55 ms·

Framework Laptop 16

682 points by wdavidw 4y ago

fbn79 4y ago
Playing with configurator what surprise me is that a Windows 11 Pro licence cost 259 Euro. Micro$oft still make a lot of money with windonws =)
- reisse 4y ago
  I wonder, do they sell retail licence or re-sell OEM licence at retail price? Anyway, I'm not sure if anyone really buys Windows at retail prices. Enterprise (subscription) and OEM costs are much lower, and for personal use you can buy OEM keys off eBay or AliExpress for a few bucks.
  - dijit 4y ago
    License costs are weird. The opaqueness of Windows licensing for "pro" devices makes us assume that there are heavy discounts, which massively depends on the manufacturer- framework could not be at a size that gives them preferential pricing (even if we assume that licensing is cheaper for other companies). I can say that it is more ordinary for end users to get discounts rather than OEMs, unless there is a lot of negotiation (including bundling crapware, as we well know) in the tech industry when it comes to bulk licensing.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - vbezhenar 4y ago
    > for personal use you can buy OEM keys off eBay or AliExpress for a few bucks. Is it legal? If it's not, isn't it easier to just use crack? E.g. pirate KMS server.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      Gray market
    - GuB-42 4y ago
      It is not legal, but the advantage is that you don't have to deal with shady software like that pirate KMS server. Even though it is a breach of contract because it is not how these licences are supposed to be used, it is still recognized as genuine by Microsoft, so you get all the updates, etc... You may get your license revoked it the seller get caught and as a result, you may need to get a new one. As an individual, you are extremely unlikely to get into more trouble (same thing as with cracked software), but I wouldn't use these licenses as a business.
      - messe 4y ago
        I was under the impression that reselling keys can be legal in the EU (at least in some circumstances)?
        nix23 4y ago
        [dead]
      - richthegeek 4y ago
        If the breach of contract is by the seller, then how does that result in illegality on the part of the buyer?
        GuB-42 4y ago
        I don't think it is illegal on the part of the buyer, who would be a victim in this situation. But just like buying counterfeit goods, it is not clear to me, I mean if you buy your key from AliExpress, isn't it like importing counterfeits from China? That's something one should ask a lawyer. Anyways, these keys can be revoked any moment (and it has happened to me, with an Office key). If I had a business, I would avoid them for that reason alone.
        4y ago
  - vetinari 4y ago
    Interesting bit, that many people miss: The enteprise windows license is not "standalone", you cannot use it with any device. You may use it only with device, that came with valid OEM or retail license.
- RGamma 4y ago
  I bought mine for like 4 bucks. Digital license linked to my account :>
  - drapado 4y ago
    Care to explain how?
    - RGamma 4y ago
      Got it from an independent license vendor (https://www.license4you.de/windows-11-pro-neu?number=ID-100507 https://www.license4you.de/windows-11-pro-neu?number=ID-1005..., but there's several). I have no idea how they get the keys (probably OEM) and whether this is actually kosher (and I don't wanna know) but I did this with Win 10 some years ago as well and it has worked out thus far. Just pay with e.g. PP and they'll send you the key via e-mail.
    - williamvds 4y ago
      Grey market key resellers, apparently using volume licensing. It's a roll of the dice whether they'll stay valid, possibly because the same key is resold repeatedly, or Microsoft blacklists them.
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  So if I buy a computer with Win 11 then I can claim €259 back as long as I wrote it and install Linux? Isn't that how things worked before with Windows-tax automatically applied to all retail computers in major chain stores? That clearly won't work, as one could get free computers ... but what is the situation in getting reimbursements of Windows-tax?
  - dagw 4y ago
    So if I buy a computer with Win 11 then I can claim €259 back Anybody else remember Windows Refund Day? Some OEMs actually did offer a refund of around $30-50, which was the cost of an OEM license at the time. Although many court cases around the world have since then ruled that you don't have a right to claim a refund for unused OEM licenses.
    - nicolaslem 4y ago
      Yes, I got my Windows license refunded years ago. AFAIK it was not simply getting a refund for something unused, but rather the fact that the hardware and the software were two distinct products that were bundled together without the consumer having a say.
  - nrp 4y ago
    We have the Framework Laptop DIY Edition that ships without an OS or OS license specifically to make sure folks don’t have to do this and can bring the OS that they want.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >what surprise me is that a Windows 11 Pro licence cost 259 Euro. Micro$oft still make a lot of money with windonws =) Not really. Windows 11 Pro retail is $199 today which might sound steep but in comparison Windows XP Pro retail was $299 in 2001 which adjusted for inflation would be $500 today. Ouch! Windows 95 retailed at a whopping $205 in '95 or ~$400 in today's money, while a retail Win 11 Home is $139 now. So Windows has actually gotten massively cheaper, which is weird considering that OS complexity, update frequency has increased and SW dev salaries and expenses have gone up since then.
  - flatiron 4y ago
    They make money on OS ads now to subsidize the cost
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      That and no more customer support to pay for. Plus, the consumer prices are probably subsidized by the massive volumes in OEM licenses and O365 subscriptions.
      - okasaki 4y ago
        Microsoft never had customer support. If you had a problem you either called your grandson or took it to the local computer repair shop. Maybe you mean QA testers.
  - Otek 4y ago
    But Microsoft is making now money from tracking and they didn’t do that in ‘95
- vhodges 4y ago
  You want to look at the DIY options (it's not terribly hard to install the RAM and storage), for no Windows tax.
hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
Related discussion from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660
- 5mv2 4y ago
  This thread is a goldmine! 390 comments, and many from current users. Thank you for sharing.
  - echelon 4y ago
    One of my least favorite things about the Framework 13 was the low midrange feel of the system. The customization experience is top notch, but the computing itself was underwhelming. This new entry should fix that problem. I'll probably pick one up.
cupofjoakim 4y ago
GPU modularity makes the framework even more interesting for small form factor pc projects. I might pick it up for my re-imagining of the ibm ps/2 laptop.
- nrp 4y ago
  We would love to see that project! As before, we’re making the key modules possible to get good use of outside of the laptop.
komadori 4y ago
I hope it's possible to fit a pointing stick (TrackPoint) keyboard within that 3.7mm, and that someone first- or third-party makes one. I'm keen to try replacing my ThinkPad with a Framework as soon as that's available, but not before.
- dgrabla 4y ago
  Years using the trackpoint gave me carpal tunnel. Try not to use it exclusively.
  - Arch-TK 4y ago
    How many years exactly? I am at almost 9 years of use and I have not felt the slightest hint of any problem (for reference I have in the past suffered from carpal tunnel related issues so I know what it feels like).
    - jojobas 4y ago
      25 years, no issues. Maybe with sensitivity way down you do start pressing too much on it.
      - reirob 4y ago
        Same here
  - jeff_carr 4y ago
    I've been using a nipplemouse for at least 20 years. Exclusively. I hate trackpads. I always disable mine. I always use tables that my elbows rest on the table.
    - Epa095 4y ago
      How do you scroll? You reach for the pgdown?
      - 4y ago
WesolyKubeczek 4y ago
Alas, it's got a 16:9 screen with its infamous ugly chin :-( I'd like a chinless 16:10 or 3:2 goodness (or 4:3), even if it was at a hefty markup. UPD: it's a 16:10 display, but the chin is still ugly.
- markstos 4y ago
  The chin lefts the screen a bit for better ergonomics.
  - WesolyKubeczek 4y ago
    I thought you could have inexpensive laptop stands that also raise the keyboard a bit to the same effect. Try one, they are amazing. And they improve the airflow, too.
    - CarVac 4y ago
      For proper ergonomics you want the keyboard at elbow level and the top of the screen at eye level.
    - markstos 4y ago
      I use a laptop stand at my desk, but a laptop chin helps to not bend the neck so much when the laptop is on a… lap.
- notRobot 4y ago
  You're wrong. It's a 16:10 screen. CEO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280523
  - Aachen 4y ago
    Ugh. After over a decade of work, everything was finally adapted to or made for 16:9, now they're going after hipster ratios? Not a deal breaker but a bummer. Interesting that phones are going the other way, so now we can enjoy letterboxes on both platforms and not be able to reach the notification drawer. What was so wrong with 16:9 that we needed another competing standard that's just slightly off...
cue_the_strings 4y ago
If only they would make a laptop with an AMD processor, no discrete graphics + someone makes a decent keyboard with a trackpoint for it, I'd immediately buy 2, I don't care about the price. It's also likely that I'd be able to convince my employer to switch from thinkpads to this. Btw, it's ironic that the much cheaper T series Thinkpads work much better with Linux and are much more reliable than the X1 series. Intel processors of this generation are just not energy effiecient and run too hot.
- diffeomorphism 4y ago
  https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ > now available with AMD Ryzen 7040 Still only preorder, but you can buy it with AMD now.
  - cue_the_strings 4y ago
    WOW! I think I'm going to pre-order one, trackpoint be damned! My wife is a bit suspicious of these laptops, let's see how this one fares. I just need to check if it'll work with my Thinkpad Thunderbolt 3 dock (or something similar, I can buy another dock) to output to 2x 4K (actually 3840x2560, so bigger than 4K) monitors. I can currently both power my Thinkpad, and connect all the peripherals, with 1 USB-C cable. It's not something I'm willing to forgo.
    - Terretta 4y ago
      It does work with 2 x 4K TB3 docks, and you only need a single cable with USB-C charging and monitors you can daisy chain.
      - cue_the_strings 4y ago
        I know that the Intel one does, I'm just looking for definite confirmation that the AMD one does. I'll shoot them an e-mail.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Leimi 4y ago
This is starting to be a really interesting choice compared to sticking to thinkpads. The dream would be to have 6 expansion cards in the laptop 13. 4 really is a bummer for a work laptop, it's definitely not enough for me… And while you can easily carry other expansion cards and switch at will, it's kinda like carrying adapters, you easily forget them.
