11 ms·

"..what Apple is doing to something which should allow you to work is just atrocious.." Anyone know what his specific issues are?

williamDafoe 4y ago
I recently tried to install gdb on a Mac. Well after 1 hour I gave up and went a different direction. gatekeeper was refusing to install code that wasn't signed out the wazoo and the 14-step instructions on how to sign, approve, bless, and sprinkle holy-water on top of a gnu gdb binary was just too much. it didn't matter what i did - even if i downloaded the source code, compiled and ran it as root, that wasn't going to make gatekeeper happy. gdb was never going to start. if you watch this talk you can tell that gatekeeper is taking away your freedoms. they are trying to turn each and every binary on your machine into a walled garden. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/701/?time=1460 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/701/?time=1... this will put apple in a superior position - the only company able to make a binary that can use every resource in the OS - and will put developers at a great disadvantage!
chongli 4y ago
If I had to guess, it would be Gatekeeper and SIP. These technologies can really get in your way if you’re used to having full access to your own machine.
- wsc981 4y ago
  That was my guess as well. And as a lifelong Mac user it makes me consider switching to Linux as well. It’s just that I still need macOS for iOS dev right now, but that might change in coming months ...
- underdeserver 4y ago
  I mean, you can disable both of these.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    And in that context, it’s better to at least have the option, should you ever feel the need to use it. Personally I leave both on because even having used computer for 27 years at this point, I can still slip up and I’m still vulnerable to social engineering among other things, and so it’s nice to have something to help cover for those situations. It’s no cure-all, but it at least raises the bar for malware and such.
  - Sargos 4y ago
    You can disable the telemetry in Windows but it still caused many die hards to abandon Windows.
  - asveikau 4y ago
    Most people won't. And if you're developing software distributed to others, this will put your machine in a state where you aren't testing what your end users get.
dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
I don't think there are specific issues. The problem is that with each release of macOS usability, reliability and performance regress. If you're interested in these things and not so much in "bling" and questionable new features, then you'd share probably Ken's "atrocious" opinion. An example is the latest System Preferences. It's virtually unusable.
- rasengan 4y ago
  Apple ecosystem is no longer software - only apps. It’s hard to do(code) normal things on the OS because of all of the fancy “security”
  - dagmx 4y ago
    What code is prevented by security? Other than limits to kexts, your code isn’t beholden to most of the system security changes unless you specifically opt in to make a sandboxed app.
    - runjake 4y ago
      Your code is certainly “beholden” to most of the system security changes, and your app is effectively sandboxes regardless of your wishes. Source: Self after working on anti-theft software for macOS, for a few years now.
      - dagmx 4y ago
        Your app is not beholden to sandboxing unless you specifically are using sandboxing as part of your application configuration. It would also only apply to app bundles. I can make a command line tool or a standalone Qt application right now without having sandboxing pop up at all. Even for access that the OS protects the user from, as an app developer I rarely need to think about it. When I try and access a limited area it asks the user for me. Source: self after working on lots of varied code bases from web dev to 3D libraries and standalone applications for over a decade.
    - 4y ago
milgra 4y ago
I don't know the exact issues but might be related to the issues why I left Apple : I was developing a very successful little tool for MacOS ( https://github.com/milgra/macmediakeyforwarder https://github.com/milgra/macmediakeyforwarder ) which listened for keypresses. From 2016 to 2019 it became harder and harder to install it because apple added more and more restrictions to apps like this. By 2019, you had to enable the application explicitly to listen for events at least in three places deep down in the system preferences, click accept in various popups and if you stuck somewhere then nobody could tell why it wasn't working. So I had a very expensive laptop and the OS didn't let me use it freely. So I just switched to freebsd and linux. Hardware quality is far away from Apple's but it is cheap, I don't have fancy productivity apps like photoshop and final cut but with open source tools and with my own desktop applications I created the best looking/most usable desktop experience MacOS will never have. ( https://swayos.github.io/ https://swayos.github.io/ )
- dtgriscom 4y ago
  Given that it should be difficult, if not impossible, for random applications to listen in on user actions, is there a better way Apple could have done this? (Disclaimer: Apple fan/user since 1985.)
  - milgra 4y ago
