13 ms·

U.S. FAA closes some airspace in Montana for Defense Department activities

236 points by moose_man 4y ago

lsh123 4y ago
[flagged]
TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
Nothing to see here.
- roywiggins 4y ago
  Balloons may be many things, but "rapid" is not exactly their strong suit.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
moose_man 4y ago
This is happening now Edit: NOTAM : 3/4763 FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 1 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS. PURSUANT TO 49 USC 40103(B)(3), THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) CLASSIFIES THE AIRSPACE DEFINED IN THIS NOTAM AS 'NTL DEFENSE AIRSPACE'. PILOTS WHO DO NOT ADHERE TO THE FOLLOWING PROC MAY BE INTERCEPTED, DETAINED AND INTERVIEWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT/ SECURITY PERSONNEL. ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL ACTIONS MAY ALSO BE TAKEN AGAINST A PILOT WHO DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE RQMNTS OR ANY SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS OR PROC ANNOUNCED IN THIS NOTAM: A) THE FAA MAY TAKE ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION, INCLUDING IMPOSING CIVIL PENALTIES AND THE SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF AIRMEN CERTIFICATES; OR B) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY PURSUE CRIMINAL CHARGES, INCLUDING CHARGES UNDER 49 USC SECTION 46307; C) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST THE AIRBORNE ACFT, IF IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE ACFT POSES AN IMMINENT SECURITY THREAT; OR D) UAS OPERATORS WHO DO NOT COMPLY WITH APPLICABLE AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS ARE WARNED THAT PURSUANT TO 10 U.S.C. SECTION 130I AND 2302120020-PERM END PART 1 OF 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 2 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT 6 U.S.C. SECTION 124N, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE (DOD), THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (DHS) OR THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE (DOJ) MAY TAKE SECURITY ACTION THAT RESULTS IN THE INTERFERENCE, DISRUPTION, SEIZURE, DAMAGING, OR DESTRUCTION OF UNMANNED AIRCRAFT DEEMED TO POSE A CREDIBLE SAFETY OR SECURITY THREAT TO PROTECTED PERSONNEL, FACILITIES, OR ASSETS. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, ALL ACFT FLT OPS ARE PROHIBITED: WI AN AREA DEFINED AS 485411N1101823W TO 481105N1101922W TO 481145N1091337W TO 485516N1091407W TO THE POINT OF ORIGIN. SFC-34,000' MSL EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. EXCEPTIONS: A) NATIONAL SECURITY ACFT OPS UNDER DIRECTION OF DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE; AND B) LAW ENFORCEMENT, AIR AMBULANCE, AND OTHER URGENT GOVERNMENTAL RESPONSE ACFT OPS WITH AUTHORIZATION FROM ATC (ATC MUST SECURE PRE-APPROVAL BY THE ON DUTY NATIONAL TACTICAL SECURITY OPERATIONS AIR TRAFFIC SECURITY COORDINATOR). 2302120020-PERM END PART 2 OF 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 3 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT ALL AIRCRAFT, WHICH ARE ALREADY AIRBORNE WITHIN THE DEFINED AIRSPACE WHEN THIS TFR BECOMES EFFECTIVE, MUST EXIT THE AREA USING THE MOST EXPEDITIOUS ROUTE CONSISTENT WITH SAFETY AND IN COORDINATION WITH ATC AS APPROPRIATE. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE TEL 850-283-5242 IS THE CDN FACILITY. 2302120020-PERM END PART 3 OF 3 F15s launched out of Portland airbase https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624576868140679168?s=20 https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624576868140679168?... Billings airport is closed due to national security activity - https://twitter.com/AviationTracker/status/1624578554863165446 https://twitter.com/AviationTracker/status/16245785548631654... Two tankers tasked to the area -https://twitter.com/nicksortor/status/1624570681710063618 https://twitter.com/nicksortor/status/1624570681710063618 F15 Scramble Audio - https://twitter.com/airplaneian/status/1624572671911424000 https://twitter.com/airplaneian/status/1624572671911424000
- jawns 4y ago
