7 ms·

It's been 11 years since Apple first released non-upgradeable laptops. Can we get over it already? If you want a laptop that you can upgrade then don't buy an A

It's been 11 years since Apple first released non-upgradeable laptops. Can we get over it already? If you want a laptop that you can upgrade then don't buy an Apple. If you don't like Apple's ecosystem then don't buy an Apple. This has been the advice for over 10 years now. There's nothing new here.

javaunsafe2019 4y ago
But as it’s bad for the environment it’s even more important in 2023 to keep complaining about it.
- taylodl 4y ago
  But as it’s bad for the environment Is it? Thanks to the increased reliability that non-upgradeability confers I'm still using my 2012 MacBook Pro as my daily driver. I suspect there's a lot of minutia to tease out to verify whether this claim is actually true in the global case.
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    How often have you had the sockets fail, compared to the components themselves?
  - schwartzworld 4y ago
    2012 MVP was a solid computer. I've been supplied MacBooks at work that have all been newer and less reliable.
    - ibz 4y ago
      2012 MBP was indeed my final reliable Apple product. I "upgraded" away from it unfortunately (because jobs always paid for these things) which resulted in me throwing away at least 3 newer models, which simply stopped working. I'm gladly off Apple for 2 years now!
    - taylodl 4y ago
      My work-issued 2015 MBP is still going strong. But I have heard there have been models where they had more issues.
    - mattkrause 4y ago
      That's an apt typo!
  - jrockway 4y ago
    I agree with you. My computing requirements haven't changed significantly in a decade, so it is easy to pick a laptop that will meet them. Display technology is pretty much perfect; there is very little that is going to change in the life of your laptop, so you don't need to worry about the display becoming outdated. Laptop keyboards have been terrible since the first laptop ever, and that will remain true forever. CPU / memory / storage is also pretty easy to predict, and modern laptops are very competitive. (I would want 16 CPU, 64GB RAM, 4TB storage. Apple is happy to sell such a laptop, though I guess the CPU maxes out at 12 cores.) For that reason, I don't see why you would expect to upgrade your laptop. I currently use a home-built workstation and rarely upgrade it. By the time the CPU is outdated and tired, you also want to swap the GPU. My 128GB of DDR4 is useless in the world of DDR5. So it's not like I get a ton of upgradeability by having a workstation. I can keep the case and the fans for the next build, saving me $150. Woo. (I have kept my NVMe SSDs forever, though. But they are inexpensive and "rsync" after the upgrade is not too onerous, so it's pretty reasonable. But, technology improves there too. I have PCIe-4, but my SSDs don't take advantage of it. So keeping them just gives me slower storage.) The only thing you have to be careful about is sticker shock vs. future needs. Upgrade is pay later, but laptops are pay now. It hurts to price NVMe SSDs on Newegg and then pay Apple $2000 for it. That might be what people are talking about with "upgradeability"; "Apple is too expensive".
  - cpursley 4y ago
    Exactly. My Apple products out-last non-Apple stuff by an order of magnitude (as much as I want to be on Android and Linux desktop).
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
      That's because they are more expensive, not because Apple is slower on innovation.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > the increased reliability that non-upgradeability confers I'm skeptical of those being connected; my 2008 thinkpads and 2011 desktop (that I'm writing this on) are extremely upgradable and still work fine (I mean, the thinkpads are slow by modern standards, but that's not a reliability issue). And non-upgradeability in this sense also means that it's not reparable either, so when it does have problems the whole thing is dead rather than, say, just swapping out a faulty RAM module or replacing the worn-out SSD or whatever - to say nothing of the battery degrading.
    - wilg 4y ago
      Theoretically, having to design the product to be modular means you'll have connectors, modules, and other parts that you have to ship on every product. At scale, you could imagine that adding 0.1 grams of weight and material to every unit nets out to be more wasteful than throwing away 1 in 100,000 entire units due to a fault.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
        Theoretically, maybe, but we'd need real numbers to even start to evaluate that.
        wilg 4y ago
        Sure, I'm just pointing out from an environmental/waste standpoint it's not obvious that repairability is a win.
- dagw 4y ago
  Based on highly unscientific observation, people tend to keep using old Apple laptops much longer than random Not Apple laptops.
  - ibz 4y ago
    Old Apple laptops, like the 2012 mentioned, yes. Newer ones don't really last long anymore.
- hbn 4y ago
  His 4th point in the conclusion at the end: > I wanted a cheap travel laptop I could replace without blinking an eye at the price. It's pretty easy to get ~10 years out of a good laptop from Apple. I'll be shocked if this guy is still using his Thinkpad in 10 years, and even if he does, that he didn't create more e-waste by swapping parts that he wouldn't have had to sticking with the MacBook.
  - apricot 4y ago
    Hello there. I'm writing this on a Thinkpad x220 from 2011.
magic_hamster 4y ago
