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The semantic turn of the Left is one of the worst signs of intellectual decay. There's approximately zero evidence that linguistic changes influence thought: th

The semantic turn of the Left is one of the worst signs of intellectual decay. There's approximately zero evidence that linguistic changes influence thought: the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is rejected by linguists except perhaps in some very narrow situations. The euphemism treadmill is a running joke, from negro, to black, to African American, to Black, to person of color. And none of them are better or worse than the other (though the 2020 innovation "bodies of color" managed to find a way to be more degrading than the worst that Stormfront could come up with). Why? We feel powerless to fix the problems that plague our society, so instead we turn to things we have agency over. Maybe we can't prevent group X from suffering from social discrimination, but if everything is just a matter of what words we use, we can just choose to use those words, stridently denounce everyone who hasn't gotten with the program, and pat ourselves on the back and call it a day.

paulv 4y ago
> The euphemism treadmill is a running joke, from negro, to black, to African American, to Black, to person of color. You missed a couple at the beginning of your list. A really significant one in particular.
- scarmig 4y ago
  Including it would distract from the main point (though IIRC there was no point at which it wasn't a slur; replacing non-slurs with novel non-slurs is a different category). That said, I think it supports my point. How effective has tabooing that slur been at eliminating racism in the USA?
  - QuercusMax 4y ago
    I'm the furthest thing from N-word apologist, but it's pronounced the same as the Latin word meaning "black" (modulo vowel pronunciation shifts), and spelled nearly the same. It's clearly derived from a word which did not originally have any meaning as a slur, and I bet you could find early usages in English which were merely descriptive. There's no reason to use it now, but understanding the fact that was originally a descriptive word is useful for the history of it.
    - jimbokun 4y ago
      There have been a few kerfuffles in soccer where a Spanish speaking person used the Spanish word for black person in an English speaking country…and were charged with making a racial slur.
      - projektfu 4y ago
        Moreno is the most common word I've heard in the US by black Spanish speakers describing themselves. Is negro more common in Spain?
  - majormajor 4y ago
    Why does a taboo have to "eliminate racism" to be considered useful or effective instead of just "reduce the amount of times people have to put up with hearing others call them that"?
    - scarmig 4y ago
      Do you have an estimate for how much tabooing that word decreased the racial wealth gap or increased the number of black children with access to healthcare?
- ilyt 4y ago
  Well it's american site and people get itchy when you mention it, because apparently having voldemort words that are simultaneously used by people supposedely offended by it in their culture is "good" thing to do
ccooffee 4y ago
Can you provide sources for "the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is more or less rejected by linguists"? I took a university course in "Philosophy of Language" around 2008 and I was taught in no uncertain terms that language structures thought. The wikipedia article for Linguistic Relativity[0] states: > Research has produced positive empirical evidence supporting linguistic relativity, and this hypothesis is provisionally accepted by many modern linguists. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
- scarmig 4y ago
  That quote is a relatively recent addition (17 Jan 2023) and isn't well-cited. A longer standing and more objective statement from the article: > Many different, often contradictory variations of the hypothesis have existed throughout its history.[4] The strong hypothesis of linguistic relativity, now referred to as linguistic determinism, says that language determines thought and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories. This hypothesis was held by some of the early linguists before World War II.[3] This version is generally agreed to be false by modern linguists.[2] You can read a reasonable discussion of it here: https://old.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/6aqsex/how_much_truth_is_there_to_the_sapirwhorf/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/6aqsex/how_muc...
  - ccooffee 4y ago
    Thank you!
majormajor 4y ago
You say it's both "intellectual decay" and "feeling powerless" but I see no reason that the two are connected, causal, or both happening. Hand people victimized by the past few centuries of American history the ability to fix, say, the generational wealth gap that resulted from denied opportunities and seizure of property, and see if they still only focus on words.
- fundad 4y ago
  That would be a great experiment.
roughly 4y ago
Alternatively, there’s a theory of change at play here that follows a relatively long path of inquiry through politics, sociology, and neuroscience to identify in-group/out-group dynamics and mental shortcuts as central blockers to attempts to increase cross-group empathy and drive social change.
- stillkicking 4y ago
  Even if that were true, I'd still not put any faith in the empathy skills of people who use e.g. "incel" as a slur, who claim "it's okay to be white" is hate speech and who call arson, vandalism and looting "mostly peaceful protests" because the in-group did it.
  - roughly 4y ago
    So long as you're not reducing entire groups into caricatures of themselves, it's probably fine.
    - stillkicking 4y ago
      It's not a caricature if it's taught at supposedly elite institutions of education, into which admission is contingent on a declaration of adherence to said ways of thinking.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    This is three gross mischaracterizations in one!
- scarmig 4y ago
  I don't dispute that there's a theory of change here: "if we explore the linguistic landscape, we can discover a set of signifiers that will help us to destroy racism/sexism/etc." I just reject that. We don't live in a Harry Potter book where the correct series of incantations affect the material world.