- rvense 4y ago
  I wish there was a single module with two USB-A ports, but I don't think they're wide enough.
  - bleep_bloop 4y ago
    That would be an extremely niche use case. Can't imagine any scenario needing more than 2-3 x USB A ports outdoors. In any case it would make much more sense to use a dock.
    - speed_spread 4y ago
      Niche? One for the keyboard, one for the mouse. That's a normal computer, if you believe wires are better than Bluetooth.
      - justeleblanc 4y ago
        We're talking about a laptop. What's the point of a laptop if you're just going to make it into an underpowered desktop? And it's not like mouses and keyboards need a 4Gbps connection to the host. Plug them into a tiny hub. You're already lugging a keyboard and mouse around, why not a hub too?
        vidarh 4y ago
        My laptop is "an underpowered desktop" 90% of the time, but it saves me from having a second machine the remaining part of the time. But I agree regarding ports - at home my mouse and keyboard are plugged into a cheap KVM switch, so I still need only one USB port on the laptop; If I needed to lug them with me I'd certainly just bring a hub too.
nix23 4y ago
[dead]
Aachen 4y ago
"Finally!", I wanted to say, but it's not actually out yet. No prices known. No specs given. I've signed up for the newsletter. My personal laptop is getting pretty old now. Really hoping it's not going to be a Fairphone price–performance+usability ratio, but I'm most definitely going to consider this as my first option!
- nrp 4y ago
  Yes, for today, we’re showing an early developer preview to let folks get started on Expansion Bay and especially Input Module development. We’ll share more information on the laptop this spring and throughout the year.
column 4y ago
why did they butcher the Entry key instead of making the tab key narrower?
- lexicality 4y ago
  What do you mean?
- Macha 4y ago
  The laptop pictured has a US keyboard layout, that's just how the US keyboard layout is. They also have an ISO/most-of-world keyboard layout (with options for qwerty/qwertz/azerty labelling, at least on last gen), as seen on the laptop ad in the footer (assuming the link doesn't get changed from the french site after I post that comment, if it does, just go look up the order form on an EU site)
  - chrismorgan 4y ago
    > ISO/most-of-world I’m not certain, but I’m under the impression that the ANSI layout is more common than ISO: that, potentially simplifying a tad, ISO is used in Europe, JIS in Japan, and ANSI everywhere else. (I have experience in Australia, New Zealand, India and the United States, and they all use ANSI.)
    - joseda-hg 4y ago
      ISO is also used in South America, so it's maybe a "European language that's not english" thing All the countries you mentioned are English Speaking (Or have a really significant English speaking population), maybe that's why they all use ANSI
  - nrp 4y ago
    That is correct, we are making both ANSI and ISO Keyboard Modules for the Framework Laptop 16.
- alias_neo 4y ago
  I think that's US layout. I assume they'll have a proper Enter key on the ISO layouts.
unwind 4y ago
Framework have a very ... localization-interested website, that can be confusing some times in my opinion. The link here seems to go to the French (hence the /fr/fr/ in the URI) version of the blog post, but I still got to see it in English. Confusing. Here [1] is the non-localized version. [1]: https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16 https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16
- bootloop 4y ago
  I guess its because they didn't translate the article into french. What I also find confusing is that when you change the language, the controls are still in the original language. I can guess what button is for changing the language but still not a great design.
  - tracker1 4y ago
    Yeah... considering there are good browser APIs and most server platforms support language matching, that they could relatively easily deliver language content without specific language endpoints. Not that it's easy, just completely doable if it's a significant concern.
    - jiehong 4y ago
      Automatic language matching is a real pain actually. - sometimes the article / product is only available in 1 language and the redirection leads nowhere (I’ve seen it many times) - the language of my phone/computer does not match the one where I live, and even maybe not the language I used to search for that thing in the first place. So yeah, I never like it, especially when you live near the border of multiple countries and websites want to select the language based on location…. It would be nice if language selection was standardised and browsers would just offer a button and a default choice that websites would follow: no need to hunt for the language box on websites.
      - tracker1 4y ago
        I wish language selection in OS and Browser were easier to access... but your browser does send a language header with your request, which generally matches your browser. Location based is and can be a pain. I live in a border state and often get spanish versions of sites... I also follow a couple prominent youtubers who post english and foreign language content, so sometimes get results in those languages, that I don't read. That said, using the default for the browser, and allowing override isn't a bad thing... I usually look for something that looks like a flag in the upper right, for language selection. And the few times I've written multi-language sites/apps that's the UX I prefer to use. I would default to browser/header, I would respond to the change event, and if the user selects a preference, set a cookie and use that first. Again, I do wish it were easier to switch for the browser itself. 1. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Accept-Language https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Ac... 2. https://github.com/i18next/i18next-browser-languageDetector/blob/master/src/browserLookups/navigator.js https://github.com/i18next/i18next-browser-languageDetector/... 3. https://github.com/i18next/i18next-browser-languageDetector https://github.com/i18next/i18next-browser-languageDetector 4. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/languagechange_event https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/lang...
delta_p_delta_x 4y ago
At a notebook-specific forum I frequent[1], a user has noticed that the Framework 16 modular discrete graphics solution uses a connector first used by Dell in its Precision 7530 and 7730 workstation notebooks, released in 2018. The connector is called 'Dell Graphics Form Factor' (DGFF), and is the array of gold LGA pads on the motherboard seen in the bottom-right screenshot in a photo, at the above link. Dell has been using DGFF ever since, in all Precision 7XXX notebooks and the Alienware Area-51m, to facilitate modular GPUs. However, Dell changes its notebook layout every two years, so these GPUs are not upgradeable after two generations (so a 7530 could be upgraded to a GPU from a 7540, but not a GPU from a 7550, released in 2020). It's going to be interesting how Framework adapts the connector for its own use. The Dell cards are fairly high-powered; in the most recent 7770 (17" workstation), the RTX 3080 Ti and Quadro RTX A5000 cards may draw up to 130 W. Some examples of previous and current DGFF discrete cards (all by Dell, for Dell notebooks) are here[2][3][4][5]. Notice the difference to the previous mobile GPU connection standard, MXM 3[6], which was used by Dell in its Precisions until 2018, when it changed to DGFF, HP in its ZBooks until about 2020 when it changed to a soldered solution. Other notebook ODMs like Clevo and Tongfang still use MXM cards in their desktop replacement notebooks. I'm not sure if Clevo still sells these monsters; they had a 780 W power brick, itself heavier than many slimmer notebooks. [1]: https://notebooktalk.net/topic/873-precision-7680-precision-7780-pre-release-discussion-raptor-lake-2023/?do=findComment&comment=29221&_rid=105 https://notebooktalk.net/topic/873-precision-7680-precision-... [2]: https://imgur.com/aMal40L https://imgur.com/aMal40L : Quadro P3200 (Pascal), Quadro RTX 3000, Quadro RTX 5000 (latter two Turing) [3]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/IMG_20190109_162933.jpg https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/... : GTX 1080? in Dell Alienware Area-51m [4]: https://dl.dell.com/content/guides/public/Html/precision_7560_sm/images/GUID-E73B16BE-6A77-4FD7-93A8-58F15884F77F-low.jpg https://dl.dell.com/content/guides/public/Html/precision_756... : new form factor for 7X50 and 7X60 generations [5]: https://dl.dell.com/content/guides/public/Html/precision_7670_sm/images/GUID-E4A43D93-E55E-4A75-A9E3-410D91DD4B68-low.jpg https://dl.dell.com/content/guides/public/Html/precision_767... : newer still form factor for 7X70 and now 7X80 generation [6]: https://i.imgur.com/Exp6w0g.png https://i.imgur.com/Exp6w0g.png : MXM GPUs
- vidarh 4y ago
  If I could get a hefty one to use at home, and be able to do without on the rare occasions I take my laptop out of the house, it'd be a strong incentive to get one of these. I've been pondering going back to using a desktop at home since my laptop is docked most of the time and it'd be nice to have a GPU that's unreasonably power-hungry for a laptop, but I really like not having to have two separate machines.
virtualritz 4y ago
I can't seem to find any info on display resolution on their website. Am I blind?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- nrp 4y ago
  What we shared today is an early developer preview of the new module systems. We’ll be sharing full product specifications when we open pre-orders this Spring.
- wanda 4y ago
  16:10 was mentioned in a comment somewhere, no mention of a specific resolution. Framework 13 has a resolution of 2256x1504 (3:2)[0] [0]: https://frame.work/gb/en/laptop-comparison https://frame.work/gb/en/laptop-comparison
Snuupy 4y ago
for the 16": - I would love an option to have upwards firing speakers where flex/numpad space goes instead (one on each side). - please improve the bass in the speakers. according to notebookcheck's review, framework speakers have poor/near 0 bass output. - please offer either a 1080p or 4k screen option on the 16". 1440p-ish screens with DPI scaling hackery is no fun and often leads to blurry UIs.
- hdhrufjdi 4y ago
  It's a software problem of the software you are using, and not a hardware problem.
  - tracker1 4y ago
    Of course... that said, MANY software are dated and aren't or won't be implementing scaling any time soon. For those of us using Linux, it's even worse. This doesn't mean that the hardware shouldn't consider the existing software ecosystem. A 4k display with 2x scaling is often a good option for laptops. My vision at computer distance isn't great in general, usually on a 32" 1440p display for desktop use. I generally can barely handle the micro size of higher res on laptops.
- kuschku 4y ago
  > DPI scaling hackery Under X11 with KDE, or under Windows, that's no problem whatsoever. 144dpi isn't any more hacky than 96dpi or 192dpi. It's only macOS, Gnome and Wayland that require 1x or 2x scaling (which is absolutely mind-bogglingly ridiculous, and anyone that contributed to that or encouraged that should be banned from ever touching UI code again).
