13 ms·

Walmart to close three tech hubs, tells tech staff to return to offices

149 points by lxm 4y ago

cableshaft 4y ago
So yeah, they're just going to force us all to RTO because pretty much every single company is going to collectively decide to bully everyone into doing it, until there's hardly any companies left doing it, and certainly not enough for the demand for it since the pandemic. Great, just great. Might be almost time to start looking into freelancing again.
- robbintt 4y ago
  This is going to drive salaries up in the hubs again.
- jstx1 4y ago
  Freelancing isn't exactly stable and reliable either.
- eikenberry 4y ago
  I'd suggest, if you're looking, to take a job at a company that is remote first. Skip all these companies that are "allowing it" and go for the ones that make it a selling point. A company saying they are remote first with little office space should insulate you from these sorts of shenanigans.
  - aledalgrande 4y ago
    This. I worked at companies that are "remote" and their solution is to have 254 Zoom meetings per day.
- evo_9 4y ago
  No they’re not; some of us have become managers during all this and won’t stand for it. Not to mention we’ve hired quite a few out-of-state resources and simply can’t afford to lose them. Some shitty companies will pursue this but the smart companies will stay the course and hire away their talent. It’s a competitive advantage and companies need to view it that way or suffer. Also - this will now provide us with a very simple test, is this a shitty company that does not truly value its employees, or are they one of the good ones worthy of my attention.
  - operatingthetan 4y ago
    My question about these policies is are they actually applying them to everyone in the org, or is there a political mess of exceptions and 'key people' who can muscle their way out of the requirement? It seems like a lot of the recent layoffs are intended to give an attitude check to those who think they are essential, but surely these businesses actually have essential teams and specific engineers that would harm the org if they left?
    - datavirtue 4y ago
      Yes. At GE (yes, the real GE Aviation that still exists) we just said "Yessa master" and then ignored the three day per week in-office "requirement." The managers (directors and lower C-levels) in the trenches had zero interest in enforcing it. Though, that place is a den of malicious compliance throughout. Just nod, and then do what you want. No need to keep bringing it up.
      - operatingthetan 4y ago
        I agree that some of these instances won't have teeth. I think for companies who already have aggressive attrition policies like Microsoft, Amazon, and perhaps Walmart they will though. Long before covid I did the same thing, I just started working from home and got some flak for it, but it never entered into my performance equation and I remained employed there.
      - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
        Apple is giving verbal notices for not complying 3 days RTO, I heard on blind. Here, HR is forcing the attrition: either come 3 days to office or quit.
        User23 4y ago
        Everyone’s situation is different, but I know people at a big tech company you’ve heard of who are infamous for being, well, kind of assholes, who when given a similar offer by HR have said no I’m not coming to the office and no I’m not quitting and that has worked for over a year so far. Of course that’s all predicated on your manager wanting to keep you and at least somewhat go to bat for you. Otherwise I expect it’ll lead to dismissal rather rapidly.
- xdfgh1112 4y ago
  As a lifetime remote dev it does kind of suck. People have been let in on my secret and now jobs have reduced, it'll be a lot more competitive. On the other hand remote allows you to work for other countries. So there are still options if your cost of living is low.
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    At a previous job, we seemed to have had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it came to remote workers logging in from outside of their home country. Then we had a member of the infosec team start logging in from a war zone and the policy suddenly because crystal clear that logins would only be accepted from the employee's home country unless permission was granted ahead of time and programmed into the VPN.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      I've seen folks solve for this by VPNing into a family member's residential connection in an acceptable (to the business) jurisdiction before connecting to the corp VPN. Risk tolerance decision. Like having to VPN home so Netflix doesn't take your password sharing away. I make no judgement either way on the topic; I'm simply speaking in technical capability terms. Edit: @Aeolun https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10zvbgf/ysk_that_you_can_set_up_a_free_vpn_server_on_your https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10zvbgf/ysk_... (from a quick google search vs an in thread explanation)
      - bobleeswagger 4y ago
        > Netflix doesn't take your password sharing away That's a weird way to frame Netflix enforcing the ToS users like you agreed to.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        datavirtue 4y ago
- daseiner1 4y ago
  I'd have to agree. If you're not more interested in working as a genuine team member than as a glorified anonymous contributor you should look into freelancing
- whateveracct 4y ago
  There were plenty of remote jobs before the pandemic. I'm sure that will continue.
- linkjuice4all 4y ago
  Some of these companies have been "bullied" by the tax-receiving cities that they're based in. I hate commuting and getting interrupted by co-workers in the office as much as the next person but this change in working style has had a negative impact on the business that used to service office workers. With the change in interest rates (let's not forget Jeremy Powell wants to use unemployment to cool inflation [0]), layoffs, and return to office mandates it seems like employees are losing the war. I really hope that companies that aren't saddled with real estate and rental costs of having an office can continue to offer remote work - after all they have fewer costs and can draw from a larger pool of employees. Management be damned - many people don't need to drive (and waste gas) just to sit in the same place at the same time as some other people. [0] https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-rates-workers/ https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-...
  - pinewurst 4y ago
    While it's true that "this change in working style has had a negative impact on the business that used to service office workers", it's not my personal cross to bear by enduring an obnoxious commute.
- lolinder 4y ago
  No, companies are going to stabilize on one or the other. Just the other day GitHub announced they were closing all office space. Remote work isn't ending, what's ending is companies having ambiguous temporary remote work policies. They're either coming down hard for or against.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    This is good. Pretty much everyone has a preference one way or the other. No one like it mixed.
- Xorakios 4y ago
  It is generally illegally to freelance in California unless you're a journalist or an actor
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  Time will tell how well this remote work experiment works. If it works well, it will grow and evolve, if not it will fade away.
  - eat 4y ago
    I got my first remote job in 2011. Whatever is going on right now has very little to do with what works, and what doesn't.
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      I created my own in 2004
- ergvgdvgrd 4y ago
  Only if they can all simultaneously execute the cooperation strategy of the Prisoner's Dilema. Meanwhe every corporation that defects gets to pick from the pool of remote workers with _reduced_ competition from the corporations choosing the "cooperate" strategy.
geraldwhen 4y ago
This is a layoff, but it’s at least one that makes sense. Consolidating offices feels more reasonable to me than just slicing headcount randomly. I hope the severance package is good.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  This seems like a bad way to do a layoff (if that's your intent) because you can't target and cull the low performers. In fact, you're likely to disproportionately lose the employees that are most able to find new jobs, i.e. your best employees.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - geraldwhen 4y ago
    Greatest potential and best employees aren’t the same at BigCo. Institutional knowledge is worth more the larger an organization is, and those willing to move may be more devoted to the company and willing to stay around long term. In fact, if Walmart pays exponentially more for tenure as some bigcos do, the most willing to quit would be the most junior employees. There are many ways to skin the cat, but either way reducing office space to save costs makes sense, remote work policies aside. And they did offer both relocation benefits and severance, which is about as ideal as this kind of thing can be.
- dividefuel 4y ago
  Does it make sense? You're selecting workers based on where they already live or where they're willing to relocate to, not based on performance or strategic company need.
tirrellp 4y ago