  About 12 years ago, I created a tool called IntelliCAPS, which intelligently converts ALL CAPS to mixed case. Basically, if the word is not in the dictionary, it assumes it's a proper noun and capitalizes it. It also recognizes some common acronyms and preserves them as all-caps. It's not perfect, but it's arguably more readable than the original. Here's its output: Notam : 3/4763 FDC 3/4763 ZLC part 1 of 3 mt..airspace Havre, mt..temporary flight restrictions. Pursuant to 49 USC 40103(b)(3), the federal aviation administration (FAA) classifies the airspace defined in this Notam as 'NTL defense airspace'. Pilots who do not adhere to the following Proc may be intercepted, detained and interviewed by law enforcement/ security personnel. Any of the following additional actions may also be taken against a pilot who does not comply with the Rqmnts or any special instructions or Proc announced in this Notam: a) the FAA may take administrative action, including imposing civil penalties and the suspension or revocation of airmen certificates; or b) the united states government may pursue criminal charges, including charges under 49 USC section 46307; c) the united states government may use deadly force against the airborne Acft, if it is determined that the Acft poses an imminent security threat; or d) UAS operators who do not comply with applicable airspace restrictions are warned that pursuant to 10 u.s.c. Section 130i and 2302120020-perm end part 1 of 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC part 2 of 3 mt..airspace Havre, mt..temporary flight 6 u.s.c. Section 124n, the department of defense (DOD), the department of homeland security (DHS) or the department of justice (DOJ) may take security action that results in the interference, disruption, seizure, damaging, or destruction of unmanned aircraft deemed to pose a credible safety or security threat to protected personnel, facilities, or assets. Pursuant to 14 CFR 99.7, special security instructions, all Acft flt ops are prohibited: WI an area defined as 485411n1101823w to 481105n1101922w to 481145n1091337w to 485516n1091407w to the point of origin. SFC-34,000' MSL effective immediately until further notice. Exceptions: a) national security Acft ops under direction of department of defense; and b) law enforcement, air ambulance, and other urgent governmental response Acft ops with authorization from ATC (ATC must secure PRE-approval by the on duty national tactical security operations air traffic security coordinator). 2302120020-perm end part 2 of 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC part 3 of 3 mt..airspace Havre, mt..temporary flight all aircraft, which are already airborne within the defined airspace when this TFR becomes effective, must exit the area using the most expeditious route consistent with safety and in coordination with ATC as appropriate. Department of defense tel 850-283-5242 is the CDN facility. 2302120020-perm end part 3 of 3
NikxDa 4y ago
U.S. airspace is pretty wild those last couple of days. Is this "normal" day-to-day activity that previously just never got any attention, or is something rather odd about the amount of these kinds of things in the past few days?
- FL410 4y ago
  NOTAMs/TFRs are not particularly noteworthy, but this kind of TFR reads like something non-routine and out of the ordinary.
  - moose_man 4y ago
    Yeah there is a lot of crazy things happening all at once, some at sea, some with lasers over Hawaii, some with balloons. Not sure what this adds up to. Alone, each incident seems quite manageable but together its sort of overwhelming.
    - iskander 4y ago
      I haven't seen most of these as news stories, where do you learn about what's going on?
      - moose_man 4y ago
        Here (This happened in late January, but Japanese scientists recently figured out what happened) https://www.thedailybeast.com/chinese-satellite-likely-shot-green-laser-wall-over-hawaii https://www.thedailybeast.com/chinese-satellite-likely-shot-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-12/japan-says-chinese-navy-ship-entered-its-waters-early-sunday https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-12/japan-say... Plus the downing over Alaska and Canada
        bushbaba 4y ago
        War with china will make Covid look like happy times. Really hope xi backs down a bit.
ksherlock 4y ago
Havre is just north of the Hays MOA (Military Operations Area, meaning check with controlling authority before flying because there may be military operations) but this is outside the MOA. http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=48.543&lon=-109.762&zoom=9 http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=48.543&lon=-109.762&zoom=9
71a54xd 4y ago
[flagged]
freitzkriesler2 4y ago
[flagged]
- david927 4y ago
  I expect it between now and summer.
