or even more. And legal consequences for those involved.
- giantg2 4y agoMandatory reporters might be reporting everything, not out of miseducation, but rather out of fear of overzealous prosecutors.
- dahdum 4y ago> a six figure settlement is a rounding error for these institutions. Given their inefficiency it could easily cost many times that just to change their practices and train doctors to not do the wrong thing. They refused to discharge the mother for days and kept the baby in the NICU for an extra week. Average cost per day for the NICU is ~$3k/day. Six-figure settlements aren't enough if they get away with it frequently.
- grumple 4y agoIs it not illegal to perform nonconsensual, nonemergency testing on people? The people that authorized this at the hospital should go to prison for that imo.
- lostlogin 4y agoThe young, old and unwell are not able to give consent. Dealing with that should be a routine part of every day work in a hospital.
- chris_wot 4y agoI once went to the hospital with my fiancé. The doctor insisted on a pregnancy test before an xray, despite my fiancé insisting she was celibate. I’ll never forget the look of horror on the nurses face when she found out what he was requiring.
- irrational 4y agoMy wife has already passed through menopause, but they still insisted on a pregnancy test before back surgery recently.
- anonymouskimmer 4y agoBeing post-menopause is almost 100%, not quite 100%. https://healthnews.com/womens-health/menopause/can-you-get-pregnant-after-menopause/ https://healthnews.com/womens-health/menopause/can-you-get-p... > Generally speaking, postmenopausal pregnancy is unlikely, although not entirely impossible. HRT will not trigger the ovaries to produce new eggs. If a woman has remaining eggs after menopause, HRT might trigger the release of an egg. There are few reports of postmenopausal women conceiving naturally, but this is very rare.
- irrational 4y agoWell, she is post menopausal, but still has in an IUD and we always use a condom. There is less than zero chance of her getting pregnant.
- psychphysic 4y agoThat's totally different situation ethically. He was open and made a recommended investigation contingent or knowledge of the risks. And she could decide the invasiveness of peeing on a stick is not worth the benefit of being able to have an x-ray. On the other hand no offer was made. A test was illegally applied (even if you can force someone to have a test they must know about it), incorrectly interpreted with unjustly severe outcome. Also, you can be a celibate lesbian nun and in some countries you can't get prescribed valproate without having a coil or implant. Seems much more problematic.
- nullc 4y agoI'd love to see a study that tried to estimate to that extent absurd, invasive, and overly protective nannie policies cause people to choose to not have children at all, contributing to declining birth rates? How many kids never get to exist at all because the government and other institutions have made it ever more obnoxious, even personally dangerous, to have one?
- MiguelX413 4y agoAny examples of such policies?
- nullc 4y agoHere is an article that discusses policy/fertility interactions in Canada https://thehub.ca/2023-03-14/counting-up-canadas-missing-kids-lyman-stone-on-why-half-of-women-are-falling-short-of-their-fertility-desires/ https://thehub.ca/2023-03-14/counting-up-canadas-missing-kid... But the examples I had in mind were parents getting prosecuted for letting their children outside unsupervised (several stories on HN in the last year or two), or examples in this thread like overzealous mandatory reporting in the original article or someones pediatric doctor becoming a problem after asking if they have guns in their home. Anecdotally I know people for whom concerns about invasive bureaucracies caused them to choose to delay or not have children, as well as people who relocated to places which they thought had better practices before doing so. Anecdotes don't count for much but I think it's not controversial that have many policies that are ineffective. Any policy that doesn't actually protect children but imposes a risk or cost on parents is probably a net reduction on the production of new adults, but maybe only a very small one.
- BoxFour 4y agoprobably close to zero? There’s considerable debate over whether even China’s “One Child” policy had any direct effect or it just happened to coincide with a natural decline in birth rates that would’ve happened in China regardless. If it’s not even clear that an incredibly blunt government policy had that much of a direct effect, I’m not sure what research could possibly turn up for other nations.
- perakojotgenije 4y agoThe image in the text shows a bagel with some poppy seed sprinkled on it. If I compare that to poppy seed strudel[0] the amount of seed on that picture is laughable. I wonder what would the test show after a few slices of said strudel. Are those strudels available in USA? [0]https://www.google.com/search?q=poppy+seed+strudel&hl=hr&sxsrf=APwXEdeEulnX1SOBEcxoWIuIF6FynpZQ_g:1679768403827&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizh4_42Pf9AhUbiv0HHUp3DZgQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1707&bih=867&dpr=1.5 https://www.google.com/search?q=poppy+seed+strudel&hl=hr&sxs...
