12 ms·

This will save a lot of money over time. Last time I checked in any detail, electricity prices per mile of transport per ton were about 25% that of fossil fuel

This will save a lot of money over time. Last time I checked in any detail, electricity prices per mile of transport per ton were about 25% that of fossil fuel prices per mile of transport per ton, and that was three years ago. They should really move all long-haul trucking to electric as well, at least for the main trunk lines, and for city-wide delivery. Remote rural routes will likely be the hardest to electrify.

konspence 4y ago
No long-haul electric truck technology exists.
- defrost 4y ago
  Daimler Truck, one of the world’s largest commercial vehicle manufacturers, has unveiled its first heavy-duty, battery-electric truck – the Mercedes-Benz eActros LongHaul – with a new e-axle and a range of 500kms. https://thedriven.io/2022/09/20/daimler-unveils-its-first-electric-heavy-duty-and-long-haul-truck/ https://thedriven.io/2022/09/20/daimler-unveils-its-first-el... Electric truck maker Janus has debuted the first battery-powered prime mover in Australia and has plans to set up battery swap stations up and down the eastern seaboard within months. .. a first taste of the company’s plans to electrify long haul truck fleets using only batteries. https://thedriven.io/2022/02/10/janus-unveils-first-electric-truck-for-australian-east-coast-battery-swap-route/ https://thedriven.io/2022/02/10/janus-unveils-first-electric...
  - diordiderot 4y ago
    500kms isn't really long haul in the US though
    - defrost 4y ago
      Mainland USofA is the same land area as Australia. 500 kms w/out having to stop is a long leg. Being able to stop and swap out | replace batteries in the same time as a refueling | load | unload is indeed "a long haul technology" as it enables long haul trucking.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      > Drivers must not exceed 4.5 hours of driving without taking a 45-minute break and a standard day of driving for a HGV driver is considered to be 9 hours long. The speed limit for this vehicle will be either 80km/h or 100km/h, I'm not sure how they decide, but with some good logistics for a rapid charge part-way through that's not far off.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
xbmcuser 4y ago
Solar and Wind electric production costs are still dropping by 10-15% a year same for batteries. A lot of people and countries don't realise the electricity revolution that is coming. Cost of production for a lot products will start coming down with cheaper electricity.
- ed25519FUUU 4y ago
  They don’t realize it because they don’t get any of the benefits. Electricity costs are rising across the country almost without exception. Meanwhile California is paying other states to take electricity because they generate so much excess power during the duck curve (while simultaneously having rolling blackouts)
  - wpm 4y ago
    IL also sells off something like 250MW of excess power but it’s just like that all the time since it’s all coming from our nuclear plants.
    - nine_k 4y ago
      250 MW of constantly available power from a reactor may be more valuable than 600 MW during sunshine that goes to 0 MW during night time. Solar will become vastly more valuable once enough electrical storage capacity goes online.
      - euroderf 4y ago
        And after electrical storage capacity is solved, let's work on heat storage capacity. Do I really have to spend ten grand digging up my yard ?
        nine_k 4y ago
        Like, well, home insulation and heat-exchanging ventilation?
akira2501 4y ago
> electricity prices per mile of transport per ton were about 25% that of fossil fuel prices per mile of transport per ton In shipping and logistics, time is money. Fuel can be dispensed in the US at a maximum of 10 gal/minute. Factor that against the largest charger you can find and see why the single cost difference doesn't matter yet. > They should really move all long-haul trucking to electric as well Reduced capacity from doing this requires additional vehicle time to haul the same amount of material. This isn't a single factor equation. Plus, over the road drivers sleep in their vehicles, and not always at truck stops. They're only allowed to drive for 10 hours, so it's not always as convenient as you might expect. Consider the weight of 600 gallons of fuel vs. the reduced hauling capacity from using an electric truck and see why we're a ways away from this yet. Have no fear; though, the moment this is logistically favorable, they will switch.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  The economics of long haul trucking make electrification hard. Fortunately, for local deliveries like the post office, constant stop-and-go means that regen braking can really stretch the range of electric batteries.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    Regen braking plus zero-cost idle. Electric is at a clear advantage for local delivery.
    - jjeaff 4y ago
      Most gas delivery vehicles don't idle these days. But maybe the starter motor requires more maintenance.
      - euroderf 4y ago
        Doesn't every gas motor start spew out some uncombusted fuel ?
mulmen 4y ago
I think the problem with long haul trucking is just getting the range. Are we close to having enough battery capacity to allow drivers to meet their hours-per-day limits? If not electric won’t be economical for operators. Local delivery is a much clearer fit for electric, even in the short term. We see that here.