Easy way to accelerate attrition (and thus, headcount reduction) without announcing layoffs.
- tmpz22 4y ago
  Except your best talent may have access to the most opportunities
  - eikenberry 4y ago
    Large enterprises don't recognize or even want "best talent"... they want replaceable resources that can be reorg'd with little thought.
    - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
      True. Walmart puts up a quote in their store breakrooms that goes something like "Don't be creative, follow the procedures". While that's aimed at retail workers, not the people in tech centers, it was interesting to see actually turned into a poster with Sam Walton's face on it. Suspect that it permeates the culture of the company.
- cmsonger 4y ago
  I think this is what's going on too. Easy way to have folks self select out.
- LordKeren 4y ago
  Easy way to kick start the Dead Sea effect and significantly reduce the amount of applicants to backfill https://medium.com/geekculture/the-dead-sea-effect-d71df13724f8 https://medium.com/geekculture/the-dead-sea-effect-d71df1372...
- Yhippa 4y ago
  It's a weird way of doing it though, right? This will surely push away your better workers who have options. You're going to be left with the worse employees who have no other options.
no_wizard 4y ago
I almost took a job at the Portland office and they said there was “no way we would do return to office” Glad I didn’t do it now
- xienze 4y ago
  Well, they weren’t lying. No one will be returning to that office, after all.
- waboremo 4y ago
  What's that saying, only a sith deals in absolutes?
  - lolinder 4y ago
    Which has always been a rather ironic line lacking in self-awareness.
- judge2020 4y ago
  I imagine this is the case in most places: recruiters and managers are so far down in the chain that they can't be given information before the rest of the workforce, so they might legitimately not know whether or not a return-to-office plan is in action.
- qbasic_forever 4y ago
  "Oh great! Well if there's no way you'd do a RTO then we shouldn't have any problem writing remote only into my employment contract! I've just sent over the document with this change. Let's sign it, I'm ready to get to work!"
  - walrus01 4y ago
    Isn't it amazing what kind of actual blunt answer about somebody's intentions you can get back from people when you send them back a copy of their file with MS Word "Track Changes" enabled and marked up in color, and ask them to approve it before becoming an executed agreement?
santoriv 4y ago
I can’t read the whole article but are they telling a bunch of people to move to Bentonville or Sunnyvale?
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  I know which one I’d take
  - tomcam 4y ago
    I assume you're being droll but to me (not a Walmart person) it seems like Bentonville would be better professionally since it's company HQ, and very much a company town? My completely unfounded theory is that it's generally a more savvy career move for your boss to see your face IRL? The thought is that if two candidates are equal, the one that actually shows up in the office is just going to be more likely to get the nod.
    - pinewurst 4y ago
      Setting aside the dubious merits of Arkansas (and yes I've been to Bentonville), why would a technology person move to where he'll never rise up that high in the greater organization? I think the answer to your question, is to recognize that you shouldn't put yourself into such a position.
      - humanistbot 4y ago
        Because internal promotions are so rare these days in tech. You have a much better chance at getting a promotion by getting another offer from a different company.
    - lesdeuxmagots 4y ago
      If you plan on being a Walmart lifer, sure. But what about your next job if that isn’t true? Better to be central to where the majority of companies and candidates are, where your ex-colleagues, parents of your children’s friends, and casual acquaintances (proverbial bowling league) all are part of a broader and accessible network for future job prospects. It also keeps you culturally (professionally) more similar to your next job’s culture.
bnert 4y ago
https://archive.is/MIB1W https://archive.is/MIB1W
Mc91 4y ago
I am a SWE at another Fortune 100 retailer...we have been told to start reporting to the office this month, after about three years of WFH. Two days a week to start with.
- moneywoes 4y ago
  Is it team dependent or org wide
  - Mc91 4y ago
    It is not team dependent in our division. I know it is happening in another division too, since late January they've been required to be back in the office for some days during the week.
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Mountain_Skies 4y ago
Interesting that they contacted me just last week about an open position. I thought it was odd that the inside recruiter included an obviously abbreviated version of the job posting in her email to me. When I looked up some of the key phrases, I found the posting, which was listed as hybrid while my profile clearly indicates I only work 100% remote. When I asked her about how many days per week hybrid means, she said "about three", which sounds an awful lot like four to me, which probably also means that one (possibly two) work from home days would soon go away. She didn't respond to my request for their location. If she wasn't an inside recruiter, I would have thought it was a scam attempt. Got to wonder if the caginess is due to them having problems with finding people to take over the obviously on-site jobs. Sure, the initial contact could have been a simple mistake on her part, but then the editing of the job posting to exclude anything about hybrid and days in the office and then a resistance to explaining the details when I emailed her back is suspicious. I decided to not pursuit it further and now seeing this news, makes me feel like I made the right choice.
- walrus01 4y ago
  The short way of addressing this, if you are sufficiently senior in your position or in-demand for your tech skills, is to ensure that any offer letter has extremely unambiguous language written into it that your position is 100% remote and will remain remote. Tell that to the recruiter. If they don't do it, proceed with a short "thank you for your time but I am not interested" and move on.
  - operatingthetan 4y ago
    I think given at-will employment they can renege on that agreement whenever they want. Obviously it's best to have a meeting of minds, but can you really ever trust a corporation? Probably not.
    - Aeolun 4y ago
      They can terminate you instead of allowing you to work remote, but they cannot renege on the agreement to allow you to work remote.
kneebonian 4y ago
Remember if it isnt in writing it isn't real.
- jmathai 4y ago
  If it's in writing, and you want to pay for lawyers, and things go your way, it's real.
ghaff 4y ago
I expect we'll see a bifurcation between companies that were supposedly WFH/remote-friendly/tolerant and become increasingly less so. And a much smaller number that actually are supportive of remote work as the default. Of course, there's no guarantee that the latter will offer pay scales similar to the former.
walrus01 4y ago
Telling tech workers like that to return to office as a mandate is just another way of executing a massive layoff. They have to know that a huge percentage of people will resign (or wait to be dismissed from their position for refusing) rather than uproot themselves and move their whole family to go work in a cubicle farm for Walmart. The people who will be left afterwards that happily do want to go live in Bentonville, AR and report to office 5 days a week will be the ones who have drunk the Walmart koolaid. That's my own idea of a personal hell.
monksy 4y ago
I just got a recruiter reach out to me about a Scala/Haskell oporturnity at Disney. Their claim was this was a "hybrid" position and required a relo to Sea, LA, SFO, NYC, or Orlando of 4x a week in office. Considering how much it's documented on how hard it's to find scala engineers... their demands of RTO _and_ a relo is laughable. Everyday, it feels like the corp's claims of a money crunch is self inflicted.
- johnvanommen 4y ago
  Disney is the worst place I've ever worked.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  With a large brand like Disney, there's probably some arrogance involved too, believing they can alter the world to their liking. If the company was something like "Data Image Formatting Corporation of Delaware", I'd expect they'd be a bit more realistic about their ability to get people to accept such a deal outside of their local area.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Does 4 days a week in the office constitute hybrid now? That’s full time office with a rest day.
  - monksy 4y ago
    That's the casual dress version of rto.
Reptur 4y ago
I don't work for Walmart, but I'd expect pay increase to cover gas, car maintenance, and duration of drive to/from work. The drive to/from work has always been a freebie for companies, but they are depreciating your vehicle and you are working unpaid for travel time.
- MaxHoppersGhost 4y ago
  Did you or anyone else take a pay decrease when you went remote because you weren’t paying for gas/depreciation/time anymore? Otherwise this point is moot.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    Of course not, now you need to pay for heating and electricity, which the company also doesn’t refund.