- dghlsakjg 4y agoDefinitely available in the states. I had to do a USA federally mandated drug test for a license once and one of the questions they ask before administering is if you have had poppy seeds recently.
- phil21 4y agoThese exist, although pretty rare these days to come across them in my experience. You can still get the filling by the can in most grocery stores. Nothing like a warm poppy seed kolache...
- CapstanRoller 4y agoThose strudels are widely available in the USA, at least in major cities and upscale grocery stores. Yes, consuming them will trigger a drug test.
- anotheruser13 4y agoYou can get yummy puppy seed cake rolls from any Polish bakery. The international fresh market nearby when I used to live got them from Polish bakeries on Milwaukee Ave in Chicago. My dad used to make a really good poppy seed coffee cake, too.
- civilized 4y agoHorrible, but, completely unrelated question. How much poppy seed would I need to eat to get high?
- srean 4y agoYou will probably die trying if you go that route. The 'high' chemicals are in the fleshy, sappy part of the fruit. Some traces may remain on the seed.
- Scoundreller 4y agoEhhhhh, not always: https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2022/11/poppy-seeds-not-meant-for-food-chain-behind-australian-illnesses/ https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2022/11/poppy-seeds-not-meant...
- srean 4y agoI am not sure whether you were agreeing with me or refuting, but the article you linked vindicates my stand -- you may die trying and not get a hit.
- Scoundreller 4y agoThis time it was a high-thébaine batch, but no reason it couldn’t have been a high-morphine batch. The thébaine is found in the pod the same way as morphine is, not the seed itself. But if the seeds aren’t washed enough and the variety isn’t a low alkaloid one… Not sure how much the manufacturers test. Obviously one wasn’t testing for thébaine.
- srean 4y agoThat sounds plausible indeed.
- CapstanRoller 4y agoThe chemicals are on the seeds as well, sometimes to a significant degree, unless they're processed before sale. You're right about the danger of trying it.
- swayvil 4y agoOpium users are the new agents of satan. Ripe for scapegoating and asset forfeiture. It's a symptom of social pressure. Like when the ratcage gets too crowded and they start eating each other.
- tristor 4y agoThere are at least 5 separate issues at play here, but the one most front-and-center in my mind is that under no circumstance should any medical procedure be done on any person in the US without informed consent of the person, their guardian, or their medical PoA. Even if a procedure is "medically necessary", that does not give doctors the permission to do that procedure without your informed consent. When a procedure is not "medically necessary", it's even worse. There are people who refuse "medically necessary" procedures every day in this country on numerous different grounds, including religious grounds, and this is deeply legally protected and well upheld in case law. There is no valid justification for the behavior of these hospitals.
- anonymouskimmer 4y agoCollection of a sample could generously be considered a medical "procedure" done on a person. But if a sample has already been collected for other purposes, testing said sample for an additional purpose can't be even generously said to be a medical procedure done on a person. The lack of informed consent as to what will happen with a collected sample is the thing. It's also incredibly stupid, as without informed consent a person can't think to tell the collector that they've recently eaten a poppyseed bagel, and thus their results will be tainted.
- 015a 4y agoInsurance companies would absolutely classify each specific test done on a specimen as a medical procedure. Each one costs money.
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago"done on a person"
- swayvil 4y agoAirport security and this are strongly parallel. Both a kind of theater. Nobody believes it but we're all forced to play along.
- pjdemers 4y agoThey don't watch Mythbusters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIN7cq8Mc-4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIN7cq8Mc-4 Or Seinfield? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzuQr7YVYg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYzuQr7YVYg
- lostlogin 4y agoWhat a shambles. And if she was abusing the drug, treating it as a legal problem rather than a healthcare one is also tedious. No attitude like this exists with alcohol, yet that drug seems to cause the odd problem.
- petermcneeley 4y ago"She had no idea that her urine would be tested for drugs, which resulted in a terrifying, monthslong investigation aimed at determining if she was a fit mother." I dont think she should be surprised; you give up rights when you become incarcerated.
- chrisbolt 4y agoWhere did it say they were incarcerated?