Obviously anyone will get the computer they want, well at least when you can. Sometimes you get stuck with a choice someone else made, like a company device. However, it is still useful to voice and especially to listen to criticism. Apple should be thankful that a lot of people are voicing their opinions. Getting this kind of feedback is priceless if they want to appeal to more people and grow their user base.
- taylodl 4y ago
  It's the same feedback Apple has been getting for 11 years now. There's nothing new here. I think Apple is well-aware that there are people who prefer an upgradeable laptop and not having to participate in the Apple ecosystem. I suspect Apple has data showing even more people prefer having a more reliable laptop (upgradeability tends to decrease reliability) and the perceived benefits of the Apple ecosystem - otherwise why would they have continued on this path for 11 years now whilst having very vocal critics of this approach the whole time?
  - magic_hamster 4y ago
    > I suspect Apple has data showing even more people prefer having a more reliable laptop (upgradeability tends to decrease reliability) and the perceived benefits of the Apple ecosystem I wouldn't assume. Most Apple users I know conform with their devices one way or another (I used to be one of them myself). This could be just one more thing they can live without but would still rather have than not. Apple won't decide something based on criticism alone or even based on what people want. They decide based on what will net bigger profit. In this case, you can just as easily guess that Apple has data showing that while overpriced parts, hostile repair policy and lack of upgradability bother everyone, all of these contribute massively to the bottom line and are not enough to drive people away en masse. However, criticism is still important since it can help in some decisions where it can be the determining factor or the missing nudge towards one direction over the other.
  - stinkytaco 4y ago
    I skeptical that non upgradability increases reliability. I have never heard this claim before. I have heard it decreases thickness and weight, both of which people might like, but increasing reliability? How much of that can just be attributed to improved components as manufacturing gets more sophisticated? I think this is just down to most people not caring. I like the idea of upgradability as an abstract concept, but didn't necessarily use the options when available.
eptcyka 4y ago
Why do you feel the need to defend apple in this case?
- elbigbad 4y ago
  My read wasn’t a defense of Apple and in fact I agree with the criticism. My read was that it’s tired and dull to keep harping on exactly the same feedback for a decade as though it’s unique. Clickbait headline “I replaced my MacBook with a thinkpad gasp” then people click thinking there will be something interesting, but it’s the same old stuff.
  - ProAm 4y ago
    > My read was that it’s tired and dull to keep harping on exactly the same feedback for a decade as though it’s unique. I hear what you are saying but just because something is bad for a long time doesn't make it acceptable just because its been a long time. Will Apple ever change? Nope, their share price depends on it not changing.
  - eptcyka 4y ago
    The validity of the feedback doesn't change with the times necessarily - it's still just as stupid to not be able to extract a drive out of a laptop now as it was 10 years ago. If so, the author of the post hasn't put forward higher priority qualms to complain about, so to me it definitely sounds like they are just defending Apple. And if they were, I just want to know why.
  - ketralnis 4y ago
    Who says it has to be unique to be bad?
  - Nullabillity 4y ago
    The complaints will go away when the issue is fixed, presumably. If Apple doesn't want to fix it then that's on them, not on the people highlighting that Apple are, indeed, still being pricks.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
I think it's also psychological. When buying a Mac, you have this warm fuzzy feeling that you are taken care of, you have been given the best, there is nothing to improve and nothing to worry about.
- mftb 4y ago
  I agree it's psychological. Upon entering an Apple store, I feel like The Dude stumbling into the lair of the pretentious nihilists in The Big Lebowski.
- titaniczero 4y ago
  Jeez, I don’t think I’ll ever understand the american thing with Apple. It must be a social thing, I’ve seen people humiliate and even shun people who have Android (“the green bubble”) or other non-Apple devices. I feel that they're always very biased in these comparisons.
howinteresting 4y ago
Apple is the world's most valuable corporation, they can deal with some criticism.
- jodrellblank 4y ago
  It isn't Apple who's suffering the criticism, it's us who has to wade through low value, uninteresting, repetitive comments on HN which won't make a blind bit of difference to how Apple does anything, who suffer from it. Is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34879574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34879574 worth upvoting because "Apple can take the criticism"?
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    As long as everyone else has to suffer through the endless parade of praise Apple gets on here, yes.
    - jodrellblank 4y ago
      You don't have to, you can close thread. Instead of shitting in thread, then closing it.
heavyset_go 4y ago
Just because Apple wants to increase their profit margins, by enforcing planned obsolescence and creating e-waste on scales that are beyond comprehension, does not mean that everyone else should just ignore it and shut up about it. It's not Apple's way or the highway, there is room for criticism and change. There are also millions of Apple customers who have no idea that Apple is actively going out of their way to ensure that the devices they own can't be upgraded. Pretending that everybody knows how strict Apple is about planned obsolescence is not a given.
