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Prostate cancer could be treated by destroying tumors with electric currents
- swader999 4y agoDoes this mean you need access to a MRI machine? "Guided by MRI scanning, the short pulses can be targeted to the right area, and surrounding healthy cells are left untouched and preserved, experts said."
- teruakohatu 4y agoThis seems like a game changer. According to the company website they have treated 6,000 patients. https://nanoknife.com https://nanoknife.com Further Googling showed it has been around since 2008 and machine in 2010 the machines cost $300k. Maybe the novel application is prostate cancer? https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704029304575525832837346848 https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704029304575525...
- rkagerer 4y agoNon-paywalled version of that WSJ article: https://archive.is/bDRgi https://archive.is/bDRgi. And a dumbed-down video primer on how it works: https://nanoknife.com/technology/ https://nanoknife.com/technology/ Basically they insert somewhere between two and a handful 1mm diameter needles, then pulse with high voltage to kill the cells in between. The article mentioned concerns from doctors that it hadn't been through large clinical trials yet. 13 years later, does anyone know of those trials have taken place?
- amelius 4y ago> with high voltage How high? Or is it the current that is controlled?
- _Microft 4y agoI think you can find more information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_electroporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_electroporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroporation#Physical_mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroporation#Physical_mecha...
- CommanderData 4y agoSeems to good to be true, retreatment only needed in 10% of cases with much less side effects too. Is this still in clinical trials?
- ars 4y agoIs there anything about this that is specific to the prostate? Wouldn't this exact same treatment work on other accessible tumors, for example breast or skin?
- iSnow 4y agoI'll take an uneducated guess here: this works best for small and clearly defined tumors. You would have a hard time causing electroporation of cell membranes farther away from the electrodes without damaging too much healthy tissue.
- CommanderData 4y agoI read its effective at treating lung and liver cancers too. Early diagnosis is key to survival.
- einpoklum 4y agoYour second sentence merits millions of upvotes. Many health care provision systems don't invest in screening tests or other early-detection schemes, or they do make them available, but don't invest in raising awareness of their availability. I'm actually now at the age where I should start thinking about "What new periodic tests/checkups should you introduce within the next 5 years?" ... and at this point I'm still clueless, except that I know that at around 50 I should start getting my PSA checked.
- dtgriscom 4y agoBeware: more testing does not imply better outcomes. There are many situations where a test result may show something that apparently "need to be addressed", but the side effects and problems caused by "addressing" that result is, on average, worse than the result of never having tested in the first place. Of course, many tests are valuable, with results that can lead to effective treatment. But, it's hard to know which is which without significant study. Refs: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/06/13/1104141886/cascade-of-care https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/06/13/1104141... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8628817/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8628817/ https://www.americanpatient.org/medical-tests-to-avoid-that-may-endanger-your-health/ https://www.americanpatient.org/medical-tests-to-avoid-that-...
- Antipodes456 4y agoSample size n=1, but my dad was on the research or clinical trial of this exact treatment in Sydney, it worked for his prostate cancer, he's still clear from PSA tests (and possibly had biopsy also. No side effects. Previously he'd had the radioactive beads treatment which failed, the only other option was removal. Both these options have potentially unpleasant side effects. Happy to ask him questions if anyone wants to know more
- glenstein 4y agoMay I ask how this was discovered in your dad's case? I feel like prostate cancer is the single most dangerous cancer for men in the late 30s, 40s, and 50s. So it's a subject I'm trying to pay attention to.
- hlehmann 4y agoI was diagnosed with prostate cancer when I was about 57. I had had somewhat regular "finger up the butt" exams prior to that, since I was about 45, which were all negative. Then a PSA blood test test came back positive and I then had a biopsy done (no fun, trust me). Because I was still in my 50's I needed to do something beyond just continuing to monitor it. Between radiation treatment and a prostatectomy I chose the latter. Eight years or so later my PSA tests are still negative, knock on wood. Lesson learned, I think, is to get a simple PSA blood test done regularly once you've reached a certain age.
- haldujai 4y agoI don't think you can conclude that from one patient, that's not how medicine works. Whether to actively surveil vs treat depends on individual patient characteristics and grade (generally Gleason 7+) and the fact that you didn't have a complication does not mean they're not sufficiently high. On a population level analysis the evidence clearly support that there is no improved mortality with prostate cancer screening.
- Antipodes456 4y agoHe had a change in PSA levels in his blood - it's a good idea to get your bloods checked annually so you can pick up any changes, as PSA levels vary a lot person to person. Also gan get "the finger" to see if you have an enlarged prostate. I think as far as cancers go, prostate is one of the better ones to get, not normally aggressive, you'll probably die before it kills you. Test often if you have family history.
- thr717272 4y agoFirst time it really hits home how large the risk is. 1/6 is a rather large risk.
- foepys 4y agoIt's more likely that you die with prostate cancer than because of prostate cancer. Yes, cancer is never good but for most men prostate cancer develops late and is usually growing very slowly and doesn't spread.