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    Fractional scaling on Linux is still hit or miss in my experience. I played with several permutations of Wayland/X11/GNOME (with fractional enabled)/KDE and none got it 100% right, and even under the setup that got closest some programs acted confused. It’s certainly not as painless as fractional scaling on Windows, where only truly ancient/esoteric programs pose issues typically.
jalapenos 4y ago
I'm thinking of my next laptop. I only use it for work (programmer) plus maybe play movies. I have no interest in games. I don't like Windows, and am so-so about Mac, so that probably leaves Ubuntu, which I already use outside of my day job. Are these the kinds of laptops I should buy? Or are there other recommendations?
- acidburnNSA 4y ago
  These are probably fine. I went with a System76 Linux laptop in 2020 and it's doing awesomely still. Love it.
- kapperchino 4y ago
  I would say yes as these are extremely repairable and upgradable.
dakial1 4y ago
I wonder if there is a market for a framework gaming laptop. Really hope there is. Also, on another note, I've read this engadget article about how other companies tried to build an upgradeable laptop and failed but I see Framework as a different kind of beast for one simple reason. This is their only value proposition, they don't have an alternative. In a very "Innovator's Dilemma" kind of. way, Dell and other big manufacturers have their main lines with higher margins and/or volume that really drives their attention and money, so any new innovation that takes more than 1 to 3 years to mature gets cut pretty fast. For Framework is kind a kind of "burn the ships" moment, they don't have anything else to turn to, so they have to keep pushing. I really hope they shine (and don't get acquired)!
- afavour 4y ago
  I’d be surprised if there was a market for a Framework laptop dedicated to gaming but I am really intrigued by a Framework laptop that can game. I use my laptop for my work software engineering but since the pandemic have gotten back into gaming a little. I’m on an old Xbox and it’s showing its age but I don’t game enough to justify buying a whole gaming PC. If I can plug a GPU into my work machine and play some games? Now that’s compelling. The fact that it wouldn’t have all the cringey “gamer” decorations you see on the average gaming laptop would be a bonus too. (all that said a Steam Deck is probably still the more compelling purchase for me in that regard, I’ve been eyeing one for a while)
  - _fat_santa 4y ago
    > Framework laptop dedicated to gaming Isn't one of the advantages of Framework that you can swap out parts, so it would be much easier for them (theoretically) to build a gaming version of the laptop.
  - zahrc 4y ago
    Definitely go with the Steam Deck. It’s literally a portable pc which you can turn adhoc into a workstation, plug into a TV for sofa gaming and it’s really really bang for buck. The performance is amazing, the community caring and it runs on Linux.
  - 4y ago
nanna 4y ago
Anyone have experience running Debian or Guix System on a Framework laptop?
- brandhout 4y ago
  Both work fine. https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91
- vhodges 4y ago
  fwiw, I am running NixOS and it seems to work quite nicely.
codedokode 4y ago
Finally, a proper screen size instead of toy-level 13 inches. You cannot code on a 13-inch display (unless you have eagle's eyes and use tiny font) and it feels like the only use for 13-inch laptop is to watch videos and photos on social network sites while sitting in a cafe which makes it a toy, not a real laptop for work (but Apple seems to be selling such toy laptops successfully). By the way the current trend is to install wide, but low height screens. What's the use of such screens? For coding, reading articles or working with documents height is more important than width, but manufacturers lower the height and extend the width. Regarding keyboard layout, it is designed poorly: it has small Up/Down keys (easy to hit the wrong key) and it doesn't have Page Up/Down and End/Home keys which are necessary for coding or working with documents (but it has useless CapsLock key). What is the intended use of the keyboard? To post short messages on social network sites. They seem to copy the layout from toy laptops without much thinking about the target audience. They claim that "Whether you’re a gamer, developer, heavy Linux user, creator, or have other performance-demanding work, the Framework Laptop 16 is built to be customized to your needs.". No, your keyboard doesn't match the needs of those audiences (except for gamers and vi users who can program even on a calculator). Also, many non-Latin based languages have more that 26 letters, but the keyboard doesn't offer additional keys for those letters, and two additional keys to switch to Latin and non-Latin layout. Nobody seems to care about this. Not Apple, not Framework, nor ordinary laptop vendors do not want to adapt keyboards to non-Latin languages and think that 26 keys should be enough for everyone.
- hkt 4y ago
  > You cannot code on a 13-inch display When I was young and poor, I used to code on an Asus EeePC with a 9" screen and half sized keyboard. It wasn't ideal but actually, it was fine.
  - echelon 4y ago
    I put Linux on a Sony Vaio P and did homework and Python coding on it.
- afavour 4y ago
  > You cannot code on a 13-inch display That’s news to me, I’ve been doing it for years.
panick21_ 4y ago
One of my favorite things for keyboards is the ThinkPad feature where the Page Up and Page Down is above the Left and Right key. I don't understand why others don't do this, its so practical. Specially in cases like this, there is just an empty space there. Why not put 2 more keys? ThinkPad also makes them full sized keys, that would be even better. But just having empty space? Why?
- tracker1 4y ago
  Hadn't really thought about it... kind of gotten used to Fn+up/down on most laptops. Though I rarely use a laptop except while traveling and that's usually on vacation, so limited use. At home, laptop for work is docked, and my personal doesn't get used much.
- savef 4y ago
  Ha, that's an interesting take. My Dell work laptop has these (not full-sized) and I don't like them at all. There's nothing fun about trying to use the arrows and accidentally slipping onto a key that isn't usually there, which might scroll my cursor/window by a huge amount. My fingers expect no space there, so it makes the whole area less distinct to touch to have the spaces filled.
  - ochoseis 4y ago
    On my OS you can use CTRL+PgUp/PgDown to cycle through tabs, which makes the dedicated keys by the arrows really useful for single-handed tab cycling. Most other ways require a chord with both hands, so it’s just a lot slower.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      Ctrl-tab can be pressed with one hand, no?
      - giancarlostoro 4y ago
        And Ctrl+shift+tab with the same exact hand to go the opposite direction.
JoshTriplett 4y ago
I'm really hoping the Input Module system comes to the Framework 13.
wjdp 4y ago
Modular keyboard and QMK! It's a niche within a niche but would absolutely love an ortholinear option to the keyboard e.g. https://deskthority.net/wiki/Planck https://deskthority.net/wiki/Planck Though would like this on a smaller laptop, 14-ish inches seem to be the sweet spot.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Similarly, I’d like to see an HHKB layout option. It’s the layout I use most on desktop boards and it’s always been a bummer I can’t have it on laptops.
- kimburgess 4y ago
  This would be my perfect machine. Over the past few years I've gone deep down the keyboard rabbit hole. Given it's a device I spend a large proportion of my waking hours in contact with it's a good point to optimise (or at least experiment with) to be honest. I currently use an iPad and Atreus, but having this in clamshell form would be pure utopia.
- nrp 4y ago
  Jack Humbert (behind both QMK and OLKB) is actually working on an ortholinear keyboard module for the Framework Laptop 16! We had a mockup of it at the event.
  - wjdp 4y ago
    Oh this is exciting news! Is there a link for any more details on this? Would love to see the mockup.
    - nrp 4y ago
      We were hoping there would be press photos of it, but I haven't seen any show up yet. We'll share photos on our social channels later.
- baylessj 4y ago
  QMK support on a laptop's internal keyboard would be fantastic! I've gotten very used to my corne, and switching to using my laptop's keyboard on the rare occasions when I need to is a bit disorienting.
eviks 4y ago
It's a pity the keyboard design never seriously improves even for the niche laptops. Like, the space to the sides is useless here, but if you could split the keyboard and move that space to to the middle - well, know you've moved one step closer towards more ergonomic typing! Or better yet, you could move all those pinky keys there so that instead of moving your right pinky to hit backspace you'd just move your right index finger The huge space is also a waste etc., etc.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  You might finally get your wish. This laptop is the first laptop designed to allow the keyboard to be upgraded, with fully open specifications.
- pimterry 4y ago
  I don't know if the standard keyboard they ship with will change, but the flexible layout here does open a lot of space for keyboard experimentation and alternative options in future. The Framework CEO says there are already prototypes of an alternative ortholinear keyboard option (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168) and split keyboard like you describe is totally possible here too (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35283252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35283252)
  - eviks 4y ago
    Thanks for the links, wasn't aware of that, great to see that Input Module innovation come to fruition
- nrp 4y ago
  We see interesting use cases for the small modules on the left and right as well if you are not some who wants to slide the keyboard to the left and put a numpad on the right. We’re showing a prototype of an LED Matrix that can be used for low res information display, but other things like a row of extra buttons, a narrow LCD, a capacitive slider, and others are possible too. As a sibling comment noted, it is also possible for a module developer to create a full width keyboard with a different layout.
cowpig 4y ago
What's the battery life going to be for this one? My biggest issue by far with the Framework 13 is that the battery life is really bad (at least with linux). Less than 2 hours of normal use is not really workable. Will this one do better?
- Qiu_Zhanxuan 4y ago
  Agreed, the Macbook Pro 16" has a 100wh battery and i'm looking for something that has at least 3/4 of its autonomy, otherwise no point in investing into a >1500$ laptop.
- semireg 4y ago
  That was the first thing I did: Ctrl-F "battery" ... "Not Found"
  - eolas 4y ago
    In either this or another post, they mention that the capacity will be increased to 61Kw battery. Don't know how this will effect things with the new processors though.
- beepbooptheory 4y ago
  That seems very very short... With sway/nixos on a framework I'm getting at least twice that. Although I guess "normal use" is a pretty squishy thing.
- appleiigs 4y ago
  I don't know why it tapers at the bottom, just make them rectangular and put more battery in.