- justinator 4y ago
  >by enforcing planned obsolescence Their support for software updates and security patches in older models is actually quite good. They've also made a ton of strides in the right direction when it comes to repair-ability of their phone line.
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    I can run Windows or Linux on any computer for decades if I want to, and I have. Software is not the issue. The issue is that Macs are artificially limited by hardware, not the software that they run, although macOS deprecation can be a limitation. Computers generally become obsolete because of hardware limitations, and Macs have had had limitations imposed by soldered components like memory for more than a decade, now.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Non-Apple laptops have also been slowly moving to more soldered components. This will likely continue as memory timings and power consumption requirements continue to tighten. I remember when you could replace the CPU in laptops, however the benefit to doing so didn't keep many systems out of landfills.
    - mgkimsal 4y ago
      Can you run modern windows on a machine from 2003? I doubt it would install. Can you run winXP on a modern machine? Possibly, but most people probably shouldn't as there's no support for it any longer.
lopis 4y ago
> a laptop that you can upgrade When you want to "upgrade" from a broken SSD to a functional one, you still need to replace basically the whole device. So yeah, we need to continue to complain until companies stop being anti-user and anti-repair.
OJFord 4y ago
> I felt like it? I'm not telling you what to do here, I'm just telling you my experience. Also, it was news to me that the screen and trackpad are so easily replaceable/upgradeable, that there's such a community around it. It's your comment that isn't adding anything.
kube-system 4y ago
What does non-upgradable mean? It has been even longer since Intel discontinued socketed mobile processors. LPDDR has advantages, and it is not socketed per the spec. It seems silly to blame all of this on Apple when the entire industry is going that way, and for a reason.
efdee 4y ago
And 11 years later they are still non-upgradable and it still sucks. Just because we're a few years later doesn't mean it's still a huge drawback.
softfalcon 4y ago
Practically, I agree with you. If you don't need upgrade-ability, buy an Apple. These are the market options, choose and get on with your life. Ideologically, I disagree with you. If we keep allowing the removal of upgrade-ability to retain a foothold in our devices, we will be worse off in the long-run. My gut says we need to keep beating the drum and taking a stand or it will be bad for our future. But then again, I typed and wrote this on an M1 MacPro, because I've "chosen" and am "getting on with my life" like a true hypocrite.
- taylodl 4y ago
  IDK. I think Apple's take is these are appliances. Do you worry about upgrading your refrigerator or microwave? That's where computing has gone. Back when every 3 years or so there were significant performance improvements necessitating an upgrade then the ability to upgrade was important. Now you can go 5-10 years before you find your performance lacking - which is also the lifetime of the hardware. Apple has made computers appliances. There may still be niche cases where such an approach is undesirable and that's okay - other vendors are filling that niche.
  - softfalcon 4y ago
    If it's an appliance, it should last as long and not become obsolete the same as my appliances do. Examples include: - Kenmore Dishwasher (12 years of age, still running perfectly) - Danby Deep freezer (9 years of age, still running perfectly) - Whirlpool Washer & Dryer (21 years of age, still running perfectly, minor self-service repairs) - Kenmore Refrigerator (11 years of age, still running perfectly) I have barely had to service these items, but when I did (washer and dryer) the parts were readily available and I was able to do the repair myself. When I compare this to my iPhone X, it is quite different: - 1 year in, needed a screen replacement due to a factory faulty digitizer - 3 years in, needed a battery replacement - 4 years in, phone is starting to get slow, heats up a lot when in use If I had to compare this to a "device" I own and use regularly, I would say it feels a lot more like a car and a lot less like my refrigerator. Based on what I'm reading, it would appear the lawyers and courts see it similarly and the only folks disagreeing are Apple/Microsoft/Google/John-Deere. Folks who don't want right-to-repair, which funnily enough, we have for cars and most appliances. Odd that all the sudden they want it otherwise when it's a "computer" but also... is now an "appliance". I wonder why they're so keen to make seem like it's an appliance? Is it perhaps advantageous for them to do so?
BirAdam 4y ago
The main problem is that e-waste is an ever increasing problem and companies like Apple are just creating more e-waste. Every single time a new Apple device is created, so is more e-waste. With a fully user serviceable device (of any category), less e-waste is created, and the time period of use is longer for many of those components. Personally, I do not care what people choose to buy, but everyone needs to become more aware of the true cost of their iTrinkets.
- silent_cal 4y ago
  Not sure about that, there is a huge market for refurbished Apple products.