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    I was remote for five years before the pandemic, so for people like me, that's not applicable. At that particular company, they had ended or subleased most of their existing office space (maybe 80%) before the pandemic, which was very fortuitous for them. They still have a handful of offices, probably always will since their physical equipment needs are extensive, but no doubt they've enjoyed the savings from getting so much office space off their books.
- deadmutex 4y ago
  Heh, I remember a similar argument for WFH. "I have to pay for HVAC, increased electricity usage, etc." TBH, I don't think companies think about it in this fine grained way. They will just increase/decrease pay to get the level of demand they desire for their job openings.
- gedy 4y ago
  > you are working unpaid for travel time Not if you start counting the commute time in the 8 hours you are supposed to work. Needs an org that does not micromanagement you, but it's what I did when it was important to be in office.
lvl102 4y ago
Walmart only started these initiatives to APPEAR as Amazon competition. The company has some deep issues including BS they pull on hidden inventory across all of their stores.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  Walmart recently shut down permanently the store I shopped at in my old town. At the time, there were already three cargo containers on the edge of the parking lot apparently holding excess stock that had been pushed down to the store over the years that they couldn't put out on the floor anymore due to space constraints. I've heard stories about pretty much every store having similar containers because the stock keeps on coming and if they can't get anyone to buy that ancient 500 meg external drive, they are also not able to just dispose of it either. I wonder what's happening with those containers and if the number grew since I moved away half a decade ago. Does some other store get that inventory dumped on it?
doitLP 4y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20230214000353/https://www.wsj.com/articles/walmart-to-close-three-tech-hubs-tells-tech-staff-to-return-to-offices-3fb131e4 https://web.archive.org/web/20230214000353/https://www.wsj.c...
nemo44x 4y ago
I’ve been to their offices in San Bruno and they’re quite nice. Good food service. Tech companies have to be feeling miffed about making these dream like places to work only for many people wanting to not go in. I feel like if I were young or old I’d want an office in large part to socialize. But anyone with kids probably really likes the flexibility of working at home. It’s life changing if you have a family.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  The head of my department at my last company has three teenagers, all of which play sports. Working from home allowed him to take over the very extensive laundry duties that come with having three sports playing teens. Since laundry has lots of hands off waiting, it worked out perfect as most of his days are spent in meetings. He can change loads in between calls. It also meant we all knew not to let our meetings go over time, which was really a bonus to the rest of us.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    Sounds like it is time to teach your teens how to do their laundry.
    - Ancalagon 4y ago
      I think they’re at school?
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        At some point they come home and can do it then. Any parent that becomes a servant to their teenager is doing a disservice to them. Your job is to teach them skills so they can become self sufficient adults.
bhhaskin 4y ago
If you want to work remotely, make sure it is stated in your employment contract. If it isn't then it's temporary and at the complete discretion of your employer.
- frankbreetz 4y ago
  What does it matter? In your contract or not, almost everything in the US is "At will", so they can just get you to accept another contract or stop your current one.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    It would ensure you are eligible for unemployment benefits in the event you are terminated because of the employer changing the work location.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      It blows my mind that in the US you can both lose your job for no reason at any time, and you also need to have an approved reason to collect welfare payments. Sounds like almost everyone is a few unfortunate events away from disaster.
      - bhhaskin 4y ago
        Unemployment insurance isn't welfare. It's insurance that you ultimately pay into via your employer and employment taxes. You can't claim unemployment if you quit.
    - bhhaskin 4y ago
      It also makes it harder to terminate. Yes the us is at will, but most orgs do not want to fire someone without cause. Wrongful termination is a thing.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
71a54xd 4y ago
If people just don't fold we can still save remote work.
- brewdad 4y ago
  People need to eat. They will fold. Not everyone obviously but enough to see RTO pushes succeed.
aledalgrande 4y ago
My 2c is that hybrid doesn't work. The company would never turn the dial to 100 on remote tools, policies and rituals. And it's still tied to hubs so it's hard to hire from other geographical areas, in the same country or overseas. It's not freedom, it's a mess.
dividefuel 4y ago
Lots of companies calling workers back to the office these days. Did these companies originally commit to allowing permanent remote workers? Or were they unofficial policies due to the pandemic that kept getting extended?
softwaredoug 4y ago
The remote job market is going to get quite interesting. Would you create an in-person startup these days? Is that how you would start a company? My guess is you start a company remote first - if for no other reason to avoid the office cost, and be open to any talent. If many larger companies are in person - what does that mean for how things look in 10 years? With startups being more remote, would there be a bias towards remote workers, living in lower cost of living areas, actually being the hub of innovation? Making the "cities" a kind of anti-innovation-hub of more humdrum corporate work?
- TylerE 4y ago
  It it were me and I was truly starting a start up, I would do it in person, at least while we’re in the single digit employees, but it sure as hell wouldn’t be anywhere close to SF, where costs are just insane. It’s be somewhere with a reasonable CoL but still nice to live in… Charlotte/RTP, Nashville, maybe Chicago or Philly if you really wanted to be in a big metro. Alternative would be remote, but try to cluster the employees so you could get together in person a few times a month with no one (ideally) having to drive much more than an hour or so round trip.
  - techsupporter 4y ago
    > It’s be somewhere with a reasonable CoL but still nice to live in… The funny thing is, this is why companies were in San Francisco. Back when the tech industry was far less than it is now, San Francisco was "a reasonable CoL but still nice to live in" even though it was all the way over there in California. Then San Francisco got expensive so people tried Seattle...then Denver...then Austin...and so the wheel turns. And each time, we fail to learn the lessons of what made those places get more expensive as more people wanted to move there. Then we try again somewhere else, expecting that new people won't have the back story and existing people will happily move. I've been working on computers for a job for decades and we still haven't gotten it right.
    - acchow 4y ago
      > San Francisco was "a reasonable CoL but still nice to live in" even though it was all the way over there in California. Can you provide some citations on this? I've been told San Francisco has always been expensive.
cooperadymas 4y ago
I think what everyone is missing is the timing of these RTO orders. There's a huge swath of tech playoffs right now. Tens or hundreds of thousands of devs are out of work and looking. Many, many others are worried they are next on the chopping block. There's no better time for big corps to make unpopular decisions like this. Many employees will be scared to refuse the mandate, because they see the layoffs. They fear for their job. They see the market is tough for getting hired elsewhere. They'll go back to the office out of fear. If devs leave, it will be easier than ever to replace them.
- pcan77 4y ago
  This, and most of the recession was manufactured to take worker power away that was gained during WFH/pandemic times. It's not a coincidence that the FAANG companies were fined a combined 45M (chump change to them) when caught colluding to stagnant tech worker wages. I almost guarantee they colluded in layoffs/getting people to RTO.
  - umeshunni 4y ago
    It's 415M, not 45M and it's technically not FAANG companies - it was Apple, Google, Intel and Adobe. If anything Facebook is responsible for the vast increase in tech comp over the last 12 years.
- kcplate 4y ago
  I find it remarkable the level of arrogance that the pandemic shift to WFH has given the tech community. Both my wife and I WFH and certainly want to continue it, but if our companies tomorrow told us they were doing RTO we’d be disappointed but would of course go. We spent decades of our careers in an office and only 3 short years outside of one. Some folks on HN do not realize yet that well paying WFH employment opportunities will become scarce in 2023, and if your default position is to demand WFH, companies will just move on to the next candidate of the 100k that are available that can do your job just as well as you can and are willing to show up at an office.
