9 ms·

Those affected will be notified Mid-April. So the question on a lot of employees minds is: Do we try to relocate in time for the May 1st RTO and risk getting f

Those affected will be notified Mid-April. So the question on a lot of employees minds is: Do we try to relocate in time for the May 1st RTO and risk getting fired - or do we wait to see if we're part of the layoffs and then try to relocate with the remaining 2 weeks we have left.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
If you’re good, you’re already looking. If you’re not good or you don’t think you’re good, you’re waiting. Severance, unemployment, etc. Broadly speaking of course, exceptions as always.
- melvinmelih 4y ago
  > If you’re good, you’re already looking. But.. where do you go as an overpaid FAANG employee? Amazon, Google, Microsoft etc all have layoffs
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    You’re likely not overpaid at Amazon vs other FAANGs based on changes to equity comp. If you’re somewhere where you were overpaid, I hope you saved accordingly now that you’re going back to a $150k-$200k/year job. As others have mentioned, you might not be able to find a $300k-$500k/year job, but you should be able to find something.
    - closeparen 4y ago
      At $150k in the Bay Area you’re going to be renting and spending 2 hours a day on public transit. Those roles made sense as a career stepping stone up to homeownership & family supporting roles. I don’t anticipate too many senior folks taking them unless they get exceptions to go remote or they already have mega home equity / rent control.
      - jcadam 4y ago
        That's freaking hilarious, I didn't cross $150k until I was just shy of 40 years old. My first SWE job paid $55k. Not in the bay area, though.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        laidoffamazon 4y ago
        People working at Cisco aren't cracking $150k until they're mid-level at minimum. The people on this thread are completely out of touch.
        closeparen 4y ago
        AFAIK people aren’t giving up middle class lives elsewhere in the US and relocating for Cisco.
        laidoffamazon 4y ago
        To most people, Cisco would be considered a high paying employer. If anything, people are giving up middle class lives in other countries and relocating to San Jose for Cisco.
        closeparen 4y ago
        Living 5 adults to a house in San Jose might genuinely be better than living in India. I wouldn’t know. The point is if you have moved to Wisconsin or whatever, it would be foolish to move back to San Jose for that.
      - barbazoo 4y ago
        I'm curious and asking in good faith, $150k in CA seem to translate to just over $100k take home. Looking at Zillow there seem to be an abundance of places all over the bay area around $2.5k (1bdrm) and $3.5k (2bdrm) which sound not too bad on one and 2 incomes respectively, just like what everyone else is doing, around a third of your income. I don't get why you're assuming one would have commute 2 hours a day. Is transit that bad even if you're close to where you work? I honestly don't get it fully. Don't get me wrong, it sucks and I wish housing was cheaper but I think that's just the way it is now for everybody that has to work in person somewhere. And 25% of your take home income spent on housing isn't too bad at all and that's at the lower end of the spectrum GP is talking about here ($150k-$200k).
  - synergy20 4y ago
    FAANG's overpay made many of the local talents leaving their long term employers in no time, nobody can resist 2x or 3x pay, per my observation, FAANG the monsters destroyed those small and middle size players too quickly. maybe it's time to swing back a little.
- miav 4y ago
  "The problem doesn't exist for the very best" is really not much of an answer. Besides, even the best may not have much luck right now. Tons of employees from what are considered the top companies are looking for a new job. I have a very solid CV and I'm getting ghosted when applying for jobs I could have taken for granted a year ago.
  - berkle4455 4y ago
    I’ll give you the point of view you won’t like but it’s the truth: Candidates from “top companies” come with a lot of baggage. They’re going to expect a continuance of the massive inflated salaries they enjoyed at those top companies along with all the associated perks and amenities. They tend to be very egotistical, don’t want to be burdened with doing interview tests, white boards, or take-homes, and generally have this annoying holier-than-thou HN-level of arrogance. So why in the world would I want to hire an overpriced ex-rest-and-vester when I can instead hire someone hungry with a track record of making a difference at small to medium companies?
    - Invictus0 4y ago
      Because they are still able to pass your stupid whiteboards even if they don't want to do it (spoiler: no one wants to do it)
    - tomtheelder 4y ago
      I actually agree totally. My experiences doing hiring and then subsequently working alongside folks for the past decade or so have led me to view FAANG experience on a resume as a moderate negative signal. It’s not at all that I don’t think the folks who work there aren’t smart or talented- they have just disproportionately been difficult in the interview process and had impossible salary demands while being not being stronger performers than their peers.
    - noisenotsignal 4y ago
      Are those “with a track record of making a difference” also ok with interview tests, white boards, and/or take homes? I don’t know if viewing excessive tests with disdain is a characteristic solely exhibited by ex top tech; I feel like that’s a universal sentiment among top talent regardless of their background. Not wanting to be burdened with unnecessary burden is a good thing!! I also don’t think people generally have a problem with interviews. You have to be assessed somehow, obviously, and people at top companies still get interviewed when jumping to other top companies. I’ve really only seen serious complaints (that is, beyond mild grumbling) when interviewing is a huge time sink for a specific company, especially when that company’s compensation is lower and/or the communication process is poor (e.g. ghosting). Why in the world would anyone interview with you if your company offers less than top tech for equal or harder interviews? (Spinning your rhetoric back at you for added effect. I don’t know what your hiring is like.)
