6 ms·

You probably don't want to go to a FANG. Start your career somewhere else. It's easier to 'level up' and if you want to go FANG later on you can leverage that

You probably don't want to go to a FANG. Start your career somewhere else. It's easier to 'level up' and if you want to go FANG later on you can leverage that. I am the highest level of Sr. SWE at my FANG w/ very little work to get there vs the folks I work with who are grinding themselves to death trying to get promoted from within. Edit: I'll add that your first job or two is pretty important for setting the tone of your career. Going to a FANG and learning toxic habits, like putting yourself above your team and thinking only of compensation/promotions, can make you an asshole for life.

fdgsdfogijq 4y ago
Being on the inside, these companies are really not innovating. Just optimizing existing platforms
- beebmam 4y ago
  I agree. But in my opinion, that's the perfect kind of company to start your software engineer career in.
- 01100011 4y ago
  I'm not getting into that debate, but I'll say that the most important thing for a new engineer isn't being at an innovative company. It's just learning the ropes, making your first mistakes, fixing them, learning team skills, etc. Sure, you want to avoid the bureaucratic nightmares like the defense industry, but I think many SW shops will teach you a lot vs school.
  - fdgsdfogijq 4y ago
    I bet you alot of the engineers at openAI doing impactful work are just a few years out of school, if that. Big tech is filled with bureaucrats
    - 01100011 4y ago
      Aren't a lot of those projects built on top of FANG outputs? I.e. pytorch, tensorflow, CUDA, AWS, etc?
      - fdgsdfogijq 4y ago
        Sure, but as a junior engineer on one of those teams, some senior engineer thats been there a decade will shoulder you out of the best learning opportunities. Also, that stuff was invented more than a decade ago in most cases. Very different companies back then
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
gretch 4y ago
To the GP: I'm FANG now, started my career at non-FANG. Largely I agree with this advice, but for a completely set of different reasons. In particular -> "Going to a FANG and learning toxic habits, like putting yourself above your team and thinking only of compensation/promotions, can make you an asshole for life." I think you'd be unwise to think that FANG will teach you toxic habits and putting yourself your team. Or if it happens, that other companies on average are better and FANG is the bottom of the barrel.
fsociety 4y ago
Strong disagree, going to FAANG or alternatively a larger company respected for engineering chops will open a lot of doors. It definitely did for me. Also the sore reality is assholes are everywhere, and smaller companies have less rail guards to prevent them from gaining authority in an org. Whereas at larger companies you have more leeway in moving teams and finding an org with wonderful people. That doesn’t mean a startup is a bad choice for a new grad, it can be the best choice for many. But I would not count out larger companies so quickly.
- rimliu 4y ago
  There are people who respect F (M) for engineering chops? Interesting. To me they more look like "that's how not to do things" than the opposite.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    It sounds impossible to characterize a bigco, which is like a trillion competing and independent duchies and fiefdoms, with any sort of sweeping statement about how good their engineers are.
    - sethhochberg 4y ago
      Not to mention the entire disciplines of engineering that really only exist at the megacorps - Meta is still on the relatively bleeding edge of datacenter design, both physical plant and networking.
  - linkregister 4y ago
    The amount of recruiter spam increases by an order of magnitude once a FAANG-level technology company appears on one's resume. It has a dramatic change in the amount of technical interviews that are granted to an applicant.
    - Silhouette 4y ago
      At what kind of company? Looking from outside and in particular from outside the US the whole FAANG culture seems very strange. There is - or was - a huge amount of money available in compensation that seems almost completely disconnected from the value of an individual developer's contribution to the business or the level of useful skills and experience the developer has. And it seems there's this kind of clique effect where those who have worked in a FAANG or a high-profile startup are assumed by others who have worked at FAANGs or high-profile startups to be somehow better than everyone else. But IME once you're outside that bubble a more likely assumption is that ex-FAANG people will demand more than they're worth and won't necessarily be any more competent or productive than anyone else. And ex-multiple-FAANGs with rapid job hopping at the start of a career is a huge red flag.
nfRfqX5n 4y ago