- thaumasiotes 4y agoIn medical school, one of my mother's classes had an exercise one day which took this form: Here are a bunch of slides of prostate samples. Find the cancerous one. This led to the teacher getting so many questions about whether the slide someone was currently looking at was the cancerous one that he was forced to interrupt the class to make this more general announcement: There's a bit of cancer in everyone's prostate. Find the slide with obvious cancer.
- copperx 4y agoSurely the slides were of men of an advanced age, right? Otherwise that statement is false.
- thaumasiotes 4y agoWhy do you think that?
- copperx 4y agoI don't believe every person of every age has observable cancer that can be seen on a slide.
- thaumasiotes 4y ago
- univr 4y agoThe department I work with created PROST, a robot that can help with biopsy for that type of cancer. It's still a Proof of Concept, but I think it's an interesting project to invest on. https://metropolis.scienze.univr.it/project/prost/ https://metropolis.scienze.univr.it/project/prost/
- haldujai 4y agoI actually perform image guided prostate biopsies, what is this solving / what’s the point? We have great diagnostic accuracy with TRUS+MR fusion with standard equipment. This just looks much slower and more expensive.
- imutemyteam92 4y ago[dead]
- benevol 4y ago[flagged]
- conjobn 4y agoNo it wouldn't, it just adds to the repertoire of available treatments.
- bulbosaur123 4y agoOnly initial cancer or mets as well? When can this be realistically tested on real humans? How long? I have a close relative with potential biochemical recurrence. Could this save him?
- sergiocampama 4y agohttps://youtu.be/gAYL5H46QnQ?t=131 https://youtu.be/gAYL5H46QnQ?t=131
- aquaphile 4y agoElectrical pulse ablation technology has been around a while, with multiple studies performed and a large body of patents. The promise and hope for the technology is that is causes cell apoptosis, and early rat studies showed electrical ablation shrinking tumors. The goal was/is to apply it to multiple cancer types. Source: I helped with one of the pioneering companies in the field. A quick internet search for "electrical ablation cell apoptosis cancer" yields a few research articles. For example https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fonc.2020.01235/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fonc.2020.01235...
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- kristopolous 4y agoI agree that this is old as the hills. I was reading a text recently that cited medical claims of electricity curing cancers in the 1870s. I'd assume there's more nuance this time around. At least I'd hope so. The article points to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_electroporation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_electroporation You can do quite a bit with electrical signals, perhaps there's some novel instruments and feedback loops being used
- theGnuMe 4y agoThere's something called tumor treating fields that uses electric fields for treating glioblastoma. Fascinating stuff.
- AdmiralAsshat 4y agoLast I checked, glioblastoma is still 100% fatal, so I guess all that can do is prolong the lifespan?
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- dnndev 4y agoIs this similar to rife machines that you can use at home? Essentially frequency generators.
- starkd 4y agoI would not try doing this at home.
- tgv 4y agoMy reply is totally against the guidelines, but the image of some bio-curious hacker sticking needles in the perineum and putting high voltages on them in a home lab is such an absurd mixture of horror and embarassement that your sane reply had me in stitches.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago"Man, since that study came out 2nd degree taint burns are up 75%."
- dybber 4y agoSeems like it comes with serious risk of complications. Here's a news article in Danish about NanoKnife from 2019: https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/kontant/kraeftramte-thomas-blev-behandlet-med-nanoknife-det-har-vaeret-katastrofalt https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/kontant/kraeftramte-thomas-b... Google Translated: https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/penge/kontant/kraeftramte-thomas-blev-behandlet-med-nanoknife-det-har-vaeret-katastrofalt?_x_tr_sl=da&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/penge/kontant/kraef...
- chiefalchemist 4y agoI heard an interview on one of NPR shows last week and the guest talked about using electricity for healing. For example, if I remember correctly, a wound treated in someway with electricity healed faster. It had something to do with stimulating the cells in a particular way. Side note: Does this give any credibility to the idea that magnets can heal?
- mrWiz 4y agoThe mechanism used here is that high voltage causes cells to open channels through the cell wall, letting good cell stuff out and bad stuff in. Do it enough and the cell will die. I'm no biologist but I don't know of a similar magnetic mechanism.
- chiefalchemist 4y agoI was thinking that if high voltage power lines produce a magnetic field, perhaps a magnetic field can influence energy in cells? Again, it's an idea inspired by the interview I heard. https://www.epa.gov/radtown/electric-and-magnetic-fields-power-lines https://www.epa.gov/radtown/electric-and-magnetic-fields-pow...
- LegitShady 4y agothe answer to your question is no, because the way you affect cells with electricity is not through magnets. Also, the mechanisms of this and that are not the same - they're literally killing cells with electricity here, not healing.
- chiefalchemist 4y agoYes. But I also reference how electric currents / fields are being researched for healing / regenerative purposes. The crux of that seems to be how to influence the energy properties cells already have.
- Rychard 4y agoYou may be referring to this[0], which was discussed on HN last week. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35060657 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35060657
- dangwhy 4y agoThis is only if cancer isn't metastatic. correct?