nrp 4y ago
I’m happy to answer questions that folks have on this. There was also an earlier HN thread on our full launch event where we announced 13th Gen Intel Core and AMD Ryzen 7040 Series versions of the Framework Laptop 13, along with a bunch of other stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660
- greggsy 4y ago
  An upgradeable GPU is a game changer for laptops. Have you settled on an existing standard like MXM, or a new one?
  - nrp 4y ago
    We've developed a new interface and released it publicly on GitHub: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
- 2020aj 4y ago
  Can you share the screen resolution? I own the 13 but the PPI on that screen makes fractional scaling necessary for me (which doesn't always behave well on Linux/Wayland). I'm wondering if I'll be able to comfortably use integer scaling with the 16. And if you can answer... are any screen replacements with different resolutions in play for the 13 chassis?
  - nrp 4y ago
    We'll be sharing full specifications on the Framework Laptop 16 later this Spring when we open pre-orders. What we have today is an early developer preview around the new module systems.
- CarVac 4y ago
  https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/392387047740014624/1088592739060428971/Screenshot_20230323_183508.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/392387047740014624/... Is this how the GPU module cooling will work? (a poor mouse drawing of my best guess based on the pictures)
polishdude20 4y ago
How compatible are parts from the previous framework laptop? Can the previous one be upgraded with parts from the new one? Seems like that's a big part of what makes a framework laptop no?
- myself248 4y ago
  That's the main question I've had as well, and it doesn't seem to be addressed anywhere. My assumption is that the I/O modules are compatible and nothing else.
- nrp 4y ago
  The Expansion Card system and Webcam Module are shared between the Framework Laptop 13 (which we also announced a number of upgrades for yesterday) and the new Framework Laptop 16. The other parts are new, which lets us enable higher performance, the Expansion Bay system, the Input Module system, 6 Expansion Cards, and the overall 16” form factor.
SkyMarshal 4y ago
> Since Expansion Bay modules can extend the laptop in both thickness and depth, we have immense design flexibility to handle generation over generation changes in mechanical, thermal, and electrical requirements for GPUs. How do expansion bay modules change the laptop’s thickness and depth?
- myself248 4y ago
  I presume, by sticking out the bottom. Thinkpads have had extended batteries like this for years, for example: https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_uk/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-thinkpad-x250-right-side-with-extended-battery_rnb7.1024.jpg https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_uk/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-th... That same laptop can take a slim battery, so you can choose your runtime vs form factor. Imagine doing the exact same thing but with small and large GPUs instead of batteries.
- vidarh 4y ago
  See [1] I too wish they'd answer this more clearly or show more pictures to give a proper impression, but it seems it covers the back and under-side, so if extending thickness presumably they'd cause the keyboard to tilt accordingly, and extending the depth would just mean more of it would hang out the back. This article seems to show of what I assume is the GPU expansion with a "larger butt" [2] [1] https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay [2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/shopping/framework-announces-laptop-16-and-promises-holy-grail-of-upgradable-graphics/ar-AA18ZEIQ https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/shopping/framework-annou...
  - nrp 4y ago
    This is correct. We’ll share more detailed product photography and dimensions this Spring when we open preorders.
- ncallaway 4y ago
  They don’t. They stick out from behind the laptop, so they aren’t constrained by the laptop’s dimensions
betimsl 4y ago
A missed opportunity to add a trackpad if you ask me and those bezels looks like they just landed from 1999.
- LightHugger 4y ago
  those bezels look like a laptop people actually want to use without fingerprints on their screen
karmakaze 4y ago
The 13.5" Framework display is 3:2. This appears to be 16:9. Any chance the display can be swapped for a 16:10? Otherwise it's a no go for me.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- starkparker 4y ago
  Confirmed by the founder in another thread that the 16" is 16:10.
MagicMoonlight 4y ago
If I'm ever in the market for a new laptop I'd definitely consider one of these.
unbalancedevh 4y ago
I loathe mouse buttons that are integrated into the touchpad. Is it possible to get a keyboard/touchpad for this with separate mechanical mouse buttons?
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
I'm probably going to need a new laptop this year. My needs are simple: large screen, numpad and enough raw compute power to be usable for the primary task my computers face: compiling a large-ish native C++ application. This machine looks like an excellent candidate and I love the modular concept ... ... however, every time I've put my faith in "this technology is modular and you will be able to extend/upgrade it way into the future", I've been disappointed. The worst offenders are CPU manufacturers who assure us that "Socket N" will be their new CPU pin format for, well, a good long time, and then two years later we move to "Socket N+1". The same thing for RAM. My experience that expecting an upgrade path via physical interface re-use with new components buys you at most 3 years, sometimes only 2. Framework appear to building the actual components into their self-design modules, so that they control the physical interfaces. This seems like a step up but if the company remains small then the chance of not being able to upgrade again in a few years because they're either out of business, or are not packaging the components you want, seem fairly high. The fact that the designs are going to be open sourced is great, but I don't see that as a strong hedge against this problem.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Most of the "modularity" of Framework seems to be USB dongles built-in. CPU upgradability was never a real selling point except for ONE use case - when. new socket came out, buy the cheapest reasonable CPU early on, and then just when it was about to cease manufacturing, buy the best you could get; would give you a year or two extra. RAM and disk upgrades USED to be very important; but I haven't really "felt" the need anymore.
  - zerocrates 4y ago
    It's not modularity, but upgradability of the CPU (through a total replacement of the motherboard) is part of the Framework pitch: keeping the form factor the same so you can do drop-in replacements. So far they have boards for Intel's 11th, 12th, and now 13th generations, and an AMD option. So they're doing pretty good on that front.
    - 4y ago
synergy20 4y ago
I don't do gaming but I do want to buy a reasonably priced Machine Learning training high-end box somewhere, better with 4090 card installed.
ngneer 4y ago
The 13 weighs 1.3kg, how much does the 16 weigh?
xenon7 4y ago
I don't see this happening any time soon, but it would be really nice to see an 11.6 inch Framework intended for the education market. The new N series "Intel Processor" (aka Celeron/Pentium) CPUs are actually quite powerful considering they have a 6 watt TDP. The only problem would be the price.
mymythisisthis 4y ago
I like having 2 drives. This seems to only have a slot for one drive? It doesn't take too long until you end up with TBs of stuff.
- BadBadJellyBean 4y ago
  You can put storage in one or more of the 4 expansion slots on the sides.
  - joombaga 4y ago
    There are 6 slots on the 16.
    - mymythisisthis 4y ago
      What drives are the slots compatible with?
      - joombaga 4y ago
        They sell their own 1 TB and 250 GB expansion cards. I've been using the 1 TB as my Pop!_OS system drive.
Zuiii 4y ago
Why do companies insist on messing with laptop keyboard layouts? Where's the menu key? Where are the Home, PgDn, PgUp, and End keys? I've used cheap sub 300-dollar laptops with keyboards more complete than this. The silver lining here is that Framework keyboards are replaceable in theory. I'll wait until a proper keyboard gets released.
- coldpie 4y ago
  > Where's the menu key? Seems gone. I can't say I've personally ever used it, so that's probably why it's one of the first keys to go, but I know that doesn't help you. > Where are the Home, PgDn, PgUp, and End keys? They're available via Fn+Arrow Cluster.
  - Zuiii 4y ago
    > Seems gone. I can't say I've personally ever used it I rely on it heavily and I'm sure many others do to. I wish framework included the key in their study as well. Ether way, no menu key == no buy from me.
    - celu 4y ago
      You might be a rarity here. I've never heard of anyone using the menu key, and most don't even know what it is. I'm honestly kind of curious how you use it. In my experience, almost anything on the menu it opens has a common shortcut
      - Zuiii 4y ago
        > You might be a rarity here. And I might not be, hence my call for actual metrics.
- TapamN 4y ago
  If someone from Framework is reading this, page up and page down are among my most used keys. Having to use an extra hand for something so common is crazy. I absolutely will not buy a laptop or standalone keyboard without dedicated page up and page down keys. Ideally, page up and down will be next to the arrow keys (look at a Thinkpad keyboard), but off to the side is still better than not existing.
olah_1 4y ago
Isn’t the idea of a modular computer defeated if only one company has a monopoly on the modules that you can buy?
ChrisArchitect 4y ago
Aside: The international urls for this site are annoying for sharing. I understand it of course but like this one shared as /fr/ when there's already been other posts this week about same thing but on other urls main url should be canonical https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16 https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16 which redirects to local urls (which of course also are likely all in english for the blog post) and was shared earlier not to mention the main product page shared days ago
anotheryou 4y ago
I want a stand-alone qmk ultra flat chicklet keyboard! Does anyone know what the protocol they use is? I'd assume for the keyboard it might be usb. So maybe all I'd need is to solder a flex-adapter to a usb plug and 3D print a case.
- anotheryou 4y ago
  Looks to be standard USB 2.0, just a special connector and a few extra pins I'd probably don't need. https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/InputModules https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/InputModules
snihalani 4y ago
English link: https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16 https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16
eins1234 4y ago
Really happy for anyone looking for a larger high-performance laptop! But personally, I was really hoping for a 13-inch convertible with touch and pen input from these guys... Maybe next year?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