purple_ferret 4y ago
Isn't there a tech hub in Jersey City at the old Jet office? What's with forcing people to move to Arkansas?
- Ancalagon 4y ago
  No competition for talent in Arkansas. It’s quite simple. Keeps their employment costs down.
bigbillheck 4y ago
Considering how Walmart treats their other workers, it shouldn't be any surprise how they treat tech workers.
ericmcer 4y ago
I wonder if this is somehow correlated with all the layoffs. Return to the status quo, cut down the massive hiring during the pandemic, scare everyone into RTO, get back to pre-pandemic worker relations.
jrs235 4y ago
This is the next wave: soft layoffs. Reducing headcount without "having to pay" severance and allowing for some self-selection. "We didn't fire them! They chose to go!" and saves money at the same time.
Ancalagon 4y ago
I worked in one of those locations being shut down. Suresh’s leadership and direction - or lack thereof - made it pretty clear to me that investment in the US would wane under his rule. Needless to say, I do not work for Walmart anymore.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
hlship 4y ago
I wonder what the real story is here. When I left Walmart last June, the Portland office was already 100% remote, with no intention of reopening the office (it had been WeWork space before the pandemic). My team had been 100% remote since it was formed. I’m pretty bad at the rumors game, but even so, by the time I left, it was clear to me that Walmart considered its IT future to be based in India.
actionablefiber 4y ago
This is a layoff disguised as RTO. Part of the giveaway is that there are some exemptions being made to keep some employees on full WFH.
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  Ianal but pretty sure you can’t just move the work site halfway across the country and then fire everybody who doesn’t show up for cause.
  - MathMonkeyMan 4y ago
    You don't have to fire them. Some will quit because fuck that, and others will cave under the pressure and acquiesce or quit later. And maybe you can fire them, I don't know.
  - DigitalGeppetto 4y ago
    "For cause" isn't relevant here. The point is that whoever doesn't want to move will be terminated, which is perfectly legal. Walmart is betting that a big chunk of its employees in places like Portland OR aren't going to move to Bentonville, AR, and then it can terminate them and have an effective layoff that doesn't look like a layoff. Pretty safe bet.
    - neilv 4y ago
      If that were the plan, would Oregon officials (for example) pressure to treat it as a layoff?
      - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
        On what basic would/could they make this argument?
        red-iron-pine 4y ago
        Constructive Dismissal is a thing.
victor9000 4y ago
Everyone hop on the brain drain express -Walmart Recruiters
- bdcravens 4y ago
  Not sure what you mean by that. I understand that Walmart is kind of a low reputation retailer, but the tech side of things has always been ahead of the curve.
  - DigitalGeppetto 4y ago
    Walmart was never a prestigious or highly desirable employer for engineers. Its general reputation is strictly worse than Amazon.
    - myalphabet 4y ago
      Despite the impression that Amazon is a hellplace, it remains one of the most desired places in the world for software engineers to work, so being "worse than Amazon" isn't saying much. Walmart's tech side of things is very highly regarded both for the work, as well for the pay. They pay $200-300k for people from 5-10/yrs experience, which despite being below FAANG level, still puts it squarely among the top paying companies for software development.
      - schreiaj 4y ago
        They are also a great place to cut your teeth on the FAANG type problems because, as it turns out, they face similar scale issues. There's a lot of "second tier" tech companies that have some really cool problems at massive scales that also pay really well. Not as obviously sexy as FAANGs though.
      - Jcowell 4y ago
        > it remains one of the most desired places in the world for software engineers to work The word desired here feels weird to me. I just wouldn’t describe it as people desiring to work there. People desire to work at Apple. People desire to work at Meta even. Amazon to me seems kinda like a pit stop FAANG wise? Maybe it’s the PIP culture there that taints my view
NDizzle 4y ago
They want people in Bentonville. The new headquarters is being built faster than anything of that size that I've ever seen being built. There's something like a dozen buildings going up at once. Maybe more, it's hard to keep track.
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  What’s the draw to get tech workers to migrate there, other than lower home prices? Seems like a notable decline in quality of life compared to their soon to be closed hubs.
  - Pegasus930 4y ago
    While I don't have any plans of working for Walmart, a nice campus and decent pay in an affordable, beautiful, very low cost location is alluring.
  - justin66 4y ago
    Requiring hires to live in Bentonville is one way to ensure they are a "culture fit."
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    It may be hard to believe, but there are lifestyles that don’t thrive in California.
    - tjr225 4y ago
      [dead]
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      California became so popular because it accommodated lots of different lifestyles, its main drawback ATM is that it’s too popular (so lots of people are priced out). Bentonville is us in northwest Arkansas, right in the Ozarks, I wouldn’t really consider it in the same boat with the rest of the state. I hear it’s actually a nice place to live if you can bare living in a red state (which, these days, has lots of legal drawbacks).
ravenstine 4y ago
Maybe they know something I don't, but Walmart doesn't strike me as the kind of company or location that a lot of good talent would go back to the office for. The decision to close the hubs at least makes some sense; exactly how much technology has Walmart been getting out of them?
- DigitalGeppetto 4y ago
  It's not the kind of company great talent would have chosen in the first place. However, their best talent will be allowed to continue working remotely so they don't leave.
- benced 4y ago
  Especially for Bensenville
- porknubbins 4y ago
  I think Walmart was one of the first to roll out real time inventory tracking/ tagging. In my experience big distopian megacorps are pretty enthusiastic on tech.
- Consultant32452 4y ago
  If you have any interest in supply chain or logistics, Walmart would be among the top places in the world to work.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- myrandomcomment 4y ago
  I am in tech. I have had Walmart as a customer. Their use of technology is amazingly complex and challenging. They are on the bleeding edge on a number of things. Just because they do not look like Amazon publicly, does not mean they are not privately.
- foobazzy 4y ago
  I know that Walmart Labs India office is good. A quick internet search gives me these things. [1] https://github.com/orgs/walmartlabs/repositories https://github.com/orgs/walmartlabs/repositories [2] https://corporate.walmart.com/IRL/ https://corporate.walmart.com/IRL/ [3] https://medium.com/walmartglobaltech https://medium.com/walmartglobaltech Based on these, I would say they're investing heavily in tech. And their tech is interesting in some ways. Edit: formatting
sircastor 4y ago
I interviewed to work with Walmart's tech group many years ago. It was not a great experience. I admit that part of that was me (I was eager to leave my current role, but my heart wasn't really in this). The thing that stands out most to me is that I was asked to do some sort of data transformation and pointed out that there was a severe issue with the task they were asking me to do. Apparently they "asked everyone to do this" but I was the only person who'd ever brought it up. It felt really weird to me, but they weren't interested in moving forward, and I wasn't really either.
- ravagat 4y ago
  Would you say their interview process is similar to FAANG? I've had recruiters reach out but I have yet to take up an interview
  - sircastor 4y ago
    The only FAANG I've ever interviewed at was Amazon, and the Walmart Tech stuff did not feel like that at all. Which is to say, Amazon was far more challenging and time consuming. Walmart felt like interviewing at any large company that has a software group.
    - ravagat 4y ago
      Interesting! Thanks for following up.
analognoise 4y ago
"A ResumeBuilder.com survey of 1,000 business leaders found that 90 percent plan to require employees to return to the office at least some of the time in 2023. Twenty-one percent plan to separate from workers who refuse to come back to work in person." Just don't listen if they ask you to come back and you've got ~4/5 chance of it not being an issue; they'll give up eventually.
theowawayasd 4y ago
I will resign if iam forced to work from home.
saos 4y ago
Basically a way to layoff staff.
ravagat 4y ago
I might be alone in this and I am completely unaware of what the work that goes on in Walmart under tech/software but I wouldn't mind RTO if there are some higher-level interesting work being done along logistics, manufacturing, efficiency-related work