javaunsafe2019 4y ago

But as it’s bad for the environment it’s even more important in 2023 to keep complaining about it.

taylodl 4y ago
But as it’s bad for the environment Is it? Thanks to the increased reliability that non-upgradeability confers I'm still using my 2012 MacBook Pro as my daily driver. I suspect there's a lot of minutia to tease out to verify whether this claim is actually true in the global case.
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  How often have you had the sockets fail, compared to the components themselves?
- schwartzworld 4y ago
  2012 MVP was a solid computer. I've been supplied MacBooks at work that have all been newer and less reliable.
  - ibz 4y ago
    2012 MBP was indeed my final reliable Apple product. I "upgraded" away from it unfortunately (because jobs always paid for these things) which resulted in me throwing away at least 3 newer models, which simply stopped working. I'm gladly off Apple for 2 years now!
  - taylodl 4y ago
    My work-issued 2015 MBP is still going strong. But I have heard there have been models where they had more issues.
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    That's an apt typo!
- jrockway 4y ago
  I agree with you. My computing requirements haven't changed significantly in a decade, so it is easy to pick a laptop that will meet them. Display technology is pretty much perfect; there is very little that is going to change in the life of your laptop, so you don't need to worry about the display becoming outdated. Laptop keyboards have been terrible since the first laptop ever, and that will remain true forever. CPU / memory / storage is also pretty easy to predict, and modern laptops are very competitive. (I would want 16 CPU, 64GB RAM, 4TB storage. Apple is happy to sell such a laptop, though I guess the CPU maxes out at 12 cores.) For that reason, I don't see why you would expect to upgrade your laptop. I currently use a home-built workstation and rarely upgrade it. By the time the CPU is outdated and tired, you also want to swap the GPU. My 128GB of DDR4 is useless in the world of DDR5. So it's not like I get a ton of upgradeability by having a workstation. I can keep the case and the fans for the next build, saving me $150. Woo. (I have kept my NVMe SSDs forever, though. But they are inexpensive and "rsync" after the upgrade is not too onerous, so it's pretty reasonable. But, technology improves there too. I have PCIe-4, but my SSDs don't take advantage of it. So keeping them just gives me slower storage.) The only thing you have to be careful about is sticker shock vs. future needs. Upgrade is pay later, but laptops are pay now. It hurts to price NVMe SSDs on Newegg and then pay Apple $2000 for it. That might be what people are talking about with "upgradeability"; "Apple is too expensive".
- cpursley 4y ago
  Exactly. My Apple products out-last non-Apple stuff by an order of magnitude (as much as I want to be on Android and Linux desktop).
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
    That's because they are more expensive, not because Apple is slower on innovation.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > the increased reliability that non-upgradeability confers I'm skeptical of those being connected; my 2008 thinkpads and 2011 desktop (that I'm writing this on) are extremely upgradable and still work fine (I mean, the thinkpads are slow by modern standards, but that's not a reliability issue). And non-upgradeability in this sense also means that it's not reparable either, so when it does have problems the whole thing is dead rather than, say, just swapping out a faulty RAM module or replacing the worn-out SSD or whatever - to say nothing of the battery degrading.
  - wilg 4y ago
    Theoretically, having to design the product to be modular means you'll have connectors, modules, and other parts that you have to ship on every product. At scale, you could imagine that adding 0.1 grams of weight and material to every unit nets out to be more wasteful than throwing away 1 in 100,000 entire units due to a fault.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
      Theoretically, maybe, but we'd need real numbers to even start to evaluate that.
      - wilg 4y ago
        Sure, I'm just pointing out from an environmental/waste standpoint it's not obvious that repairability is a win.
dagw 4y ago
Based on highly unscientific observation, people tend to keep using old Apple laptops much longer than random Not Apple laptops.
- ibz 4y ago
  Old Apple laptops, like the 2012 mentioned, yes. Newer ones don't really last long anymore.
hbn 4y ago
His 4th point in the conclusion at the end: > I wanted a cheap travel laptop I could replace without blinking an eye at the price. It's pretty easy to get ~10 years out of a good laptop from Apple. I'll be shocked if this guy is still using his Thinkpad in 10 years, and even if he does, that he didn't create more e-waste by swapping parts that he wouldn't have had to sticking with the MacBook.
- apricot 4y ago
  Hello there. I'm writing this on a Thinkpad x220 from 2011.

magic_hamster 4y ago

Obviously anyone will get the computer they want, well at least when you can. Sometimes you get stuck with a choice someone else made, like a company device. However, it is still useful to voice and especially to listen to criticism. Apple should be thankful that a lot of people are voicing their opinions. Getting this kind of feedback is priceless if they want to appeal to more people and grow their user base.

taylodl 4y ago
It's the same feedback Apple has been getting for 11 years now. There's nothing new here. I think Apple is well-aware that there are people who prefer an upgradeable laptop and not having to participate in the Apple ecosystem. I suspect Apple has data showing even more people prefer having a more reliable laptop (upgradeability tends to decrease reliability) and the perceived benefits of the Apple ecosystem - otherwise why would they have continued on this path for 11 years now whilst having very vocal critics of this approach the whole time?
- magic_hamster 4y ago
  > I suspect Apple has data showing even more people prefer having a more reliable laptop (upgradeability tends to decrease reliability) and the perceived benefits of the Apple ecosystem I wouldn't assume. Most Apple users I know conform with their devices one way or another (I used to be one of them myself). This could be just one more thing they can live without but would still rather have than not. Apple won't decide something based on criticism alone or even based on what people want. They decide based on what will net bigger profit. In this case, you can just as easily guess that Apple has data showing that while overpriced parts, hostile repair policy and lack of upgradability bother everyone, all of these contribute massively to the bottom line and are not enough to drive people away en masse. However, criticism is still important since it can help in some decisions where it can be the determining factor or the missing nudge towards one direction over the other.
- stinkytaco 4y ago
  I skeptical that non upgradability increases reliability. I have never heard this claim before. I have heard it decreases thickness and weight, both of which people might like, but increasing reliability? How much of that can just be attributed to improved components as manufacturing gets more sophisticated? I think this is just down to most people not caring. I like the idea of upgradability as an abstract concept, but didn't necessarily use the options when available.

eptcyka 4y ago

Why do you feel the need to defend apple in this case?

elbigbad 4y ago
My read wasn’t a defense of Apple and in fact I agree with the criticism. My read was that it’s tired and dull to keep harping on exactly the same feedback for a decade as though it’s unique. Clickbait headline “I replaced my MacBook with a thinkpad gasp” then people click thinking there will be something interesting, but it’s the same old stuff.
- ProAm 4y ago
  > My read was that it’s tired and dull to keep harping on exactly the same feedback for a decade as though it’s unique. I hear what you are saying but just because something is bad for a long time doesn't make it acceptable just because its been a long time. Will Apple ever change? Nope, their share price depends on it not changing.
- eptcyka 4y ago
  The validity of the feedback doesn't change with the times necessarily - it's still just as stupid to not be able to extract a drive out of a laptop now as it was 10 years ago. If so, the author of the post hasn't put forward higher priority qualms to complain about, so to me it definitely sounds like they are just defending Apple. And if they were, I just want to know why.
- ketralnis 4y ago
  Who says it has to be unique to be bad?
- Nullabillity 4y ago
  The complaints will go away when the issue is fixed, presumably. If Apple doesn't want to fix it then that's on them, not on the people highlighting that Apple are, indeed, still being pricks.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago

I think it's also psychological. When buying a Mac, you have this warm fuzzy feeling that you are taken care of, you have been given the best, there is nothing to improve and nothing to worry about.

mftb 4y ago
I agree it's psychological. Upon entering an Apple store, I feel like The Dude stumbling into the lair of the pretentious nihilists in The Big Lebowski.
titaniczero 4y ago
Jeez, I don’t think I’ll ever understand the american thing with Apple. It must be a social thing, I’ve seen people humiliate and even shun people who have Android (“the green bubble”) or other non-Apple devices. I feel that they're always very biased in these comparisons.

howinteresting 4y ago

Apple is the world's most valuable corporation, they can deal with some criticism.

jodrellblank 4y ago
It isn't Apple who's suffering the criticism, it's us who has to wade through low value, uninteresting, repetitive comments on HN which won't make a blind bit of difference to how Apple does anything, who suffer from it. Is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34879574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34879574 worth upvoting because "Apple can take the criticism"?
- howinteresting 4y ago
  As long as everyone else has to suffer through the endless parade of praise Apple gets on here, yes.
  - jodrellblank 4y ago
    You don't have to, you can close thread. Instead of shitting in thread, then closing it.

heavyset_go 4y ago

Just because Apple wants to increase their profit margins, by enforcing planned obsolescence and creating e-waste on scales that are beyond comprehension, does not mean that everyone else should just ignore it and shut up about it. It's not Apple's way or the highway, there is room for criticism and change. There are also millions of Apple customers who have no idea that Apple is actively going out of their way to ensure that the devices they own can't be upgraded. Pretending that everybody knows how strict Apple is about planned obsolescence is not a given.

justinator 4y ago
>by enforcing planned obsolescence Their support for software updates and security patches in older models is actually quite good. They've also made a ton of strides in the right direction when it comes to repair-ability of their phone line.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  I can run Windows or Linux on any computer for decades if I want to, and I have. Software is not the issue. The issue is that Macs are artificially limited by hardware, not the software that they run, although macOS deprecation can be a limitation. Computers generally become obsolete because of hardware limitations, and Macs have had had limitations imposed by soldered components like memory for more than a decade, now.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Non-Apple laptops have also been slowly moving to more soldered components. This will likely continue as memory timings and power consumption requirements continue to tighten. I remember when you could replace the CPU in laptops, however the benefit to doing so didn't keep many systems out of landfills.
  - mgkimsal 4y ago
    Can you run modern windows on a machine from 2003? I doubt it would install. Can you run winXP on a modern machine? Possibly, but most people probably shouldn't as there's no support for it any longer.