I always thought the faang horror stories come from new grads, since there is so much operational stuff you have to navigate. Not sure I'd want to start my career there. Going in as a senior wasn't bad though.
durandal1 4y ago
You earlier described working at a "FANG:ish" company, do you actually work in M-FAANG? Where I work you get nowhere without convincing XF partners to do work for your area of responsibility, and if you come across as an asshole, they will find a reason to not do it. Assholes get held back in promos and this is clearly communicated in reviews.
actuator 4y ago
Wrong advice. If you want to be leveled up fast in a FAANG, you should start in one. I know of 4+ YOE people jumping one level per year, they are an exception but the argument is, it is faster if you are born into the culture, rather than if you adopt it.
- endtime 4y ago
  This is impossible at Google. Can probably be done at Meta, or at least could several years ago. I wouldn't paint with too broad a brush here.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - disgruntledphd2 4y ago
    I got promoted twice in two years at Facebook, back in the day. Definitely possible. Mind you, my manager lated admitted that I was under leveled but the comp worked for me at the time.
boshalfoshal 4y ago
Disagree. Imo, you should be at a FAANG company at least once. I liked all the jobs and internships I took and a few of them are arguably better than FAANG (hft/unicorns), but when it came time to interview for other places, I had a much harder time getting past resume screens vs my friends who were from a FAANG company. Imo having a FAANG company on your resume provides flexibility. Also, FAANG jobs are just nice. You have a lot of creature comforts that will make your first few years out of college much easier (Good 401k matching, liquid stock, good benefits, plenty of locations to chose from, wide selection of teams, free food, etc). Ive been at "good" companies without many of these benefits, and while the work is interesting, your quality of life suffers greatly. Also eng talent is generally pretty good at FAANG from what I can tell. You have a lot of really senior people showing you the ropes, vs a startup which may be led by younger people who may be smart, but lack experience. If you are dead set on some career path that doesn't require you to be at a FAANG company (i.e you got a job somewhere and you are satisfied with being there for a while), then sure it may not matter, but for a general SWE, the flexibility, resume value, and scope going to a FAANG company gives you is very valuable. Note: I am using "FAANG" here to mean FAANG + Similar adjacent companies. Think Uber, Microsoft, Airbnb, Datadog, etc.
ZephyrBlu 4y ago
I'm not in a FAANG, but another quite large tech company. This has been a really good place for me to 'level up' so I don't quite understand why you would recommend non-FAANG companies, which presumably means a non-tech company? The timeline for reaching senior+ in FAANG is also likely to be a lot longer if you start from outside vs working up from inside.
- 01100011 4y ago
  I'm not sure why you assume non-FAANG means non-tech when you work at a non-FAANG tech company. It sounds like you're agreeing with me as you're having a good experience at a non-FAANG company :D
  - ZephyrBlu 4y ago
    Depending on the context, I often read FAANG to mean "a large tech company" rather than literally Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Google. E.g. Stripe, Uber, Square, Microsoft etc would count towards "FAANG". Do you think the environment at FAANG specifically is that different from other large tech companies?
    - 01100011 4y ago
      My guess is that the large tech companies in the bay area share certain characteristics, for better and for worse. Many factors are at play though. Do I think working for Intuitive Surgical is just like working for Apple? No, but in many cases I think you'd encounter similar issues. That said, there are certain companies that are held in higher esteem by many of the folks who care about such things, and those companies tend to attract people who value working for an esteemed company. I talked with another FAANG engineer one day who said they'd feel like a failure if they didn't move on to another FAANG, despite grinding away for years, being middle aged and unhappy, and burned out by the politics at work. Anyway, I think those 'esteemed' companies attract more aggressive and driven folks which changes the culture vs any other large tech co.
roland35 4y ago
I feel like it's a lot easier to avoid assholes at a bigger company. One bad coworker can ruin the entire experience at a startup because there's no avoiding them!!
briandear 4y ago
You can learn asshole skills anywhere.
squokko 4y ago
If you are at the highest level of SWE in a FAANG with very little work to get there, you are probably exceptionally talented, which makes your advice less actionable for most people.