  - roughly 4y ago
autodev1 4y ago
Today, it's no longer person of color. It's "theirsxn of sholor". Please respect this and stop the violation and violence against theirsxns of sholor which is incurred when you use othering phrases. (not thereson-- because it has the word "son" in it, which is offensive to non-sons. sholor because it's closer to shalom which means peace.) /le jokes
agnos 4y ago
From the article: The project of the guides is utopian, but they’re a symptom of deep pessimism. They belong to a fractured culture in which symbolic gestures are preferable to concrete actions, argument is no longer desirable, each viewpoint has its own impenetrable dialect, and only the most fluent insiders possess the power to say what is real. Though I wonder if this diagnosis is actually too optimistic, in that it assumes people are 1) aware and care about the real problems and 2) willing to put in effort to enact meaningful change. Perhaps this is too cynical, but I think most people who adopt this sort of symbolic gesturing are pretty detached from the root issues of power and wealth inequality. "Virtue signaling" is a product of vanity, not pessimism/powerlessness.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  This what people do to distract from the fact that they don't want to give up housing as a lucrative investment if it means more housing, as that would infringe upon their lifestyle.
ryandrake 4y ago
> The euphemism treadmill is a running joke, It feels more like a minefield than a joke. A minefield that gets new mines added every so often just to keep everyone on their toes. When I was younger, I used to feel like I could keep up with all the new taboo words, but it seems like it is happening faster and faster these days. You can unintentionally say something that turns out to be taboo, and you're done for. Some years ago, I causally used the "r-word" and didn't even think anything of it, and blam! big mistake. We used to toss that one around all the time back in the 80s and 90s, felt kind of like a jerk when you used it in the early 2000s, but in the 2010s it's become totally lingua-non-grata. We learn the hard way from these experiences, but it does feel like a growing minefield. Worse, when something innocent we write/say today becomes a slur in 2040, future people will dig back in time and judge us by the words we wrote in 2020. Do you know what will be a slur in 20 years? I don't.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  > I causally used the "r-word" and didn't even think anything of it You casually called someone a "retard" (I assume that's the word) and someone took that wrongly? Of course they did! Even when "retard" was an acceptable put-down, it was still a put-down. Maybe the way to avoid the "minefield" you speak of is to not put others down? Even deservedly! Just try to be nicer to everyone, even if they are not, themselves, nice.
  - alar44 4y ago
    [dead]
  - sertsa 4y ago
    I've never thought of retarded as a putdown, it was just the sound used to describe a certain group of people. Be careful assuming you are in possession of the one true way.
    - SyzygistSix 4y ago
      There is a difference. Retarded was used to describe a person's condition. It means slow. Retard the noun was more a slur or put down.
cwkoss 4y ago
> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is rejected by linguists except perhaps in some very narrow situations What do you mean by this? Hasn't linguistic relativity been studied and demonstrated quite extensively? I don't disagree with your overall point, but found this surprising.
- scarmig 4y ago
  It's meant a lot of different things in the past. The initial version (the "strong" hypothesis) has been roundly rejected. Claims associated with it are what people usually think of ("the Ancient Greeks couldn't see the color blue!") when they think of Sapir-Whorf. Weaker versions with much more narrow claims are debated and controversial, but even for those, it's the most flashy (and least supported) claims that get the most popular press.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
blahblah1234567 4y ago
the correct term is no longer "persons of color" I received a letter in the mail from official sources, ordering me to use: "skin appropriating mammals & pseudo-mammals of complexions including greyscale shades from #FFFFFE to #000000" (pseudo-mammals is important so as not to exclude platypus & echidna identifying peoples) It's ok though-- I will let it slide this time. Next time though, it will be reported to the Commissar. And they will listen to me-- Because I am half skin appropriating mammals & pseudo-mammals of complexions including greyscale shades from #FFFFFE to #000000 (anything more than a quarter is considered full validated and verified via the official channels)
blahblah1234567 4y ago
I welcome "The semantic turn of the Left". It shows the emperor has no clothes. By increasing the silliness, more and more people observe "Wow these folks are ignorant lunatics, unaware that they're driving the perception of themselves as immature, ignorant hypocrites whose identity is built upon political trends."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
1letterunixname 4y ago
It's a shame. Many people who call themselves left instead have views similar to violent communism (as opposed to social democracy or Marxism) and fascism of the hard right in terms of inflexibility, harsh punishment, mercilessness, and aggressive intellectual and social domination. Gen X and older tend to have more of an idea of the spirit of left liberalism and what it means socially, life outlook, and pragmatically. Furthermore, there are nonzero people in groups who object to victim monikers like Latinx and over-sensitive terminology as demeaning. If it were me, since I can only speak for myself, I would want to be treated as equal without ceremony, pity, or unfair advantages. Alterations of language where there is little or no offense (asking the targets rather than the busy bodies) seem like token thoughts and prayers and inconvenience to the many rather than direct, positive help to anyone. Solve real concerns rather than pearl clutch the next unfashionable word.