149 points by lxm 4y ago

So yeah, they're just going to force us all to RTO because pretty much every single company is going to collectively decide to bully everyone into doing it, until there's hardly any companies left doing it, and certainly not enough for the demand for it since the pandemic. Great, just great. Might be almost time to start looking into freelancing again.

robbintt 4y ago
This is going to drive salaries up in the hubs again.
jstx1 4y ago
Freelancing isn't exactly stable and reliable either.
eikenberry 4y ago
I'd suggest, if you're looking, to take a job at a company that is remote first. Skip all these companies that are "allowing it" and go for the ones that make it a selling point. A company saying they are remote first with little office space should insulate you from these sorts of shenanigans.
- aledalgrande 4y ago
  This. I worked at companies that are "remote" and their solution is to have 254 Zoom meetings per day.
evo_9 4y ago
No they’re not; some of us have become managers during all this and won’t stand for it. Not to mention we’ve hired quite a few out-of-state resources and simply can’t afford to lose them. Some shitty companies will pursue this but the smart companies will stay the course and hire away their talent. It’s a competitive advantage and companies need to view it that way or suffer. Also - this will now provide us with a very simple test, is this a shitty company that does not truly value its employees, or are they one of the good ones worthy of my attention.
- operatingthetan 4y ago
  My question about these policies is are they actually applying them to everyone in the org, or is there a political mess of exceptions and 'key people' who can muscle their way out of the requirement? It seems like a lot of the recent layoffs are intended to give an attitude check to those who think they are essential, but surely these businesses actually have essential teams and specific engineers that would harm the org if they left?
  - datavirtue 4y ago
    Yes. At GE (yes, the real GE Aviation that still exists) we just said "Yessa master" and then ignored the three day per week in-office "requirement." The managers (directors and lower C-levels) in the trenches had zero interest in enforcing it. Though, that place is a den of malicious compliance throughout. Just nod, and then do what you want. No need to keep bringing it up.
    - operatingthetan 4y ago
      I agree that some of these instances won't have teeth. I think for companies who already have aggressive attrition policies like Microsoft, Amazon, and perhaps Walmart they will though. Long before covid I did the same thing, I just started working from home and got some flak for it, but it never entered into my performance equation and I remained employed there.
    - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
      Apple is giving verbal notices for not complying 3 days RTO, I heard on blind. Here, HR is forcing the attrition: either come 3 days to office or quit.
      - User23 4y ago
        Everyone’s situation is different, but I know people at a big tech company you’ve heard of who are infamous for being, well, kind of assholes, who when given a similar offer by HR have said no I’m not coming to the office and no I’m not quitting and that has worked for over a year so far. Of course that’s all predicated on your manager wanting to keep you and at least somewhat go to bat for you. Otherwise I expect it’ll lead to dismissal rather rapidly.
xdfgh1112 4y ago
As a lifetime remote dev it does kind of suck. People have been let in on my secret and now jobs have reduced, it'll be a lot more competitive. On the other hand remote allows you to work for other countries. So there are still options if your cost of living is low.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  At a previous job, we seemed to have had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it came to remote workers logging in from outside of their home country. Then we had a member of the infosec team start logging in from a war zone and the policy suddenly because crystal clear that logins would only be accepted from the employee's home country unless permission was granted ahead of time and programmed into the VPN.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    I've seen folks solve for this by VPNing into a family member's residential connection in an acceptable (to the business) jurisdiction before connecting to the corp VPN. Risk tolerance decision. Like having to VPN home so Netflix doesn't take your password sharing away. I make no judgement either way on the topic; I'm simply speaking in technical capability terms. Edit: @Aeolun https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10zvbgf/ysk_that_you_can_set_up_a_free_vpn_server_on_your https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10zvbgf/ysk_... (from a quick google search vs an in thread explanation)
    - bobleeswagger 4y ago
      > Netflix doesn't take your password sharing away That's a weird way to frame Netflix enforcing the ToS users like you agreed to.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - datavirtue 4y ago
daseiner1 4y ago
I'd have to agree. If you're not more interested in working as a genuine team member than as a glorified anonymous contributor you should look into freelancing
whateveracct 4y ago
There were plenty of remote jobs before the pandemic. I'm sure that will continue.
linkjuice4all 4y ago
Some of these companies have been "bullied" by the tax-receiving cities that they're based in. I hate commuting and getting interrupted by co-workers in the office as much as the next person but this change in working style has had a negative impact on the business that used to service office workers. With the change in interest rates (let's not forget Jeremy Powell wants to use unemployment to cool inflation [0]), layoffs, and return to office mandates it seems like employees are losing the war. I really hope that companies that aren't saddled with real estate and rental costs of having an office can continue to offer remote work - after all they have fewer costs and can draw from a larger pool of employees. Management be damned - many people don't need to drive (and waste gas) just to sit in the same place at the same time as some other people. [0] https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-rates-workers/ https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-...
- pinewurst 4y ago
  While it's true that "this change in working style has had a negative impact on the business that used to service office workers", it's not my personal cross to bear by enduring an obnoxious commute.
lolinder 4y ago
No, companies are going to stabilize on one or the other. Just the other day GitHub announced they were closing all office space. Remote work isn't ending, what's ending is companies having ambiguous temporary remote work policies. They're either coming down hard for or against.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  This is good. Pretty much everyone has a preference one way or the other. No one like it mixed.
Xorakios 4y ago
It is generally illegally to freelance in California unless you're a journalist or an actor
BurningFrog 4y ago
Time will tell how well this remote work experiment works. If it works well, it will grow and evolve, if not it will fade away.
- eat 4y ago
  I got my first remote job in 2011. Whatever is going on right now has very little to do with what works, and what doesn't.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    I created my own in 2004
ergvgdvgrd 4y ago
Only if they can all simultaneously execute the cooperation strategy of the Prisoner's Dilema. Meanwhe every corporation that defects gets to pick from the pool of remote workers with _reduced_ competition from the corporations choosing the "cooperate" strategy.

geraldwhen 4y ago

This is a layoff, but it’s at least one that makes sense. Consolidating offices feels more reasonable to me than just slicing headcount randomly. I hope the severance package is good.

missedthecue 4y ago
This seems like a bad way to do a layoff (if that's your intent) because you can't target and cull the low performers. In fact, you're likely to disproportionately lose the employees that are most able to find new jobs, i.e. your best employees.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  Greatest potential and best employees aren’t the same at BigCo. Institutional knowledge is worth more the larger an organization is, and those willing to move may be more devoted to the company and willing to stay around long term. In fact, if Walmart pays exponentially more for tenure as some bigcos do, the most willing to quit would be the most junior employees. There are many ways to skin the cat, but either way reducing office space to save costs makes sense, remote work policies aside. And they did offer both relocation benefits and severance, which is about as ideal as this kind of thing can be.
dividefuel 4y ago
Does it make sense? You're selecting workers based on where they already live or where they're willing to relocate to, not based on performance or strategic company need.

tirrellp 4y ago

Easy way to accelerate attrition (and thus, headcount reduction) without announcing layoffs.

tmpz22 4y ago
Except your best talent may have access to the most opportunities
- eikenberry 4y ago
  Large enterprises don't recognize or even want "best talent"... they want replaceable resources that can be reorg'd with little thought.
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    True. Walmart puts up a quote in their store breakrooms that goes something like "Don't be creative, follow the procedures". While that's aimed at retail workers, not the people in tech centers, it was interesting to see actually turned into a poster with Sam Walton's face on it. Suspect that it permeates the culture of the company.
cmsonger 4y ago
I think this is what's going on too. Easy way to have folks self select out.
LordKeren 4y ago
Easy way to kick start the Dead Sea effect and significantly reduce the amount of applicants to backfill https://medium.com/geekculture/the-dead-sea-effect-d71df13724f8 https://medium.com/geekculture/the-dead-sea-effect-d71df1372...
Yhippa 4y ago
It's a weird way of doing it though, right? This will surely push away your better workers who have options. You're going to be left with the worse employees who have no other options.

no_wizard 4y ago

I almost took a job at the Portland office and they said there was “no way we would do return to office” Glad I didn’t do it now

xienze 4y ago
Well, they weren’t lying. No one will be returning to that office, after all.
waboremo 4y ago
What's that saying, only a sith deals in absolutes?
- lolinder 4y ago
  Which has always been a rather ironic line lacking in self-awareness.
judge2020 4y ago
I imagine this is the case in most places: recruiters and managers are so far down in the chain that they can't be given information before the rest of the workforce, so they might legitimately not know whether or not a return-to-office plan is in action.
qbasic_forever 4y ago
"Oh great! Well if there's no way you'd do a RTO then we shouldn't have any problem writing remote only into my employment contract! I've just sent over the document with this change. Let's sign it, I'm ready to get to work!"
- walrus01 4y ago
  Isn't it amazing what kind of actual blunt answer about somebody's intentions you can get back from people when you send them back a copy of their file with MS Word "Track Changes" enabled and marked up in color, and ask them to approve it before becoming an executed agreement?

santoriv 4y ago

I can’t read the whole article but are they telling a bunch of people to move to Bentonville or Sunnyvale?

throwayyy479087 4y ago
I know which one I’d take
- tomcam 4y ago
  I assume you're being droll but to me (not a Walmart person) it seems like Bentonville would be better professionally since it's company HQ, and very much a company town? My completely unfounded theory is that it's generally a more savvy career move for your boss to see your face IRL? The thought is that if two candidates are equal, the one that actually shows up in the office is just going to be more likely to get the nod.
  - pinewurst 4y ago
    Setting aside the dubious merits of Arkansas (and yes I've been to Bentonville), why would a technology person move to where he'll never rise up that high in the greater organization? I think the answer to your question, is to recognize that you shouldn't put yourself into such a position.
    - humanistbot 4y ago
      Because internal promotions are so rare these days in tech. You have a much better chance at getting a promotion by getting another offer from a different company.
  - lesdeuxmagots 4y ago
    If you plan on being a Walmart lifer, sure. But what about your next job if that isn’t true? Better to be central to where the majority of companies and candidates are, where your ex-colleagues, parents of your children’s friends, and casual acquaintances (proverbial bowling league) all are part of a broader and accessible network for future job prospects. It also keeps you culturally (professionally) more similar to your next job’s culture.

bnert 4y ago

https://archive.is/MIB1W https://archive.is/MIB1W

Mc91 4y ago

I am a SWE at another Fortune 100 retailer...we have been told to start reporting to the office this month, after about three years of WFH. Two days a week to start with.

moneywoes 4y ago
Is it team dependent or org wide
- Mc91 4y ago
  It is not team dependent in our division. I know it is happening in another division too, since late January they've been required to be back in the office for some days during the week.

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Mountain_Skies 4y ago

Interesting that they contacted me just last week about an open position. I thought it was odd that the inside recruiter included an obviously abbreviated version of the job posting in her email to me. When I looked up some of the key phrases, I found the posting, which was listed as hybrid while my profile clearly indicates I only work 100% remote. When I asked her about how many days per week hybrid means, she said "about three", which sounds an awful lot like four to me, which probably also means that one (possibly two) work from home days would soon go away. She didn't respond to my request for their location. If she wasn't an inside recruiter, I would have thought it was a scam attempt. Got to wonder if the caginess is due to them having problems with finding people to take over the obviously on-site jobs. Sure, the initial contact could have been a simple mistake on her part, but then the editing of the job posting to exclude anything about hybrid and days in the office and then a resistance to explaining the details when I emailed her back is suspicious. I decided to not pursuit it further and now seeing this news, makes me feel like I made the right choice.

walrus01 4y ago
The short way of addressing this, if you are sufficiently senior in your position or in-demand for your tech skills, is to ensure that any offer letter has extremely unambiguous language written into it that your position is 100% remote and will remain remote. Tell that to the recruiter. If they don't do it, proceed with a short "thank you for your time but I am not interested" and move on.
- operatingthetan 4y ago
  I think given at-will employment they can renege on that agreement whenever they want. Obviously it's best to have a meeting of minds, but can you really ever trust a corporation? Probably not.
  - Aeolun 4y ago
    They can terminate you instead of allowing you to work remote, but they cannot renege on the agreement to allow you to work remote.

kneebonian 4y ago

Remember if it isnt in writing it isn't real.

jmathai 4y ago
If it's in writing, and you want to pay for lawyers, and things go your way, it's real.

ghaff 4y ago

I expect we'll see a bifurcation between companies that were supposedly WFH/remote-friendly/tolerant and become increasingly less so. And a much smaller number that actually are supportive of remote work as the default. Of course, there's no guarantee that the latter will offer pay scales similar to the former.

walrus01 4y ago

Telling tech workers like that to return to office as a mandate is just another way of executing a massive layoff. They have to know that a huge percentage of people will resign (or wait to be dismissed from their position for refusing) rather than uproot themselves and move their whole family to go work in a cubicle farm for Walmart. The people who will be left afterwards that happily do want to go live in Bentonville, AR and report to office 5 days a week will be the ones who have drunk the Walmart koolaid. That's my own idea of a personal hell.

monksy 4y ago

I just got a recruiter reach out to me about a Scala/Haskell oporturnity at Disney. Their claim was this was a "hybrid" position and required a relo to Sea, LA, SFO, NYC, or Orlando of 4x a week in office. Considering how much it's documented on how hard it's to find scala engineers... their demands of RTO _and_ a relo is laughable. Everyday, it feels like the corp's claims of a money crunch is self inflicted.

johnvanommen 4y ago
Disney is the worst place I've ever worked.
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
With a large brand like Disney, there's probably some arrogance involved too, believing they can alter the world to their liking. If the company was something like "Data Image Formatting Corporation of Delaware", I'd expect they'd be a bit more realistic about their ability to get people to accept such a deal outside of their local area.
Aeolun 4y ago
Does 4 days a week in the office constitute hybrid now? That’s full time office with a rest day.
- monksy 4y ago
  That's the casual dress version of rto.

Reptur 4y ago

I don't work for Walmart, but I'd expect pay increase to cover gas, car maintenance, and duration of drive to/from work. The drive to/from work has always been a freebie for companies, but they are depreciating your vehicle and you are working unpaid for travel time.