682 points by wdavidw 4y ago

Playing with configurator what surprise me is that a Windows 11 Pro licence cost 259 Euro. Micro$oft still make a lot of money with windonws =)

reisse 4y ago
I wonder, do they sell retail licence or re-sell OEM licence at retail price? Anyway, I'm not sure if anyone really buys Windows at retail prices. Enterprise (subscription) and OEM costs are much lower, and for personal use you can buy OEM keys off eBay or AliExpress for a few bucks.
- dijit 4y ago
  License costs are weird. The opaqueness of Windows licensing for "pro" devices makes us assume that there are heavy discounts, which massively depends on the manufacturer- framework could not be at a size that gives them preferential pricing (even if we assume that licensing is cheaper for other companies). I can say that it is more ordinary for end users to get discounts rather than OEMs, unless there is a lot of negotiation (including bundling crapware, as we well know) in the tech industry when it comes to bulk licensing.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- vbezhenar 4y ago
  > for personal use you can buy OEM keys off eBay or AliExpress for a few bucks. Is it legal? If it's not, isn't it easier to just use crack? E.g. pirate KMS server.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Gray market
  - GuB-42 4y ago
    It is not legal, but the advantage is that you don't have to deal with shady software like that pirate KMS server. Even though it is a breach of contract because it is not how these licences are supposed to be used, it is still recognized as genuine by Microsoft, so you get all the updates, etc... You may get your license revoked it the seller get caught and as a result, you may need to get a new one. As an individual, you are extremely unlikely to get into more trouble (same thing as with cracked software), but I wouldn't use these licenses as a business.
    - messe 4y ago
      I was under the impression that reselling keys can be legal in the EU (at least in some circumstances)?
      - nix23 4y ago
        [dead]
    - richthegeek 4y ago
      If the breach of contract is by the seller, then how does that result in illegality on the part of the buyer?
      - GuB-42 4y ago
        I don't think it is illegal on the part of the buyer, who would be a victim in this situation. But just like buying counterfeit goods, it is not clear to me, I mean if you buy your key from AliExpress, isn't it like importing counterfeits from China? That's something one should ask a lawyer. Anyways, these keys can be revoked any moment (and it has happened to me, with an Office key). If I had a business, I would avoid them for that reason alone.
      - 4y ago
- vetinari 4y ago
  Interesting bit, that many people miss: The enteprise windows license is not "standalone", you cannot use it with any device. You may use it only with device, that came with valid OEM or retail license.
RGamma 4y ago
I bought mine for like 4 bucks. Digital license linked to my account :>
- drapado 4y ago
  Care to explain how?
  - RGamma 4y ago
    Got it from an independent license vendor (https://www.license4you.de/windows-11-pro-neu?number=ID-100507 https://www.license4you.de/windows-11-pro-neu?number=ID-1005..., but there's several). I have no idea how they get the keys (probably OEM) and whether this is actually kosher (and I don't wanna know) but I did this with Win 10 some years ago as well and it has worked out thus far. Just pay with e.g. PP and they'll send you the key via e-mail.
  - williamvds 4y ago
    Grey market key resellers, apparently using volume licensing. It's a roll of the dice whether they'll stay valid, possibly because the same key is resold repeatedly, or Microsoft blacklists them.
pbhjpbhj 4y ago
So if I buy a computer with Win 11 then I can claim €259 back as long as I wrote it and install Linux? Isn't that how things worked before with Windows-tax automatically applied to all retail computers in major chain stores? That clearly won't work, as one could get free computers ... but what is the situation in getting reimbursements of Windows-tax?
- dagw 4y ago
  So if I buy a computer with Win 11 then I can claim €259 back Anybody else remember Windows Refund Day? Some OEMs actually did offer a refund of around $30-50, which was the cost of an OEM license at the time. Although many court cases around the world have since then ruled that you don't have a right to claim a refund for unused OEM licenses.
  - nicolaslem 4y ago
    Yes, I got my Windows license refunded years ago. AFAIK it was not simply getting a refund for something unused, but rather the fact that the hardware and the software were two distinct products that were bundled together without the consumer having a say.
- nrp 4y ago
  We have the Framework Laptop DIY Edition that ships without an OS or OS license specifically to make sure folks don’t have to do this and can bring the OS that they want.
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>what surprise me is that a Windows 11 Pro licence cost 259 Euro. Micro$oft still make a lot of money with windonws =) Not really. Windows 11 Pro retail is $199 today which might sound steep but in comparison Windows XP Pro retail was $299 in 2001 which adjusted for inflation would be $500 today. Ouch! Windows 95 retailed at a whopping $205 in '95 or ~$400 in today's money, while a retail Win 11 Home is $139 now. So Windows has actually gotten massively cheaper, which is weird considering that OS complexity, update frequency has increased and SW dev salaries and expenses have gone up since then.
- flatiron 4y ago
  They make money on OS ads now to subsidize the cost
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    That and no more customer support to pay for. Plus, the consumer prices are probably subsidized by the massive volumes in OEM licenses and O365 subscriptions.
    - okasaki 4y ago
      Microsoft never had customer support. If you had a problem you either called your grandson or took it to the local computer repair shop. Maybe you mean QA testers.
- Otek 4y ago
  But Microsoft is making now money from tracking and they didn’t do that in ‘95
vhodges 4y ago
You want to look at the DIY options (it's not terribly hard to install the RAM and storage), for no Windows tax.

hoppyhoppy2 4y ago

Related discussion from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660

5mv2 4y ago
This thread is a goldmine! 390 comments, and many from current users. Thank you for sharing.
- echelon 4y ago
  One of my least favorite things about the Framework 13 was the low midrange feel of the system. The customization experience is top notch, but the computing itself was underwhelming. This new entry should fix that problem. I'll probably pick one up.

cupofjoakim 4y ago

GPU modularity makes the framework even more interesting for small form factor pc projects. I might pick it up for my re-imagining of the ibm ps/2 laptop.

nrp 4y ago
We would love to see that project! As before, we’re making the key modules possible to get good use of outside of the laptop.

komadori 4y ago

I hope it's possible to fit a pointing stick (TrackPoint) keyboard within that 3.7mm, and that someone first- or third-party makes one. I'm keen to try replacing my ThinkPad with a Framework as soon as that's available, but not before.

dgrabla 4y ago
Years using the trackpoint gave me carpal tunnel. Try not to use it exclusively.
- Arch-TK 4y ago
  How many years exactly? I am at almost 9 years of use and I have not felt the slightest hint of any problem (for reference I have in the past suffered from carpal tunnel related issues so I know what it feels like).
  - jojobas 4y ago
    25 years, no issues. Maybe with sensitivity way down you do start pressing too much on it.
    - reirob 4y ago
      Same here
- jeff_carr 4y ago
  I've been using a nipplemouse for at least 20 years. Exclusively. I hate trackpads. I always disable mine. I always use tables that my elbows rest on the table.
  - Epa095 4y ago
    How do you scroll? You reach for the pgdown?
    - 4y ago

WesolyKubeczek 4y ago

Alas, it's got a 16:9 screen with its infamous ugly chin :-( I'd like a chinless 16:10 or 3:2 goodness (or 4:3), even if it was at a hefty markup. UPD: it's a 16:10 display, but the chin is still ugly.

markstos 4y ago
The chin lefts the screen a bit for better ergonomics.
- WesolyKubeczek 4y ago
  I thought you could have inexpensive laptop stands that also raise the keyboard a bit to the same effect. Try one, they are amazing. And they improve the airflow, too.
  - CarVac 4y ago
    For proper ergonomics you want the keyboard at elbow level and the top of the screen at eye level.
  - markstos 4y ago
    I use a laptop stand at my desk, but a laptop chin helps to not bend the neck so much when the laptop is on a… lap.
notRobot 4y ago
You're wrong. It's a 16:10 screen. CEO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280523 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280523
- Aachen 4y ago
  Ugh. After over a decade of work, everything was finally adapted to or made for 16:9, now they're going after hipster ratios? Not a deal breaker but a bummer. Interesting that phones are going the other way, so now we can enjoy letterboxes on both platforms and not be able to reach the notification drawer. What was so wrong with 16:9 that we needed another competing standard that's just slightly off...

cue_the_strings 4y ago

If only they would make a laptop with an AMD processor, no discrete graphics + someone makes a decent keyboard with a trackpoint for it, I'd immediately buy 2, I don't care about the price. It's also likely that I'd be able to convince my employer to switch from thinkpads to this. Btw, it's ironic that the much cheaper T series Thinkpads work much better with Linux and are much more reliable than the X1 series. Intel processors of this generation are just not energy effiecient and run too hot.

diffeomorphism 4y ago
https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ > now available with AMD Ryzen 7040 Still only preorder, but you can buy it with AMD now.
- cue_the_strings 4y ago
  WOW! I think I'm going to pre-order one, trackpoint be damned! My wife is a bit suspicious of these laptops, let's see how this one fares. I just need to check if it'll work with my Thinkpad Thunderbolt 3 dock (or something similar, I can buy another dock) to output to 2x 4K (actually 3840x2560, so bigger than 4K) monitors. I can currently both power my Thinkpad, and connect all the peripherals, with 1 USB-C cable. It's not something I'm willing to forgo.
  - Terretta 4y ago
    It does work with 2 x 4K TB3 docks, and you only need a single cable with USB-C charging and monitors you can daisy chain.
    - cue_the_strings 4y ago
      I know that the Intel one does, I'm just looking for definite confirmation that the AMD one does. I'll shoot them an e-mail.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Leimi 4y ago

