13 ms·

Dancing is stupid

64 points by stasbar 4y ago

50 4y ago
> There is nothing more notable in Socrates than that he found time, when he was an old man, to learn music and dancing, and thought it time well spent. (Michel de Montaigne, Essais) Albert Camus dancing (Life Magazine): https://coreyrobin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/albert-camus-dancing.jpg https://coreyrobin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/albert-cam...
- dekhn 4y ago
  Albert Camus dancing? That's absurd.
AstixAndBelix 4y ago
Dancing is just a game we play, like everything else we do. Once you see it like that it all makes sense
- grafelic 4y ago
  So when I'm dancing alone, which I do occasionally, I play a game? What game is that?
  - bornfreddy 4y ago
    Solitaire. ;-)
  - BulgarianIdiot 4y ago
    Games are not always group activity. The game is alignment & synchronization. Animals also dance. Parrots are quite good at it.
  - is_true 4y ago
    Solitaire 3D
  - VoodooJuJu 4y ago
    Dancing
- nordsieck 4y ago
  > Dancing is just a game we play, like everything else we do. Once you see it like that it all makes sense IMO, this is just not true. There is something really special about synchronized action with other people. Be it marching, singing, chanting, etc. It engenders trust, builds community, and generally builds relationships in a way that I don't think anything else does. This isn't a strictly good thing either - my observation is that dancer relationships tend to be... unstable. And partner dance is one of the most developed and interesting method of synchronized action that people have created[1]. It's fundamentally a different sort of activity to listening to poetry, playing basketball, attending a lecture, or writing a CRUD app. --- 1. Orchestra/band rivals dance here - certainly there is opportunity for much greater scale at high levels of complexity. Of course, you have to give up touch to get that.
  - sublinear 4y ago
    > It's fundamentally a different sort of activity to listening to poetry, playing basketball, attending a lecture, or writing a CRUD app. I disagree. Team sports (playing basketball) are just as much about choreography and also the connection between dance and all other activities you mentioned. The feeling of being part of a "well-oiled machine" is the sense that the choreography is successful. This feels good because most of the time a group of people wouldn't care for doing what you expect. It's affirmation.
    - nordsieck 4y ago
      > I disagree. Team sports (playing basketball) are just as much about choreography and also the connection between dance and all other activities you mentioned. The feeling of being part of a "well-oiled machine" is the sense that the choreography is successful. This feels good because most of the time a group of people wouldn't care for doing what you expect. It's affirmation. I've done team sports and all I can say is: it's not the same[1]. When I'm on a team, we're all trying to achieve the same goal, but we aren't one body. There's no sense that everyone is acting as a single being. Beyond that, I guess, I can't really give much of a logical argument - it's just something that I've experienced. And others may disagree, which is fine too. My own personal theory is that there is no innate way the body can tell what is self and what is other. And synchronized movement is a sort of hack that tricks people into partially accepting other people as self. But that's just a wild theory I have and has no real backing that I know of. --- 1. I suspect that high level military drill probably would engender the same feelings, but I suspect that that's not what you meant when you mentioned "team sports".
- tgv 4y ago
  Huizinga [1], I'm sure. Literary bollocks. It's a contrived intellectual effort, whose only goal can be to impress. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Ludens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Ludens
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
draw_down 4y ago
[dead]
marcodiego 4y ago
Some thoughts: I like Douglas Adams phrase that says "I'd be happy than right any day". Also, about the hint "If programming is your dance, and you love doing it, then do it professionally" consider that turning something fun into a job may make it dull. In my life I became much "lighter" when I learned to don't care so much if people think I'm right. I basically stopped being https://m.xkcd.com/386/ https://m.xkcd.com/386/ . My advice is be somewhat eclectic and respect other people tastes. One more thing, and this is something I heard from someone else and could confirm myself: once you pass the stage of knowing your body and reading other people's non verbal communication, dance is purely algorithmic with a bit of Markov chain to decide the next step; we, TI/CS people, are actually the best ones doing it.
- is_true 4y ago
  "I'd far rather be happy than right any day"
sublinear 4y ago
> If programming is your dance, and you love doing it, then do it professionally, but this is where your dance has taken you. I wish writing was the author's "dance". Dancing tends to not be the best metaphor for anything in particular. Dancing is just dancing.
kubb 4y ago
It's common for poorly adjusted people to develop a sense of superiority as a defence mechanism.
- serverholic 4y ago
  Or perhaps people are different and they find themselves pressured and bullied by “normal” people.
  - kubb 4y ago
    It's ok to be different, but thinking your better is often unhealthy and a symptom of trauma.
    - serverholic 4y ago
      My issue is the claim that these people are poorly adjusted. Perhaps these people are responding to other peoples sense of superiority. These other people don’t get called out because they are “normal” and we assume that normalcy is automatically superior.
- hcks 4y ago
  Yes, and it is sad to see people thinking that something as universal as dancing (that literally exist in every culture in some form) is "not for them". It sadly implies that this person went through bullying and rejection.
  - scotty79 4y ago
    You could say the same about religion and a lot of other things. Still, no, thank you.
  - maleldil 4y ago
    Why is it so difficult for you to accept that others don't share your taste? I've never been into dancing but decided to take some classes with friends because that sounded fun, and realised that I truly don't like dancing. It has nothing to do with rejection. This claim that "you poor thing, if you hadn't been rejected you'd see how good this is" sounds really condescending.
Darkstryder 4y ago
> I’ve never heard of a family being divided because its members dance different styles, but I am in one divided by political and religious opinions. Being a dancer (lindy hop) with a large number of dancers in my social circle, dancing is actually a frequent source of tension among many couples around me. Couples splitting up because one is heavily more invested in dancing than the other is a common occurence. And don’t get me started on lindy hop vs west coast swing.
- nordsieck 4y ago
  > And don’t get me started on lindy hop vs west coast swing. The sad thing is that (for the most part) I don't think the westies really hate on the lindy hoppers much. You can see, admittedly older, clips[1] of dancers throwing in a bit of lindy, balboa, and shag in top level comps. Of course, this is Sylvia Sykes, so maybe that's an exception. --- 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOWt0oyx9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOWt0oyx9k
- pizza234 4y ago
  > And don’t get me started on lindy hop vs west coast swing. I'm puzzled where this comes from, since they're entirely different scenes. On a social dance night, or say, a festival, one may find Blue/Balboa/Lindy Hop (and possibly Shag), but hardly Lindy Hop and West Coast Swing, since the music is different. Edit: Actually, the message that the article sends is exactly what happens - dancers try other dances, then they share how they've integrated them into their dance, or how interesting is anyway to try something different - as opposed to intellectual condescension. > Couples splitting up because one is heavily more invested in dancing than the other is a common occurence. There surely are occurrences of this, but I wouldn't describe the phenomenon as common. It implies that a romantic relationship is based entirely on dancing, which I don't think is frequent; also, the vast majority of the dancers leave the scene within 3/4 years. I've personally lived the "mismatch of interest", but it ended up like any other separate hobby in the context of a couple.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    I’d add also that this is really only an issue for some women. Most men I’ve met end up leaving the dance scene once they have a partner - if said partner doesn’t dance. It’s reflected by polling the crowd. There are way more women in relationships out dancing than there are men out dancing in relationships. Single men dominate the numbers when it comes to dancing. This is why I don’t really recommend it to most men as a way to meet women. It’s lopsided numbers and it’s hard to stand out in a good way as a beginner - in most dance scenes anyway. That said, if you have a lot of time to kill and are big on learning new skills… it can pan out but it’s a multi-year endeavor that often doesn’t go anywhere.
htk 4y ago
Great article, but hard to be internalized by those who could benefit from it the most (me some years ago).
bsnnkv 4y ago
Over the past two years I have become quite a competent swing dancer. In order to do this, I've had to practice (of course), but also make friends and build community with people from all different walks of life and professions. We got to know each other a lot more slowly, some might even say superficially, but these slow burn relationships with more conversation in dance than in words have become some of the deepest and most meaningful friendships in my adult life. If I could have my time all over again, I would start dancing as early as possible in life.
Trasmatta 4y ago
There's something about dancing that people get really weird about if you don't want to participate. As if it's their god given duty to convince you that, no, you really DO like dancing, and you'll have a great time if you just loosen up and have fun. I wish people would just respect "no thank you" and stop trying to push people to do something they clearly don't want. As is, I have to avoid events with dancing. And no, it's not an elitist "I'm just so much smarter than the people dancing" thing, like the post seems to imply.
- throw_pm23 4y ago
  What about those who didn't want at first, then tried it after some nudging, and ended up enjoying it?
  - RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm 4y ago
    In my experience, if you tell one of the dance people that you have tried for over 10 years and still don't like it, they will very likely not even accept that. They will believe they can show you better and make you like it, and thus will try to obnoxiously persuade you to dance with them. It's just rude. And the attitude of yours is also part of the problem: Believing that somehow grown up people are incapable of learning the very basic fact "dancing can be fun" on their own and need to be told about it and nudged towards it. No, they don't, they know it can be enjoyable, and they have tried, and it isn't for them, and they don't need to be educated any further.
  - Trasmatta 4y ago
    A little nudging seems okay, but it often crosses the line with dancing, to the point where people get physically dragged to the dance floor. A little gentle nudging followed by respecting the other person's choice is the way to go. But some people can't seem to compute the fact that there are legitimate reasons some people don't enjoy dancing, and take it as an almost personal affront. If I'm playing Smash Brothers at a party, I'll totally try to get people involved, even if they don't look interested. But some people don't enjoy video games, and some people just don't like fighting games, so I don't physically force the controller into their hands, claiming "you'll have fun if you just loosen up!"
unxdfa 4y ago
I am reminded of this suddenly https://youtu.be/6ofYNHRcspM https://youtu.be/6ofYNHRcspM
- iamflimflam1 4y ago
  Funny - I went straight to this https://youtu.be/_au0UUHI2aI https://youtu.be/_au0UUHI2aI
thriftwy 4y ago
I'm just not sure the common modern people dance at all. They go to the dance floor and do some weird random movements listening to overly loud music of grossly low quality. Whether people a century or two ago has interpreted this as dance or as some mental conditon is an open question. I'm all for ball dance or irish dance but not for the club variety.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  Yeah what folks do nowadays is more like, I don't know, what people did for a million years before courtly Renaissance pedants started codifying it so somebody could be cooler than another person.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    Nope! For a million years people spent a lot of effort on culture which meant their tunes (drum rhymes) and dance movements were quite advanced. We live in epoch of deliberate primitivism.
    - cma 4y ago
      We found dance foot pattern fossils or something?
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        We know a few near-neolithic tribes right now.
        cma 4y ago
        We don't have good evidence for cognitively modern (vs anatomically) humans, cognitively modern including any known current tribes, beyond 200,000 years or so, other than I think there was some recent stuff finding decorative patterns a bit further back that might indicate it goes back more.
    - 4y ago
dav_Oz 4y ago
Incidentally a helpful dichotomy in this regard is laid out in Nietzsche's first major work: The Birth of Tragedy Out of the Spirit of Music (he was a superb classical philologist by trade and one of the youngest tenured "Classics" professors at the age of 24): Apollonian/Dionysian [0] >Dancing forces you to be here and now—connecting you with your and your partner’s body. Dancing is a means of irrational communication. Dancing is a conversation between two people where the means of communication are your bodies. Personally, I wouldn't focus on partner dance. In my experience those tend to be over-analytical and strict. It is more approachable to immerse yourself in dancing all by yourself and/or in group dance (more akin to ritualistic dances inducing trance-like states). [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian
- giardini 4y ago
  >"...laid out in Nietzsche's first major work..."< Now that you bring it up, does it help? That is, does dancing help you get laid?
maxrev17 4y ago
Tough gig on hacker news with this one. Unless it's logical thinking to prove superiority, you've lost!
- rfrey 4y ago
  This was a strange comment to come across after reading 20 comments seriously engaging with the essay.
TAKEMYMONEY 4y ago
Lipsky: You dance? David Foster Wallace : Uh huh. I’ve just discovered in the last few years that I really like it. Although I’m still not very good. Lipsky: Where do you go, a club? David: This Baptist church. Lipsky: Why there? David: Because Baptists can dance. -- from the film The End of the Tour