- lightbendover 4y ago
  I'm not looking, I plan to smile and do my own two things that I've been dreaming of doing for awhile (but it's somewhat hard to justify walking away from good steady pay) and now can due to financial independence as soon as either this layoff smokes me or RTO isn't rolled back.
- whatever1 4y ago
  If you are good and single. If you have a family to look after, you cannot casually have your partner quit their job, your kids to switch schools in the middle of the year, break your lease/ mortgage and move states overnight. There are real transaction costs for employees that do not allow for proper free market function
  - whatever1 4y ago
    Btw all these costs would be zero if remote work was legally mandated. But remote work showed how high they would have to pay to retain talent in a real free market environment. So unsurprisingly everyone forced a return to office policy.
    - thethimble 4y ago
      > if remote work was legally mandated This is hilarious
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        So were weekends at one point. No intent of derailing the thread, but everything is impossible until it’s done. Would you have thought a few weeks ago that California and the federal government could apply enough pressure to the largest pharma companies to set the price of insulin at $35? Me neither, but here we are. Come out swinging, we have nowhere to go but up. https://www.npr.org/2023/03/01/1160339792/eli-lilly-insulin-price https://www.npr.org/2023/03/01/1160339792/eli-lilly-insulin-... https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/sanofi-insulin-price-cap-rcna75346 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/sanofi-insulin-pr... Edit: Looks like California has gone so far as to contract to have it manufactured and set the price at $30, even better. Thesis is “change is possible.” Please excuse the length this example took to demonstrate the point. https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3907583-california-moves-to-cap-insulin-cost-at-30/ https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3907583-california-mov...
      - whatever1 4y ago
        Why not? With one stone you hit multiple birds. Housing crisis, traffic crisis, transportation infrastructure crisis, environmental crisis. Covid showed how many jobs can be conducted fully remotely.
- jcadam 4y ago
  > If you’re good, you’re already looking. You don't have to actually be good to find a well-paying job in this industry. You should be looking regardless.
- recursive_ 4y ago
  Or you're good, pragmatic, and riding out the storm. You can be a new guy at a tech company who will likely layoff or you can continue to do good work as an established employee who may get a hefty severance.
- bg24 4y ago
  If you are good, you are looking but may still wait... severance packages can be lucrative depending on the situation.
nfRfqX5n 4y ago
Would be crazy to move right now given the way they’ve been handling these layoffs
sakopov 4y ago
The sense that I got is that the whole relocation thing is on case-by-case basis. That is, it's up to your manager to work it out with you and determine whether or not this is a requirement. At least this is what I hear from someone working there. Is this not the case?
- revlolz 4y ago
  It's on a case by case basis, but the S-team leader (one below jassy) has to approve. This kills most cases. For typical employee this means this has to go through your boss and then 3-5 other executives.
- Xeoncross 4y ago
  Maybe, the communication is unclear and it seems your manager doesn't get to decide. They can help you apply for an exception, but even people with medical reasons are having trouble getting approval from what I've heard. The announcement stated they expected very few exceptions to the mandate.
- EwanToo 4y ago
  I believe that was the case with Amazon until a couple of weeks ago. Now your manager can no longer approve it, and even if your manager did previously approve it you might need to request approval from a higher authorisation level.
tempnow987 4y ago
Pretty easy call I think. If you've already been protesting / walking out / going on strike - I think you look for a position at another company, avoid the RTO and avoid the stress of the firing question. I think there were up to 500 employees who were protesting Amazon continuing to carry some of the books they carry. Otherwise if you have a family and are settled somewhere, I'd wait to find out before moving, then either commute during the week or get a temp spot once you know if you are RTO until kids are out of school where you are and you can plan a move more fully.
barbazoo 4y ago
> Those affected will be notified Mid-April. Imagine working there right now, that uncertainty must be so stressful, it would be for me.
jackcviers3 4y ago
Most of the studies I can find on Google show that remote employees are more productive, and that management trusts remote employees less, despite more productivity. Why are companies so interested in RTO, when the data seems to show that remote work is more productive? It seems like traditional management needs new training to sustain remote productivity gains, not that remote work should be discontinued to increase managers' trust in their employees.
- genmud 4y ago
  It’s a control and communications style thing, some managers like to be able to walk over and task people, or observe peoples work. I have found these people to generally be bad managers who use this to compensate for their lack of effective management skills, but that’s why.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