paulv 4y ago

> The euphemism treadmill is a running joke, from negro, to black, to African American, to Black, to person of color. You missed a couple at the beginning of your list. A really significant one in particular.

scarmig 4y ago
Including it would distract from the main point (though IIRC there was no point at which it wasn't a slur; replacing non-slurs with novel non-slurs is a different category). That said, I think it supports my point. How effective has tabooing that slur been at eliminating racism in the USA?
- QuercusMax 4y ago
  I'm the furthest thing from N-word apologist, but it's pronounced the same as the Latin word meaning "black" (modulo vowel pronunciation shifts), and spelled nearly the same. It's clearly derived from a word which did not originally have any meaning as a slur, and I bet you could find early usages in English which were merely descriptive. There's no reason to use it now, but understanding the fact that was originally a descriptive word is useful for the history of it.
  - jimbokun 4y ago
    There have been a few kerfuffles in soccer where a Spanish speaking person used the Spanish word for black person in an English speaking country…and were charged with making a racial slur.
    - projektfu 4y ago
      Moreno is the most common word I've heard in the US by black Spanish speakers describing themselves. Is negro more common in Spain?
- majormajor 4y ago
  Why does a taboo have to "eliminate racism" to be considered useful or effective instead of just "reduce the amount of times people have to put up with hearing others call them that"?
  - scarmig 4y ago
    Do you have an estimate for how much tabooing that word decreased the racial wealth gap or increased the number of black children with access to healthcare?
ilyt 4y ago
Well it's american site and people get itchy when you mention it, because apparently having voldemort words that are simultaneously used by people supposedely offended by it in their culture is "good" thing to do

ccooffee 4y ago

Can you provide sources for "the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is more or less rejected by linguists"? I took a university course in "Philosophy of Language" around 2008 and I was taught in no uncertain terms that language structures thought. The wikipedia article for Linguistic Relativity[0] states: > Research has produced positive empirical evidence supporting linguistic relativity, and this hypothesis is provisionally accepted by many modern linguists. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

scarmig 4y ago
That quote is a relatively recent addition (17 Jan 2023) and isn't well-cited. A longer standing and more objective statement from the article: > Many different, often contradictory variations of the hypothesis have existed throughout its history.[4] The strong hypothesis of linguistic relativity, now referred to as linguistic determinism, says that language determines thought and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories. This hypothesis was held by some of the early linguists before World War II.[3] This version is generally agreed to be false by modern linguists.[2] You can read a reasonable discussion of it here: https://old.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/6aqsex/how_much_truth_is_there_to_the_sapirwhorf/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/6aqsex/how_muc...
- ccooffee 4y ago
  Thank you!

majormajor 4y ago

You say it's both "intellectual decay" and "feeling powerless" but I see no reason that the two are connected, causal, or both happening. Hand people victimized by the past few centuries of American history the ability to fix, say, the generational wealth gap that resulted from denied opportunities and seizure of property, and see if they still only focus on words.

fundad 4y ago
That would be a great experiment.

roughly 4y ago

Alternatively, there’s a theory of change at play here that follows a relatively long path of inquiry through politics, sociology, and neuroscience to identify in-group/out-group dynamics and mental shortcuts as central blockers to attempts to increase cross-group empathy and drive social change.

stillkicking 4y ago
Even if that were true, I'd still not put any faith in the empathy skills of people who use e.g. "incel" as a slur, who claim "it's okay to be white" is hate speech and who call arson, vandalism and looting "mostly peaceful protests" because the in-group did it.
- roughly 4y ago
  So long as you're not reducing entire groups into caricatures of themselves, it's probably fine.
  - stillkicking 4y ago
    It's not a caricature if it's taught at supposedly elite institutions of education, into which admission is contingent on a declaration of adherence to said ways of thinking.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  This is three gross mischaracterizations in one!
scarmig 4y ago
I don't dispute that there's a theory of change here: "if we explore the linguistic landscape, we can discover a set of signifiers that will help us to destroy racism/sexism/etc." I just reject that. We don't live in a Harry Potter book where the correct series of incantations affect the material world.
- roughly 4y ago

autodev1 4y ago

Today, it's no longer person of color. It's "theirsxn of sholor". Please respect this and stop the violation and violence against theirsxns of sholor which is incurred when you use othering phrases. (not thereson-- because it has the word "son" in it, which is offensive to non-sons. sholor because it's closer to shalom which means peace.) /le jokes