This is starting to be a really interesting choice compared to sticking to thinkpads. The dream would be to have 6 expansion cards in the laptop 13. 4 really is a bummer for a work laptop, it's definitely not enough for me… And while you can easily carry other expansion cards and switch at will, it's kinda like carrying adapters, you easily forget them.

rvense 4y ago
I wish there was a single module with two USB-A ports, but I don't think they're wide enough.
- bleep_bloop 4y ago
  That would be an extremely niche use case. Can't imagine any scenario needing more than 2-3 x USB A ports outdoors. In any case it would make much more sense to use a dock.
  - speed_spread 4y ago
    Niche? One for the keyboard, one for the mouse. That's a normal computer, if you believe wires are better than Bluetooth.
    - justeleblanc 4y ago
      We're talking about a laptop. What's the point of a laptop if you're just going to make it into an underpowered desktop? And it's not like mouses and keyboards need a 4Gbps connection to the host. Plug them into a tiny hub. You're already lugging a keyboard and mouse around, why not a hub too?
      - vidarh 4y ago
        My laptop is "an underpowered desktop" 90% of the time, but it saves me from having a second machine the remaining part of the time. But I agree regarding ports - at home my mouse and keyboard are plugged into a cheap KVM switch, so I still need only one USB port on the laptop; If I needed to lug them with me I'd certainly just bring a hub too.

nix23 4y ago

[dead]

Aachen 4y ago

"Finally!", I wanted to say, but it's not actually out yet. No prices known. No specs given. I've signed up for the newsletter. My personal laptop is getting pretty old now. Really hoping it's not going to be a Fairphone price–performance+usability ratio, but I'm most definitely going to consider this as my first option!

nrp 4y ago
Yes, for today, we’re showing an early developer preview to let folks get started on Expansion Bay and especially Input Module development. We’ll share more information on the laptop this spring and throughout the year.

column 4y ago

why did they butcher the Entry key instead of making the tab key narrower?

lexicality 4y ago
What do you mean?
Macha 4y ago
The laptop pictured has a US keyboard layout, that's just how the US keyboard layout is. They also have an ISO/most-of-world keyboard layout (with options for qwerty/qwertz/azerty labelling, at least on last gen), as seen on the laptop ad in the footer (assuming the link doesn't get changed from the french site after I post that comment, if it does, just go look up the order form on an EU site)
- chrismorgan 4y ago
  > ISO/most-of-world I’m not certain, but I’m under the impression that the ANSI layout is more common than ISO: that, potentially simplifying a tad, ISO is used in Europe, JIS in Japan, and ANSI everywhere else. (I have experience in Australia, New Zealand, India and the United States, and they all use ANSI.)
  - joseda-hg 4y ago
    ISO is also used in South America, so it's maybe a "European language that's not english" thing All the countries you mentioned are English Speaking (Or have a really significant English speaking population), maybe that's why they all use ANSI
- nrp 4y ago
  That is correct, we are making both ANSI and ISO Keyboard Modules for the Framework Laptop 16.
alias_neo 4y ago
I think that's US layout. I assume they'll have a proper Enter key on the ISO layouts.

unwind 4y ago

Framework have a very ... localization-interested website, that can be confusing some times in my opinion. The link here seems to go to the French (hence the /fr/fr/ in the URI) version of the blog post, but I still got to see it in English. Confusing. Here [1] is the non-localized version. [1]: https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16 https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16

bootloop 4y ago
I guess its because they didn't translate the article into french. What I also find confusing is that when you change the language, the controls are still in the original language. I can guess what button is for changing the language but still not a great design.
- tracker1 4y ago
  Yeah... considering there are good browser APIs and most server platforms support language matching, that they could relatively easily deliver language content without specific language endpoints. Not that it's easy, just completely doable if it's a significant concern.
  - jiehong 4y ago
    Automatic language matching is a real pain actually. - sometimes the article / product is only available in 1 language and the redirection leads nowhere (I’ve seen it many times) - the language of my phone/computer does not match the one where I live, and even maybe not the language I used to search for that thing in the first place. So yeah, I never like it, especially when you live near the border of multiple countries and websites want to select the language based on location…. It would be nice if language selection was standardised and browsers would just offer a button and a default choice that websites would follow: no need to hunt for the language box on websites.
    - tracker1 4y ago
      I wish language selection in OS and Browser were easier to access... but your browser does send a language header with your request, which generally matches your browser. Location based is and can be a pain. I live in a border state and often get spanish versions of sites... I also follow a couple prominent youtubers who post english and foreign language content, so sometimes get results in those languages, that I don't read. That said, using the default for the browser, and allowing override isn't a bad thing... I usually look for something that looks like a flag in the upper right, for language selection. And the few times I've written multi-language sites/apps that's the UX I prefer to use. I would default to browser/header, I would respond to the change event, and if the user selects a preference, set a cookie and use that first. Again, I do wish it were easier to switch for the browser itself. 1. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Accept-Language https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Ac... 2. https://github.com/i18next/i18next-browser-languageDetector/blob/master/src/browserLookups/navigator.js https://github.com/i18next/i18next-browser-languageDetector/... 3. https://github.com/i18next/i18next-browser-languageDetector https://github.com/i18next/i18next-browser-languageDetector 4. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/languagechange_event https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/lang...

delta_p_delta_x 4y ago

At a notebook-specific forum I frequent[1], a user has noticed that the Framework 16 modular discrete graphics solution uses a connector first used by Dell in its Precision 7530 and 7730 workstation notebooks, released in 2018. The connector is called 'Dell Graphics Form Factor' (DGFF), and is the array of gold LGA pads on the motherboard seen in the bottom-right screenshot in a photo, at the above link. Dell has been using DGFF ever since, in all Precision 7XXX notebooks and the Alienware Area-51m, to facilitate modular GPUs. However, Dell changes its notebook layout every two years, so these GPUs are not upgradeable after two generations (so a 7530 could be upgraded to a GPU from a 7540, but not a GPU from a 7550, released in 2020). It's going to be interesting how Framework adapts the connector for its own use. The Dell cards are fairly high-powered; in the most recent 7770 (17" workstation), the RTX 3080 Ti and Quadro RTX A5000 cards may draw up to 130 W. Some examples of previous and current DGFF discrete cards (all by Dell, for Dell notebooks) are here[2][3][4][5]. Notice the difference to the previous mobile GPU connection standard, MXM 3[6], which was used by Dell in its Precisions until 2018, when it changed to DGFF, HP in its ZBooks until about 2020 when it changed to a soldered solution. Other notebook ODMs like Clevo and Tongfang still use MXM cards in their desktop replacement notebooks. I'm not sure if Clevo still sells these monsters; they had a 780 W power brick, itself heavier than many slimmer notebooks. [1]: https://notebooktalk.net/topic/873-precision-7680-precision-7780-pre-release-discussion-raptor-lake-2023/?do=findComment&comment=29221&_rid=105 https://notebooktalk.net/topic/873-precision-7680-precision-... [2]: https://imgur.com/aMal40L https://imgur.com/aMal40L : Quadro P3200 (Pascal), Quadro RTX 3000, Quadro RTX 5000 (latter two Turing) [3]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/IMG_20190109_162933.jpg https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/Notebooks/News/_nc3/... : GTX 1080? in Dell Alienware Area-51m [4]: https://dl.dell.com/content/guides/public/Html/precision_7560_sm/images/GUID-E73B16BE-6A77-4FD7-93A8-58F15884F77F-low.jpg https://dl.dell.com/content/guides/public/Html/precision_756... : new form factor for 7X50 and 7X60 generations [5]: https://dl.dell.com/content/guides/public/Html/precision_7670_sm/images/GUID-E4A43D93-E55E-4A75-A9E3-410D91DD4B68-low.jpg https://dl.dell.com/content/guides/public/Html/precision_767... : newer still form factor for 7X70 and now 7X80 generation [6]: https://i.imgur.com/Exp6w0g.png https://i.imgur.com/Exp6w0g.png : MXM GPUs

vidarh 4y ago
If I could get a hefty one to use at home, and be able to do without on the rare occasions I take my laptop out of the house, it'd be a strong incentive to get one of these. I've been pondering going back to using a desktop at home since my laptop is docked most of the time and it'd be nice to have a GPU that's unreasonably power-hungry for a laptop, but I really like not having to have two separate machines.

virtualritz 4y ago

I can't seem to find any info on display resolution on their website. Am I blind?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
nrp 4y ago
What we shared today is an early developer preview of the new module systems. We’ll be sharing full product specifications when we open pre-orders this Spring.
wanda 4y ago
16:10 was mentioned in a comment somewhere, no mention of a specific resolution. Framework 13 has a resolution of 2256x1504 (3:2)[0] [0]: https://frame.work/gb/en/laptop-comparison https://frame.work/gb/en/laptop-comparison

Snuupy 4y ago

for the 16": - I would love an option to have upwards firing speakers where flex/numpad space goes instead (one on each side). - please improve the bass in the speakers. according to notebookcheck's review, framework speakers have poor/near 0 bass output. - please offer either a 1080p or 4k screen option on the 16". 1440p-ish screens with DPI scaling hackery is no fun and often leads to blurry UIs.

