5 ms·

No country other than your country of origin owes you a right to stay. It's not inhumane or something to have visa only for work and not for indefinite residen

by hsn915 4y ago

No country other than your country of origin owes you a right to stay. It's not inhumane or something to have visa only for work and not for indefinite residency. If the work visa was defacto a permanent residency visa, no one would give it and no one would get it.

AdamN 4y ago
Hopefully we can change that in the future - people have been displaced over the centuries (and worse) but what you're saying is such a 20th century phenomenon that I'd like to see us move forward to better structures.
- hsn915 4y ago
  Hopefully that does not change in the future. If anyone could just go anywhere that would be a terrible dystopian future.
  - the_af 4y ago
    Why?
    - mantas 4y ago
      There're many small countries where natives could be easily outnumbered by newcomers.
  - the_mar 4y ago
    Right fuck those people who want to live outside of the place they were born in. /s
    - mantas 4y ago
      No, let people in other places live as they're used to and don't get overrun and outpriced of their home.
      - the_mar 4y ago
        Your outrage is misplaced. I am an immigrant tech worker, I too can't afford shit in San Francisco. I do not think immigrants are the problem here
        mantas 4y ago
        SF is a problem is we'd consider any non-San Franciscans as immigrants. And, given size of US, it would be correct. I'm really sorry for the old San Franciscans of the old era. It sucks when your city becomes a magnet of big money.
        the_mar 4y ago
        Well, the opposite, as in your city falling in despair sure sucks more. People wanting to live in San Francisco aren’t the problem, housing red tape and nimbys are
- suddenclarity 4y ago
  How is it a 20th century phenomenon? In the past we had barely no movement in comparison with today and at least here you actually had to apply for permission to move away. The whole welfare system is based on the requirement that it only applies to a selected few and adults today support the elderly so they can retire under the assumption that children will pay the adults for their retirement. If you open up the welfare system for 7 billion people that haven't contributed, it will all collapse.
  - the_mar 4y ago
    Btw people on work visas have no access to welfare, despite paying taxes that fund the welfare just the same. Permanent residents have some access to welfare, but there isn’t a straightforward path from work visa to green card. Who is suggesting US welfare has to support 7 billion people?
    - suddenclarity 4y ago
      > Who is suggesting US welfare has to support 7 billion people? That's the result from advocating free movement or no borders considering stats such as 52% of Africa's youth wanting to relocate to Europe or US. Unless you dismantle the welfare state. But it's possible that I misunderstood what the person meant with the 20th century comment.
      - the_mar 4y ago
        No one is advocating for no borders here. Most people are saying that the time given to h1b visa holders to find a new job is too short. Opening US borders for a free-for-all would be of course a disaster. But even that is a bit of a stretch to say that entire world’s population would move to the US.
  - AdamN 4y ago
    > In the past we had barely no movement in comparison with today People used to be highly mobile (and continue to be). The Americas were settled by millions of Europeans and Africans before the United States even became a country. South Asians were moved to Africa during the colonial era en masse. Vikings settled all over Europe and even Istanbul. The Huns, Goths, Romans, were all on the move.
inertiatic 4y ago
And your country owes you why?
- mihaic 4y ago
  That's the general social contract that most people have as their mental model: "If I pay my taxes and do my part, my children will get the standard benefits of citizenship". Honestly, I'm not sure what use you see from asking this question.
  - lordnacho 4y ago
    It's part of the socratic method. It's reasonable to ask why your country of birth owes you anything. Keep in mind not every country gives you citizenship from birth, so it raises the question of whether what you're saying really is correct. I would suggest if someone has worked somewhere for a decent amount of time they should not be disposed of so easily as the person in the article.
    - hsn915 4y ago
      > It's part of the socratic method. But that question wasn't. It was bad faith "gotcha!" question.
      - lordnacho 4y ago
        I don't think so. The question is short but it illuminates an angle most people wouldn't think of. Or when they think of it, there's no satisfactory answer immediately apparent. There's why does any country owe you, and why does your country of origin in particular owe you.
  - the_af 4y ago
    I understand your overall point and agree with it, but let me state that "paying my taxes" is such an American, money-centered worldview. Your country owes you citizenship even if you don't pay your taxes. It may punish you in other ways, but not by taking away citizenship.
kiliantics 4y ago
What if there is a country which has had a strong influence over turning your country of origin into a place that is very difficult to live in?
hotpotamus 4y ago
If humans were merely fully replaceable units in the machinery that is a nation (and it seems that this is the goal of many of the elite), then that would make sense. But many humans actually form communities and welcome new residents in. Some of these newcomers become part of the community and even create new members.
the_gipsy 4y ago
Why even your country of origin? Okay, they can't just pick another country and shove people there, that's not fair and no country would accept that, but they could maybe dump unwanted people in the ocean. Just a thought.
- hsn915 4y ago
  Because humans are cooperative creatures, and if a society can't establish cooperation between its members, chaos will ensue.
unmole 4y ago
Except for the fact that except for Indians, everyone else can get a green card after a few years on a H1-B.
krisoft 4y ago
> It's not inhumane or something to have visa only for work and not for indefinite residency. It is in fact inhumane. It is also "or something" if you mean "unethical" by that. The purpose of the arrangement is to obtain easy to exploit workforce to undercut the one locally available. The fact that it is precarious and exploitative is not an accident, but the goal.
- hsn915 4y ago
  By your characterization of the problem, the solution would seem to be to abolish work visas all together, and not allow any foriegners to stay for mere work.
the_mar 4y ago
Most countries have a path to permanent residency after 5 years of gainful employment in the said country. In the us it is a quota based on your nationality or a lottery system. Why should it matter how many other people from X country applied for a GC that year if I worked in the US for 10 years and paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes?