agnos 4y ago

From the article: The project of the guides is utopian, but they’re a symptom of deep pessimism. They belong to a fractured culture in which symbolic gestures are preferable to concrete actions, argument is no longer desirable, each viewpoint has its own impenetrable dialect, and only the most fluent insiders possess the power to say what is real. Though I wonder if this diagnosis is actually too optimistic, in that it assumes people are 1) aware and care about the real problems and 2) willing to put in effort to enact meaningful change. Perhaps this is too cynical, but I think most people who adopt this sort of symbolic gesturing are pretty detached from the root issues of power and wealth inequality. "Virtue signaling" is a product of vanity, not pessimism/powerlessness.

SyzygistSix 4y ago
This what people do to distract from the fact that they don't want to give up housing as a lucrative investment if it means more housing, as that would infringe upon their lifestyle.

ryandrake 4y ago

> The euphemism treadmill is a running joke, It feels more like a minefield than a joke. A minefield that gets new mines added every so often just to keep everyone on their toes. When I was younger, I used to feel like I could keep up with all the new taboo words, but it seems like it is happening faster and faster these days. You can unintentionally say something that turns out to be taboo, and you're done for. Some years ago, I causally used the "r-word" and didn't even think anything of it, and blam! big mistake. We used to toss that one around all the time back in the 80s and 90s, felt kind of like a jerk when you used it in the early 2000s, but in the 2010s it's become totally lingua-non-grata. We learn the hard way from these experiences, but it does feel like a growing minefield. Worse, when something innocent we write/say today becomes a slur in 2040, future people will dig back in time and judge us by the words we wrote in 2020. Do you know what will be a slur in 20 years? I don't.

ok_dad 4y ago
> I causally used the "r-word" and didn't even think anything of it You casually called someone a "retard" (I assume that's the word) and someone took that wrongly? Of course they did! Even when "retard" was an acceptable put-down, it was still a put-down. Maybe the way to avoid the "minefield" you speak of is to not put others down? Even deservedly! Just try to be nicer to everyone, even if they are not, themselves, nice.
- alar44 4y ago
  [dead]
- sertsa 4y ago
  I've never thought of retarded as a putdown, it was just the sound used to describe a certain group of people. Be careful assuming you are in possession of the one true way.
  - SyzygistSix 4y ago
    There is a difference. Retarded was used to describe a person's condition. It means slow. Retard the noun was more a slur or put down.

cwkoss 4y ago

> the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is rejected by linguists except perhaps in some very narrow situations What do you mean by this? Hasn't linguistic relativity been studied and demonstrated quite extensively? I don't disagree with your overall point, but found this surprising.

scarmig 4y ago
It's meant a lot of different things in the past. The initial version (the "strong" hypothesis) has been roundly rejected. Claims associated with it are what people usually think of ("the Ancient Greeks couldn't see the color blue!") when they think of Sapir-Whorf. Weaker versions with much more narrow claims are debated and controversial, but even for those, it's the most flashy (and least supported) claims that get the most popular press.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

blahblah1234567 4y ago

the correct term is no longer "persons of color" I received a letter in the mail from official sources, ordering me to use: "skin appropriating mammals & pseudo-mammals of complexions including greyscale shades from #FFFFFE to #000000" (pseudo-mammals is important so as not to exclude platypus & echidna identifying peoples) It's ok though-- I will let it slide this time. Next time though, it will be reported to the Commissar. And they will listen to me-- Because I am half skin appropriating mammals & pseudo-mammals of complexions including greyscale shades from #FFFFFE to #000000 (anything more than a quarter is considered full validated and verified via the official channels)

blahblah1234567 4y ago

I welcome "The semantic turn of the Left". It shows the emperor has no clothes. By increasing the silliness, more and more people observe "Wow these folks are ignorant lunatics, unaware that they're driving the perception of themselves as immature, ignorant hypocrites whose identity is built upon political trends."

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

1letterunixname 4y ago

It's a shame. Many people who call themselves left instead have views similar to violent communism (as opposed to social democracy or Marxism) and fascism of the hard right in terms of inflexibility, harsh punishment, mercilessness, and aggressive intellectual and social domination. Gen X and older tend to have more of an idea of the spirit of left liberalism and what it means socially, life outlook, and pragmatically. Furthermore, there are nonzero people in groups who object to victim monikers like Latinx and over-sensitive terminology as demeaning. If it were me, since I can only speak for myself, I would want to be treated as equal without ceremony, pity, or unfair advantages. Alterations of language where there is little or no offense (asking the targets rather than the busy bodies) seem like token thoughts and prayers and inconvenience to the many rather than direct, positive help to anyone. Solve real concerns rather than pearl clutch the next unfashionable word.