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What is this phenomenon -- is it the "bystander effect" or something else? Pretty much everyone knows that the LA Sheriff's Department has been heavily infiltr
by empathy_m 4y ago
What is this phenomenon -- is it the "bystander effect" or something else?
Pretty much everyone knows that the LA Sheriff's Department has been heavily infiltrated by gangs like the Compton Executioners. The phenomenon is extensively well-documented in the press and it even has a Wikipedia entry.
But … no one cares?
The federal government's Department of Justice just ignores it? ( https://raskin.house.gov/2022/2/chairman-raskin-rep-gomez-urge-doj-to-investigate-deputy-gangs-within-the-la-county-sheriff-s-department https://raskin.house.gov/2022/2/chairman-raskin-rep-gomez-ur... )
At the state and county level, people just kind of ignore it?
And individuals can't do much about it, since after all the state has a monopoly on violence?
I mentioned the deputy gangs to a family member a while back and they were baffled that nobody is doing anything about it. But who would?
What is the word for "assuming someone else is going to do something about that, but there is no one"?
- gonzo41 4y agoThe federal state has a bigger monopoly on violence. You think the FBI would step in?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> everyone knows that the LA Sheriff's Department has been heavily infiltrated by gangs like the Compton Executioners Would note that this isn’t infiltration by street gangs as much as deputies forming gangs. > state and county level, people just kind of ignore it I am from the Bay Area. This is the first I’m hearing about it. I do wish we had a more neutral source than the Rolling Stone.
- macNchz 4y ago> I do wish we had a more neutral source than the Rolling Stone. The wikipedia article on this cites several reputable looking sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LASD_deputy_gangs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LASD_deputy_gangs
- starkparker 4y agoDefine "neutral" and I can find one, because they've been reported on and named publicly for 50 years. Here's a 50-page summary from Loyola Law School: https://lmu.app.box.com/s/uci2ir4mkpudtvvfp7z8iu4kv1gre1dj https://lmu.app.box.com/s/uci2ir4mkpudtvvfp7z8iu4kv1gre1dj
- JumpCrisscross 4y agoThis is a better source. It also shows these cliques are on a spectrum from over-the-top comradery to violent gang behaviour.
- yboris 4y agoConsider the Media Bias Chart https://adfontesmedia.com/gallery/ https://adfontesmedia.com/gallery/ You can see that Rolling Stone skews left and is lower than the peak of reliability.
- ashwagary 4y agoThere are ex-members of that police department giving video interviews about the Executioners gang threatening and killing innocent people. I dont understand how you can claim media bias is at the core of this story.
- yboris 4y agoThis is not my claim. I am replying to someone who said above > Define "neutral" and I can find one I think I misunderstood their comment to say "I don't understand why you are claiming Rolling Stone is not neutral". Sorry.
- silisili 4y agoThanks for the link. That largely matches my perceptions, so it at least passes my smell test. That said, I find it rather odd the absolute highest quality news achievable is...ABC15 in Arizona. Kinda feel they should leave local stations off altogether.
- 4y ago
- kodah 4y ago> The report identifies at “least a half dozen” active gangs and cliques — and names them: the Executioners, the Banditos, the Regulators, the Spartans, the Gladiators, the Cowboys, and the Reapers. This list isn't exhaustive but many of these are civilian gangs, so it's probably a case of both.
- aerostable_slug 4y agoThe law enforcement Banditos are not affiliated with the outlaw-motorcycle-centric gang of the same name. A Sheriff's "Bandito" might earn his ink by shooting a 1% "Bandito". There are of course corrupt members of law enforcement who collaborate with organized crime for various nefarious purposes, but the in-department gangs are a distinct issue.
- sli 4y agoI know what you're saying, but it needs to be stated that police are also civilians.
- the_lonely_road 4y agoI googled civilian and the dictionary response Google presented disagrees with you. I don't have an opinion on the topic just pointing it out.
- kodah 4y agohttps://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian It specifically mentions armed services, police, and firefighters are not civilians.
- true_religion 4y agoI’m more surprised that firefighters aren’t civilians, but EMTs are. Its not a blanket definition for all emergency services.
- 4y ago
- effingwewt 4y agoYou should read the Wikipedia entry[1]. It very much is gangs infiltrating LAPD and SO. On top of that, they also have their own cliques or gangs that form within. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LASD_deputy_gangs https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LASD_deputy_gangs
- cptcobalt 4y agoinstitutional corruption so transparent that there's a well-sourced wikipedia page
- mint2 4y agoLA times has been reporting on the problem deputy gangs for years. The new part in this article is how high up their members are but it’s also captain obvious reporting as the gang members have had decades to make it up there. Still good for it to be explicitly called out. I haven’t seen any reports in Bay Area papers but it’s been reported on in LA. It’s been local news. Similarly Californian don’t hear about >90% of the scandals in Chicago.
