8 ms·

Russian Assets Reportedly Seized at Baikonur Cosmodrome by Kazakh Authorities

212 points by taubek 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
idontwantthis 4y ago
Is this real or not? Many articles all pointing to this domain which is currently down.
- vbezhenar 4y ago
  Sources are sketchy. Those sources I've found report that Kazakhstani bailiffs put an arrest to Russian property (basically they can't move it out of the country) and forbade some manager to leave country as well. I'm not sure if English meaning of word seizure includes those actions, I thought that seizure is more like expropriation and that's not what happening here. I think that's not serious. It's either some politics or just bureaucracy. While Kazakhstan is not fully supporting Russia, turning away from it seems like an economic suicide.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    But also some "politics" would be interesting. Did Kazakhstan do something similar previously? Is this a new development?
    - vbezhenar 4y ago
      Since Tokayev became a president, IMO relations between Russia and Kazakhstan are getting worse. Of course especially after invasion. But Kazakhstan and Russia are far from enemies, at least for the time being. They have deep economic ties. As I see it, Kazakhstan tries to build more independent economy but it's not really easy to do so, when the only real alternative is China which is completely foreign and many Kazakhs are afraid of Chinese invasion (not military, but economical, buying land and so on). And of course it's kind of hard to defend huge country with the population of 18 million. So military alliance with strong neighbour is kind of necessary in this situation and Russia provides one.
  - vinaypai 4y ago
    > turning away from it seems like an economic suicide On the other hand, not turning away from it might be literal suicide.
    - labster 4y ago
      Nah, we in NATO don’t blame landlocked countries with small economies for having, well, ambiguous relations with nearby Russia. It’s the places that have a choice, like Serbia, India, and Hungary, that are at risk of moving themselves onto our list of geopolitical rivals.
      - outintheboonies 4y ago
        Just checked the GDPs of Serbia v Kazakhstan v Hungary. Serbia: 63.08 billion USD (2021) Kazakhstan: 197.1 billion USD (2021) Hungary: 181.8 billion USD (2021) Per google, sources include World Bank.
        qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
        Hungary is doing alot of things right, not politically, but economically its becoming one of the industrial powerhouses of the EU.
      - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
        Oh, come on. The only reason you have not destroyed our economy with sanctions yet is because your oil companies have deep investments in our oil industry in western parts of the country. Additionally we cover about 50% of the world's uranium supply. Even before the war started, our khan put more than 300 people in the ground to preserve his rule (many of them random women and children; and that's according to official sources whom everyone considers to be seriously biased), and your politicians looked the other way because it didn't tip the scales far enough.
  - toyg 4y ago
    > While Kazakhstan is not fully supporting Russia, turning away from it seems like an economic suicide. Obviously they're not going to cut all ties, but it's a good time for Kazakhs (or any other ex-Soviet population still in the Russian orbit) to renegotiate contracts. The bear is in a position of weakness both on diplomatic, economic, and military terms.
  - mlindner 4y ago
    Possibly that's a "lien" then rather than seizure? > A claim upon a part of another's property that arises because of an unpaid debt related to that property and that operates as an encumbrance on the property until the debt is satisfied.
  - baybal2 4y ago
    [dead]
  - justsomehnguy 4y ago
    The original "news" are from some Telegram channel from Mar 4. Almost everywhere there is an absolutely identical text, without sources. I couldn't find anything remotely similar in .kz
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    While Kazakhstan is not fully supporting Russia, turning away from it seems like an economic suicide. How so? 60% of the Kazahk economy is from oil and gas.† It's not like it's exporting that stuff to Russia. † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan#/media/File:Kazakhstan_Product_Exports_(2019).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan#/media/File:Kazakhs...
    - culebron21 4y ago
      but 40% of import is. I live in KZ and in a recent talk my fellow Russian expats mentioned this topic. I checked what items in my rented apartment are made in Russia. Except clothes, shoes and computer devices and furniture, which is produced locally, everything in the kitchen is from Russia: tea, porriges, tools (like plastic funnel, which is even from Moscow!), even a can of salt is from there. Just 2-3 were not from RU. For example, IKEA stores in Russia ordered furniture by their designs from local makers. This was imported in KZ. Now they're gone, and IKEA items are either brought from Turkey, or the Russian factories started making something roughly similar, but it's not branded/quality controlled. Some imports (from China or even Turkey) went via Russian logistics as well, and only the last year started to be re-routed.
  - enkid 4y ago
    Kazakhstan's economy is dominated by the oil and gas industry. If anything, it competes with Russia economically. As it develops alternative transportation networks, economic independence from Russia will benefit it, not harm it.
    - vbezhenar 4y ago
      As far as I know, major (overwhelming?) part of Kazakhstan oil and gas is transported via Russian pipes. They were used as a tool to press on Kazakhstan in the past. Yes, alternative networks are being developed, but that takes a lot of time.
  - VincentEvans 4y ago
    Kazakhstan has been steadily moving into China’s political orbit where it will be safe from any Russian retaliation.
monocasa 4y ago
https://archive.ph/gYvSv https://archive.ph/gYvSv
arcticbull 4y ago
I've been wanting to visit Baikonur for years, that and the nuclear testing facility at Semipalatinsk. I suspect the Baikonur portion of the trip will have to wait. [1, 2] The land at Baikonur itself is leased to the Russians who have to okay tourist visits and at this point I suspect that's not easy especially given at least the title of the article above (which for me is not loading). [1] https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2021/oct/22/across-kazakhstan-by-rail-a-photo-essay https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2021/oct/22/across-kazakh... [2] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/01/28/nuclear-bombs-weapons-soviet-union-russia-kazakhstan-polygon-semipalatinsk/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/01/28/nuclear-bombs-weapons-s...
amq 4y ago
Original source: https://kz24.news/news/ekonomika/arest-rossiyskogo-imuschestva-na-baykonure-nevesomost-dlya-proekta-soyuz-5.html https://kz24.news/news/ekonomika/arest-rossiyskogo-imuschest... Source on the Russian side: https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2023/03/13/kazahstan-arestoval-imuschestvo-roskosmosa-a36506 https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2023/03/13/kazahstan-arestoval-im...
- somenameforme 4y ago
  Auto translation of the original source: --- The Bailiffs' Service of the Republic of Kazakhstan informs that the property of TsENKI (Center for the Operation of Ground-based Space Infrastructure), located in Kazakhstan, has been seized. The company, which is a subsidiary of the state-owned Roscosmos, is prohibited from withdrawing material assets and assets from Kazakhstan. The travel ban has also been extended to the head of the unit - he cannot leave Kazakhstan until the end of investigative actions. The ban on the use of resources and financial transactions, as well as the instability of negotiating positions in general, slows down the priority area of work at Baikonur — the construction of a new launch pad for the Soyuz-5 rocket. Such a kind of "weightlessness" can turn into a financial "black hole" — 62 billion rubles were spent on the rocket, which may not fly anywhere due to the lack of a launch pad. The joint project "Baiterek" can also, apparently, put an end to, as well as to the whole idea of replacing the Ukrainian "Zenit" with its own development. The main reason for such actions, many call "incorrect behavior" and harsh statements of the new head of Roscosmos, Yuri Borisov. Back in 2022, when it came to postponing the construction period for six months, he criticized a lot of delays in launching the launch pad, in particular, the Minister of Communications of the Republic of Kazakhstan Bagdat Musin, who is engaged in space in Kazakhstan. Bagdat Musin, for his part, calls Yuri Borisov's criticism a "diplomatic miscalculation." Our sources explained that Mr. Musin uses the situation for his own PR. It is obvious that he has quite good skills of "undercover diplomacy". This is evidenced by his rapid growth on the career ladder, as well as a tendency to excessive theatrical attacks. Our people love politicians who show Russia their independence, and Musin is happy to play the independence card for the public once again. Despite the fact that cooperation in the field of space is beneficial for both countries, it is not clear why Bagdat Batyrbekovich is trying to drive a wedge between Tokayev and Putin. Moreover, he uses various methods to denigrate Yuri Borisov. Sources of kz4. news express concerns that the actions of our minister may really lead to disagreements, which will primarily affect our economy and the development of the research base. The actions of officials can turn into a serious blow to the entire bilateral space and research program. There is still no substitute for Baikonur, which has a unique geographical location. Maybe officials should calm down their personal ambitions in such a turbulent time, or go to the aggravation of the conflict. Please write in the comments what you think about this issue.
hadlock 4y ago
This apparently is a building/warehouse valued under $30 million that was under construction and never completed, never paid for. It is inside the boundary line of the cosmodrome which makes it notable, but this does not impact space operations for Russia directly. However it's not like they just seized a Soyuz rocket or crates of rocket engines, or even a train load of rocket fuel and they're holding it in lieu of payment now. Kazakhstan in recent days has been on record saying that they intend to take small steps towards further independence from Russia.
- cozzyd 4y ago
  Very nice. I guess Russia's lease on Baikonur is until 2050. I wonder what happens if it's not renewed...
  - fredoralive 4y ago
    Russia has now built a launch site inside Russia (Vostochny Cosmodrome), in its far east. Although they don't seem to be actually using it that much at the moment, they wouldn't be cut off from space.
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      I think the trajectories from there are nowhere as good as Baikonur
      - smcin 4y ago
        Baikonur is 45.62° N, 63.31° E Vostochny Cosmodrome, (Tsiolkovsky, Amur Oblast) is 51.85° N, 128.35° E. 550 miles west of Sakhalin Island and the Sea of Japan.
        pestatije 4y ago
        51° N is like London...not the best latitude for launching to space
qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
Thats what happens, when all you got to hold the band together is terror instead of soft power. Everyone just quits at the first sign of weakness.
- qsort 4y ago
  I was thinking about the same thing a few days ago. One of the most interesting takeaways from this war is how soft power is very underrated, and lack of any soft power whatsoever is one of the reasons behind Russia's problems.
  - pk-protect-ai 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - jnsaff2 4y ago
      I'm not saying you are wrong but why stop here? Why are the ruling guys stupid? Why do stupid guys get to rule? I also am not sure stupidity is binary or all encompassing. I think they must be doing something right to be rulers to a country. Why do russian citizen take it? Maybe that's where stupid is the final answer, but maybe not. As for international relations, I am more and more coming to the conclusion that everyone tries to project their own logic to others and being mostly wrong about it. russia does not work according to the logic that France and Germany want to project onto it. China does not work according to the logic US and Germany want to project onto it. US and EU don't work according to the logic China and russia want to project onto it. Ukraine does not work like EU, US and muscovy project their logic onto it. etc etc etc
      - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
        This seems to be a weakspot of alot of ideological groups in the west(left/right) but also in the east(ccp), the assumption that one can just "sing" a version of reality into beeing by loudness. What is usually archieved is a placation act, by which the lower status parties involved pretends to kotau, but then gets on with its own life in its own style, with the calmed priesthood. Its a very strange state of affairs. For objective, measurable scientific reality to be experienced, this process is completely orthogonal. Its better to know what is, even if unpleasant or stressfull, then only to find out at the breaking point?
SSLy 4y ago
At the very least, this is KZ testing waters how much they can piss of RU.
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
This actually sounds more like a "Mechanics' Lien" type of situation, as opposed to some kind of political intrigue.
nikolay 4y ago
I guess the story got deleted as it was a fake!

212 points by taubek 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

idontwantthis 4y ago

Is this real or not? Many articles all pointing to this domain which is currently down.

vbezhenar 4y ago
Sources are sketchy. Those sources I've found report that Kazakhstani bailiffs put an arrest to Russian property (basically they can't move it out of the country) and forbade some manager to leave country as well. I'm not sure if English meaning of word seizure includes those actions, I thought that seizure is more like expropriation and that's not what happening here. I think that's not serious. It's either some politics or just bureaucracy. While Kazakhstan is not fully supporting Russia, turning away from it seems like an economic suicide.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  But also some "politics" would be interesting. Did Kazakhstan do something similar previously? Is this a new development?
  - vbezhenar 4y ago
    Since Tokayev became a president, IMO relations between Russia and Kazakhstan are getting worse. Of course especially after invasion. But Kazakhstan and Russia are far from enemies, at least for the time being. They have deep economic ties. As I see it, Kazakhstan tries to build more independent economy but it's not really easy to do so, when the only real alternative is China which is completely foreign and many Kazakhs are afraid of Chinese invasion (not military, but economical, buying land and so on). And of course it's kind of hard to defend huge country with the population of 18 million. So military alliance with strong neighbour is kind of necessary in this situation and Russia provides one.
- vinaypai 4y ago
  > turning away from it seems like an economic suicide On the other hand, not turning away from it might be literal suicide.
  - labster 4y ago
    Nah, we in NATO don’t blame landlocked countries with small economies for having, well, ambiguous relations with nearby Russia. It’s the places that have a choice, like Serbia, India, and Hungary, that are at risk of moving themselves onto our list of geopolitical rivals.
    - outintheboonies 4y ago
      Just checked the GDPs of Serbia v Kazakhstan v Hungary. Serbia: 63.08 billion USD (2021) Kazakhstan: 197.1 billion USD (2021) Hungary: 181.8 billion USD (2021) Per google, sources include World Bank.
      - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
        Hungary is doing alot of things right, not politically, but economically its becoming one of the industrial powerhouses of the EU.
    - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
      Oh, come on. The only reason you have not destroyed our economy with sanctions yet is because your oil companies have deep investments in our oil industry in western parts of the country. Additionally we cover about 50% of the world's uranium supply. Even before the war started, our khan put more than 300 people in the ground to preserve his rule (many of them random women and children; and that's according to official sources whom everyone considers to be seriously biased), and your politicians looked the other way because it didn't tip the scales far enough.
- toyg 4y ago
  > While Kazakhstan is not fully supporting Russia, turning away from it seems like an economic suicide. Obviously they're not going to cut all ties, but it's a good time for Kazakhs (or any other ex-Soviet population still in the Russian orbit) to renegotiate contracts. The bear is in a position of weakness both on diplomatic, economic, and military terms.
- mlindner 4y ago
  Possibly that's a "lien" then rather than seizure? > A claim upon a part of another's property that arises because of an unpaid debt related to that property and that operates as an encumbrance on the property until the debt is satisfied.
- baybal2 4y ago
  [dead]
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  The original "news" are from some Telegram channel from Mar 4. Almost everywhere there is an absolutely identical text, without sources. I couldn't find anything remotely similar in .kz
- reaperducer 4y ago
  While Kazakhstan is not fully supporting Russia, turning away from it seems like an economic suicide. How so? 60% of the Kazahk economy is from oil and gas.† It's not like it's exporting that stuff to Russia. † https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan#/media/File:Kazakhstan_Product_Exports_(2019).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakhstan#/media/File:Kazakhs...
  - culebron21 4y ago
    but 40% of import is. I live in KZ and in a recent talk my fellow Russian expats mentioned this topic. I checked what items in my rented apartment are made in Russia. Except clothes, shoes and computer devices and furniture, which is produced locally, everything in the kitchen is from Russia: tea, porriges, tools (like plastic funnel, which is even from Moscow!), even a can of salt is from there. Just 2-3 were not from RU. For example, IKEA stores in Russia ordered furniture by their designs from local makers. This was imported in KZ. Now they're gone, and IKEA items are either brought from Turkey, or the Russian factories started making something roughly similar, but it's not branded/quality controlled. Some imports (from China or even Turkey) went via Russian logistics as well, and only the last year started to be re-routed.
- enkid 4y ago
  Kazakhstan's economy is dominated by the oil and gas industry. If anything, it competes with Russia economically. As it develops alternative transportation networks, economic independence from Russia will benefit it, not harm it.
  - vbezhenar 4y ago
    As far as I know, major (overwhelming?) part of Kazakhstan oil and gas is transported via Russian pipes. They were used as a tool to press on Kazakhstan in the past. Yes, alternative networks are being developed, but that takes a lot of time.
- VincentEvans 4y ago
  Kazakhstan has been steadily moving into China’s political orbit where it will be safe from any Russian retaliation.

monocasa 4y ago

https://archive.ph/gYvSv https://archive.ph/gYvSv

arcticbull 4y ago

I've been wanting to visit Baikonur for years, that and the nuclear testing facility at Semipalatinsk. I suspect the Baikonur portion of the trip will have to wait. [1, 2] The land at Baikonur itself is leased to the Russians who have to okay tourist visits and at this point I suspect that's not easy especially given at least the title of the article above (which for me is not loading). [1] https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2021/oct/22/across-kazakhstan-by-rail-a-photo-essay https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2021/oct/22/across-kazakh... [2] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/01/28/nuclear-bombs-weapons-soviet-union-russia-kazakhstan-polygon-semipalatinsk/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/01/28/nuclear-bombs-weapons-s...

amq 4y ago

Original source: https://kz24.news/news/ekonomika/arest-rossiyskogo-imuschestva-na-baykonure-nevesomost-dlya-proekta-soyuz-5.html https://kz24.news/news/ekonomika/arest-rossiyskogo-imuschest... Source on the Russian side: https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2023/03/13/kazahstan-arestoval-imuschestvo-roskosmosa-a36506 https://www.moscowtimes.ru/2023/03/13/kazahstan-arestoval-im...

somenameforme 4y ago
Auto translation of the original source: --- The Bailiffs' Service of the Republic of Kazakhstan informs that the property of TsENKI (Center for the Operation of Ground-based Space Infrastructure), located in Kazakhstan, has been seized. The company, which is a subsidiary of the state-owned Roscosmos, is prohibited from withdrawing material assets and assets from Kazakhstan. The travel ban has also been extended to the head of the unit - he cannot leave Kazakhstan until the end of investigative actions. The ban on the use of resources and financial transactions, as well as the instability of negotiating positions in general, slows down the priority area of work at Baikonur — the construction of a new launch pad for the Soyuz-5 rocket. Such a kind of "weightlessness" can turn into a financial "black hole" — 62 billion rubles were spent on the rocket, which may not fly anywhere due to the lack of a launch pad. The joint project "Baiterek" can also, apparently, put an end to, as well as to the whole idea of replacing the Ukrainian "Zenit" with its own development. The main reason for such actions, many call "incorrect behavior" and harsh statements of the new head of Roscosmos, Yuri Borisov. Back in 2022, when it came to postponing the construction period for six months, he criticized a lot of delays in launching the launch pad, in particular, the Minister of Communications of the Republic of Kazakhstan Bagdat Musin, who is engaged in space in Kazakhstan. Bagdat Musin, for his part, calls Yuri Borisov's criticism a "diplomatic miscalculation." Our sources explained that Mr. Musin uses the situation for his own PR. It is obvious that he has quite good skills of "undercover diplomacy". This is evidenced by his rapid growth on the career ladder, as well as a tendency to excessive theatrical attacks. Our people love politicians who show Russia their independence, and Musin is happy to play the independence card for the public once again. Despite the fact that cooperation in the field of space is beneficial for both countries, it is not clear why Bagdat Batyrbekovich is trying to drive a wedge between Tokayev and Putin. Moreover, he uses various methods to denigrate Yuri Borisov. Sources of kz4. news express concerns that the actions of our minister may really lead to disagreements, which will primarily affect our economy and the development of the research base. The actions of officials can turn into a serious blow to the entire bilateral space and research program. There is still no substitute for Baikonur, which has a unique geographical location. Maybe officials should calm down their personal ambitions in such a turbulent time, or go to the aggravation of the conflict. Please write in the comments what you think about this issue.

hadlock 4y ago

This apparently is a building/warehouse valued under $30 million that was under construction and never completed, never paid for. It is inside the boundary line of the cosmodrome which makes it notable, but this does not impact space operations for Russia directly. However it's not like they just seized a Soyuz rocket or crates of rocket engines, or even a train load of rocket fuel and they're holding it in lieu of payment now. Kazakhstan in recent days has been on record saying that they intend to take small steps towards further independence from Russia.

cozzyd 4y ago
Very nice. I guess Russia's lease on Baikonur is until 2050. I wonder what happens if it's not renewed...
- fredoralive 4y ago
  Russia has now built a launch site inside Russia (Vostochny Cosmodrome), in its far east. Although they don't seem to be actually using it that much at the moment, they wouldn't be cut off from space.
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    I think the trajectories from there are nowhere as good as Baikonur
    - smcin 4y ago
      Baikonur is 45.62° N, 63.31° E Vostochny Cosmodrome, (Tsiolkovsky, Amur Oblast) is 51.85° N, 128.35° E. 550 miles west of Sakhalin Island and the Sea of Japan.
      - pestatije 4y ago
        51° N is like London...not the best latitude for launching to space

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago

Thats what happens, when all you got to hold the band together is terror instead of soft power. Everyone just quits at the first sign of weakness.

qsort 4y ago
I was thinking about the same thing a few days ago. One of the most interesting takeaways from this war is how soft power is very underrated, and lack of any soft power whatsoever is one of the reasons behind Russia's problems.
- pk-protect-ai 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - jnsaff2 4y ago
    I'm not saying you are wrong but why stop here? Why are the ruling guys stupid? Why do stupid guys get to rule? I also am not sure stupidity is binary or all encompassing. I think they must be doing something right to be rulers to a country. Why do russian citizen take it? Maybe that's where stupid is the final answer, but maybe not. As for international relations, I am more and more coming to the conclusion that everyone tries to project their own logic to others and being mostly wrong about it. russia does not work according to the logic that France and Germany want to project onto it. China does not work according to the logic US and Germany want to project onto it. US and EU don't work according to the logic China and russia want to project onto it. Ukraine does not work like EU, US and muscovy project their logic onto it. etc etc etc
    - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
      This seems to be a weakspot of alot of ideological groups in the west(left/right) but also in the east(ccp), the assumption that one can just "sing" a version of reality into beeing by loudness. What is usually archieved is a placation act, by which the lower status parties involved pretends to kotau, but then gets on with its own life in its own style, with the calmed priesthood. Its a very strange state of affairs. For objective, measurable scientific reality to be experienced, this process is completely orthogonal. Its better to know what is, even if unpleasant or stressfull, then only to find out at the breaking point?

SSLy 4y ago

At the very least, this is KZ testing waters how much they can piss of RU.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

This actually sounds more like a "Mechanics' Lien" type of situation, as opposed to some kind of political intrigue.

nikolay 4y ago

I guess the story got deleted as it was a fake!