by hsn915 4y ago

AdamN 4y ago

Hopefully we can change that in the future - people have been displaced over the centuries (and worse) but what you're saying is such a 20th century phenomenon that I'd like to see us move forward to better structures.

hsn915 4y ago
Hopefully that does not change in the future. If anyone could just go anywhere that would be a terrible dystopian future.
- the_af 4y ago
  Why?
  - mantas 4y ago
    There're many small countries where natives could be easily outnumbered by newcomers.
- the_mar 4y ago
  Right fuck those people who want to live outside of the place they were born in. /s
  - mantas 4y ago
    No, let people in other places live as they're used to and don't get overrun and outpriced of their home.
    - the_mar 4y ago
      Your outrage is misplaced. I am an immigrant tech worker, I too can't afford shit in San Francisco. I do not think immigrants are the problem here
      - mantas 4y ago
        SF is a problem is we'd consider any non-San Franciscans as immigrants. And, given size of US, it would be correct. I'm really sorry for the old San Franciscans of the old era. It sucks when your city becomes a magnet of big money.
        the_mar 4y ago
        Well, the opposite, as in your city falling in despair sure sucks more. People wanting to live in San Francisco aren’t the problem, housing red tape and nimbys are
suddenclarity 4y ago
How is it a 20th century phenomenon? In the past we had barely no movement in comparison with today and at least here you actually had to apply for permission to move away. The whole welfare system is based on the requirement that it only applies to a selected few and adults today support the elderly so they can retire under the assumption that children will pay the adults for their retirement. If you open up the welfare system for 7 billion people that haven't contributed, it will all collapse.
- the_mar 4y ago
  Btw people on work visas have no access to welfare, despite paying taxes that fund the welfare just the same. Permanent residents have some access to welfare, but there isn’t a straightforward path from work visa to green card. Who is suggesting US welfare has to support 7 billion people?
  - suddenclarity 4y ago
    > Who is suggesting US welfare has to support 7 billion people? That's the result from advocating free movement or no borders considering stats such as 52% of Africa's youth wanting to relocate to Europe or US. Unless you dismantle the welfare state. But it's possible that I misunderstood what the person meant with the 20th century comment.
    - the_mar 4y ago
      No one is advocating for no borders here. Most people are saying that the time given to h1b visa holders to find a new job is too short. Opening US borders for a free-for-all would be of course a disaster. But even that is a bit of a stretch to say that entire world’s population would move to the US.
- AdamN 4y ago
  > In the past we had barely no movement in comparison with today People used to be highly mobile (and continue to be). The Americas were settled by millions of Europeans and Africans before the United States even became a country. South Asians were moved to Africa during the colonial era en masse. Vikings settled all over Europe and even Istanbul. The Huns, Goths, Romans, were all on the move.

inertiatic 4y ago

And your country owes you why?

mihaic 4y ago
That's the general social contract that most people have as their mental model: "If I pay my taxes and do my part, my children will get the standard benefits of citizenship". Honestly, I'm not sure what use you see from asking this question.
- lordnacho 4y ago
  It's part of the socratic method. It's reasonable to ask why your country of birth owes you anything. Keep in mind not every country gives you citizenship from birth, so it raises the question of whether what you're saying really is correct. I would suggest if someone has worked somewhere for a decent amount of time they should not be disposed of so easily as the person in the article.
  - hsn915 4y ago
    > It's part of the socratic method. But that question wasn't. It was bad faith "gotcha!" question.
    - lordnacho 4y ago
      I don't think so. The question is short but it illuminates an angle most people wouldn't think of. Or when they think of it, there's no satisfactory answer immediately apparent. There's why does any country owe you, and why does your country of origin in particular owe you.
- the_af 4y ago
  I understand your overall point and agree with it, but let me state that "paying my taxes" is such an American, money-centered worldview. Your country owes you citizenship even if you don't pay your taxes. It may punish you in other ways, but not by taking away citizenship.

kiliantics 4y ago

What if there is a country which has had a strong influence over turning your country of origin into a place that is very difficult to live in?

hotpotamus 4y ago

If humans were merely fully replaceable units in the machinery that is a nation (and it seems that this is the goal of many of the elite), then that would make sense. But many humans actually form communities and welcome new residents in. Some of these newcomers become part of the community and even create new members.

the_gipsy 4y ago

Why even your country of origin? Okay, they can't just pick another country and shove people there, that's not fair and no country would accept that, but they could maybe dump unwanted people in the ocean. Just a thought.

hsn915 4y ago
Because humans are cooperative creatures, and if a society can't establish cooperation between its members, chaos will ensue.

unmole 4y ago

Except for the fact that except for Indians, everyone else can get a green card after a few years on a H1-B.

krisoft 4y ago

> It's not inhumane or something to have visa only for work and not for indefinite residency. It is in fact inhumane. It is also "or something" if you mean "unethical" by that. The purpose of the arrangement is to obtain easy to exploit workforce to undercut the one locally available. The fact that it is precarious and exploitative is not an accident, but the goal.

hsn915 4y ago
By your characterization of the problem, the solution would seem to be to abolish work visas all together, and not allow any foriegners to stay for mere work.

the_mar 4y ago

Most countries have a path to permanent residency after 5 years of gainful employment in the said country. In the us it is a quota based on your nationality or a lottery system. Why should it matter how many other people from X country applied for a GC that year if I worked in the US for 10 years and paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes?