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What he experienced is actually expected, deeper states of meditation bring out even harder experiences. Meditation is marketed in the west as some sort of a re

What he experienced is actually expected, deeper states of meditation bring out even harder experiences. Meditation is marketed in the west as some sort of a relaxation pill, designed to cure anxiety and other mental ailments. It's actually not. Meditation is a hardcore exercise for the mind and if your mind is not strong enough then deeper states will break you.

melx 4y ago
Meditation is looking into one's mind to uncover the dirty things that one will have to face and "improve" upon. I meditate since 2011.
- lanstin 4y ago
  Are you judging the various thoughts and emotions as dirty or clean? That is a very different practice from what I have been taught about Zen.
HeckFeck 4y ago
Curious. It sounds like meditation has been misappropriated in the same way as therapy. Therapy _should_ bring up difficult emotions and experiences from the past because they are often the root of dysfunction and frustration in the present.
- samastur 4y ago
  And then what? I'm genuinely curious as a loved one rejects therapy exactly because she already knows what causes of her depression are and does not see any use in debating them further as they only bring her down. I don't have experience or knowledge to explain how it would help her.
  - richiebful1 4y ago
    A good therapist doesn't just talk about root causes, imo. A good therapist talks about healthy coping mechanisms, and ways to get out of negative thought cycles
    - astrange 4y ago
      That has the problem that it's boring. Where do people who are overly well adjusted go to get traumatized again? (Like a secular Tantrayana.)
  - hutzlibu 4y ago
    "because she already knows what causes of her depression are and does not see any use in debating them further as they only bring her down." Hard to advice without further knowing details, but I could relate in a way, that the global state of the world causes me depression, but I cannot change the root cause. But I can change my attitude towards things. Deal with the problems I can solve and accept the rest. Spot patterns, where I indulge myself into misery and choose a different track (if possible). And if we are talking about a childhood trauma, this person wants to avoid, then you can compare it to a splinter that is still in the flesh, causing misery and infection - removing the splinter will hurt and it will bleed - but after the splinter is gone, the wound can heal for good.
    - HeckFeck 4y ago
      From my experience the biggest source of depression was people around me. Especially those I felt obligated to, but they didn't seem obligated to me in return. Maybe looking here might help. Indeed, it is not uncommon to criticise the world as a substitute for those in our environment whom we cannot criticise. Leaving those people was difficult but the depression lifted and I was free to focus on my own life, which has been getting better. Also getting a good night's sleep is very helpful. There are certainly also intensifying factors in the modern western lifestyle.
  - thih9 4y ago
    Please remember that having a loved one that deals with depression is itself a big challenge and good reason for therapy too. The fact that she might need it "more" is not a reason to avoid seeking help yourself (if you feel that you need it).
  - brabarossa 4y ago
    And then you can see unhelpful thoughts and behaviors, and work on yourself. Here's an example of techniques for CBT: https://positivepsychology.com/cbt-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-techniques-worksheets/ https://positivepsychology.com/cbt-cognitive-behavioral-ther...
  - LastTrain 4y ago
    Maybe she knows herself, hopefully she isn’t getting pressured to do something she doesn’t want to do. Ask her what, instead of talk therapy, she thinks would be helpful. The answer might be enlightening.
- thih9 4y ago
  There's additional layer of complexity: both "meditation" and "therapy" exist in various different forms. The above description might fit some methods better and some less. E.g. some meditation techniques do focus on relaxation; some therapy types focus less on emotions and experiences from the past and look at the present instead; etc.
- zikzak 4y ago
  There is a reason that it is normally recommended that serious/deep meditation practice be done with a teacher. It's isn't so people can scam newbies out of money. When you really practice meditation consistently over a long period of time, you experience a lot of different states of mind. Some of these can make you feel "god like" as if you were enlightened. Teachers bring you down to Earth and remind you that it's just your mind being present while not meditating that makes you feel that way. You can experience strange visions like flashing lights and things. Some people interpret these as a mystical experience or something but it's probably just some random crap your brain is doing in a deep, meditative state. The most common effect, though, is a stripping down of all the lies we tell ourselves. This can be very, very traumatic. The realization that you are mostly making things up as you go and that you might not even have free will can be very heavy and hard to take. You might question who you are and how you have lived until this point. The real issue, though, is the "I'm enlightened" crowd. They are insufferable and need to brought back down to reality before they go to a dinner party and annoy everyone.
- seltzered_ 4y ago
  There's been works like 'McMindfulness' written about this, along with framings warning of practices of 'escapism meditation'
- robocat 4y ago
  Opening past mental wounds is often like massive invasive surgery, requiring immense skill, plenty of observation afterwards, and a lengthy recovery. Unfortunately many councillors and psychologists are barbers, butchering people’s minds, or infecting them with hokum. The worst I have ever heard of was getting a bunch of troubled teenagers together, a session getting them to share their horrific experiences, then sending them home with zero concern for the consequences. I mean, you are already struggling and then you need to process other people’s stories of rape, family violence, and worse. Or you need to face whatever Pandora’s box demons you have shared. Ouch.
lr4444lr 4y ago
Sounds as conveniently unfalsifibale as any more patent pseudoscience.
- Karunamon 4y ago
  Anything as subjective as one's own mindset interpreted by oneself is incompatible with the scientific method in the first place. It's not the right tool for the job because it is impossible to objectively measure the results. That does not make those results any less real.
  - fluoridation 4y ago
    "Real" in what way? I would say that something is definitely real if I can agree with other people that it's there, while other things can at best be put in the "maybe" pile. Whatever you experience while meditating, other people won't be able to experience it, so it can't go in the "definitely real" pile. So the fact that it can't be studied scientifically definitely does make it less real, in the sense that your can't say that it's real with the same confidence, even when you're the one experiencing it.
    - Karunamon 4y ago
      As real as the rest of your feelings in that they color, if not drive, your subjective experience of the world. Which applies to pretty much every person on the planet.
    - Frummy 4y ago
      So not having the tool to measure something makes it not part of reality? Makes me think of how our worldview every now and then expands, from geocentrism to heliocentrism and so on. Surely the earth revolved around the sun before it was understood to be that way. And surely our experiences are real even though our minds are isolated from eachother. In Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus, the devil told Adrian roughly this: Your brain is sick, yes you are hallucinating me, but that doesn't make me less real.

