13 ms·

How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century? (2021)

127 points by weird_user 4y ago

WeylandYutani 4y ago
I'm currently reading a book about US submarine operations in WW2. By 1945 the Japanese had lost so many cargo ships that they started using sailing ships again.
Gwypaas 4y ago
These newly built traditional ships are simply insignificant in the face of the volume of goods transported globally. They are passenger vessels for people who want to experience forgotten time while also delivering some feel-good. Definitely a viable business, but it does not replace global logistics. The EcoClipper in the article is said to take 500 tons of cargo, that is 23 TEUs (Twenty-foot equivalent unit) [1] by weight. Ever Given the ship that got stuck in the Suez canal carries 20 000 TEUs. That is by volume. Not all can be fully loaded by weight, but still. There is a factor of about 1000 between them. Add on the reduced speed for the EcoClipper, and you need ~4 000 sail ships to replace it. Now we haven't even gotten into cargo handling since the EcoClipper can not easily be unloaded directly by crane. Simply, it is too low scale. What is truly interesting is, for example, the Oceanbird program by Wallenius and Alfa Laval [2]. That is making Ro-Ro vessels aided by the wind, ensuring that you get the efficiency gains and hit the slot times in port. The Ro-Ro, Roll-on, Roll-off, part is important since that means you do not clash with unloading requirements coming from cranes. The shipping industry is also looking into synthetic fuels and hydrogen since the infrastructure is relatively centralized, and they rely on the energetic density of chemical fuels. Where the trips are measured in hours rather than days or weeks batteries are being deployed. A nice short film from the latter parts of the era of sail is "Around Cape Horn" from 1929, when the narrator worked on one of the large four-masted barques. [3] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foot_equivalent_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foot_equivalent_unit [2]: https://www.theoceanbird.com/blog/orcelle-horizon/ https://www.theoceanbird.com/blog/orcelle-horizon/ [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tuTKhqWZso https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tuTKhqWZso
- _hcuq 4y ago
  Nobody is claiming that sailing ships will solve the environmental crisis. But neither will minor improvements to Ro-Ro fuel efficiency.
- gvb 4y ago
  At the end of the article, after the picture "The mizzen of the 'Grace Harwar'; view aft from the main crosstrees", is the calculation: The amount of cargo that was traded across the oceans in 2019 equals the freight capacity of 22.4 million EcoClippers. Assuming the EcoClipper500 can make 2-3 trips per year, we would need to build and operate at least 7.5 million ships, with a total crew of at least 90 million people.
  - detourdog 4y ago
    Doesn't sound beyond human capability and I would rather work on a EcoClipper than Amazon.
    - leesalminen 4y ago
      At 2-3 trips per year that means spending 4-6 months at sea per trip. That’s a lot of time away from family. I would definitely rather work for Amazon and see my family every night.
      - detourdog 4y ago
        Sounds like there are plenty of workers for everyone.
      - Infernal 4y ago
        Folks who do this sort of thing tend to only work half the year. So you make one of those trips, and spend the other half of the year at home w/ your family full time.
    - nradov 4y ago
      Would you still rather work on a EcoClipper if they pay you less that $11 a day? That's about the starting wage for entry-level seamen on foreign registered merchant ships. Sailing ships would have to pay even less than that in order to be cost competitive. Outside of maybe a few twee luxury goods, shippers aren't willing to pay more for the privilege of having their goods moved by sail.
lelag 4y ago
Off-topic but that first picture circa 1920 of the 4 sailors up on the mast is such a storm is amazing. It commands respect to the work and life of those men.
- matthewmcg 4y ago
  Many have called the sailing ship era the time of wooden ships and iron men. I'm not sure where this phrase was first used, but this website attributes it to a 1930 poem: https://www.madisonhistory.org/madisons-iron-men/ https://www.madisonhistory.org/madisons-iron-men/
- gns24 4y ago
  I can recommend this film from one of the last commercial sail ships rounding Cape Horn in 1928 during some big storms, narrated by an experienced captain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLzBDhilDL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLzBDhilDL0
V__ 4y ago
> then the EcoClipper500 would have a carbon footprint of about 2 grammes of CO2 per tonne-kilometre of cargo [...] This is roughly five times less than the carbon footprint of a container ship (10 grammes CO2/tonne-km) and three times less than the carbon footprint of a bulk-carrier (6 grammes CO2/tonne-km). Sadly, this doesn't seem like a lot, to be honest. Especially, for all the downsides a smaller ship has,
- ragebol 4y ago
  And assumes a 50 year life time. That sounds optimistically long, although I have no idea how long a conventional container ship lasts.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    I think 50 years is at the longer side of ship lifetime but not especially an outlier. The big commissioning fleets sell them after a couple decades and replace them with new. The secondhand owner refits for a different purpose or partially overhaul then runs it for another couple decades. Sometimes a third owner gets some use out of it. They normally go at least 35 years before total decommissioning though, usually longer.
    - smorrebrod 4y ago
      It depends on ship type. For example methane carriers are expected to hit 40 years of lifetime while some low-end bulk carriers are scrapped after only 15 years.
NoGravitas 4y ago
> For example, if 60 people on board the ship would take a daily hot shower – which requires on average 2.1 kilowatt-hours of energy and 76.5 litres of water on land – total electricity use per day would be 126 kWh, more than double the energy the ship produces at a speed of 7.5 knots. I'll note that those figures are for a Hollywood shower, not a Navy shower. A Navy shower uses about 11 liters of water, and I assume energy use is proportional to water use.
mechhacker 4y ago
One thing they don't seem to have mentioned was hydrofoils. It would be more for time critical shipments, but hydrofoils can greatly increase the speed of sailing vessels, but would need proper design for the sea state (such as routes to avoid larger waves, different hydrofoil designs less for speed and more for safety/reliability, etc.). The Olympic windsurf race in 2024 will be the first one with hydrofoils. America's Cup racers with the AC75 class are already on foils, with very high speed (~60mph), sometimes over triple the windspeed. Windsurfers on foils now can triple or quadruple windspeed in light winds. This tech is much more common now, and has exploded in the last 10 years in various different water sports. It would just need to be adapted to a different need than just racing. AC-75 racing class: https://youtu.be/OQsXDdGxk3U https://youtu.be/OQsXDdGxk3U IQFoil racing class: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAKfbk_kB_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAKfbk_kB_4
- nradov 4y ago
  It is physically impossible to build a hydrofoil sailing vessel that can carry cargo across oceans. Those racing boats are tiny with zero cargo capacity, require relatively large crews for the size, and take huge amounts of maintenance. The designs do not scale, not are they capable of safely handling the same weather conditions as large merchant ships. Y Combinator portfolio company Boundary Layer Technologies tried to build a diesel powered hydrofoil cargo vessel to target the market niche between air cargo and slow displacement hull cargo ships. The basic technology probably could have worked but they failed due to lack of any real customer demand.
  - ianburrell 4y ago
    I am not sure regular hydrofoil cargo ships are practical. My understanding is that hydrofoils don't do well in high seas. All the passenger ferries I know about are in coastal waters. It may not be possible to have one that can cross ocean and deal with storms. The Boundary Layer proposal is pretty small, 200 tons and 20 TEU capacity. It would have the same scaling problems as the sailboat in article. Is there a market for slightly faster shipping? The hydrofoil is 40 knots which is 6 days from China, container ships are 20 knots and 11 days. If there was a market for faster shipping, would expect to see 30 knot ships. I bet the really urgent needs air and current cargo aircraft are sufficient.
somewhereoutth 4y ago
More precisely, how to replicate designs from the 19th century. A shame, because modern materials should allow more radical designs - for example as used in the Americas's Cup competition nowadays.
- deltarholamda 4y ago
  Carrying cargo is very, very different. America's Cup racers are very light. It's a mistake to apply that technology in a 1-to-1 fashion for large sailing vessels. The boat the America's Cup is named after--"America," natch--crossed the Atlantic for her race. The current America's Cup boats are no good for ocean crossing. For one, there's no room. But the real problems are that the materials are so specific, so complicated, any kind of problem and you're stuck. A canvas sail can be repaired at sea. The weird composite stuff used in AC sails are not quite so resilient. I appreciate the enthusiasm of the modern AC teams (hi Larry!), but these are not good boats. A good boat takes care of her crew. An AC racer will hurt or kill you in a heartbeat if you are not 100% on the ball. That said, some of the wing sail designs may be adaptable with the right materials.
  - blitzar 4y ago
    > I appreciate the enthusiasm of the modern AC teams (hi Larry!), but these are not good boats. I liked the AC class more when it was designers + crews + conditions fighting it out not just programmers.
    - deltarholamda 4y ago
      The rules-lawyering really hurt the sport. It was always a rich man's playground, but now it's gotten ridiculous. Watching a bunch of 15-year-olds compete in Optimist dinghies at your local lake or reservoir is way more fun and entertaining than today's AC, IMO. You just can't shake the feeling that whoever spent the most money wins at the AC, which is boring.
StockHuman 4y ago
Somewhat unrelated, but I adore their ‘solar’ subdomain mirror that runs on solar power alone. It’s fun to see compelling commitment to the ethics espoused by the articles in the very site itself.
- blitzar 4y ago
  There should be a browser extension, similar in principle to the old "https everywhere", that attempts the solar page first, falling back to the coal powered one if the solar one is down.
automatic6131 4y ago
> it’s more likely that a switch to sailing ships is accompanied by a decrease in cargo and passenger traffic, and this has everything to do with scale and speed. A lot of freight and passengers would not be travelling if it were not for the high speeds and low costs of today’s airplanes and container ships. >It would make little sense to transport iPhones parts, Amazon wares, sweatshop clothes, or citytrippers with sailing ships. A sailing ship is more than a technical means of transportation: it implies another view on consumption, production, time, space, leisure, and travel. Yes, of course they beat around the bush with weasel words like "another view on consumption". Let's translate this for what it is: "poor people, you can no longer have luxury goods". The "rethinking" is always telling us that the wealth we've enjoyed as a high energy species should go, only to be given to our "betters" - because they can always afford it. But they rarely ever say this out loud because it's an impossible sell, so they use mealy mouthed euphemisms. Fuck these people, honestly. I don't want to live in a world where, in the name of equality, we take progress from those who have it. Give it to more people.
11001100 4y ago
I enjoyed watching the Netflix documentary "Untold - The Race of the Century" - but of course it shaped sailing ships in the 20th century: https://www.netflix.com/title/81026435 https://www.netflix.com/title/81026435
- WelcomeShorty 4y ago
  Oh that was a blast! Thanks for pointing that out. Besides a great story, it is such a nice icon of the time. What stood out most to me is the "Australia, that little, unknown country" :)
speed_spread 4y ago
> How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century? Late 21st century? Put wheels on the bottom of it...
jlg23 4y ago
The "12 crew and 12 passengers" would, as far as I remember, require one doctor on board. The number of passengers a cargo ship may take without dedicated medical staff was ridiculously low and explains why it is so much harder/expensive to travel on board as a passenger than one would expect. (8 years ago it was $200/day and up)
arh68 4y ago
> Two rowing machines could provide roughly 400 watts of power. If they are operated around the clock in shifts, they could supply the ship with an extra 9.6 kWh of energy per day Rowing 200 watts is not exactly easy. That's like 2:00/- splits, "ramming speed" type power. Half that seems more reasonable. I do like the idea, though, of a sailing ship with ad hoc erg/rowing power.
nickdothutton 4y ago
I think it’s high time these cargo ships were fully automated. At least as far as the point after which the local pilot comes onboard.
- kulahan 4y ago
  It's weird that this isn't already the case. We do it with airplanes, and surely that's much harder simply by virtue of needing to consider three dimensions. I can't imagine it would be difficult to automate steering a ship across the open ocean. You could build something basic and just make the captain handle all the iffy stuff.
  - merry_flame 4y ago
    Autopilot has existed for decades now and works really well, but it doesn't replace a crew, be it only for everything unrelated to navigation, crossing the path of other vessels, etc.

127 points by weird_user 4y ago

I'm currently reading a book about US submarine operations in WW2. By 1945 the Japanese had lost so many cargo ships that they started using sailing ships again.

Gwypaas 4y ago

These newly built traditional ships are simply insignificant in the face of the volume of goods transported globally. They are passenger vessels for people who want to experience forgotten time while also delivering some feel-good. Definitely a viable business, but it does not replace global logistics. The EcoClipper in the article is said to take 500 tons of cargo, that is 23 TEUs (Twenty-foot equivalent unit) [1] by weight. Ever Given the ship that got stuck in the Suez canal carries 20 000 TEUs. That is by volume. Not all can be fully loaded by weight, but still. There is a factor of about 1000 between them. Add on the reduced speed for the EcoClipper, and you need ~4 000 sail ships to replace it. Now we haven't even gotten into cargo handling since the EcoClipper can not easily be unloaded directly by crane. Simply, it is too low scale. What is truly interesting is, for example, the Oceanbird program by Wallenius and Alfa Laval [2]. That is making Ro-Ro vessels aided by the wind, ensuring that you get the efficiency gains and hit the slot times in port. The Ro-Ro, Roll-on, Roll-off, part is important since that means you do not clash with unloading requirements coming from cranes. The shipping industry is also looking into synthetic fuels and hydrogen since the infrastructure is relatively centralized, and they rely on the energetic density of chemical fuels. Where the trips are measured in hours rather than days or weeks batteries are being deployed. A nice short film from the latter parts of the era of sail is "Around Cape Horn" from 1929, when the narrator worked on one of the large four-masted barques. [3] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foot_equivalent_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-foot_equivalent_unit [2]: https://www.theoceanbird.com/blog/orcelle-horizon/ https://www.theoceanbird.com/blog/orcelle-horizon/ [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tuTKhqWZso https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tuTKhqWZso

_hcuq 4y ago
Nobody is claiming that sailing ships will solve the environmental crisis. But neither will minor improvements to Ro-Ro fuel efficiency.
gvb 4y ago
At the end of the article, after the picture "The mizzen of the 'Grace Harwar'; view aft from the main crosstrees", is the calculation: The amount of cargo that was traded across the oceans in 2019 equals the freight capacity of 22.4 million EcoClippers. Assuming the EcoClipper500 can make 2-3 trips per year, we would need to build and operate at least 7.5 million ships, with a total crew of at least 90 million people.
- detourdog 4y ago
  Doesn't sound beyond human capability and I would rather work on a EcoClipper than Amazon.
  - leesalminen 4y ago
    At 2-3 trips per year that means spending 4-6 months at sea per trip. That’s a lot of time away from family. I would definitely rather work for Amazon and see my family every night.
    - detourdog 4y ago
      Sounds like there are plenty of workers for everyone.
    - Infernal 4y ago
      Folks who do this sort of thing tend to only work half the year. So you make one of those trips, and spend the other half of the year at home w/ your family full time.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Would you still rather work on a EcoClipper if they pay you less that $11 a day? That's about the starting wage for entry-level seamen on foreign registered merchant ships. Sailing ships would have to pay even less than that in order to be cost competitive. Outside of maybe a few twee luxury goods, shippers aren't willing to pay more for the privilege of having their goods moved by sail.

lelag 4y ago

Off-topic but that first picture circa 1920 of the 4 sailors up on the mast is such a storm is amazing. It commands respect to the work and life of those men.

matthewmcg 4y ago
Many have called the sailing ship era the time of wooden ships and iron men. I'm not sure where this phrase was first used, but this website attributes it to a 1930 poem: https://www.madisonhistory.org/madisons-iron-men/ https://www.madisonhistory.org/madisons-iron-men/
gns24 4y ago
I can recommend this film from one of the last commercial sail ships rounding Cape Horn in 1928 during some big storms, narrated by an experienced captain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLzBDhilDL0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLzBDhilDL0

V__ 4y ago

> then the EcoClipper500 would have a carbon footprint of about 2 grammes of CO2 per tonne-kilometre of cargo [...] This is roughly five times less than the carbon footprint of a container ship (10 grammes CO2/tonne-km) and three times less than the carbon footprint of a bulk-carrier (6 grammes CO2/tonne-km). Sadly, this doesn't seem like a lot, to be honest. Especially, for all the downsides a smaller ship has,

ragebol 4y ago
And assumes a 50 year life time. That sounds optimistically long, although I have no idea how long a conventional container ship lasts.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  I think 50 years is at the longer side of ship lifetime but not especially an outlier. The big commissioning fleets sell them after a couple decades and replace them with new. The secondhand owner refits for a different purpose or partially overhaul then runs it for another couple decades. Sometimes a third owner gets some use out of it. They normally go at least 35 years before total decommissioning though, usually longer.
  - smorrebrod 4y ago
    It depends on ship type. For example methane carriers are expected to hit 40 years of lifetime while some low-end bulk carriers are scrapped after only 15 years.

NoGravitas 4y ago

> For example, if 60 people on board the ship would take a daily hot shower – which requires on average 2.1 kilowatt-hours of energy and 76.5 litres of water on land – total electricity use per day would be 126 kWh, more than double the energy the ship produces at a speed of 7.5 knots. I'll note that those figures are for a Hollywood shower, not a Navy shower. A Navy shower uses about 11 liters of water, and I assume energy use is proportional to water use.

mechhacker 4y ago

One thing they don't seem to have mentioned was hydrofoils. It would be more for time critical shipments, but hydrofoils can greatly increase the speed of sailing vessels, but would need proper design for the sea state (such as routes to avoid larger waves, different hydrofoil designs less for speed and more for safety/reliability, etc.). The Olympic windsurf race in 2024 will be the first one with hydrofoils. America's Cup racers with the AC75 class are already on foils, with very high speed (~60mph), sometimes over triple the windspeed. Windsurfers on foils now can triple or quadruple windspeed in light winds. This tech is much more common now, and has exploded in the last 10 years in various different water sports. It would just need to be adapted to a different need than just racing. AC-75 racing class: https://youtu.be/OQsXDdGxk3U https://youtu.be/OQsXDdGxk3U IQFoil racing class: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAKfbk_kB_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAKfbk_kB_4

nradov 4y ago
It is physically impossible to build a hydrofoil sailing vessel that can carry cargo across oceans. Those racing boats are tiny with zero cargo capacity, require relatively large crews for the size, and take huge amounts of maintenance. The designs do not scale, not are they capable of safely handling the same weather conditions as large merchant ships. Y Combinator portfolio company Boundary Layer Technologies tried to build a diesel powered hydrofoil cargo vessel to target the market niche between air cargo and slow displacement hull cargo ships. The basic technology probably could have worked but they failed due to lack of any real customer demand.
- ianburrell 4y ago
  I am not sure regular hydrofoil cargo ships are practical. My understanding is that hydrofoils don't do well in high seas. All the passenger ferries I know about are in coastal waters. It may not be possible to have one that can cross ocean and deal with storms. The Boundary Layer proposal is pretty small, 200 tons and 20 TEU capacity. It would have the same scaling problems as the sailboat in article. Is there a market for slightly faster shipping? The hydrofoil is 40 knots which is 6 days from China, container ships are 20 knots and 11 days. If there was a market for faster shipping, would expect to see 30 knot ships. I bet the really urgent needs air and current cargo aircraft are sufficient.

somewhereoutth 4y ago

More precisely, how to replicate designs from the 19th century. A shame, because modern materials should allow more radical designs - for example as used in the Americas's Cup competition nowadays.

deltarholamda 4y ago
Carrying cargo is very, very different. America's Cup racers are very light. It's a mistake to apply that technology in a 1-to-1 fashion for large sailing vessels. The boat the America's Cup is named after--"America," natch--crossed the Atlantic for her race. The current America's Cup boats are no good for ocean crossing. For one, there's no room. But the real problems are that the materials are so specific, so complicated, any kind of problem and you're stuck. A canvas sail can be repaired at sea. The weird composite stuff used in AC sails are not quite so resilient. I appreciate the enthusiasm of the modern AC teams (hi Larry!), but these are not good boats. A good boat takes care of her crew. An AC racer will hurt or kill you in a heartbeat if you are not 100% on the ball. That said, some of the wing sail designs may be adaptable with the right materials.
- blitzar 4y ago
  > I appreciate the enthusiasm of the modern AC teams (hi Larry!), but these are not good boats. I liked the AC class more when it was designers + crews + conditions fighting it out not just programmers.
  - deltarholamda 4y ago
    The rules-lawyering really hurt the sport. It was always a rich man's playground, but now it's gotten ridiculous. Watching a bunch of 15-year-olds compete in Optimist dinghies at your local lake or reservoir is way more fun and entertaining than today's AC, IMO. You just can't shake the feeling that whoever spent the most money wins at the AC, which is boring.

StockHuman 4y ago

Somewhat unrelated, but I adore their ‘solar’ subdomain mirror that runs on solar power alone. It’s fun to see compelling commitment to the ethics espoused by the articles in the very site itself.

blitzar 4y ago
There should be a browser extension, similar in principle to the old "https everywhere", that attempts the solar page first, falling back to the coal powered one if the solar one is down.

automatic6131 4y ago

> it’s more likely that a switch to sailing ships is accompanied by a decrease in cargo and passenger traffic, and this has everything to do with scale and speed. A lot of freight and passengers would not be travelling if it were not for the high speeds and low costs of today’s airplanes and container ships. >It would make little sense to transport iPhones parts, Amazon wares, sweatshop clothes, or citytrippers with sailing ships. A sailing ship is more than a technical means of transportation: it implies another view on consumption, production, time, space, leisure, and travel. Yes, of course they beat around the bush with weasel words like "another view on consumption". Let's translate this for what it is: "poor people, you can no longer have luxury goods". The "rethinking" is always telling us that the wealth we've enjoyed as a high energy species should go, only to be given to our "betters" - because they can always afford it. But they rarely ever say this out loud because it's an impossible sell, so they use mealy mouthed euphemisms. Fuck these people, honestly. I don't want to live in a world where, in the name of equality, we take progress from those who have it. Give it to more people.

11001100 4y ago

I enjoyed watching the Netflix documentary "Untold - The Race of the Century" - but of course it shaped sailing ships in the 20th century: https://www.netflix.com/title/81026435 https://www.netflix.com/title/81026435

WelcomeShorty 4y ago
Oh that was a blast! Thanks for pointing that out. Besides a great story, it is such a nice icon of the time. What stood out most to me is the "Australia, that little, unknown country" :)

speed_spread 4y ago

> How to design a sailing ship for the 21st century? Late 21st century? Put wheels on the bottom of it...

jlg23 4y ago

The "12 crew and 12 passengers" would, as far as I remember, require one doctor on board. The number of passengers a cargo ship may take without dedicated medical staff was ridiculously low and explains why it is so much harder/expensive to travel on board as a passenger than one would expect. (8 years ago it was $200/day and up)

arh68 4y ago

> Two rowing machines could provide roughly 400 watts of power. If they are operated around the clock in shifts, they could supply the ship with an extra 9.6 kWh of energy per day Rowing 200 watts is not exactly easy. That's like 2:00/- splits, "ramming speed" type power. Half that seems more reasonable. I do like the idea, though, of a sailing ship with ad hoc erg/rowing power.

nickdothutton 4y ago

I think it’s high time these cargo ships were fully automated. At least as far as the point after which the local pilot comes onboard.

kulahan 4y ago
It's weird that this isn't already the case. We do it with airplanes, and surely that's much harder simply by virtue of needing to consider three dimensions. I can't imagine it would be difficult to automate steering a ship across the open ocean. You could build something basic and just make the captain handle all the iffy stuff.
- merry_flame 4y ago
  Autopilot has existed for decades now and works really well, but it doesn't replace a crew, be it only for everything unrelated to navigation, crossing the path of other vessels, etc.