- rdl 4y ago
  Stop-start traffic and local delivery is much clearer, but from what I've seen of the energy calculations on Tesla Semi, it actually makes sense for bulky vs. heavy shipments on flat, warm routes, as long as there is appropriately sited charging infrastructure. Especially good for consumer-facing and high margin fleets, which is why Frito-Lay is an ideal launch customer. Even if it doesn't make absolute sense today, it probably will in 5-10 years.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    Yeah you point out something that is easy to miss in these conversations. This is a transition. It won’t happen overnight. Local delivery will be first, which will contribute to economies of scale that will make ideal long-haul routes feasible, which will make further routes feasible. It will probably be decades before long haul Alaskan semis can be replaced with EVs but we can deliver the mail in LA with an EV today.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago
  If we're willing to invest in the infrastructure, it's possible to charge the trucks while they're in transit: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/9/18538030/germany-ehighway-siemens-vw-group-electrified-cables-wires-overhead-electric-hybrid-trucks https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/9/18538030/germany-ehighway-...
  - mulmen 4y ago
    Ok, that’s cool. Seems obvious in a place like central Washington where you can see hundreds of windmills lining the highway. Might also be beneficial on hillclimbs where instant battery capacity may be lacking. If we imagine building EVs that are 1:1 replacements for ICE we see challenging hurdles but with even small changes in the status quo EVs suddenly become feasible on shorter timeframes.
nonethewiser 4y ago
I have a hard time believing electric semis are cheaper because of range limits.
- tehjoker 4y ago
  The amount of energy needed to "fast charge" must be immense.
  - avhon1 4y ago
    ...why is it so much more than the energy required to charge slowly? The battery might get a little warmer while charging, so that's some more waste heat, but the battery gains the same amount of stored energy either way.
    - fwungy 4y ago
      You need bigger transmission lines to fast charge. That's expensive. You need to charge enough at the site to justify the line costs.
      - sarmasamosarma 4y ago
        [dead]
      - crote 4y ago
        Alternatively, use cheap local storage to "build up" energy for a fast charge.
        fwungy 4y ago
        There is no cheap way to store large amounts of electricity. EVs are great when in used in the right applications, but trying to make them work for everyone and everything is just going to tarnish the platform.
        dahfizz 4y ago
WalterBright 4y ago
If you really want to be environmental, long haul trucking should go by rail.
- nine_k 4y ago
  Where the rail exists, yes. The US is not as densely populated as Europe, so outside coastal areas much less land has a train station even within 200 miles radius.
  - diordiderot 4y ago
    The US used to be littered with railroad. Density isn't a problem Here is a map from 189X[0] Auto supremacy was and still is a choice. [0]https://digital-collections.columbuslibrary.org/digital/api/singleitem/image/maps/2048/default.jpg https://digital-collections.columbuslibrary.org/digital/api/...
    - nine_k 4y ago
      The US is still littered with railroads, and rail carries a large amount of cargo. It's still not not as dense as UK, Germany, or Netherlands, and cannot be, outside areas like North-East. What makes sense around places like NYC, Chicago, or Seattle, may not work equally well in Nebraska. Building a road and running trucks on it is just more affordable. Also, rail is optimized to have ridiculously high throughput at the expense of latency. Rail is great at hauling grain, huge hunks of steel, wood, etc, but is too slow for time-sensitive stuff like flowers or that birthday present you ordered at a last minute with express delivery. This is why relatively long-haul trucking exist in the US, despite the presence of a large and busy rail system, to the best of my knowledge. (Passenger rail vs cars is another kettle of fish entirely.)
      - diordiderot 4y ago
        > The US is still littered with railroads Far far fewer than there used to be > Building a road and running trucks on it is just more affordable. Only if you discount negative externalities. And you can't even know that for sure. The cost of operating rail is easy to calculate. Too many independent agents to accurately price automobile GDP (for lack of a better word). > is too slow for time-sensitive stuff Not if you have more trains running more frequently. Its a case of induced demand[0] 0.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#:~:text=Induced%20demand%20is%20demand%20that,%2Dup%22%20as%20latent%20demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#:~:text=Induced....
thehappypm 4y ago
Catenary on main trunks, combined with a requirement that all trucks have some battery range, would be super interesting. Trucks could be extremely efficient without needing to carry their own energy sources

konspence 4y ago

No long-haul electric truck technology exists.