- graphe 4y ago
  Why? The draft is gone in the US. It is traditionally isolationist. There will be no Great War despite experts saying so. At worst you’ll see weapons being shipped overseas to fund rebels/terrorism against enemies.
  - photonbeam 4y ago
    Isn’t selective service is still in force?
    - graphe 4y ago
      Yes. But at this fitness level and only half of Americans would stay and fight. How many are willing to train, go overseas, fight and not dodge the draft?
      - 65a 4y ago
        I don't think an attack on the US or key partners is comparable to what was seen when a draft was used to support a failing French colony. It'd be pretty dangerous to conflate those outcomes, in my opinion.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    Sounds like what the Europeans were saying before Feb’22…
    - philwelch 4y ago
      Or July ‘14….
hoppyhoppy2 4y ago
Update: The airspace has been reopened. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-closes-some-airspace-montana-defense-department-activities-2023-02-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-closes-some-airspace...
aaron695 4y ago
[dead]
cirrus3 4y ago
Is this a common occurrence, or just being watched and reported on more actively due to recent events?
TylerLives 4y ago
My prediction seems to be coming true - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34196705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34196705
- doctor_eval 4y ago
  “We'll get a message from aliens, but no one will understand what it means.” Unclear how it’s related.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  Isn't there some board for out there conspiracies?
- 0xGod 4y ago
  Time for the Rapture soon.
dadadad100 4y ago
These things happen very often and there could be many explanations. Every time the President moves one is declared. There is a permanent one at Beale AFB, CA. And there are permanent ones at Disneyland and Disney World. Any aviation mapping source and many weather apps with aviation data (MyRadar is my choice) shows these come and go.
tus666 4y ago
Is this unusual? Serious qn.
- vkou 4y ago
  The only truthful answer to this is that the media reporting on it this much is unusual.
leonidasv 4y ago
Apparently, nothing was found at the reported site. The airspace is now open again. https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624595395635474433 https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624595395635474433 https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1624593417878528001 https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/16245934178785280...
- moose_man 4y ago
  "NORAD detected a radar anomaly and sent fighter aircraft to investigate. Those aircraft did not identify any object to correlate to the radar hits. NORAD will continue to monitor the situation." Interesting, maybe it was a stealth aircraft? NORAD could probably detect a stealth aircraft like the Serbs did in the 1990s, but getting a precise location would be difficult.
  - partiallypro 4y ago
    More likely an anomaly mixed with an already cautious NORAD due to the past week of incidents.
  - tempestn 4y ago
    Other articles have reported they've changed how they're filtering radar signals, which could partially explain why more real objects are being found now, but would also result in additional false positives. > The incursions in the past week have changed how analysts receive and interpret information from radars and sensors, a U.S. official said Saturday, partly addressing a key question of why so many objects have recently surfaced. > The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said that sensory equipment absorbs a lot of raw data, and filters are used so humans and machines can make sense of what is collected. But that process always runs the risk of leaving out something important, the official said. > “We basically opened the filters,” the official added https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/02/11/military-shootdown-alaska-flying-object/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/02/11/...
    - nerdponx 4y ago
kqr2 4y ago
Although it might not be related to the Chinese balloon, does the US have the technology to capture it intact vs shooting it down? It seems like they are going through a lot of trouble now to recover the pieces after it was shot down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-air_retrieval https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-air_retrieval
- sjs382 4y ago
  I'd imagine that there's enough of a possibility of an ability to self-destruct that it may not be worth the risk.
  - kqr2 4y ago
    I feel if the balloon was carrying an explosive payload this would definitely be an act of war. Would it be worth it for the Chinese to do that?
    - zxexz 4y ago
      The payload doesn’t have to be explosive to be self destructive. Spy gear and weather gear can be the same hardware, I assume the ROM on the hardware and the data collected would be the real evidence. Some well-placed magnesium strips or maybe even deleting the data as a failsafe would be effective. Wouldn’t surprise me if shooting it down was the least risky idea. It’ll probably be 40 years until we know what the real reasoning is though!