MaxHoppersGhost 4y ago
Did you or anyone else take a pay decrease when you went remote because you weren’t paying for gas/depreciation/time anymore? Otherwise this point is moot.
- Aeolun 4y ago
  Of course not, now you need to pay for heating and electricity, which the company also doesn’t refund.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  I was remote for five years before the pandemic, so for people like me, that's not applicable. At that particular company, they had ended or subleased most of their existing office space (maybe 80%) before the pandemic, which was very fortuitous for them. They still have a handful of offices, probably always will since their physical equipment needs are extensive, but no doubt they've enjoyed the savings from getting so much office space off their books.
deadmutex 4y ago
Heh, I remember a similar argument for WFH. "I have to pay for HVAC, increased electricity usage, etc." TBH, I don't think companies think about it in this fine grained way. They will just increase/decrease pay to get the level of demand they desire for their job openings.
gedy 4y ago
> you are working unpaid for travel time Not if you start counting the commute time in the 8 hours you are supposed to work. Needs an org that does not micromanagement you, but it's what I did when it was important to be in office.

lvl102 4y ago

Walmart only started these initiatives to APPEAR as Amazon competition. The company has some deep issues including BS they pull on hidden inventory across all of their stores.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago
Walmart recently shut down permanently the store I shopped at in my old town. At the time, there were already three cargo containers on the edge of the parking lot apparently holding excess stock that had been pushed down to the store over the years that they couldn't put out on the floor anymore due to space constraints. I've heard stories about pretty much every store having similar containers because the stock keeps on coming and if they can't get anyone to buy that ancient 500 meg external drive, they are also not able to just dispose of it either. I wonder what's happening with those containers and if the number grew since I moved away half a decade ago. Does some other store get that inventory dumped on it?

doitLP 4y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20230214000353/https://www.wsj.com/articles/walmart-to-close-three-tech-hubs-tells-tech-staff-to-return-to-offices-3fb131e4 https://web.archive.org/web/20230214000353/https://www.wsj.c...

nemo44x 4y ago

I’ve been to their offices in San Bruno and they’re quite nice. Good food service. Tech companies have to be feeling miffed about making these dream like places to work only for many people wanting to not go in. I feel like if I were young or old I’d want an office in large part to socialize. But anyone with kids probably really likes the flexibility of working at home. It’s life changing if you have a family.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Mountain_Skies 4y ago
The head of my department at my last company has three teenagers, all of which play sports. Working from home allowed him to take over the very extensive laundry duties that come with having three sports playing teens. Since laundry has lots of hands off waiting, it worked out perfect as most of his days are spent in meetings. He can change loads in between calls. It also meant we all knew not to let our meetings go over time, which was really a bonus to the rest of us.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Sounds like it is time to teach your teens how to do their laundry.
  - Ancalagon 4y ago
    I think they’re at school?
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      At some point they come home and can do it then. Any parent that becomes a servant to their teenager is doing a disservice to them. Your job is to teach them skills so they can become self sufficient adults.

bhhaskin 4y ago

If you want to work remotely, make sure it is stated in your employment contract. If it isn't then it's temporary and at the complete discretion of your employer.

frankbreetz 4y ago
What does it matter? In your contract or not, almost everything in the US is "At will", so they can just get you to accept another contract or stop your current one.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  It would ensure you are eligible for unemployment benefits in the event you are terminated because of the employer changing the work location.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    It blows my mind that in the US you can both lose your job for no reason at any time, and you also need to have an approved reason to collect welfare payments. Sounds like almost everyone is a few unfortunate events away from disaster.
    - bhhaskin 4y ago
      Unemployment insurance isn't welfare. It's insurance that you ultimately pay into via your employer and employment taxes. You can't claim unemployment if you quit.
  - bhhaskin 4y ago
    It also makes it harder to terminate. Yes the us is at will, but most orgs do not want to fire someone without cause. Wrongful termination is a thing.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago

71a54xd 4y ago

If people just don't fold we can still save remote work.

brewdad 4y ago
People need to eat. They will fold. Not everyone obviously but enough to see RTO pushes succeed.

aledalgrande 4y ago

My 2c is that hybrid doesn't work. The company would never turn the dial to 100 on remote tools, policies and rituals. And it's still tied to hubs so it's hard to hire from other geographical areas, in the same country or overseas. It's not freedom, it's a mess.

dividefuel 4y ago

Lots of companies calling workers back to the office these days. Did these companies originally commit to allowing permanent remote workers? Or were they unofficial policies due to the pandemic that kept getting extended?

softwaredoug 4y ago

The remote job market is going to get quite interesting. Would you create an in-person startup these days? Is that how you would start a company? My guess is you start a company remote first - if for no other reason to avoid the office cost, and be open to any talent. If many larger companies are in person - what does that mean for how things look in 10 years? With startups being more remote, would there be a bias towards remote workers, living in lower cost of living areas, actually being the hub of innovation? Making the "cities" a kind of anti-innovation-hub of more humdrum corporate work?

TylerE 4y ago
It it were me and I was truly starting a start up, I would do it in person, at least while we’re in the single digit employees, but it sure as hell wouldn’t be anywhere close to SF, where costs are just insane. It’s be somewhere with a reasonable CoL but still nice to live in… Charlotte/RTP, Nashville, maybe Chicago or Philly if you really wanted to be in a big metro. Alternative would be remote, but try to cluster the employees so you could get together in person a few times a month with no one (ideally) having to drive much more than an hour or so round trip.
- techsupporter 4y ago
  > It’s be somewhere with a reasonable CoL but still nice to live in… The funny thing is, this is why companies were in San Francisco. Back when the tech industry was far less than it is now, San Francisco was "a reasonable CoL but still nice to live in" even though it was all the way over there in California. Then San Francisco got expensive so people tried Seattle...then Denver...then Austin...and so the wheel turns. And each time, we fail to learn the lessons of what made those places get more expensive as more people wanted to move there. Then we try again somewhere else, expecting that new people won't have the back story and existing people will happily move. I've been working on computers for a job for decades and we still haven't gotten it right.
  - acchow 4y ago
    > San Francisco was "a reasonable CoL but still nice to live in" even though it was all the way over there in California. Can you provide some citations on this? I've been told San Francisco has always been expensive.

cooperadymas 4y ago

I think what everyone is missing is the timing of these RTO orders. There's a huge swath of tech playoffs right now. Tens or hundreds of thousands of devs are out of work and looking. Many, many others are worried they are next on the chopping block. There's no better time for big corps to make unpopular decisions like this. Many employees will be scared to refuse the mandate, because they see the layoffs. They fear for their job. They see the market is tough for getting hired elsewhere. They'll go back to the office out of fear. If devs leave, it will be easier than ever to replace them.

pcan77 4y ago
This, and most of the recession was manufactured to take worker power away that was gained during WFH/pandemic times. It's not a coincidence that the FAANG companies were fined a combined 45M (chump change to them) when caught colluding to stagnant tech worker wages. I almost guarantee they colluded in layoffs/getting people to RTO.
- umeshunni 4y ago
  It's 415M, not 45M and it's technically not FAANG companies - it was Apple, Google, Intel and Adobe. If anything Facebook is responsible for the vast increase in tech comp over the last 12 years.
kcplate 4y ago
I find it remarkable the level of arrogance that the pandemic shift to WFH has given the tech community. Both my wife and I WFH and certainly want to continue it, but if our companies tomorrow told us they were doing RTO we’d be disappointed but would of course go. We spent decades of our careers in an office and only 3 short years outside of one. Some folks on HN do not realize yet that well paying WFH employment opportunities will become scarce in 2023, and if your default position is to demand WFH, companies will just move on to the next candidate of the 100k that are available that can do your job just as well as you can and are willing to show up at an office.

purple_ferret 4y ago

Isn't there a tech hub in Jersey City at the old Jet office? What's with forcing people to move to Arkansas?