- Balgair 4y ago> This is the first I’m hearing about it. The corruption in southland policing departments is absolutely nothing new. Rampart comes easily to mind here, but the list is unfortunately a long one and wikipedia has many documented examples. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal Rampart, for instance, was such a large media issue that they even made a movie about it. Not a small one either: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1640548/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1640548/ EDIT: Dorner should also ring a lot of bells too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_a...
- tstrimple 4y agoI need to get off the internet. I thought the rampart scandal was about Woody Harrelson's disastrous AMA on Reddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/p9a1v/im_woody_harrelson_ama/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/p9a1v/im_woody_harrel...
- voltaireodactyl 4y agoThey’re related — the AMA was the scandal around the PR for the movie based on the scandal ;)
- thtmnisamnstr 4y agoYou've probably heard about this before and didn't realize it. Did you watch Training Day? That whole movie was centered around the leader of a cop gang.
- valdiorn 4y agoDen of Thieves as well. In that movie they're actually doing their job as police but they're clearly a gang within the police force who routinely break the law and abuse their position for personal gain. They even very clearly describe themselves as a gang in one scene.
- inconceivable 4y ago'the shield' is a TV show about this from the 2000s era. it probably doesn't hold up very well today but at the time it was pretty groundbreaking.
- hutzlibu 4y ago"This is the first I’m hearing about it. I do wish we had a more neutral source than the Rolling Stone." How about that outstanding episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Resources_Against_Street_Hoodlums https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Resources_Against_St... Well documented and was the base for "GTA San Andreas" and "Training Day". And even though it has been 20 years now, the problem seems far from solved.
- teachrdan 4y agoIf you're from the Bay Area, you may want to read "The Riders Come out at Night," about a gang within the Oakland Police Department. (and more generally about organized misconduct by the OPD in recent history) https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Riders-Come-Out-at-Night/Ali-Winston/9781982168599 https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Riders-Come-Out-a...
- t-3 4y agoJust an aside, as I don't live in CA and haven't followed the current scandal, but you should take it as a matter of fact that police departments in all major cities of the US have been formally and informally infiltrated by street gangs. For the past 10-20 years all major orgs have reoriented from physical control towards establishing political and social influence and co-opting powerful antagonistic organizations is a big part of that.
- skissane 4y agoHere in Australia - I’ve heard of police corruption, but never heard of corrupt police forming a gang. I can’t remember hearing anything about that in the UK or New Zealand or Canada either. Is this another one of those “only in America” things? Well, I’m sure not only in America-a lot of developing countries I wouldn’t be surprised if such things existed too-but not the countries the US would want to be compared to
- AwaAwa 4y ago> never heard of corrupt police forming a gang. I can’t remember hearing anything about that in the UK or New Zealand or Canada either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I can certainly speak to that effect as a Canadian aware of at least one similar 'police gang'
- skissane 4y ago> I can certainly speak to that effect as a Canadian aware of at least one similar 'police gang' What’s it called? Where is it?
- oldskewlcool 4y agoYork Regional Police, for one. https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/02/24/massive-gta-mafia-bust-collapses-defence-says-york-police-accessed-lawyers-communications.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/02/24/massive-gta-mafi... https://www.cp24.com/news/two-york-region-cops-charged-in-corruption-probe-1.4128807 https://www.cp24.com/news/two-york-region-cops-charged-in-co...
- skissane 4y agoNeither article mentions a "deputy gang". It just talks about ordinary police misconduct and corruption, which happens anywhere. It never mentions corrupt police forming a gang with an identifiable name, emblem, membership, etc – which is something I've never heard of outside of the US.
- starkd 4y ago[flagged]
- ianbicking 4y agoI imagine the Harvey Weinsteins of the world really appreciate having a corruptable police force at their disposal
- jker 4y agoNo, Harvey Weinstein went big, he had a private offshoot of Mossad at his disposal. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/harvey-weinsteins-army-of-spies https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/harvey-weinsteins-a...
- blahblah1234567 4y ago[flagged]
- andinaror 4y agoTragedy of the Commons
- throw1920 4y agoThe Department of Justice is too busy enacting selective enforcement against SpaceX for a hiring practice that is prevalent throughout the defense industry[1]. They don't have time to prosecute gangs. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spacex-justice-department-idUSKBN29X345 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spacex-justice-department...
- sokoloff 4y agoI'm sure the DoJ can find the same reference as I could: "An employer may restrict hiring to U.S. citizen only if a law, regulation, executive order, or government contract requires the employer to do so." I doubt that they failed to consider this prior to bringing enforcement action.
- vageli 4y agoI'm a bit surprised that SpaceX wouldn't be subject to ITAR. This article [0] from 2016 seems to say they are. [0]: https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a23080/spacex-elon-musk-itar/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a23080/spacex...