melx 4y ago

Meditation is looking into one's mind to uncover the dirty things that one will have to face and "improve" upon. I meditate since 2011.

lanstin 4y ago
Are you judging the various thoughts and emotions as dirty or clean? That is a very different practice from what I have been taught about Zen.

HeckFeck 4y ago

Curious. It sounds like meditation has been misappropriated in the same way as therapy. Therapy _should_ bring up difficult emotions and experiences from the past because they are often the root of dysfunction and frustration in the present.

samastur 4y ago
And then what? I'm genuinely curious as a loved one rejects therapy exactly because she already knows what causes of her depression are and does not see any use in debating them further as they only bring her down. I don't have experience or knowledge to explain how it would help her.
- richiebful1 4y ago
  A good therapist doesn't just talk about root causes, imo. A good therapist talks about healthy coping mechanisms, and ways to get out of negative thought cycles
  - astrange 4y ago
    That has the problem that it's boring. Where do people who are overly well adjusted go to get traumatized again? (Like a secular Tantrayana.)
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  "because she already knows what causes of her depression are and does not see any use in debating them further as they only bring her down." Hard to advice without further knowing details, but I could relate in a way, that the global state of the world causes me depression, but I cannot change the root cause. But I can change my attitude towards things. Deal with the problems I can solve and accept the rest. Spot patterns, where I indulge myself into misery and choose a different track (if possible). And if we are talking about a childhood trauma, this person wants to avoid, then you can compare it to a splinter that is still in the flesh, causing misery and infection - removing the splinter will hurt and it will bleed - but after the splinter is gone, the wound can heal for good.
  - HeckFeck 4y ago
    From my experience the biggest source of depression was people around me. Especially those I felt obligated to, but they didn't seem obligated to me in return. Maybe looking here might help. Indeed, it is not uncommon to criticise the world as a substitute for those in our environment whom we cannot criticise. Leaving those people was difficult but the depression lifted and I was free to focus on my own life, which has been getting better. Also getting a good night's sleep is very helpful. There are certainly also intensifying factors in the modern western lifestyle.
- thih9 4y ago
  Please remember that having a loved one that deals with depression is itself a big challenge and good reason for therapy too. The fact that she might need it "more" is not a reason to avoid seeking help yourself (if you feel that you need it).
- brabarossa 4y ago
  And then you can see unhelpful thoughts and behaviors, and work on yourself. Here's an example of techniques for CBT: https://positivepsychology.com/cbt-cognitive-behavioral-therapy-techniques-worksheets/ https://positivepsychology.com/cbt-cognitive-behavioral-ther...
- LastTrain 4y ago
  Maybe she knows herself, hopefully she isn’t getting pressured to do something she doesn’t want to do. Ask her what, instead of talk therapy, she thinks would be helpful. The answer might be enlightening.
thih9 4y ago
There's additional layer of complexity: both "meditation" and "therapy" exist in various different forms. The above description might fit some methods better and some less. E.g. some meditation techniques do focus on relaxation; some therapy types focus less on emotions and experiences from the past and look at the present instead; etc.
zikzak 4y ago
There is a reason that it is normally recommended that serious/deep meditation practice be done with a teacher. It's isn't so people can scam newbies out of money. When you really practice meditation consistently over a long period of time, you experience a lot of different states of mind. Some of these can make you feel "god like" as if you were enlightened. Teachers bring you down to Earth and remind you that it's just your mind being present while not meditating that makes you feel that way. You can experience strange visions like flashing lights and things. Some people interpret these as a mystical experience or something but it's probably just some random crap your brain is doing in a deep, meditative state. The most common effect, though, is a stripping down of all the lies we tell ourselves. This can be very, very traumatic. The realization that you are mostly making things up as you go and that you might not even have free will can be very heavy and hard to take. You might question who you are and how you have lived until this point. The real issue, though, is the "I'm enlightened" crowd. They are insufferable and need to brought back down to reality before they go to a dinner party and annoy everyone.
seltzered_ 4y ago
There's been works like 'McMindfulness' written about this, along with framings warning of practices of 'escapism meditation'
robocat 4y ago
Opening past mental wounds is often like massive invasive surgery, requiring immense skill, plenty of observation afterwards, and a lengthy recovery. Unfortunately many councillors and psychologists are barbers, butchering people’s minds, or infecting them with hokum. The worst I have ever heard of was getting a bunch of troubled teenagers together, a session getting them to share their horrific experiences, then sending them home with zero concern for the consequences. I mean, you are already struggling and then you need to process other people’s stories of rape, family violence, and worse. Or you need to face whatever Pandora’s box demons you have shared. Ouch.

lr4444lr 4y ago

Sounds as conveniently unfalsifibale as any more patent pseudoscience.

Karunamon 4y ago
Anything as subjective as one's own mindset interpreted by oneself is incompatible with the scientific method in the first place. It's not the right tool for the job because it is impossible to objectively measure the results. That does not make those results any less real.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  "Real" in what way? I would say that something is definitely real if I can agree with other people that it's there, while other things can at best be put in the "maybe" pile. Whatever you experience while meditating, other people won't be able to experience it, so it can't go in the "definitely real" pile. So the fact that it can't be studied scientifically definitely does make it less real, in the sense that your can't say that it's real with the same confidence, even when you're the one experiencing it.
  - Karunamon 4y ago
    As real as the rest of your feelings in that they color, if not drive, your subjective experience of the world. Which applies to pretty much every person on the planet.
  - Frummy 4y ago
    So not having the tool to measure something makes it not part of reality? Makes me think of how our worldview every now and then expands, from geocentrism to heliocentrism and so on. Surely the earth revolved around the sun before it was understood to be that way. And surely our experiences are real even though our minds are isolated from eachother. In Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus, the devil told Adrian roughly this: Your brain is sick, yes you are hallucinating me, but that doesn't make me less real.