hdhrufjdi 4y ago
It's a software problem of the software you are using, and not a hardware problem.
- tracker1 4y ago
  Of course... that said, MANY software are dated and aren't or won't be implementing scaling any time soon. For those of us using Linux, it's even worse. This doesn't mean that the hardware shouldn't consider the existing software ecosystem. A 4k display with 2x scaling is often a good option for laptops. My vision at computer distance isn't great in general, usually on a 32" 1440p display for desktop use. I generally can barely handle the micro size of higher res on laptops.
kuschku 4y ago
> DPI scaling hackery Under X11 with KDE, or under Windows, that's no problem whatsoever. 144dpi isn't any more hacky than 96dpi or 192dpi. It's only macOS, Gnome and Wayland that require 1x or 2x scaling (which is absolutely mind-bogglingly ridiculous, and anyone that contributed to that or encouraged that should be banned from ever touching UI code again).
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Fractional scaling on Linux is still hit or miss in my experience. I played with several permutations of Wayland/X11/GNOME (with fractional enabled)/KDE and none got it 100% right, and even under the setup that got closest some programs acted confused. It’s certainly not as painless as fractional scaling on Windows, where only truly ancient/esoteric programs pose issues typically.

jalapenos 4y ago

I'm thinking of my next laptop. I only use it for work (programmer) plus maybe play movies. I have no interest in games. I don't like Windows, and am so-so about Mac, so that probably leaves Ubuntu, which I already use outside of my day job. Are these the kinds of laptops I should buy? Or are there other recommendations?

acidburnNSA 4y ago
These are probably fine. I went with a System76 Linux laptop in 2020 and it's doing awesomely still. Love it.
kapperchino 4y ago
I would say yes as these are extremely repairable and upgradable.

dakial1 4y ago

I wonder if there is a market for a framework gaming laptop. Really hope there is. Also, on another note, I've read this engadget article about how other companies tried to build an upgradeable laptop and failed but I see Framework as a different kind of beast for one simple reason. This is their only value proposition, they don't have an alternative. In a very "Innovator's Dilemma" kind of. way, Dell and other big manufacturers have their main lines with higher margins and/or volume that really drives their attention and money, so any new innovation that takes more than 1 to 3 years to mature gets cut pretty fast. For Framework is kind a kind of "burn the ships" moment, they don't have anything else to turn to, so they have to keep pushing. I really hope they shine (and don't get acquired)!

afavour 4y ago
I’d be surprised if there was a market for a Framework laptop dedicated to gaming but I am really intrigued by a Framework laptop that can game. I use my laptop for my work software engineering but since the pandemic have gotten back into gaming a little. I’m on an old Xbox and it’s showing its age but I don’t game enough to justify buying a whole gaming PC. If I can plug a GPU into my work machine and play some games? Now that’s compelling. The fact that it wouldn’t have all the cringey “gamer” decorations you see on the average gaming laptop would be a bonus too. (all that said a Steam Deck is probably still the more compelling purchase for me in that regard, I’ve been eyeing one for a while)
- _fat_santa 4y ago
  > Framework laptop dedicated to gaming Isn't one of the advantages of Framework that you can swap out parts, so it would be much easier for them (theoretically) to build a gaming version of the laptop.
- zahrc 4y ago
  Definitely go with the Steam Deck. It’s literally a portable pc which you can turn adhoc into a workstation, plug into a TV for sofa gaming and it’s really really bang for buck. The performance is amazing, the community caring and it runs on Linux.
- 4y ago

nanna 4y ago

Anyone have experience running Debian or Guix System on a Framework laptop?

brandhout 4y ago
Both work fine. https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91 https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91
vhodges 4y ago
fwiw, I am running NixOS and it seems to work quite nicely.

codedokode 4y ago

Finally, a proper screen size instead of toy-level 13 inches. You cannot code on a 13-inch display (unless you have eagle's eyes and use tiny font) and it feels like the only use for 13-inch laptop is to watch videos and photos on social network sites while sitting in a cafe which makes it a toy, not a real laptop for work (but Apple seems to be selling such toy laptops successfully). By the way the current trend is to install wide, but low height screens. What's the use of such screens? For coding, reading articles or working with documents height is more important than width, but manufacturers lower the height and extend the width. Regarding keyboard layout, it is designed poorly: it has small Up/Down keys (easy to hit the wrong key) and it doesn't have Page Up/Down and End/Home keys which are necessary for coding or working with documents (but it has useless CapsLock key). What is the intended use of the keyboard? To post short messages on social network sites. They seem to copy the layout from toy laptops without much thinking about the target audience. They claim that "Whether you’re a gamer, developer, heavy Linux user, creator, or have other performance-demanding work, the Framework Laptop 16 is built to be customized to your needs.". No, your keyboard doesn't match the needs of those audiences (except for gamers and vi users who can program even on a calculator). Also, many non-Latin based languages have more that 26 letters, but the keyboard doesn't offer additional keys for those letters, and two additional keys to switch to Latin and non-Latin layout. Nobody seems to care about this. Not Apple, not Framework, nor ordinary laptop vendors do not want to adapt keyboards to non-Latin languages and think that 26 keys should be enough for everyone.

hkt 4y ago
> You cannot code on a 13-inch display When I was young and poor, I used to code on an Asus EeePC with a 9" screen and half sized keyboard. It wasn't ideal but actually, it was fine.
- echelon 4y ago
  I put Linux on a Sony Vaio P and did homework and Python coding on it.
afavour 4y ago
> You cannot code on a 13-inch display That’s news to me, I’ve been doing it for years.

panick21_ 4y ago

One of my favorite things for keyboards is the ThinkPad feature where the Page Up and Page Down is above the Left and Right key. I don't understand why others don't do this, its so practical. Specially in cases like this, there is just an empty space there. Why not put 2 more keys? ThinkPad also makes them full sized keys, that would be even better. But just having empty space? Why?

tracker1 4y ago
Hadn't really thought about it... kind of gotten used to Fn+up/down on most laptops. Though I rarely use a laptop except while traveling and that's usually on vacation, so limited use. At home, laptop for work is docked, and my personal doesn't get used much.
savef 4y ago
Ha, that's an interesting take. My Dell work laptop has these (not full-sized) and I don't like them at all. There's nothing fun about trying to use the arrows and accidentally slipping onto a key that isn't usually there, which might scroll my cursor/window by a huge amount. My fingers expect no space there, so it makes the whole area less distinct to touch to have the spaces filled.
- ochoseis 4y ago
  On my OS you can use CTRL+PgUp/PgDown to cycle through tabs, which makes the dedicated keys by the arrows really useful for single-handed tab cycling. Most other ways require a chord with both hands, so it’s just a lot slower.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    Ctrl-tab can be pressed with one hand, no?
    - giancarlostoro 4y ago
      And Ctrl+shift+tab with the same exact hand to go the opposite direction.

JoshTriplett 4y ago

I'm really hoping the Input Module system comes to the Framework 13.

wjdp 4y ago

Modular keyboard and QMK! It's a niche within a niche but would absolutely love an ortholinear option to the keyboard e.g. https://deskthority.net/wiki/Planck https://deskthority.net/wiki/Planck Though would like this on a smaller laptop, 14-ish inches seem to be the sweet spot.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
Similarly, I’d like to see an HHKB layout option. It’s the layout I use most on desktop boards and it’s always been a bummer I can’t have it on laptops.
kimburgess 4y ago
This would be my perfect machine. Over the past few years I've gone deep down the keyboard rabbit hole. Given it's a device I spend a large proportion of my waking hours in contact with it's a good point to optimise (or at least experiment with) to be honest. I currently use an iPad and Atreus, but having this in clamshell form would be pure utopia.
nrp 4y ago
Jack Humbert (behind both QMK and OLKB) is actually working on an ortholinear keyboard module for the Framework Laptop 16! We had a mockup of it at the event.
- wjdp 4y ago
  Oh this is exciting news! Is there a link for any more details on this? Would love to see the mockup.
  - nrp 4y ago
    We were hoping there would be press photos of it, but I haven't seen any show up yet. We'll share photos on our social channels later.
baylessj 4y ago
QMK support on a laptop's internal keyboard would be fantastic! I've gotten very used to my corne, and switching to using my laptop's keyboard on the rare occasions when I need to is a bit disorienting.

eviks 4y ago

It's a pity the keyboard design never seriously improves even for the niche laptops. Like, the space to the sides is useless here, but if you could split the keyboard and move that space to to the middle - well, know you've moved one step closer towards more ergonomic typing! Or better yet, you could move all those pinky keys there so that instead of moving your right pinky to hit backspace you'd just move your right index finger The huge space is also a waste etc., etc.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
You might finally get your wish. This laptop is the first laptop designed to allow the keyboard to be upgraded, with fully open specifications.
pimterry 4y ago
I don't know if the standard keyboard they ship with will change, but the flexible layout here does open a lot of space for keyboard experimentation and alternative options in future. The Framework CEO says there are already prototypes of an alternative ortholinear keyboard option (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35280168) and split keyboard like you describe is totally possible here too (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35283252 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35283252)
- eviks 4y ago
  Thanks for the links, wasn't aware of that, great to see that Input Module innovation come to fruition
nrp 4y ago
We see interesting use cases for the small modules on the left and right as well if you are not some who wants to slide the keyboard to the left and put a numpad on the right. We’re showing a prototype of an LED Matrix that can be used for low res information display, but other things like a row of extra buttons, a narrow LCD, a capacitive slider, and others are possible too. As a sibling comment noted, it is also possible for a module developer to create a full width keyboard with a different layout.

cowpig 4y ago

What's the battery life going to be for this one? My biggest issue by far with the Framework 13 is that the battery life is really bad (at least with linux). Less than 2 hours of normal use is not really workable. Will this one do better?