- sixothree 4y agoSo you're saying that both should be investigated and this is really a funding issue? Or you just don't like the whole civil rights thing?
- birdyrooster 4y agoIt’s almost as if the police are a gang that society allows to have the ability to legally steal from other gangs in return for enforcing some laws. For those downvoting me, care to offer any counter? Even if you have no experience in this you should be able to tell from first principles you cannot get rid of gangs but you can have one gang to rule them all.
- whythre 4y agoThe response is ‘welcome to having a government?’ Monopoly on force is one of the key points of having a government. When it is run well (or at least not to the point of being irredeemably corrupt), this is a positive. When the government becomes irredeemably corrupt, it is functionally indistinguishable from the criminals.
- birdyrooster 4y agoExactly I was being a bit facetious and it doesn’t translate well
- mschuster91 4y ago[flagged]
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago>Diffusion of responsibility [1]. And it's a feature not a bug. The government doesn't want concentrated responsibility because that concentrates accountability. Concentrated accountability reduces the power to screw people as much/often because if responsibility is concentrated then the task of holding people accountable is much more tractable. One bad man can be removed from power with one election, one prosecution and jail sentence, one bullet. You can't get rid of an entire misbehaving department so easily and it's even harder when most of them are "just doing their jobs" most of the time and it's the sum total of their jobs that's causing harm. Having ineffective governing bodies and government departments that harbor abuse and do their jobs sloppily is just part of the tradeoff.
- beepbooptheory 4y agoWell you have to square it with the very fact that these forms of affiliation are rather compatible with actually existing policing in our world. It's something that seems bad, and is certainly some kind of scandal, but there is nothing about it that is going against the goals we quantify for cops. Whether cops themselves follow any kind of law or have decenency/humanity is like a very minor concern at the end of the day, if not actively disincentivized in some cases. The extremely important thing is enforcing ingroup/outgroup mentality, and so we have stuff like this. Either way, if its not these more local gangs, its the nationwide fraternities which arguably serve the same kind of function. So there isn't really like a way out either way.
- zeven7 4y ago> The extremely important thing is enforcing ingroup/outgroup mentality, and so we have stuff like this. I would say overcoming that mentality is one of the most important things for which our society could strive.
- beepbooptheory 4y agoI don't really think its the "mentality" that's the problem in this particular case though. Insofar as we want the particular kind of policing that we apparently do in the U.S., we need to teach cops they are somewhat outside/above of society. Those in charge aren't dumb, this isnt just simply a greed for power, its all highly research-based and intentional, it maximizes the desired outcomes.
- marssaxman 4y agoIf this is the outcome, it would seem clear that we do not want the particular kind of policing which produces it.
- beepbooptheory 4y agoI mean who is "we" here? In this particular case, it has been decades, and its not like this wasn't known or a particularly spacey conspiracy theory... You either gotta believe the democratic process is totally bankrupt, or that there is an implicit/unconscious compromise among voters to choose particular promises of safety even if the cops are sometimes corrupt. There is the idea of policing, and then there is the reality. They can only coincide so much, but if you talk to any cop or read an literature about this, it really is only "so much." And it's not like we have any historical precedence for a police force being different than this either, its just how it always been. You can't blame them for doing their jobs!
- dclowd9901 4y agoA question I intuit but probably has a fallacy of some kind: if you want to enforce the law for dangerous and violent people, doesn’t it seem reasonable you’ll need at least equally if not more dangerous and violent people to do so? And wouldn’t a natural result of that be that those dangerous and violent “enforcers” emulate the same kind of organizational underpinnings as those they are enforcing against? Imagine there wasn’t a rule of law at all and no police officers. A gang of “baddies” forms. What would be a natural response to the formation of that gang? Wouldn’t it be a gang of “also baddies but baddies whose interests align more closely with ours?”
- ceejayoz 4y ago> if you want to enforce the law for dangerous and violent people, doesn’t it seem reasonable you’ll need at least equally if not more dangerous and violent people to do so? No. There are other ways. For example, mobbing with massively superior numbers, resulting in no harm to anyone, and a suspect getting the hospital care they needed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mzPj_IaMzY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mzPj_IaMzY
- dclowd9901 4y agoAh, but ok now you’ve lead me into my next point. You see how many officers it takes to subdue a single person wielding a close range weapon. Guns are multiplier of violence in and of themselves and so many people in the US have them, especially criminals. So we’re asking for a critical mass of people crazy enough to go toe to toe with people with guns who have nothing to lose. How could they not be similar if not the same as the criminals they’re up against and stand some kind of hope of making it out of the other side? I’d never be a cop personally because, well, many reasons, frankly, but the biggest one is I have better options. And I’m sure you do too. Almost everyone does. I’m not saying there doesn’t exist a way to nonviolently deal with the US criminal populace but I’ve yet to see any good examples of it outside of sound socioeconomic policies and a penal system that focuses on rehabilitation. And those are indirect.