If you’re good, you’re already looking. If you’re not good or you don’t think you’re good, you’re waiting. Severance, unemployment, etc. Broadly speaking of course, exceptions as always.

melvinmelih 4y ago
> If you’re good, you’re already looking. But.. where do you go as an overpaid FAANG employee? Amazon, Google, Microsoft etc all have layoffs
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  You’re likely not overpaid at Amazon vs other FAANGs based on changes to equity comp. If you’re somewhere where you were overpaid, I hope you saved accordingly now that you’re going back to a $150k-$200k/year job. As others have mentioned, you might not be able to find a $300k-$500k/year job, but you should be able to find something.
  - closeparen 4y ago
    At $150k in the Bay Area you’re going to be renting and spending 2 hours a day on public transit. Those roles made sense as a career stepping stone up to homeownership & family supporting roles. I don’t anticipate too many senior folks taking them unless they get exceptions to go remote or they already have mega home equity / rent control.
    - jcadam 4y ago
      That's freaking hilarious, I didn't cross $150k until I was just shy of 40 years old. My first SWE job paid $55k. Not in the bay area, though.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - laidoffamazon 4y ago
        People working at Cisco aren't cracking $150k until they're mid-level at minimum. The people on this thread are completely out of touch.
        closeparen 4y ago
        AFAIK people aren’t giving up middle class lives elsewhere in the US and relocating for Cisco.
        laidoffamazon 4y ago
        To most people, Cisco would be considered a high paying employer. If anything, people are giving up middle class lives in other countries and relocating to San Jose for Cisco.
        closeparen 4y ago
        Living 5 adults to a house in San Jose might genuinely be better than living in India. I wouldn’t know. The point is if you have moved to Wisconsin or whatever, it would be foolish to move back to San Jose for that.
    - barbazoo 4y ago
      I'm curious and asking in good faith, $150k in CA seem to translate to just over $100k take home. Looking at Zillow there seem to be an abundance of places all over the bay area around $2.5k (1bdrm) and $3.5k (2bdrm) which sound not too bad on one and 2 incomes respectively, just like what everyone else is doing, around a third of your income. I don't get why you're assuming one would have commute 2 hours a day. Is transit that bad even if you're close to where you work? I honestly don't get it fully. Don't get me wrong, it sucks and I wish housing was cheaper but I think that's just the way it is now for everybody that has to work in person somewhere. And 25% of your take home income spent on housing isn't too bad at all and that's at the lower end of the spectrum GP is talking about here ($150k-$200k).
- synergy20 4y ago
  FAANG's overpay made many of the local talents leaving their long term employers in no time, nobody can resist 2x or 3x pay, per my observation, FAANG the monsters destroyed those small and middle size players too quickly. maybe it's time to swing back a little.
miav 4y ago
"The problem doesn't exist for the very best" is really not much of an answer. Besides, even the best may not have much luck right now. Tons of employees from what are considered the top companies are looking for a new job. I have a very solid CV and I'm getting ghosted when applying for jobs I could have taken for granted a year ago.
- berkle4455 4y ago
  I’ll give you the point of view you won’t like but it’s the truth: Candidates from “top companies” come with a lot of baggage. They’re going to expect a continuance of the massive inflated salaries they enjoyed at those top companies along with all the associated perks and amenities. They tend to be very egotistical, don’t want to be burdened with doing interview tests, white boards, or take-homes, and generally have this annoying holier-than-thou HN-level of arrogance. So why in the world would I want to hire an overpriced ex-rest-and-vester when I can instead hire someone hungry with a track record of making a difference at small to medium companies?
  - Invictus0 4y ago
    Because they are still able to pass your stupid whiteboards even if they don't want to do it (spoiler: no one wants to do it)
  - tomtheelder 4y ago
    I actually agree totally. My experiences doing hiring and then subsequently working alongside folks for the past decade or so have led me to view FAANG experience on a resume as a moderate negative signal. It’s not at all that I don’t think the folks who work there aren’t smart or talented- they have just disproportionately been difficult in the interview process and had impossible salary demands while being not being stronger performers than their peers.
  - noisenotsignal 4y ago
    Are those “with a track record of making a difference” also ok with interview tests, white boards, and/or take homes? I don’t know if viewing excessive tests with disdain is a characteristic solely exhibited by ex top tech; I feel like that’s a universal sentiment among top talent regardless of their background. Not wanting to be burdened with unnecessary burden is a good thing!! I also don’t think people generally have a problem with interviews. You have to be assessed somehow, obviously, and people at top companies still get interviewed when jumping to other top companies. I’ve really only seen serious complaints (that is, beyond mild grumbling) when interviewing is a huge time sink for a specific company, especially when that company’s compensation is lower and/or the communication process is poor (e.g. ghosting). Why in the world would anyone interview with you if your company offers less than top tech for equal or harder interviews? (Spinning your rhetoric back at you for added effect. I don’t know what your hiring is like.)
lightbendover 4y ago
I'm not looking, I plan to smile and do my own two things that I've been dreaming of doing for awhile (but it's somewhat hard to justify walking away from good steady pay) and now can due to financial independence as soon as either this layoff smokes me or RTO isn't rolled back.
whatever1 4y ago
If you are good and single. If you have a family to look after, you cannot casually have your partner quit their job, your kids to switch schools in the middle of the year, break your lease/ mortgage and move states overnight. There are real transaction costs for employees that do not allow for proper free market function
- whatever1 4y ago
  Btw all these costs would be zero if remote work was legally mandated. But remote work showed how high they would have to pay to retain talent in a real free market environment. So unsurprisingly everyone forced a return to office policy.
  - thethimble 4y ago
    > if remote work was legally mandated This is hilarious
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      So were weekends at one point. No intent of derailing the thread, but everything is impossible until it’s done. Would you have thought a few weeks ago that California and the federal government could apply enough pressure to the largest pharma companies to set the price of insulin at $35? Me neither, but here we are. Come out swinging, we have nowhere to go but up. https://www.npr.org/2023/03/01/1160339792/eli-lilly-insulin-price https://www.npr.org/2023/03/01/1160339792/eli-lilly-insulin-... https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/sanofi-insulin-price-cap-rcna75346 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/sanofi-insulin-pr... Edit: Looks like California has gone so far as to contract to have it manufactured and set the price at $30, even better. Thesis is “change is possible.” Please excuse the length this example took to demonstrate the point. https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3907583-california-moves-to-cap-insulin-cost-at-30/ https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/3907583-california-mov...
    - whatever1 4y ago
      Why not? With one stone you hit multiple birds. Housing crisis, traffic crisis, transportation infrastructure crisis, environmental crisis. Covid showed how many jobs can be conducted fully remotely.
jcadam 4y ago
> If you’re good, you’re already looking. You don't have to actually be good to find a well-paying job in this industry. You should be looking regardless.
recursive_ 4y ago
Or you're good, pragmatic, and riding out the storm. You can be a new guy at a tech company who will likely layoff or you can continue to do good work as an established employee who may get a hefty severance.
bg24 4y ago
If you are good, you are looking but may still wait... severance packages can be lucrative depending on the situation.