Ancalagon 4y ago
No competition for talent in Arkansas. It’s quite simple. Keeps their employment costs down.

bigbillheck 4y ago

Considering how Walmart treats their other workers, it shouldn't be any surprise how they treat tech workers.

ericmcer 4y ago

I wonder if this is somehow correlated with all the layoffs. Return to the status quo, cut down the massive hiring during the pandemic, scare everyone into RTO, get back to pre-pandemic worker relations.

jrs235 4y ago

This is the next wave: soft layoffs. Reducing headcount without "having to pay" severance and allowing for some self-selection. "We didn't fire them! They chose to go!" and saves money at the same time.

Ancalagon 4y ago

I worked in one of those locations being shut down. Suresh’s leadership and direction - or lack thereof - made it pretty clear to me that investment in the US would wane under his rule. Needless to say, I do not work for Walmart anymore.

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hlship 4y ago

I wonder what the real story is here. When I left Walmart last June, the Portland office was already 100% remote, with no intention of reopening the office (it had been WeWork space before the pandemic). My team had been 100% remote since it was formed. I’m pretty bad at the rumors game, but even so, by the time I left, it was clear to me that Walmart considered its IT future to be based in India.

actionablefiber 4y ago

This is a layoff disguised as RTO. Part of the giveaway is that there are some exemptions being made to keep some employees on full WFH.

dilyevsky 4y ago
Ianal but pretty sure you can’t just move the work site halfway across the country and then fire everybody who doesn’t show up for cause.
- MathMonkeyMan 4y ago
  You don't have to fire them. Some will quit because fuck that, and others will cave under the pressure and acquiesce or quit later. And maybe you can fire them, I don't know.
- DigitalGeppetto 4y ago
  "For cause" isn't relevant here. The point is that whoever doesn't want to move will be terminated, which is perfectly legal. Walmart is betting that a big chunk of its employees in places like Portland OR aren't going to move to Bentonville, AR, and then it can terminate them and have an effective layoff that doesn't look like a layoff. Pretty safe bet.
  - neilv 4y ago
    If that were the plan, would Oregon officials (for example) pressure to treat it as a layoff?
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      On what basic would/could they make this argument?
      - red-iron-pine 4y ago
        Constructive Dismissal is a thing.

victor9000 4y ago

Everyone hop on the brain drain express -Walmart Recruiters

bdcravens 4y ago
Not sure what you mean by that. I understand that Walmart is kind of a low reputation retailer, but the tech side of things has always been ahead of the curve.
- DigitalGeppetto 4y ago
  Walmart was never a prestigious or highly desirable employer for engineers. Its general reputation is strictly worse than Amazon.
  - myalphabet 4y ago
    Despite the impression that Amazon is a hellplace, it remains one of the most desired places in the world for software engineers to work, so being "worse than Amazon" isn't saying much. Walmart's tech side of things is very highly regarded both for the work, as well for the pay. They pay $200-300k for people from 5-10/yrs experience, which despite being below FAANG level, still puts it squarely among the top paying companies for software development.
    - schreiaj 4y ago
      They are also a great place to cut your teeth on the FAANG type problems because, as it turns out, they face similar scale issues. There's a lot of "second tier" tech companies that have some really cool problems at massive scales that also pay really well. Not as obviously sexy as FAANGs though.
    - Jcowell 4y ago
      > it remains one of the most desired places in the world for software engineers to work The word desired here feels weird to me. I just wouldn’t describe it as people desiring to work there. People desire to work at Apple. People desire to work at Meta even. Amazon to me seems kinda like a pit stop FAANG wise? Maybe it’s the PIP culture there that taints my view

NDizzle 4y ago

They want people in Bentonville. The new headquarters is being built faster than anything of that size that I've ever seen being built. There's something like a dozen buildings going up at once. Maybe more, it's hard to keep track.

kylehotchkiss 4y ago
What’s the draw to get tech workers to migrate there, other than lower home prices? Seems like a notable decline in quality of life compared to their soon to be closed hubs.
- Pegasus930 4y ago
  While I don't have any plans of working for Walmart, a nice campus and decent pay in an affordable, beautiful, very low cost location is alluring.
- justin66 4y ago
  Requiring hires to live in Bentonville is one way to ensure they are a "culture fit."
- SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
  It may be hard to believe, but there are lifestyles that don’t thrive in California.
  - tjr225 4y ago
    [dead]
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    California became so popular because it accommodated lots of different lifestyles, its main drawback ATM is that it’s too popular (so lots of people are priced out). Bentonville is us in northwest Arkansas, right in the Ozarks, I wouldn’t really consider it in the same boat with the rest of the state. I hear it’s actually a nice place to live if you can bare living in a red state (which, these days, has lots of legal drawbacks).

ravenstine 4y ago

Maybe they know something I don't, but Walmart doesn't strike me as the kind of company or location that a lot of good talent would go back to the office for. The decision to close the hubs at least makes some sense; exactly how much technology has Walmart been getting out of them?

DigitalGeppetto 4y ago
It's not the kind of company great talent would have chosen in the first place. However, their best talent will be allowed to continue working remotely so they don't leave.
benced 4y ago
Especially for Bensenville
porknubbins 4y ago
I think Walmart was one of the first to roll out real time inventory tracking/ tagging. In my experience big distopian megacorps are pretty enthusiastic on tech.
Consultant32452 4y ago
If you have any interest in supply chain or logistics, Walmart would be among the top places in the world to work.
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myrandomcomment 4y ago
I am in tech. I have had Walmart as a customer. Their use of technology is amazingly complex and challenging. They are on the bleeding edge on a number of things. Just because they do not look like Amazon publicly, does not mean they are not privately.
foobazzy 4y ago
I know that Walmart Labs India office is good. A quick internet search gives me these things. [1] https://github.com/orgs/walmartlabs/repositories https://github.com/orgs/walmartlabs/repositories [2] https://corporate.walmart.com/IRL/ https://corporate.walmart.com/IRL/ [3] https://medium.com/walmartglobaltech https://medium.com/walmartglobaltech Based on these, I would say they're investing heavily in tech. And their tech is interesting in some ways. Edit: formatting

sircastor 4y ago

I interviewed to work with Walmart's tech group many years ago. It was not a great experience. I admit that part of that was me (I was eager to leave my current role, but my heart wasn't really in this). The thing that stands out most to me is that I was asked to do some sort of data transformation and pointed out that there was a severe issue with the task they were asking me to do. Apparently they "asked everyone to do this" but I was the only person who'd ever brought it up. It felt really weird to me, but they weren't interested in moving forward, and I wasn't really either.

ravagat 4y ago
Would you say their interview process is similar to FAANG? I've had recruiters reach out but I have yet to take up an interview
- sircastor 4y ago
  The only FAANG I've ever interviewed at was Amazon, and the Walmart Tech stuff did not feel like that at all. Which is to say, Amazon was far more challenging and time consuming. Walmart felt like interviewing at any large company that has a software group.
  - ravagat 4y ago
    Interesting! Thanks for following up.

analognoise 4y ago

"A ResumeBuilder.com survey of 1,000 business leaders found that 90 percent plan to require employees to return to the office at least some of the time in 2023. Twenty-one percent plan to separate from workers who refuse to come back to work in person." Just don't listen if they ask you to come back and you've got ~4/5 chance of it not being an issue; they'll give up eventually.

theowawayasd 4y ago

I will resign if iam forced to work from home.

saos 4y ago

Basically a way to layoff staff.

ravagat 4y ago

I might be alone in this and I am completely unaware of what the work that goes on in Walmart under tech/software but I wouldn't mind RTO if there are some higher-level interesting work being done along logistics, manufacturing, efficiency-related work