    A popup on the first start with an alert and a password prompt is a good solution, but usually too many users type in their passwords blindly in case of a password prompt, so I would go with just an alert with "you need root privileges to run this app" and then they have to figure out 1. why do they need root privileges 2. how do they start an app with root privileges.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - KerrAvon 4y ago
      The security barriers for getting keyboard events in macOS are not as simple as “root has access to everything”, and for various reasons can’t and shouldn’t be that simple. So ignoring that part, Apple could make this into a one-click solution, but the number of legit apps that need to do this are so small that it’s very unlikely they will dedicate engineering time to it. This is obviously where open source is superior. Apple probably can’t justify cleaning this up in macOS, but you can just go in and make it easier on on Linux if you have the knowledge and time.
baby 4y ago
Having to install xcode to compile C code?
- e40 4y ago
  The command line tools are enough. I have never used Xcode and I compile stuff all the time.
- dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
  You don't need to install XCode. You can install Clang easily, or GCC if you must. You can just install the XCode command line tools if you need them.
- kderbyma 4y ago
  [flagged]
blackhaz 4y ago
To me it appears Apple has lost all the focus after Steve Jobs, there is no "do more with less" spirit in Apple products anymore. They still got some Mac OS X inertia, but it's mostly about changing colors, animations, rearranging items and trying to address every possible use case - instead of offering new OS paradigms. It's interesting that their hardware division keeps innovating - people seem to love their M1s. I miss coherent Unix environment on good hardware. Snow Leopard times were great.
- williamDafoe 4y ago
  Which OS release did they hold recently where "The Big New Thing" was new Emoji Packs?
- wyclif 4y ago
  I also miss the Snow Leopard era. Not a single crash under stress!
jasoneckert 4y ago
As an Apple user since the early days of OS X, I remember watching that part of the presentation thinking to myself "he knows he doesn't need to elaborate on that." I think many of us watching Apple for the past two decades have seen the OS move slowly towards closed standards and tighter control instead of openness and functionality. Each time I boot my PowerBook G4 running Leopard for a nostalgia kick, I'm reminded of how great OS X once was. But as Ken pointed out, they've been doing it over a long period of time, so it's OK (i.e., it's given us plenty of time to move to other alternatives).
fundad 4y ago
Apple addresses a market of people who entered the market over 5 decades. Most of them way after Ken. It went from improving on the Mac to completing the Mac’s destiny as a computing appliance.
BearOso 4y ago
What bothers me is how they're charging developers to build for their system and semi-require server verification for programs to run. In the earlier Mac OS X era they used to be very open (and free) with their tools and actively encouraging. It feels very backwards now. For example, Microsoft was really restrictive with its expensive tools at that time and gradually opened them up. It's like the two companies reversed positions. As a kid, I could never afford to buy pro dev tools, and while it's not as expensive currently, I think that's the way Apple is headed. It's not going to help more people get into programming.
Zurrrrr 4y ago
I don't know what his specific issues are but I've always found it odd how many IT professionals prefer Apple. The interface is so frustrating to me and there is so much the OS makes hard to do. It really does get in the way a lot more.
m463 4y ago
I think apple is degrading general purpose computing. It seems like you have to buy software to do anything on macos more conveniently. Why can't I write a script in python? or a gui script in python? it's the top language. You can use say swift, but even with "oh we opened it up", it's really an apple-specific language, and it's compiled. Yes you can get brew going, but that's not apple. and ios - what a travesty. You don't own your phone. You can't access your filesystem. you have to ask permission to do anything (and they don't grant it for most things)
- jdminhbg 4y ago
  > It seems like you have to buy software to do anything on macos more conveniently. > Why can't I write a script in python? or a gui script in python? it's the top language. You definitely don’t need to buy Python, it’s F/OSS and one command away.
  - m463 4y ago
    sorry, yes, I know. they shipped 2.7 for years, but it's not a "first-class language". you can kind of do gui with tk. There's really no scripting language (applescript isn't really what I would call a scripting language, and really just not that good).
- wbear 4y ago
  macOS comes with python already.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Isn't it obvious? Look at how Apple devices are used and look at what he built. I'm surprised he stuck around this long. He doesn't care if the touchpad is marginally better or their silicon is marginally faster because they are trying to destroy his world.