twawaaay 4y ago
> Dancing is a great test of what part of your brain dominates. Good dancing is when you stop thinking and just let your feelings lead. Yah, that's why best dancers in the world never train and prepare their routines. Honestly. Good dancing is when you stop thinking, AFTER you have spent time preparing enough so you don't have to think about it anymore. I wonder if people watching TV or Youtube get the wrong impression. They see people making things look easy. Nice poses, nice makeup, nice dresses, light moves. What they don't see is countless hours over many years that went into preparing everything. ** I am an amateur runner. People sometimes tell me I am a natural. I honestly look well when running, no hunching, positively bouncy, light steps. No exertion. Easy breathing. I try to explain that I spent couple years just fixing my running mechanics, one step at a time. Strengthening my muscles and tendons so that I can move my weight to forefoot and recover more energy when running, running with a metronome to get my cadence right, learning to breathe deeply and in sync with my strides, running strides to fix my mechanics when at full speed, bringing my attention to what my hands are doing so that they are relaxed and not moving to the sides too much, making sure my foot contacts pavement under me and not before me, making sure my heels move high up behind me, forcing myself to run straight and look straight, doing strength exercises at home so that my core muscles are strong enough to support good posture while running, learning to regulate my speed by tilting forward, etc. Even silly things like paying attention to the weather and clothing for the weather. I see so many people put on way too much clothes when it gets just a tad colder and then look visibly uncomfortable throughout the run. When I started running I did it, too. Then I made a running log where I noted the outside weather conditions and how I felt through the run and over time I learned what I exactly need to put on depending on the weather and the run I am making so I feel just right. No, things don't come naturally -- at least not to most people. And I think it is good news. Almost everybody can do almost everything. The only thing that is blocking me from being a good dancer is whether I want to invest the time to become one. I don't. I can relax knowing it is up to me to decide what I can achieve and what I want to spend my efforts on.
- darkerside 4y ago
  > Good dancing is when you stop thinking, AFTER you have spent time preparing enough so you don't have to think about it anymore. Well, yeah, that's what OP said. Good dancing can happen after lots of training or none at all.
somewhereoutth 4y ago
"A vertical expression of a horizontal desire" But really it is about enjoying music (and thus perhaps celebrating life) with your whole body, often in community with others similarly enjoying.
doop 4y ago
Great article! Also: > I’ve never heard of a family being divided because its members dance different styles Anyone who believes this needs to go watch Strictly Ballroom (1992) with all possible urgency. I was also somewhat sceptical about dancing until in my early 20s I made the discovery that nightclubs were not necessarily just places where people went to get shitfaced, but that there were places run by and for enthusiasts of the music - that going out and dancing for eight hours straight was not just something you could do but that was incredibly enjoyable as well. A huge amount of what has been good in my life since then has, one way or another, come from going out and dancing. Amongst (many) other things, I'm confident that I'm a better programmer for it: the usual arguments (blah blah, lowers stress, default mode network) deployed in favour of meditation also apply to dancing. It won't work if you're forced into it, and I don't think it's cool to do so, but that's why people can be so evangelistic about it.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  Any advice on where to start for someone who'd like to learn to dance better at nightclubs?
  - doop 4y ago
    Find a style of music you enjoy listening to, then go to a club that plays it, and start dancing. Keep doing that. You might find that your taste shifts a bit over time, and that's fine, and it's fine to shop around a bit: the point is to try to find an environment where you can lose yourself in the music. If you're very self-conscious about your dancing then try to find a more underground scene (I started off in industrial/EBM and moved on to psytrance): partly because people are just more serious about the music and less about trying to hook up, partly because even if you're the world's worst dancer it won't matter because people will just assume you're having a great time because you've taken lots of drugs. Be considerate, give people space, and stay hydrated. Once you've found your groove - once you've found yourself whooping as the beat drops, once you've found that weird moment where the dancefloor moves in unison and dissolved yourself into it, once you've exchanged exhausted happy grins with the person next to you as the lights go up at 7am - then, if you want to, you can start focussing on technique, on learning new tricks and moves, but it doesn't really matter by then. It's not a competitive sport; the point is not to be good at it, the point is to do it. Drugs are neither necessary nor sufficient.
sticksmite 4y ago
What about programming a dance? https://youtu.be/2z9XTeeA43o https://youtu.be/2z9XTeeA43o
- Demonsult 4y ago
  I'll one-up that with a computer science dance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3San3uKKHgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3San3uKKHgg
martindbp 4y ago
I don't look down on dancing, but like with everything really people are just different, there's no Tabula Rasa. No amount of trying will make me enjoy dance (believe me I've tried), just as my wife who is a dancer will never consider an afternoon spent reading a sci-fi novel to be the epitome of happiness. Unfortunately dance is something that pops up at parties and other occasions, and it's implied that you're weird if you don't participate.
- darkerside 4y ago
  You can't change anybody, you can only influence them to change. You can't learn anything from a book that you didn't already know. I don't know how to say it exactly, but I've seen enough people change, and how that happens, to know that you and your wife's tastes may change over time. You don't have to be open to the possibility of you don't want to be, but it does remind me of another phrase: I'm not a math person.
  - forgotpwd16 4y ago
    >You can't change anybody, you can only influence them to change. Everyone and everything influences who we're regardless of their intentions. What is strange is, although you may already be happy and fulfilled, people feel it's their duty to "influence" you to change because their worldview cannot accept you. In their mind they think "you cannot possibly not like this thing that I love." Well dears, it's possible and you should accept that not everyone is like you. >You can't learn anything from a book that you didn't already know. Let's start that this very much depends on the kind of book. Putting that aside, literature isn't meant to convey knowledge in first place. Rather literature is meant to convey emotions and imagination. >but I've seen enough people change People may change. But that doesn't make right other people to try and force this change. >You don't have to be open to the possibility of you don't want to be Sorry but I've hard time understanding this. Do you mean "at least try"? What if they tried and didn't liked it? Do they've to try indefinitely because some people cannot accept the fact that they may not like it? >I'm not a math person. Huh! See this is usually said when someone has hard time with math. Which is entirely distinct thing from enjoying math. Have known many people that were good in math but that didn't mean they'll solve math problems in their free time. Similarly people can be good at dance but that doesn't mean they enjoy dancing.
scotty79 4y ago
For people who don't enjoy dancing. Try playing Beat Saber in VR. I think it's closest thing to dancing I am actually enjoying.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
voidhorse 4y ago
Nice article. The commonplace, contemporary understanding of intelligence is hyper reductive, even within the bounds of what we'd consider intellectualism. For instance, I know many people that are quite good at solving problems in a specific scientific domain but who lack almost all appreciation and knowledge of art and literature. It hasn't registered to them as important or requisite for being "intelligent". In many cases our notion of intelligence is really just "knowledge that supports my income" which is a real shame. In spite of the existence of the internet, which you'd think would drive a neo-renaissance, where the average person takes a healthy interest in almost everything, no such renaissance spirit is to be found in most corners of contemporary life (personally, I think it's because the amount of information available and speed of access has actually proved too overwhelming, letting other incentives and structures (mass entertainment, social media) win our attention instead).
tpoacher 4y ago
The Real Crazy Frog Bros disagree with you: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGGoeDrjL5g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGGoeDrjL5g
favaq 4y ago
If you find dancing hard or stupid you are not drunk enough.
darkerside 4y ago
Why is this flagged? Genuinely curious. Do people feel attacked because it doesn't give with their worldview?
- grapesurgeon 4y ago
  i think it might just be due to not being considered relevant to what hn posts are usually about, and is just an emotionally charged blogpost.
frodetb 4y ago
I've been surprised to find myself making multiple similar pivots over the years. A lot of what I dismissed in my younger years as lacking of intellectual merit, I have come around to value much more highly than I ever would have guessed. It's funny, but dancing in particular has been my greatest fear for as long as I can remember, so I've always done my best to avoid situations where I'd be forced to do it. Not only did I not see the point or appeal, but I deeply dreaded the prospect of going on the dance floor. As fears go, however, this one is quite innocent, and also fairly simple to face. And how empowering wouldn't it be, to overcome ones biggest obstacle? So not too long ago, when I was invited to a dance class by a group of friends, I decided I'd go, just the one time, as some sort of exposure therapy. The dance was tango. As I had expected, I was anxious, stressed, and scared through the entire class (although it was very helpful having the excuse that it was my first day). What I did not expect was how fascinating the dance would turn out to be. How beautiful and elegant, yet also technical and structured. I saw our instructors dancing some dead simple improvised steps, and somehow, despite not being planned out at all, they were totally synchronized. There had to be some brain-to-brain communication going on, a sort of body language that I could not yet perceive or understand, but that I knew I wanted to learn. That was six months ago, and since then I've gone to some sort of tango thing multiple times a week, every week I've been able to. I'm still nervous on my way to a class, and it takes a few dances to warm up and get loose each session, but I'm starting to enjoy it and feel like I'm actually dancing. In the process, I've come to understand more deeply what people mean when they say "there's more to life than X".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
rvieira 4y ago
Immanuel Kant famously said > There are two things that don't have to mean anything, one is music and the other is laughter. Surely there are more. Dancing is perhaps one of them.
Gualdrapo 4y ago
When was a little kid I was picked on a lot, even bullied by my dance "teacher" - she was in what in the US is high school but somehow was "teaching" kids. I was really bad a it, but to make things worse, she yelled at me in my own ears for being bad at it. Mocked me in front of the other kids and such. I ended not only still being bad at dancing, but hating everything related to it. As dancing was part of the curriculum, I had to endure the trauma for 6 more years. I never did it anymore, nor tried to learn it whatsoever. For a tropical country like this it could sound like nuts, but despite some people looking you down for not doing it, I haven't had much trouble for that in my adult life.
jvanderbot 4y ago
I'm terrified just reading this article. But TFA's right of course.
lamontcg 4y ago
As a cave/tech diver I've noticed that intellectuals are often have some of the hardest times in training due to overthinking. They'll tend to focus on trying to perfect the little details in training and miss the big picture and failed to K.I.S.S. and argue about theory and resist accepting simple rules. I used to really like watching Deadliest Catch because I grew up in Kodiak and that's a good example of an environment where an intellectual would generally fail pretty badly. You don't need to be particularly clever, you need to understand what is going to kill you (ropes in particular) and to never pick up your feet. It is an environment where you need to be smart enough to follow the rules, and just "dumb" enough not to argue and question them. Embracing shutting up and being dumb is something that intellectuals generally resist identifying as a virtue. [ And I'd argue that the infestation of contrarianism-for-contrarianisms-sake that infects HN is a larger symptom of that psychological bias -- so many people doing so much work convincing themselves that they're very clever by rejecting all conventional wisdom ]
- QuantumGood 4y ago
  Less commonly but more dangerously, an excess of overconfidence also makes poor learners—they take action faster than most, but get into trouble due to failure to realize all they have to learn.
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    That might actually be more common? That's definitely the one that I everyone needs to guard against, since it also strikes as complacency for the intermediate person.
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  I definitely resonate with this description. I need a strong foundation of information and intuition to learn and do things. So, I need to dive into the frequently glossed over mechanics of everything I learn. It's part of why I tend to prefer learning new things alone. I know I'm going to take a long time, and I know I'm going to do a ton of dumb, small, incremental testing to build my foundation. But I don't think it's necessarily overthinking. Maybe for the immediate context, but not for any context. I know just "doing what I'm told" will likely work 99% of the time. What I'm interested in is why does it work, how do I raise my confidence for the remaining 1%, and making sure I understand the underlying mechanics of things so I can make good judgement calls when situations arise.

64 points by stasbar 4y ago

50 4y ago

> There is nothing more notable in Socrates than that he found time, when he was an old man, to learn music and dancing, and thought it time well spent. (Michel de Montaigne, Essais) Albert Camus dancing (Life Magazine): https://coreyrobin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/albert-camus-dancing.jpg https://coreyrobin.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/albert-cam...

dekhn 4y ago
Albert Camus dancing? That's absurd.

AstixAndBelix 4y ago

Dancing is just a game we play, like everything else we do. Once you see it like that it all makes sense

grafelic 4y ago
So when I'm dancing alone, which I do occasionally, I play a game? What game is that?
- bornfreddy 4y ago
  Solitaire. ;-)
- BulgarianIdiot 4y ago
  Games are not always group activity. The game is alignment & synchronization. Animals also dance. Parrots are quite good at it.
- is_true 4y ago
  Solitaire 3D
- VoodooJuJu 4y ago
  Dancing
nordsieck 4y ago
> Dancing is just a game we play, like everything else we do. Once you see it like that it all makes sense IMO, this is just not true. There is something really special about synchronized action with other people. Be it marching, singing, chanting, etc. It engenders trust, builds community, and generally builds relationships in a way that I don't think anything else does. This isn't a strictly good thing either - my observation is that dancer relationships tend to be... unstable. And partner dance is one of the most developed and interesting method of synchronized action that people have created[1]. It's fundamentally a different sort of activity to listening to poetry, playing basketball, attending a lecture, or writing a CRUD app. --- 1. Orchestra/band rivals dance here - certainly there is opportunity for much greater scale at high levels of complexity. Of course, you have to give up touch to get that.
- sublinear 4y ago
  > It's fundamentally a different sort of activity to listening to poetry, playing basketball, attending a lecture, or writing a CRUD app. I disagree. Team sports (playing basketball) are just as much about choreography and also the connection between dance and all other activities you mentioned. The feeling of being part of a "well-oiled machine" is the sense that the choreography is successful. This feels good because most of the time a group of people wouldn't care for doing what you expect. It's affirmation.
  - nordsieck 4y ago
    > I disagree. Team sports (playing basketball) are just as much about choreography and also the connection between dance and all other activities you mentioned. The feeling of being part of a "well-oiled machine" is the sense that the choreography is successful. This feels good because most of the time a group of people wouldn't care for doing what you expect. It's affirmation. I've done team sports and all I can say is: it's not the same[1]. When I'm on a team, we're all trying to achieve the same goal, but we aren't one body. There's no sense that everyone is acting as a single being. Beyond that, I guess, I can't really give much of a logical argument - it's just something that I've experienced. And others may disagree, which is fine too. My own personal theory is that there is no innate way the body can tell what is self and what is other. And synchronized movement is a sort of hack that tricks people into partially accepting other people as self. But that's just a wild theory I have and has no real backing that I know of. --- 1. I suspect that high level military drill probably would engender the same feelings, but I suspect that that's not what you meant when you mentioned "team sports".
tgv 4y ago
Huizinga [1], I'm sure. Literary bollocks. It's a contrived intellectual effort, whose only goal can be to impress. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Ludens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Ludens

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draw_down 4y ago

[dead]

marcodiego 4y ago

Some thoughts: I like Douglas Adams phrase that says "I'd be happy than right any day". Also, about the hint "If programming is your dance, and you love doing it, then do it professionally" consider that turning something fun into a job may make it dull. In my life I became much "lighter" when I learned to don't care so much if people think I'm right. I basically stopped being https://m.xkcd.com/386/ https://m.xkcd.com/386/ . My advice is be somewhat eclectic and respect other people tastes. One more thing, and this is something I heard from someone else and could confirm myself: once you pass the stage of knowing your body and reading other people's non verbal communication, dance is purely algorithmic with a bit of Markov chain to decide the next step; we, TI/CS people, are actually the best ones doing it.

is_true 4y ago
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day"

sublinear 4y ago

> If programming is your dance, and you love doing it, then do it professionally, but this is where your dance has taken you. I wish writing was the author's "dance". Dancing tends to not be the best metaphor for anything in particular. Dancing is just dancing.

kubb 4y ago

It's common for poorly adjusted people to develop a sense of superiority as a defence mechanism.

serverholic 4y ago
Or perhaps people are different and they find themselves pressured and bullied by “normal” people.
- kubb 4y ago
  It's ok to be different, but thinking your better is often unhealthy and a symptom of trauma.
  - serverholic 4y ago
    My issue is the claim that these people are poorly adjusted. Perhaps these people are responding to other peoples sense of superiority. These other people don’t get called out because they are “normal” and we assume that normalcy is automatically superior.
hcks 4y ago
Yes, and it is sad to see people thinking that something as universal as dancing (that literally exist in every culture in some form) is "not for them". It sadly implies that this person went through bullying and rejection.
- scotty79 4y ago
  You could say the same about religion and a lot of other things. Still, no, thank you.
- maleldil 4y ago
  Why is it so difficult for you to accept that others don't share your taste? I've never been into dancing but decided to take some classes with friends because that sounded fun, and realised that I truly don't like dancing. It has nothing to do with rejection. This claim that "you poor thing, if you hadn't been rejected you'd see how good this is" sounds really condescending.

Darkstryder 4y ago

> I’ve never heard of a family being divided because its members dance different styles, but I am in one divided by political and religious opinions. Being a dancer (lindy hop) with a large number of dancers in my social circle, dancing is actually a frequent source of tension among many couples around me. Couples splitting up because one is heavily more invested in dancing than the other is a common occurence. And don’t get me started on lindy hop vs west coast swing.

nordsieck 4y ago
> And don’t get me started on lindy hop vs west coast swing. The sad thing is that (for the most part) I don't think the westies really hate on the lindy hoppers much. You can see, admittedly older, clips[1] of dancers throwing in a bit of lindy, balboa, and shag in top level comps. Of course, this is Sylvia Sykes, so maybe that's an exception. --- 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOWt0oyx9k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psOWt0oyx9k
pizza234 4y ago
> And don’t get me started on lindy hop vs west coast swing. I'm puzzled where this comes from, since they're entirely different scenes. On a social dance night, or say, a festival, one may find Blue/Balboa/Lindy Hop (and possibly Shag), but hardly Lindy Hop and West Coast Swing, since the music is different. Edit: Actually, the message that the article sends is exactly what happens - dancers try other dances, then they share how they've integrated them into their dance, or how interesting is anyway to try something different - as opposed to intellectual condescension. > Couples splitting up because one is heavily more invested in dancing than the other is a common occurence. There surely are occurrences of this, but I wouldn't describe the phenomenon as common. It implies that a romantic relationship is based entirely on dancing, which I don't think is frequent; also, the vast majority of the dancers leave the scene within 3/4 years. I've personally lived the "mismatch of interest", but it ended up like any other separate hobby in the context of a couple.
- bradlys 4y ago
  I’d add also that this is really only an issue for some women. Most men I’ve met end up leaving the dance scene once they have a partner - if said partner doesn’t dance. It’s reflected by polling the crowd. There are way more women in relationships out dancing than there are men out dancing in relationships. Single men dominate the numbers when it comes to dancing. This is why I don’t really recommend it to most men as a way to meet women. It’s lopsided numbers and it’s hard to stand out in a good way as a beginner - in most dance scenes anyway. That said, if you have a lot of time to kill and are big on learning new skills… it can pan out but it’s a multi-year endeavor that often doesn’t go anywhere.

htk 4y ago

Great article, but hard to be internalized by those who could benefit from it the most (me some years ago).

bsnnkv 4y ago

Over the past two years I have become quite a competent swing dancer. In order to do this, I've had to practice (of course), but also make friends and build community with people from all different walks of life and professions. We got to know each other a lot more slowly, some might even say superficially, but these slow burn relationships with more conversation in dance than in words have become some of the deepest and most meaningful friendships in my adult life. If I could have my time all over again, I would start dancing as early as possible in life.

Trasmatta 4y ago

There's something about dancing that people get really weird about if you don't want to participate. As if it's their god given duty to convince you that, no, you really DO like dancing, and you'll have a great time if you just loosen up and have fun. I wish people would just respect "no thank you" and stop trying to push people to do something they clearly don't want. As is, I have to avoid events with dancing. And no, it's not an elitist "I'm just so much smarter than the people dancing" thing, like the post seems to imply.

throw_pm23 4y ago
What about those who didn't want at first, then tried it after some nudging, and ended up enjoying it?
- RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm 4y ago
  In my experience, if you tell one of the dance people that you have tried for over 10 years and still don't like it, they will very likely not even accept that. They will believe they can show you better and make you like it, and thus will try to obnoxiously persuade you to dance with them. It's just rude. And the attitude of yours is also part of the problem: Believing that somehow grown up people are incapable of learning the very basic fact "dancing can be fun" on their own and need to be told about it and nudged towards it. No, they don't, they know it can be enjoyable, and they have tried, and it isn't for them, and they don't need to be educated any further.
- Trasmatta 4y ago
  A little nudging seems okay, but it often crosses the line with dancing, to the point where people get physically dragged to the dance floor. A little gentle nudging followed by respecting the other person's choice is the way to go. But some people can't seem to compute the fact that there are legitimate reasons some people don't enjoy dancing, and take it as an almost personal affront. If I'm playing Smash Brothers at a party, I'll totally try to get people involved, even if they don't look interested. But some people don't enjoy video games, and some people just don't like fighting games, so I don't physically force the controller into their hands, claiming "you'll have fun if you just loosen up!"

unxdfa 4y ago

I am reminded of this suddenly https://youtu.be/6ofYNHRcspM https://youtu.be/6ofYNHRcspM

iamflimflam1 4y ago
Funny - I went straight to this https://youtu.be/_au0UUHI2aI https://youtu.be/_au0UUHI2aI

thriftwy 4y ago

I'm just not sure the common modern people dance at all. They go to the dance floor and do some weird random movements listening to overly loud music of grossly low quality. Whether people a century or two ago has interpreted this as dance or as some mental conditon is an open question. I'm all for ball dance or irish dance but not for the club variety.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Yeah what folks do nowadays is more like, I don't know, what people did for a million years before courtly Renaissance pedants started codifying it so somebody could be cooler than another person.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  Nope! For a million years people spent a lot of effort on culture which meant their tunes (drum rhymes) and dance movements were quite advanced. We live in epoch of deliberate primitivism.
  - cma 4y ago
    We found dance foot pattern fossils or something?
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      We know a few near-neolithic tribes right now.
      - cma 4y ago
        We don't have good evidence for cognitively modern (vs anatomically) humans, cognitively modern including any known current tribes, beyond 200,000 years or so, other than I think there was some recent stuff finding decorative patterns a bit further back that might indicate it goes back more.
  - 4y ago

dav_Oz 4y ago

Incidentally a helpful dichotomy in this regard is laid out in Nietzsche's first major work: The Birth of Tragedy Out of the Spirit of Music (he was a superb classical philologist by trade and one of the youngest tenured "Classics" professors at the age of 24): Apollonian/Dionysian [0] >Dancing forces you to be here and now—connecting you with your and your partner’s body. Dancing is a means of irrational communication. Dancing is a conversation between two people where the means of communication are your bodies. Personally, I wouldn't focus on partner dance. In my experience those tend to be over-analytical and strict. It is more approachable to immerse yourself in dancing all by yourself and/or in group dance (more akin to ritualistic dances inducing trance-like states). [0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian

giardini 4y ago
>"...laid out in Nietzsche's first major work..."< Now that you bring it up, does it help? That is, does dancing help you get laid?

maxrev17 4y ago

Tough gig on hacker news with this one. Unless it's logical thinking to prove superiority, you've lost!

rfrey 4y ago
This was a strange comment to come across after reading 20 comments seriously engaging with the essay.

TAKEMYMONEY 4y ago

Lipsky: You dance? David Foster Wallace : Uh huh. I’ve just discovered in the last few years that I really like it. Although I’m still not very good. Lipsky: Where do you go, a club? David: This Baptist church. Lipsky: Why there? David: Because Baptists can dance. -- from the film The End of the Tour

twawaaay 4y ago

> Dancing is a great test of what part of your brain dominates. Good dancing is when you stop thinking and just let your feelings lead. Yah, that's why best dancers in the world never train and prepare their routines. Honestly. Good dancing is when you stop thinking, AFTER you have spent time preparing enough so you don't have to think about it anymore. I wonder if people watching TV or Youtube get the wrong impression. They see people making things look easy. Nice poses, nice makeup, nice dresses, light moves. What they don't see is countless hours over many years that went into preparing everything. ** I am an amateur runner. People sometimes tell me I am a natural. I honestly look well when running, no hunching, positively bouncy, light steps. No exertion. Easy breathing. I try to explain that I spent couple years just fixing my running mechanics, one step at a time. Strengthening my muscles and tendons so that I can move my weight to forefoot and recover more energy when running, running with a metronome to get my cadence right, learning to breathe deeply and in sync with my strides, running strides to fix my mechanics when at full speed, bringing my attention to what my hands are doing so that they are relaxed and not moving to the sides too much, making sure my foot contacts pavement under me and not before me, making sure my heels move high up behind me, forcing myself to run straight and look straight, doing strength exercises at home so that my core muscles are strong enough to support good posture while running, learning to regulate my speed by tilting forward, etc. Even silly things like paying attention to the weather and clothing for the weather. I see so many people put on way too much clothes when it gets just a tad colder and then look visibly uncomfortable throughout the run. When I started running I did it, too. Then I made a running log where I noted the outside weather conditions and how I felt through the run and over time I learned what I exactly need to put on depending on the weather and the run I am making so I feel just right. No, things don't come naturally -- at least not to most people. And I think it is good news. Almost everybody can do almost everything. The only thing that is blocking me from being a good dancer is whether I want to invest the time to become one. I don't. I can relax knowing it is up to me to decide what I can achieve and what I want to spend my efforts on.

darkerside 4y ago
> Good dancing is when you stop thinking, AFTER you have spent time preparing enough so you don't have to think about it anymore. Well, yeah, that's what OP said. Good dancing can happen after lots of training or none at all.

somewhereoutth 4y ago

"A vertical expression of a horizontal desire" But really it is about enjoying music (and thus perhaps celebrating life) with your whole body, often in community with others similarly enjoying.

doop 4y ago

Great article! Also: > I’ve never heard of a family being divided because its members dance different styles Anyone who believes this needs to go watch Strictly Ballroom (1992) with all possible urgency. I was also somewhat sceptical about dancing until in my early 20s I made the discovery that nightclubs were not necessarily just places where people went to get shitfaced, but that there were places run by and for enthusiasts of the music - that going out and dancing for eight hours straight was not just something you could do but that was incredibly enjoyable as well. A huge amount of what has been good in my life since then has, one way or another, come from going out and dancing. Amongst (many) other things, I'm confident that I'm a better programmer for it: the usual arguments (blah blah, lowers stress, default mode network) deployed in favour of meditation also apply to dancing. It won't work if you're forced into it, and I don't think it's cool to do so, but that's why people can be so evangelistic about it.

dorchadas 4y ago
Any advice on where to start for someone who'd like to learn to dance better at nightclubs?
- doop 4y ago
  Find a style of music you enjoy listening to, then go to a club that plays it, and start dancing. Keep doing that. You might find that your taste shifts a bit over time, and that's fine, and it's fine to shop around a bit: the point is to try to find an environment where you can lose yourself in the music. If you're very self-conscious about your dancing then try to find a more underground scene (I started off in industrial/EBM and moved on to psytrance): partly because people are just more serious about the music and less about trying to hook up, partly because even if you're the world's worst dancer it won't matter because people will just assume you're having a great time because you've taken lots of drugs. Be considerate, give people space, and stay hydrated. Once you've found your groove - once you've found yourself whooping as the beat drops, once you've found that weird moment where the dancefloor moves in unison and dissolved yourself into it, once you've exchanged exhausted happy grins with the person next to you as the lights go up at 7am - then, if you want to, you can start focussing on technique, on learning new tricks and moves, but it doesn't really matter by then. It's not a competitive sport; the point is not to be good at it, the point is to do it. Drugs are neither necessary nor sufficient.

sticksmite 4y ago

What about programming a dance? https://youtu.be/2z9XTeeA43o https://youtu.be/2z9XTeeA43o

Demonsult 4y ago
I'll one-up that with a computer science dance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3San3uKKHgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3San3uKKHgg

martindbp 4y ago

I don't look down on dancing, but like with everything really people are just different, there's no Tabula Rasa. No amount of trying will make me enjoy dance (believe me I've tried), just as my wife who is a dancer will never consider an afternoon spent reading a sci-fi novel to be the epitome of happiness. Unfortunately dance is something that pops up at parties and other occasions, and it's implied that you're weird if you don't participate.

darkerside 4y ago
You can't change anybody, you can only influence them to change. You can't learn anything from a book that you didn't already know. I don't know how to say it exactly, but I've seen enough people change, and how that happens, to know that you and your wife's tastes may change over time. You don't have to be open to the possibility of you don't want to be, but it does remind me of another phrase: I'm not a math person.
- forgotpwd16 4y ago
  >You can't change anybody, you can only influence them to change. Everyone and everything influences who we're regardless of their intentions. What is strange is, although you may already be happy and fulfilled, people feel it's their duty to "influence" you to change because their worldview cannot accept you. In their mind they think "you cannot possibly not like this thing that I love." Well dears, it's possible and you should accept that not everyone is like you. >You can't learn anything from a book that you didn't already know. Let's start that this very much depends on the kind of book. Putting that aside, literature isn't meant to convey knowledge in first place. Rather literature is meant to convey emotions and imagination. >but I've seen enough people change People may change. But that doesn't make right other people to try and force this change. >You don't have to be open to the possibility of you don't want to be Sorry but I've hard time understanding this. Do you mean "at least try"? What if they tried and didn't liked it? Do they've to try indefinitely because some people cannot accept the fact that they may not like it? >I'm not a math person. Huh! See this is usually said when someone has hard time with math. Which is entirely distinct thing from enjoying math. Have known many people that were good in math but that didn't mean they'll solve math problems in their free time. Similarly people can be good at dance but that doesn't mean they enjoy dancing.

scotty79 4y ago

For people who don't enjoy dancing. Try playing Beat Saber in VR. I think it's closest thing to dancing I am actually enjoying.

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voidhorse 4y ago

Nice article. The commonplace, contemporary understanding of intelligence is hyper reductive, even within the bounds of what we'd consider intellectualism. For instance, I know many people that are quite good at solving problems in a specific scientific domain but who lack almost all appreciation and knowledge of art and literature. It hasn't registered to them as important or requisite for being "intelligent". In many cases our notion of intelligence is really just "knowledge that supports my income" which is a real shame. In spite of the existence of the internet, which you'd think would drive a neo-renaissance, where the average person takes a healthy interest in almost everything, no such renaissance spirit is to be found in most corners of contemporary life (personally, I think it's because the amount of information available and speed of access has actually proved too overwhelming, letting other incentives and structures (mass entertainment, social media) win our attention instead).

tpoacher 4y ago

The Real Crazy Frog Bros disagree with you: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGGoeDrjL5g https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGGoeDrjL5g

favaq 4y ago

If you find dancing hard or stupid you are not drunk enough.

darkerside 4y ago

Why is this flagged? Genuinely curious. Do people feel attacked because it doesn't give with their worldview?

grapesurgeon 4y ago
i think it might just be due to not being considered relevant to what hn posts are usually about, and is just an emotionally charged blogpost.

frodetb 4y ago

I've been surprised to find myself making multiple similar pivots over the years. A lot of what I dismissed in my younger years as lacking of intellectual merit, I have come around to value much more highly than I ever would have guessed. It's funny, but dancing in particular has been my greatest fear for as long as I can remember, so I've always done my best to avoid situations where I'd be forced to do it. Not only did I not see the point or appeal, but I deeply dreaded the prospect of going on the dance floor. As fears go, however, this one is quite innocent, and also fairly simple to face. And how empowering wouldn't it be, to overcome ones biggest obstacle? So not too long ago, when I was invited to a dance class by a group of friends, I decided I'd go, just the one time, as some sort of exposure therapy. The dance was tango. As I had expected, I was anxious, stressed, and scared through the entire class (although it was very helpful having the excuse that it was my first day). What I did not expect was how fascinating the dance would turn out to be. How beautiful and elegant, yet also technical and structured. I saw our instructors dancing some dead simple improvised steps, and somehow, despite not being planned out at all, they were totally synchronized. There had to be some brain-to-brain communication going on, a sort of body language that I could not yet perceive or understand, but that I knew I wanted to learn. That was six months ago, and since then I've gone to some sort of tango thing multiple times a week, every week I've been able to. I'm still nervous on my way to a class, and it takes a few dances to warm up and get loose each session, but I'm starting to enjoy it and feel like I'm actually dancing. In the process, I've come to understand more deeply what people mean when they say "there's more to life than X".

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rvieira 4y ago

Immanuel Kant famously said > There are two things that don't have to mean anything, one is music and the other is laughter. Surely there are more. Dancing is perhaps one of them.

Gualdrapo 4y ago

When was a little kid I was picked on a lot, even bullied by my dance "teacher" - she was in what in the US is high school but somehow was "teaching" kids. I was really bad a it, but to make things worse, she yelled at me in my own ears for being bad at it. Mocked me in front of the other kids and such. I ended not only still being bad at dancing, but hating everything related to it. As dancing was part of the curriculum, I had to endure the trauma for 6 more years. I never did it anymore, nor tried to learn it whatsoever. For a tropical country like this it could sound like nuts, but despite some people looking you down for not doing it, I haven't had much trouble for that in my adult life.

jvanderbot 4y ago

I'm terrified just reading this article. But TFA's right of course.

lamontcg 4y ago

As a cave/tech diver I've noticed that intellectuals are often have some of the hardest times in training due to overthinking. They'll tend to focus on trying to perfect the little details in training and miss the big picture and failed to K.I.S.S. and argue about theory and resist accepting simple rules. I used to really like watching Deadliest Catch because I grew up in Kodiak and that's a good example of an environment where an intellectual would generally fail pretty badly. You don't need to be particularly clever, you need to understand what is going to kill you (ropes in particular) and to never pick up your feet. It is an environment where you need to be smart enough to follow the rules, and just "dumb" enough not to argue and question them. Embracing shutting up and being dumb is something that intellectuals generally resist identifying as a virtue. [ And I'd argue that the infestation of contrarianism-for-contrarianisms-sake that infects HN is a larger symptom of that psychological bias -- so many people doing so much work convincing themselves that they're very clever by rejecting all conventional wisdom ]

QuantumGood 4y ago
Less commonly but more dangerously, an excess of overconfidence also makes poor learners—they take action faster than most, but get into trouble due to failure to realize all they have to learn.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  That might actually be more common? That's definitely the one that I everyone needs to guard against, since it also strikes as complacency for the intermediate person.
xboxnolifes 4y ago
I definitely resonate with this description. I need a strong foundation of information and intuition to learn and do things. So, I need to dive into the frequently glossed over mechanics of everything I learn. It's part of why I tend to prefer learning new things alone. I know I'm going to take a long time, and I know I'm going to do a ton of dumb, small, incremental testing to build my foundation. But I don't think it's necessarily overthinking. Maybe for the immediate context, but not for any context. I know just "doing what I'm told" will likely work 99% of the time. What I'm interested in is why does it work, how do I raise my confidence for the remaining 1%, and making sure I understand the underlying mechanics of things so I can make good judgement calls when situations arise.