nfRfqX5n 4y ago

Would be crazy to move right now given the way they’ve been handling these layoffs

sakopov 4y ago

The sense that I got is that the whole relocation thing is on case-by-case basis. That is, it's up to your manager to work it out with you and determine whether or not this is a requirement. At least this is what I hear from someone working there. Is this not the case?

revlolz 4y ago
It's on a case by case basis, but the S-team leader (one below jassy) has to approve. This kills most cases. For typical employee this means this has to go through your boss and then 3-5 other executives.
Xeoncross 4y ago
Maybe, the communication is unclear and it seems your manager doesn't get to decide. They can help you apply for an exception, but even people with medical reasons are having trouble getting approval from what I've heard. The announcement stated they expected very few exceptions to the mandate.
EwanToo 4y ago
I believe that was the case with Amazon until a couple of weeks ago. Now your manager can no longer approve it, and even if your manager did previously approve it you might need to request approval from a higher authorisation level.

tempnow987 4y ago

Pretty easy call I think. If you've already been protesting / walking out / going on strike - I think you look for a position at another company, avoid the RTO and avoid the stress of the firing question. I think there were up to 500 employees who were protesting Amazon continuing to carry some of the books they carry. Otherwise if you have a family and are settled somewhere, I'd wait to find out before moving, then either commute during the week or get a temp spot once you know if you are RTO until kids are out of school where you are and you can plan a move more fully.

barbazoo 4y ago

> Those affected will be notified Mid-April. Imagine working there right now, that uncertainty must be so stressful, it would be for me.

jackcviers3 4y ago

Most of the studies I can find on Google show that remote employees are more productive, and that management trusts remote employees less, despite more productivity. Why are companies so interested in RTO, when the data seems to show that remote work is more productive? It seems like traditional management needs new training to sustain remote productivity gains, not that remote work should be discontinued to increase managers' trust in their employees.

genmud 4y ago
It’s a control and communications style thing, some managers like to be able to walk over and task people, or observe peoples work. I have found these people to generally be bad managers who use this to compensate for their lack of effective management skills, but that’s why.