fdgsdfogijq 4y ago

Being on the inside, these companies are really not innovating. Just optimizing existing platforms

beebmam 4y ago
I agree. But in my opinion, that's the perfect kind of company to start your software engineer career in.
01100011 4y ago
I'm not getting into that debate, but I'll say that the most important thing for a new engineer isn't being at an innovative company. It's just learning the ropes, making your first mistakes, fixing them, learning team skills, etc. Sure, you want to avoid the bureaucratic nightmares like the defense industry, but I think many SW shops will teach you a lot vs school.
- fdgsdfogijq 4y ago
  I bet you alot of the engineers at openAI doing impactful work are just a few years out of school, if that. Big tech is filled with bureaucrats
  - 01100011 4y ago
    Aren't a lot of those projects built on top of FANG outputs? I.e. pytorch, tensorflow, CUDA, AWS, etc?
    - fdgsdfogijq 4y ago
      Sure, but as a junior engineer on one of those teams, some senior engineer thats been there a decade will shoulder you out of the best learning opportunities. Also, that stuff was invented more than a decade ago in most cases. Very different companies back then
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

gretch 4y ago

To the GP: I'm FANG now, started my career at non-FANG. Largely I agree with this advice, but for a completely set of different reasons. In particular -> "Going to a FANG and learning toxic habits, like putting yourself above your team and thinking only of compensation/promotions, can make you an asshole for life." I think you'd be unwise to think that FANG will teach you toxic habits and putting yourself your team. Or if it happens, that other companies on average are better and FANG is the bottom of the barrel.

fsociety 4y ago

Strong disagree, going to FAANG or alternatively a larger company respected for engineering chops will open a lot of doors. It definitely did for me. Also the sore reality is assholes are everywhere, and smaller companies have less rail guards to prevent them from gaining authority in an org. Whereas at larger companies you have more leeway in moving teams and finding an org with wonderful people. That doesn’t mean a startup is a bad choice for a new grad, it can be the best choice for many. But I would not count out larger companies so quickly.

rimliu 4y ago
There are people who respect F (M) for engineering chops? Interesting. To me they more look like "that's how not to do things" than the opposite.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  It sounds impossible to characterize a bigco, which is like a trillion competing and independent duchies and fiefdoms, with any sort of sweeping statement about how good their engineers are.
  - sethhochberg 4y ago
    Not to mention the entire disciplines of engineering that really only exist at the megacorps - Meta is still on the relatively bleeding edge of datacenter design, both physical plant and networking.
- linkregister 4y ago
  The amount of recruiter spam increases by an order of magnitude once a FAANG-level technology company appears on one's resume. It has a dramatic change in the amount of technical interviews that are granted to an applicant.
  - Silhouette 4y ago
    At what kind of company? Looking from outside and in particular from outside the US the whole FAANG culture seems very strange. There is - or was - a huge amount of money available in compensation that seems almost completely disconnected from the value of an individual developer's contribution to the business or the level of useful skills and experience the developer has. And it seems there's this kind of clique effect where those who have worked in a FAANG or a high-profile startup are assumed by others who have worked at FAANGs or high-profile startups to be somehow better than everyone else. But IME once you're outside that bubble a more likely assumption is that ex-FAANG people will demand more than they're worth and won't necessarily be any more competent or productive than anyone else. And ex-multiple-FAANGs with rapid job hopping at the start of a career is a huge red flag.

nfRfqX5n 4y ago

I always thought the faang horror stories come from new grads, since there is so much operational stuff you have to navigate. Not sure I'd want to start my career there. Going in as a senior wasn't bad though.