- zwieback 4y agoYes, from the sound of it. "Localized" usually means that the cancer is inside the tough membrane surrounding the prostate.
- afrcnc 4y agobusiness idea: anal beads that give you slight shocks every 10s #winnin
- ofchnofc 4y ago[dead]
- 1970-01-01 4y agoMuch more info on how it works is available via FDA.gov: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf18/K183385.pdf https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_docs/pdf18/K183385.pdf
- kornhole 4y agoI expect to soon see articles on HN with DIY instructions using a modified taser. The videos will get many views.
- the_third_wave 4y agoA TENS machine is cheaper and easier to come by: https://www.boots.com/health-pharmacy/electrical-health-diagnostics/tens-machines https://www.boots.com/health-pharmacy/electrical-health-diag... Replace the pads with some needles, insulate most of the needle with lacquer leaving only the points free... READY ... AIM ... FIRE!
- bookofjoe 4y agohttps://www.bookofjoe.com/2023/03/plasma-lighter-xr.html https://www.bookofjoe.com/2023/03/plasma-lighter-xr.html
- the_third_wave 4y agoOddly enough I've just been looking into a veterinary treatment method for superficial tumours based around cytostatica in combination with electric pulses - delivered by a pulse generator controlled by a Raspberry Pi - which are supposed to increase the efficacy of the cytostatica by 'electroporation' [1]. I'm mostly looking into this because the glossy site and the presentation given at my wife's vet clinic have a relatively high snake oil coefficient although there is some science [2] behind the process. It seems to come down to a combination of a TENS machine [3] (which can be had for around £40-60, ₤80 if you want it remotely controlled through your phone) with needle probes except for the fact that a 10-pack of 4-needle probes costs €2.500 while the machine itself - a Raspberry Pi with a keyboard, a pulse generator and an LCD screen in a compact box - costs around €25.000... [1] http://vetiqure.se/our-products/ http://vetiqure.se/our-products/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5092241/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5092241/ [3] https://www.boots.com/health-pharmacy/electrical-health-diagnostics/tens-machines https://www.boots.com/health-pharmacy/electrical-health-diag...
- cududa 4y agoPlease for the love of god tell me you're not testing this on animals and if you are, you have actual medical training?
- the_third_wave 4y agoWhy do you assume that I am testing 'this' on animals? Why do you ask whether I have 'actual medical training'? How do you think the original product was developed? Not so much in response to this rather grandstanding appeal to authority but just to describe how a product like this can be developed I can state that my wife is a veterinarian specialised in horses while I am a developer with a lot of experience in developing hard- and software. If we wanted to develop something like this we certainly could and maybe we will. Medical technology is not magic after all, the process which lies behind this system is known and has been researched [1] extensively - not by those who built the €25.000 unit, they just did what you insinuated we should not do. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/electroporation https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biolog...
- zwieback 4y agoI had PC in my early 40s, over 15 years ago now. If that treatment had been available then I might still opt for surgical removal. The peace of mind of getting the thing out is huge and the side effects for me were negligible, as I had a great surgeon and recovery for younger patients is pretty good. In my 60s I would definitely go for something like this although I'm always a little leery of treatments that have cool sounding brand names.
- laminarflow 4y agoIn a past life, I worked in prostate cancer ("PCa") clinical research. To drive home the point about how large of an unmet need this is: A) In addition to 1/6 men being diagnosed with PCa, an ~equally large percentage of men have undiagnosed cancer at the time of death, it just wasn't severe enough yet to be the thing that killed them. (1) B) Because treatment carries a 50% risk of sexual and/or urinary dysfunction side effects, the standard of care in the US for PCa is literally to leave the cancer untreated and monitor it closely, until it develops into an aggressive cancer. At that point, we treat the entire prostate (the opposite of "focal" therapy referenced in this article) and all bets are off re: side effects. Also, often by that time, the cancer has spread outside of the prostate and is much more difficult to treat. (1) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468294220300605 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S246829422...
- fortran77 4y agoMy father died from metastasized prostate cancer. If/when I get it I won’t do “watchful waiting”. I’m going to get the most aggressive treatment possible.
- laminarflow 4y agoMy condolences. Hopefully you never get it, and better treatments are available if you do.
- Panzer04 4y agoMost current cancer treatment methods we have are basically sledgehammers with loads of collateral damage - it’s not surprising the preference is to leave it if it’s benign.
- jojohohanon 4y agoPaywall
- nerpderp82 4y agoNow we know what the A stands for in T.A.S.E.R
- jerbearito 4y agoMy uncle recently had this procedure here in the US. His hospital tried to push him quickly toward a surgical option, but he did his own research and eventually found this. It cost him $15k out of pocket, he now has a clean bill of health, and as a bonus he avoided potential/likely erectile dysfunction.
- thepostman0 4y agoCheckmate cancer
- steponlego 4y agoThis has been debunked for generations, much like orgone. People have gone to JAIL for suggesting that you can use electricity to cure diseases such as cancer.
- Fably 4y ago[dead]
- Fably 4y ago[dead]