- pawelmurias 4y ago
- fundad 4y agoThe people most supportive of police don’t think they’ll be harmed by police violence.
- banannaise 4y agoOnly the government can do something about this. Depending on the official/body, either they think the costs are too high (both to their career and to the functioning of the system) or they actively support this. In short, this is treated as an acceptable trade-off for enforcing the hierarchies of power.
- throwawaaarrgh 4y agoTechnically anyone can do something about it, but that person would be a vigilante and quickly killed, and people like their life more than they hate corruption
- CameronNemo 4y agoWith the notable exception of Christian Dorner. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings...
- landemva 4y ago> anyone can do something about it How? Even a victim suit against department would likely be tossed out due to USSC 'qualified immunity'.
- rayiner 4y ago> In short, this is treated as an acceptable trade-off for enforcing the hierarchies of power Why don’t you unpack that statement in the context of LA. The “hierarchies of power” you’re talking about here is the civilian government having control over organized crime.
- banannaise 4y agoConsidering the amount of influence that police organizations exert on local elections, and their willingness to weaponize that against any politician they see as a threat to their control, one might argue that it's more accurately organized crime having control over the civilian government.
- sixothree 4y agoThe _only_ problem is the lack of checks and balances - a founding principle of this country. Are they breaking the law? If so, what is the check? Are they too powerful? If so, what is the balance? edit: the obvious answer is there are few to none.
- yieldcrv 4y agoRobert Luna was elected into office for this specific reason, LA County voters also enacted additional measures to deal with rogue LA Sheriffs because there were no legal remedies. People are doing something and have made sure they can do more things. https://abc7.com/la-county-sheriff-robert-luna-alex-villanueva-updates/12447377/ https://abc7.com/la-county-sheriff-robert-luna-alex-villanue... https://ballotpedia.org/Los_Angeles_County,_Measure_A,_Removal_of_Sheriff_for_Cause_Amendment_(November_2022) https://ballotpedia.org/Los_Angeles_County,_Measure_A,_Remov... yes, you are reading this correctly, that Los Angeles County, starting in 2023 just received the power to do anything to Los Angeles Sheriff department Villaneuva and the internal gangs were that unconscionable.
- sagebird 4y agoI don't think this is the bystander effect at work here. (Perhaps initially, as it went from mostly clean to compromised, there was bystander effect plus other effects) An individual would be suicidal to join the LA Sheriff's force and try to solve it from within. US military force needs to take control of the department, restructure the command, flush the compromised, and monitor as control is transferred back. That is what we would do if the force were compromised by a foreign force, and the same logic applies.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> US military force needs to take control of the department This is martial law. Los Angeles doesn't need martial law. What you're describing is the DoJ's job.
- squarefoot 4y agoNo idea of how it works in US Police, but over here a cop would rarely raise a finger, or testify against another cop, save for exceptional cases, and evidence often isn't enough. That otherwise wonderful thing called esprit de corps went clearly too far, becoming in some circles more akin to Mafia's code of silence. That's why might be worth leaving out other cops.
- sli 4y agoThat's referred to as the "blue wall of silence" in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_wall_of_silence
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> might be worth leaving out other cops DoJ aren’t cops. (FBI are cops.)
- alephnerd 4y agoThe OIG, ATF, DEA, Marshal Service, and the FBI all agencies within the DoJ, though the FBI has always had signfiicant levels of autonomy within the DoJ compared to the others
- pengaru 4y ago> What is the word for "assuming someone else is going to do something about that, but there is no one"? It just seems like garden variety indifference/apathy/complacency...
- jonathankoren 4y agoPeople have been complaining about this for at least 50 years. They're shouted down for being "pro-crime" and "anti-cop". I know this may be new to you (Welcome. We have a snacks.), but the least you could do is become a bit informed about this before spouting off.
- scarface74 4y agoIt’s more like the Blue Wall
- yrdmb 4y ago[flagged]
- hndamien 4y agoDiffusigating responsibility.
- honkycat 4y agoAll of the money has been consolidated into a privileged few. They've bought and paid for the judges and have all the money to hire the lawyers. They own all the media so 99.9% of reporting is only what they want you to hear. The people who have all of the money don't give a shit. They have enough money to drown out the plebs rattling our cages. As long as they crack the right heads, suppress any movement looking to challenge power, and enforce the laws they deem important the police can act with impunity.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y agoThat would be the tragedy of the commons.
- lisasays 4y agoPretty much everyone knows In Southland, maybe. This is the first I'm hearing about it. It's a big planet with a lot going on, you know.