durandal1 4y ago

You earlier described working at a "FANG:ish" company, do you actually work in M-FAANG? Where I work you get nowhere without convincing XF partners to do work for your area of responsibility, and if you come across as an asshole, they will find a reason to not do it. Assholes get held back in promos and this is clearly communicated in reviews.

actuator 4y ago

Wrong advice. If you want to be leveled up fast in a FAANG, you should start in one. I know of 4+ YOE people jumping one level per year, they are an exception but the argument is, it is faster if you are born into the culture, rather than if you adopt it.

endtime 4y ago
This is impossible at Google. Can probably be done at Meta, or at least could several years ago. I wouldn't paint with too broad a brush here.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  I got promoted twice in two years at Facebook, back in the day. Definitely possible. Mind you, my manager lated admitted that I was under leveled but the comp worked for me at the time.

boshalfoshal 4y ago

Disagree. Imo, you should be at a FAANG company at least once. I liked all the jobs and internships I took and a few of them are arguably better than FAANG (hft/unicorns), but when it came time to interview for other places, I had a much harder time getting past resume screens vs my friends who were from a FAANG company. Imo having a FAANG company on your resume provides flexibility. Also, FAANG jobs are just nice. You have a lot of creature comforts that will make your first few years out of college much easier (Good 401k matching, liquid stock, good benefits, plenty of locations to chose from, wide selection of teams, free food, etc). Ive been at "good" companies without many of these benefits, and while the work is interesting, your quality of life suffers greatly. Also eng talent is generally pretty good at FAANG from what I can tell. You have a lot of really senior people showing you the ropes, vs a startup which may be led by younger people who may be smart, but lack experience. If you are dead set on some career path that doesn't require you to be at a FAANG company (i.e you got a job somewhere and you are satisfied with being there for a while), then sure it may not matter, but for a general SWE, the flexibility, resume value, and scope going to a FAANG company gives you is very valuable. Note: I am using "FAANG" here to mean FAANG + Similar adjacent companies. Think Uber, Microsoft, Airbnb, Datadog, etc.

ZephyrBlu 4y ago

I'm not in a FAANG, but another quite large tech company. This has been a really good place for me to 'level up' so I don't quite understand why you would recommend non-FAANG companies, which presumably means a non-tech company? The timeline for reaching senior+ in FAANG is also likely to be a lot longer if you start from outside vs working up from inside.

01100011 4y ago
I'm not sure why you assume non-FAANG means non-tech when you work at a non-FAANG tech company. It sounds like you're agreeing with me as you're having a good experience at a non-FAANG company :D
- ZephyrBlu 4y ago
  Depending on the context, I often read FAANG to mean "a large tech company" rather than literally Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Google. E.g. Stripe, Uber, Square, Microsoft etc would count towards "FAANG". Do you think the environment at FAANG specifically is that different from other large tech companies?
  - 01100011 4y ago
    My guess is that the large tech companies in the bay area share certain characteristics, for better and for worse. Many factors are at play though. Do I think working for Intuitive Surgical is just like working for Apple? No, but in many cases I think you'd encounter similar issues. That said, there are certain companies that are held in higher esteem by many of the folks who care about such things, and those companies tend to attract people who value working for an esteemed company. I talked with another FAANG engineer one day who said they'd feel like a failure if they didn't move on to another FAANG, despite grinding away for years, being middle aged and unhappy, and burned out by the politics at work. Anyway, I think those 'esteemed' companies attract more aggressive and driven folks which changes the culture vs any other large tech co.

roland35 4y ago

I feel like it's a lot easier to avoid assholes at a bigger company. One bad coworker can ruin the entire experience at a startup because there's no avoiding them!!

briandear 4y ago

You can learn asshole skills anywhere.

squokko 4y ago

If you are at the highest level of SWE in a FAANG with very little work to get there, you are probably exceptionally talented, which makes your advice less actionable for most people.