lopis 4y ago

> a laptop that you can upgrade When you want to "upgrade" from a broken SSD to a functional one, you still need to replace basically the whole device. So yeah, we need to continue to complain until companies stop being anti-user and anti-repair.

OJFord 4y ago

> I felt like it? I'm not telling you what to do here, I'm just telling you my experience. Also, it was news to me that the screen and trackpad are so easily replaceable/upgradeable, that there's such a community around it. It's your comment that isn't adding anything.

kube-system 4y ago

What does non-upgradable mean? It has been even longer since Intel discontinued socketed mobile processors. LPDDR has advantages, and it is not socketed per the spec. It seems silly to blame all of this on Apple when the entire industry is going that way, and for a reason.

efdee 4y ago

And 11 years later they are still non-upgradable and it still sucks. Just because we're a few years later doesn't mean it's still a huge drawback.

softfalcon 4y ago

Practically, I agree with you. If you don't need upgrade-ability, buy an Apple. These are the market options, choose and get on with your life. Ideologically, I disagree with you. If we keep allowing the removal of upgrade-ability to retain a foothold in our devices, we will be worse off in the long-run. My gut says we need to keep beating the drum and taking a stand or it will be bad for our future. But then again, I typed and wrote this on an M1 MacPro, because I've "chosen" and am "getting on with my life" like a true hypocrite.

taylodl 4y ago
IDK. I think Apple's take is these are appliances. Do you worry about upgrading your refrigerator or microwave? That's where computing has gone. Back when every 3 years or so there were significant performance improvements necessitating an upgrade then the ability to upgrade was important. Now you can go 5-10 years before you find your performance lacking - which is also the lifetime of the hardware. Apple has made computers appliances. There may still be niche cases where such an approach is undesirable and that's okay - other vendors are filling that niche.
- softfalcon 4y ago
  If it's an appliance, it should last as long and not become obsolete the same as my appliances do. Examples include: - Kenmore Dishwasher (12 years of age, still running perfectly) - Danby Deep freezer (9 years of age, still running perfectly) - Whirlpool Washer & Dryer (21 years of age, still running perfectly, minor self-service repairs) - Kenmore Refrigerator (11 years of age, still running perfectly) I have barely had to service these items, but when I did (washer and dryer) the parts were readily available and I was able to do the repair myself. When I compare this to my iPhone X, it is quite different: - 1 year in, needed a screen replacement due to a factory faulty digitizer - 3 years in, needed a battery replacement - 4 years in, phone is starting to get slow, heats up a lot when in use If I had to compare this to a "device" I own and use regularly, I would say it feels a lot more like a car and a lot less like my refrigerator. Based on what I'm reading, it would appear the lawyers and courts see it similarly and the only folks disagreeing are Apple/Microsoft/Google/John-Deere. Folks who don't want right-to-repair, which funnily enough, we have for cars and most appliances. Odd that all the sudden they want it otherwise when it's a "computer" but also... is now an "appliance". I wonder why they're so keen to make seem like it's an appliance? Is it perhaps advantageous for them to do so?

BirAdam 4y ago

The main problem is that e-waste is an ever increasing problem and companies like Apple are just creating more e-waste. Every single time a new Apple device is created, so is more e-waste. With a fully user serviceable device (of any category), less e-waste is created, and the time period of use is longer for many of those components. Personally, I do not care what people choose to buy, but everyone needs to become more aware of the true cost of their iTrinkets.

silent_cal 4y ago
Not sure about that, there is a huge market for refurbished Apple products.