defrost 4y ago
Daimler Truck, one of the world’s largest commercial vehicle manufacturers, has unveiled its first heavy-duty, battery-electric truck – the Mercedes-Benz eActros LongHaul – with a new e-axle and a range of 500kms. https://thedriven.io/2022/09/20/daimler-unveils-its-first-electric-heavy-duty-and-long-haul-truck/ https://thedriven.io/2022/09/20/daimler-unveils-its-first-el... Electric truck maker Janus has debuted the first battery-powered prime mover in Australia and has plans to set up battery swap stations up and down the eastern seaboard within months. .. a first taste of the company’s plans to electrify long haul truck fleets using only batteries. https://thedriven.io/2022/02/10/janus-unveils-first-electric-truck-for-australian-east-coast-battery-swap-route/ https://thedriven.io/2022/02/10/janus-unveils-first-electric...
- diordiderot 4y ago
  500kms isn't really long haul in the US though
  - defrost 4y ago
    Mainland USofA is the same land area as Australia. 500 kms w/out having to stop is a long leg. Being able to stop and swap out | replace batteries in the same time as a refueling | load | unload is indeed "a long haul technology" as it enables long haul trucking.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    > Drivers must not exceed 4.5 hours of driving without taking a 45-minute break and a standard day of driving for a HGV driver is considered to be 9 hours long. The speed limit for this vehicle will be either 80km/h or 100km/h, I'm not sure how they decide, but with some good logistics for a rapid charge part-way through that's not far off.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

xbmcuser 4y ago

Solar and Wind electric production costs are still dropping by 10-15% a year same for batteries. A lot of people and countries don't realise the electricity revolution that is coming. Cost of production for a lot products will start coming down with cheaper electricity.

ed25519FUUU 4y ago
They don’t realize it because they don’t get any of the benefits. Electricity costs are rising across the country almost without exception. Meanwhile California is paying other states to take electricity because they generate so much excess power during the duck curve (while simultaneously having rolling blackouts)
- wpm 4y ago
  IL also sells off something like 250MW of excess power but it’s just like that all the time since it’s all coming from our nuclear plants.
  - nine_k 4y ago
    250 MW of constantly available power from a reactor may be more valuable than 600 MW during sunshine that goes to 0 MW during night time. Solar will become vastly more valuable once enough electrical storage capacity goes online.
    - euroderf 4y ago
      And after electrical storage capacity is solved, let's work on heat storage capacity. Do I really have to spend ten grand digging up my yard ?
      - nine_k 4y ago
        Like, well, home insulation and heat-exchanging ventilation?

akira2501 4y ago

> electricity prices per mile of transport per ton were about 25% that of fossil fuel prices per mile of transport per ton In shipping and logistics, time is money. Fuel can be dispensed in the US at a maximum of 10 gal/minute. Factor that against the largest charger you can find and see why the single cost difference doesn't matter yet. > They should really move all long-haul trucking to electric as well Reduced capacity from doing this requires additional vehicle time to haul the same amount of material. This isn't a single factor equation. Plus, over the road drivers sleep in their vehicles, and not always at truck stops. They're only allowed to drive for 10 hours, so it's not always as convenient as you might expect. Consider the weight of 600 gallons of fuel vs. the reduced hauling capacity from using an electric truck and see why we're a ways away from this yet. Have no fear; though, the moment this is logistically favorable, they will switch.

bobthepanda 4y ago
The economics of long haul trucking make electrification hard. Fortunately, for local deliveries like the post office, constant stop-and-go means that regen braking can really stretch the range of electric batteries.
- mulmen 4y ago
  Regen braking plus zero-cost idle. Electric is at a clear advantage for local delivery.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    Most gas delivery vehicles don't idle these days. But maybe the starter motor requires more maintenance.
    - euroderf 4y ago
      Doesn't every gas motor start spew out some uncombusted fuel ?

mulmen 4y ago

I think the problem with long haul trucking is just getting the range. Are we close to having enough battery capacity to allow drivers to meet their hours-per-day limits? If not electric won’t be economical for operators. Local delivery is a much clearer fit for electric, even in the short term. We see that here.