williamDafoe 4y ago

I recently tried to install gdb on a Mac. Well after 1 hour I gave up and went a different direction. gatekeeper was refusing to install code that wasn't signed out the wazoo and the 14-step instructions on how to sign, approve, bless, and sprinkle holy-water on top of a gnu gdb binary was just too much. it didn't matter what i did - even if i downloaded the source code, compiled and ran it as root, that wasn't going to make gatekeeper happy. gdb was never going to start. if you watch this talk you can tell that gatekeeper is taking away your freedoms. they are trying to turn each and every binary on your machine into a walled garden. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/701/?time=1460 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/701/?time=1... this will put apple in a superior position - the only company able to make a binary that can use every resource in the OS - and will put developers at a great disadvantage!

chongli 4y ago

If I had to guess, it would be Gatekeeper and SIP. These technologies can really get in your way if you’re used to having full access to your own machine.

wsc981 4y ago
That was my guess as well. And as a lifelong Mac user it makes me consider switching to Linux as well. It’s just that I still need macOS for iOS dev right now, but that might change in coming months ...
underdeserver 4y ago
I mean, you can disable both of these.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  And in that context, it’s better to at least have the option, should you ever feel the need to use it. Personally I leave both on because even having used computer for 27 years at this point, I can still slip up and I’m still vulnerable to social engineering among other things, and so it’s nice to have something to help cover for those situations. It’s no cure-all, but it at least raises the bar for malware and such.
- Sargos 4y ago
  You can disable the telemetry in Windows but it still caused many die hards to abandon Windows.
- asveikau 4y ago
  Most people won't. And if you're developing software distributed to others, this will put your machine in a state where you aren't testing what your end users get.

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago

I don't think there are specific issues. The problem is that with each release of macOS usability, reliability and performance regress. If you're interested in these things and not so much in "bling" and questionable new features, then you'd share probably Ken's "atrocious" opinion. An example is the latest System Preferences. It's virtually unusable.

rasengan 4y ago
Apple ecosystem is no longer software - only apps. It’s hard to do(code) normal things on the OS because of all of the fancy “security”
- dagmx 4y ago
  What code is prevented by security? Other than limits to kexts, your code isn’t beholden to most of the system security changes unless you specifically opt in to make a sandboxed app.
  - runjake 4y ago
    Your code is certainly “beholden” to most of the system security changes, and your app is effectively sandboxes regardless of your wishes. Source: Self after working on anti-theft software for macOS, for a few years now.
    - dagmx 4y ago
      Your app is not beholden to sandboxing unless you specifically are using sandboxing as part of your application configuration. It would also only apply to app bundles. I can make a command line tool or a standalone Qt application right now without having sandboxing pop up at all. Even for access that the OS protects the user from, as an app developer I rarely need to think about it. When I try and access a limited area it asks the user for me. Source: self after working on lots of varied code bases from web dev to 3D libraries and standalone applications for over a decade.
  - 4y ago

milgra 4y ago

I don't know the exact issues but might be related to the issues why I left Apple : I was developing a very successful little tool for MacOS ( https://github.com/milgra/macmediakeyforwarder https://github.com/milgra/macmediakeyforwarder ) which listened for keypresses. From 2016 to 2019 it became harder and harder to install it because apple added more and more restrictions to apps like this. By 2019, you had to enable the application explicitly to listen for events at least in three places deep down in the system preferences, click accept in various popups and if you stuck somewhere then nobody could tell why it wasn't working. So I had a very expensive laptop and the OS didn't let me use it freely. So I just switched to freebsd and linux. Hardware quality is far away from Apple's but it is cheap, I don't have fancy productivity apps like photoshop and final cut but with open source tools and with my own desktop applications I created the best looking/most usable desktop experience MacOS will never have. ( https://swayos.github.io/ https://swayos.github.io/ )