Qiu_Zhanxuan 4y ago
Agreed, the Macbook Pro 16" has a 100wh battery and i'm looking for something that has at least 3/4 of its autonomy, otherwise no point in investing into a >1500$ laptop.
semireg 4y ago
That was the first thing I did: Ctrl-F "battery" ... "Not Found"
- eolas 4y ago
  In either this or another post, they mention that the capacity will be increased to 61Kw battery. Don't know how this will effect things with the new processors though.
beepbooptheory 4y ago
That seems very very short... With sway/nixos on a framework I'm getting at least twice that. Although I guess "normal use" is a pretty squishy thing.
appleiigs 4y ago
I don't know why it tapers at the bottom, just make them rectangular and put more battery in.

nrp 4y ago

I’m happy to answer questions that folks have on this. There was also an earlier HN thread on our full launch event where we announced 13th Gen Intel Core and AMD Ryzen 7040 Series versions of the Framework Laptop 13, along with a bunch of other stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660

greggsy 4y ago
An upgradeable GPU is a game changer for laptops. Have you settled on an existing standard like MXM, or a new one?
- nrp 4y ago
  We've developed a new interface and released it publicly on GitHub: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay
2020aj 4y ago
Can you share the screen resolution? I own the 13 but the PPI on that screen makes fractional scaling necessary for me (which doesn't always behave well on Linux/Wayland). I'm wondering if I'll be able to comfortably use integer scaling with the 16. And if you can answer... are any screen replacements with different resolutions in play for the 13 chassis?
- nrp 4y ago
  We'll be sharing full specifications on the Framework Laptop 16 later this Spring when we open pre-orders. What we have today is an early developer preview around the new module systems.
CarVac 4y ago
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/392387047740014624/1088592739060428971/Screenshot_20230323_183508.png https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/392387047740014624/... Is this how the GPU module cooling will work? (a poor mouse drawing of my best guess based on the pictures)

polishdude20 4y ago

How compatible are parts from the previous framework laptop? Can the previous one be upgraded with parts from the new one? Seems like that's a big part of what makes a framework laptop no?

myself248 4y ago
That's the main question I've had as well, and it doesn't seem to be addressed anywhere. My assumption is that the I/O modules are compatible and nothing else.
nrp 4y ago
The Expansion Card system and Webcam Module are shared between the Framework Laptop 13 (which we also announced a number of upgrades for yesterday) and the new Framework Laptop 16. The other parts are new, which lets us enable higher performance, the Expansion Bay system, the Input Module system, 6 Expansion Cards, and the overall 16” form factor.

SkyMarshal 4y ago

> Since Expansion Bay modules can extend the laptop in both thickness and depth, we have immense design flexibility to handle generation over generation changes in mechanical, thermal, and electrical requirements for GPUs. How do expansion bay modules change the laptop’s thickness and depth?

myself248 4y ago
I presume, by sticking out the bottom. Thinkpads have had extended batteries like this for years, for example: https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_uk/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-thinkpad-x250-right-side-with-extended-battery_rnb7.1024.jpg https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_uk/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-th... That same laptop can take a slim battery, so you can choose your runtime vs form factor. Imagine doing the exact same thing but with small and large GPUs instead of batteries.
vidarh 4y ago
See [1] I too wish they'd answer this more clearly or show more pictures to give a proper impression, but it seems it covers the back and under-side, so if extending thickness presumably they'd cause the keyboard to tilt accordingly, and extending the depth would just mean more of it would hang out the back. This article seems to show of what I assume is the GPU expansion with a "larger butt" [2] [1] https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/ExpansionBay [2] https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/shopping/framework-announces-laptop-16-and-promises-holy-grail-of-upgradable-graphics/ar-AA18ZEIQ https://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/shopping/framework-annou...
- nrp 4y ago
  This is correct. We’ll share more detailed product photography and dimensions this Spring when we open preorders.
ncallaway 4y ago
They don’t. They stick out from behind the laptop, so they aren’t constrained by the laptop’s dimensions

betimsl 4y ago

A missed opportunity to add a trackpad if you ask me and those bezels looks like they just landed from 1999.

LightHugger 4y ago
those bezels look like a laptop people actually want to use without fingerprints on their screen

karmakaze 4y ago

The 13.5" Framework display is 3:2. This appears to be 16:9. Any chance the display can be swapped for a 16:10? Otherwise it's a no go for me.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
starkparker 4y ago
Confirmed by the founder in another thread that the 16" is 16:10.

MagicMoonlight 4y ago

If I'm ever in the market for a new laptop I'd definitely consider one of these.

unbalancedevh 4y ago

I loathe mouse buttons that are integrated into the touchpad. Is it possible to get a keyboard/touchpad for this with separate mechanical mouse buttons?

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

I'm probably going to need a new laptop this year. My needs are simple: large screen, numpad and enough raw compute power to be usable for the primary task my computers face: compiling a large-ish native C++ application. This machine looks like an excellent candidate and I love the modular concept ... ... however, every time I've put my faith in "this technology is modular and you will be able to extend/upgrade it way into the future", I've been disappointed. The worst offenders are CPU manufacturers who assure us that "Socket N" will be their new CPU pin format for, well, a good long time, and then two years later we move to "Socket N+1". The same thing for RAM. My experience that expecting an upgrade path via physical interface re-use with new components buys you at most 3 years, sometimes only 2. Framework appear to building the actual components into their self-design modules, so that they control the physical interfaces. This seems like a step up but if the company remains small then the chance of not being able to upgrade again in a few years because they're either out of business, or are not packaging the components you want, seem fairly high. The fact that the designs are going to be open sourced is great, but I don't see that as a strong hedge against this problem.

bombcar 4y ago
Most of the "modularity" of Framework seems to be USB dongles built-in. CPU upgradability was never a real selling point except for ONE use case - when. new socket came out, buy the cheapest reasonable CPU early on, and then just when it was about to cease manufacturing, buy the best you could get; would give you a year or two extra. RAM and disk upgrades USED to be very important; but I haven't really "felt" the need anymore.
- zerocrates 4y ago
  It's not modularity, but upgradability of the CPU (through a total replacement of the motherboard) is part of the Framework pitch: keeping the form factor the same so you can do drop-in replacements. So far they have boards for Intel's 11th, 12th, and now 13th generations, and an AMD option. So they're doing pretty good on that front.
  - 4y ago

synergy20 4y ago

I don't do gaming but I do want to buy a reasonably priced Machine Learning training high-end box somewhere, better with 4090 card installed.

ngneer 4y ago

The 13 weighs 1.3kg, how much does the 16 weigh?

xenon7 4y ago

I don't see this happening any time soon, but it would be really nice to see an 11.6 inch Framework intended for the education market. The new N series "Intel Processor" (aka Celeron/Pentium) CPUs are actually quite powerful considering they have a 6 watt TDP. The only problem would be the price.

mymythisisthis 4y ago

I like having 2 drives. This seems to only have a slot for one drive? It doesn't take too long until you end up with TBs of stuff.

BadBadJellyBean 4y ago
You can put storage in one or more of the 4 expansion slots on the sides.
- joombaga 4y ago
  There are 6 slots on the 16.
  - mymythisisthis 4y ago
    What drives are the slots compatible with?
    - joombaga 4y ago
      They sell their own 1 TB and 250 GB expansion cards. I've been using the 1 TB as my Pop!_OS system drive.

Zuiii 4y ago

Why do companies insist on messing with laptop keyboard layouts? Where's the menu key? Where are the Home, PgDn, PgUp, and End keys? I've used cheap sub 300-dollar laptops with keyboards more complete than this. The silver lining here is that Framework keyboards are replaceable in theory. I'll wait until a proper keyboard gets released.

coldpie 4y ago
> Where's the menu key? Seems gone. I can't say I've personally ever used it, so that's probably why it's one of the first keys to go, but I know that doesn't help you. > Where are the Home, PgDn, PgUp, and End keys? They're available via Fn+Arrow Cluster.
- Zuiii 4y ago
  > Seems gone. I can't say I've personally ever used it I rely on it heavily and I'm sure many others do to. I wish framework included the key in their study as well. Ether way, no menu key == no buy from me.
  - celu 4y ago
    You might be a rarity here. I've never heard of anyone using the menu key, and most don't even know what it is. I'm honestly kind of curious how you use it. In my experience, almost anything on the menu it opens has a common shortcut
    - Zuiii 4y ago
      > You might be a rarity here. And I might not be, hence my call for actual metrics.
TapamN 4y ago
If someone from Framework is reading this, page up and page down are among my most used keys. Having to use an extra hand for something so common is crazy. I absolutely will not buy a laptop or standalone keyboard without dedicated page up and page down keys. Ideally, page up and down will be next to the arrow keys (look at a Thinkpad keyboard), but off to the side is still better than not existing.

olah_1 4y ago

Isn’t the idea of a modular computer defeated if only one company has a monopoly on the modules that you can buy?

ChrisArchitect 4y ago

Aside: The international urls for this site are annoying for sharing. I understand it of course but like this one shared as /fr/ when there's already been other posts this week about same thing but on other urls main url should be canonical https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16 https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16 which redirects to local urls (which of course also are likely all in english for the blog post) and was shared earlier not to mention the main product page shared days ago

anotheryou 4y ago

I want a stand-alone qmk ultra flat chicklet keyboard! Does anyone know what the protocol they use is? I'd assume for the keyboard it might be usb. So maybe all I'd need is to solder a flex-adapter to a usb plug and 3D print a case.

anotheryou 4y ago
Looks to be standard USB 2.0, just a special connector and a few extra pins I'd probably don't need. https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/InputModules https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/InputModules

snihalani 4y ago

English link: https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16 https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-framework-laptop-16

eins1234 4y ago

Really happy for anyone looking for a larger high-performance laptop! But personally, I was really hoping for a 13-inch convertible with touch and pen input from these guys... Maybe next year?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]