rdl 4y ago
Stop-start traffic and local delivery is much clearer, but from what I've seen of the energy calculations on Tesla Semi, it actually makes sense for bulky vs. heavy shipments on flat, warm routes, as long as there is appropriately sited charging infrastructure. Especially good for consumer-facing and high margin fleets, which is why Frito-Lay is an ideal launch customer. Even if it doesn't make absolute sense today, it probably will in 5-10 years.
- mulmen 4y ago
  Yeah you point out something that is easy to miss in these conversations. This is a transition. It won’t happen overnight. Local delivery will be first, which will contribute to economies of scale that will make ideal long-haul routes feasible, which will make further routes feasible. It will probably be decades before long haul Alaskan semis can be replaced with EVs but we can deliver the mail in LA with an EV today.
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 4y ago
If we're willing to invest in the infrastructure, it's possible to charge the trucks while they're in transit: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/9/18538030/germany-ehighway-siemens-vw-group-electrified-cables-wires-overhead-electric-hybrid-trucks https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/9/18538030/germany-ehighway-...
- mulmen 4y ago
  Ok, that’s cool. Seems obvious in a place like central Washington where you can see hundreds of windmills lining the highway. Might also be beneficial on hillclimbs where instant battery capacity may be lacking. If we imagine building EVs that are 1:1 replacements for ICE we see challenging hurdles but with even small changes in the status quo EVs suddenly become feasible on shorter timeframes.

nonethewiser 4y ago

I have a hard time believing electric semis are cheaper because of range limits.

tehjoker 4y ago
The amount of energy needed to "fast charge" must be immense.
- avhon1 4y ago
  ...why is it so much more than the energy required to charge slowly? The battery might get a little warmer while charging, so that's some more waste heat, but the battery gains the same amount of stored energy either way.
  - fwungy 4y ago
    You need bigger transmission lines to fast charge. That's expensive. You need to charge enough at the site to justify the line costs.
    - sarmasamosarma 4y ago
      [dead]
    - crote 4y ago
      Alternatively, use cheap local storage to "build up" energy for a fast charge.
      - fwungy 4y ago
        There is no cheap way to store large amounts of electricity. EVs are great when in used in the right applications, but trying to make them work for everyone and everything is just going to tarnish the platform.
      - dahfizz 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

If you really want to be environmental, long haul trucking should go by rail.

nine_k 4y ago
Where the rail exists, yes. The US is not as densely populated as Europe, so outside coastal areas much less land has a train station even within 200 miles radius.
- diordiderot 4y ago
  The US used to be littered with railroad. Density isn't a problem Here is a map from 189X[0] Auto supremacy was and still is a choice. [0]https://digital-collections.columbuslibrary.org/digital/api/singleitem/image/maps/2048/default.jpg https://digital-collections.columbuslibrary.org/digital/api/...
  - nine_k 4y ago
    The US is still littered with railroads, and rail carries a large amount of cargo. It's still not not as dense as UK, Germany, or Netherlands, and cannot be, outside areas like North-East. What makes sense around places like NYC, Chicago, or Seattle, may not work equally well in Nebraska. Building a road and running trucks on it is just more affordable. Also, rail is optimized to have ridiculously high throughput at the expense of latency. Rail is great at hauling grain, huge hunks of steel, wood, etc, but is too slow for time-sensitive stuff like flowers or that birthday present you ordered at a last minute with express delivery. This is why relatively long-haul trucking exist in the US, despite the presence of a large and busy rail system, to the best of my knowledge. (Passenger rail vs cars is another kettle of fish entirely.)
    - diordiderot 4y ago
      > The US is still littered with railroads Far far fewer than there used to be > Building a road and running trucks on it is just more affordable. Only if you discount negative externalities. And you can't even know that for sure. The cost of operating rail is easy to calculate. Too many independent agents to accurately price automobile GDP (for lack of a better word). > is too slow for time-sensitive stuff Not if you have more trains running more frequently. Its a case of induced demand[0] 0.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#:~:text=Induced%20demand%20is%20demand%20that,%2Dup%22%20as%20latent%20demand https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand#:~:text=Induced....

thehappypm 4y ago

Catenary on main trunks, combined with a requirement that all trucks have some battery range, would be super interesting. Trucks could be extremely efficient without needing to carry their own energy sources