dtgriscom 4y ago
Given that it should be difficult, if not impossible, for random applications to listen in on user actions, is there a better way Apple could have done this? (Disclaimer: Apple fan/user since 1985.)
- milgra 4y ago
  A popup on the first start with an alert and a password prompt is a good solution, but usually too many users type in their passwords blindly in case of a password prompt, so I would go with just an alert with "you need root privileges to run this app" and then they have to figure out 1. why do they need root privileges 2. how do they start an app with root privileges.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - KerrAvon 4y ago
    The security barriers for getting keyboard events in macOS are not as simple as “root has access to everything”, and for various reasons can’t and shouldn’t be that simple. So ignoring that part, Apple could make this into a one-click solution, but the number of legit apps that need to do this are so small that it’s very unlikely they will dedicate engineering time to it. This is obviously where open source is superior. Apple probably can’t justify cleaning this up in macOS, but you can just go in and make it easier on on Linux if you have the knowledge and time.

baby 4y ago

Having to install xcode to compile C code?

e40 4y ago
The command line tools are enough. I have never used Xcode and I compile stuff all the time.
dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
You don't need to install XCode. You can install Clang easily, or GCC if you must. You can just install the XCode command line tools if you need them.
kderbyma 4y ago
[flagged]

blackhaz 4y ago

To me it appears Apple has lost all the focus after Steve Jobs, there is no "do more with less" spirit in Apple products anymore. They still got some Mac OS X inertia, but it's mostly about changing colors, animations, rearranging items and trying to address every possible use case - instead of offering new OS paradigms. It's interesting that their hardware division keeps innovating - people seem to love their M1s. I miss coherent Unix environment on good hardware. Snow Leopard times were great.

williamDafoe 4y ago
Which OS release did they hold recently where "The Big New Thing" was new Emoji Packs?
wyclif 4y ago
I also miss the Snow Leopard era. Not a single crash under stress!

jasoneckert 4y ago

As an Apple user since the early days of OS X, I remember watching that part of the presentation thinking to myself "he knows he doesn't need to elaborate on that." I think many of us watching Apple for the past two decades have seen the OS move slowly towards closed standards and tighter control instead of openness and functionality. Each time I boot my PowerBook G4 running Leopard for a nostalgia kick, I'm reminded of how great OS X once was. But as Ken pointed out, they've been doing it over a long period of time, so it's OK (i.e., it's given us plenty of time to move to other alternatives).

fundad 4y ago

Apple addresses a market of people who entered the market over 5 decades. Most of them way after Ken. It went from improving on the Mac to completing the Mac’s destiny as a computing appliance.

BearOso 4y ago

What bothers me is how they're charging developers to build for their system and semi-require server verification for programs to run. In the earlier Mac OS X era they used to be very open (and free) with their tools and actively encouraging. It feels very backwards now. For example, Microsoft was really restrictive with its expensive tools at that time and gradually opened them up. It's like the two companies reversed positions. As a kid, I could never afford to buy pro dev tools, and while it's not as expensive currently, I think that's the way Apple is headed. It's not going to help more people get into programming.

Zurrrrr 4y ago

I don't know what his specific issues are but I've always found it odd how many IT professionals prefer Apple. The interface is so frustrating to me and there is so much the OS makes hard to do. It really does get in the way a lot more.

m463 4y ago

I think apple is degrading general purpose computing. It seems like you have to buy software to do anything on macos more conveniently. Why can't I write a script in python? or a gui script in python? it's the top language. You can use say swift, but even with "oh we opened it up", it's really an apple-specific language, and it's compiled. Yes you can get brew going, but that's not apple. and ios - what a travesty. You don't own your phone. You can't access your filesystem. you have to ask permission to do anything (and they don't grant it for most things)

jdminhbg 4y ago
> It seems like you have to buy software to do anything on macos more conveniently. > Why can't I write a script in python? or a gui script in python? it's the top language. You definitely don’t need to buy Python, it’s F/OSS and one command away.
- m463 4y ago
  sorry, yes, I know. they shipped 2.7 for years, but it's not a "first-class language". you can kind of do gui with tk. There's really no scripting language (applescript isn't really what I would call a scripting language, and really just not that good).
wbear 4y ago
macOS comes with python already.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Isn't it obvious? Look at how Apple devices are used and look at what he built. I'm surprised he stuck around this long. He doesn't care if the touchpad is marginally better or their silicon is marginally faster because they are trying to destroy his world.