    - _zzaw 4y ago
      It would absolutely be bad, and there would—I hope—be consequences, but if they clearly didn't intend to bomb anything, it would probably not be considered any more of an act of war than if their balloon fell out of the sky and hurt someone.
    - ttyprintk 4y ago
      Could you tell a lithium battery apart from an intentional self-destruct?
- 4y ago
notdonspaulding 4y ago
They found an object which has now been shot down by a US fighter jet over Canadian territory: https://apnews.com/article/united-states-government-canada-ottawa-93071207f2bbdf93b591d6b40ce1cb5a https://apnews.com/article/united-states-government-canada-o...
- redtriumph 4y ago
  That's different from the situation noted in linked article. That happened before the airspace was closed.
- _zzaw 4y ago
  I'm very curious to hear more about this. All we know so far is that it was apparently cylindrical and the size of a small car. I'm wondering if it was a small zeppelin. The shape would be more suitable for piloting, but it could stay aloft longer than a drone; would not surprise me at all if the Chinese were experimenting with those.
_boffin_ 4y ago
If you guys take a look at this from 3 years ago, you'll see that this doesn't seem like an uptick, but rather it seems like it's being publicized a lot more as of recent as well as some good target practice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Midn_UNnj5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Midn_UNnj5I
- ultrarunner 4y ago
  That seems pretty focused on the border with Russia over Alaska. The incident in Montana seems pretty far inland for that to apply. I'm sure there are organizations testing the waters all the time, though, be that with bombers or balloons.
  - _boffin_ 4y ago
    Correct, that video was focused on that area, but remember, there's these all up and down the coastlines
thepasswordis 4y ago
The Montana Governor was briefed at The White House about this tonight https://mobile.twitter.com/GovGianforte/status/1624596970491854850 https://mobile.twitter.com/GovGianforte/status/1624596970491... >I received a briefing tonight at the White House about an object in Montana airspace. I will continue to receive regular updates. >With questions about the Chinese spy balloon still unanswered, the Biden administration must be fully forthcoming with Montanans and all Americans. One of Montana's house reps said: >I am in direct contact with NORCOM and monitoring the latest issue over Havre and the northern border. Airspace is closed due to an object that could interfere with commercial air traffic — the DOD will resume efforts to observe and ground the object in the morning. https://twitter.com/RepRosendale/status/1624579901608034306 https://twitter.com/RepRosendale/status/1624579901608034306 Something is definitely happening. We shot down an object over Alaska yesterday, and then again today we shot down yet another object over Canada. That's three objects shot down in about a week, whereas the last time we shot anything down over US airspace was arguably during WW2.
- whamlastxmas 4y ago
  [flagged]
- golemotron 4y ago
  Did the Governor of Montana just happen to be in DC or was he summoned there?
  - thepasswordis 4y ago
    He was in Washington, D.C. for the National Governors Association Winter meetup: https://mobile.twitter.com/NatlGovsAssoc/status/1624473506158112771 https://mobile.twitter.com/NatlGovsAssoc/status/162447350615...
  - nradov 4y ago
    Technically the federal government has no legal authority to "summon" state governors. All they can do is request and invite.
  - 4y ago
hnczwml 4y ago
It's funny. Meteorological departments in so many countries around the world release balloons every day. Why is it aimed at China? Are Chinese balloons different?
99_00 4y ago
Send 100 over china for each one they send here. Problem will be solved quick.
- georgeg23 4y ago
  We'd probably buy our 100 on Alibaba
  - TrueSlacker0 4y ago
    With next day air shipping
giardini 4y ago
Did the Chinese "weather balloon" seed or drop some objects/material while passing over the USA?
- judge2020 4y ago
  Looks like they're monitoring it before recovery: > A second U.S official also told ABC News that while the main reconnaissance section of the balloon has been found, recovery operations have been suspended until Monday because of rough waters. The official said the rough weather was outside the window under which Navy divers could safely conduct operations. > Because of harsh conditions, measures have been taken to ensure that the debris underwater doesn't move with the currents. Among those measures, the official said, was the addition of weights and acoustic-pinging devices so they can be easily located once operations resume. > The USS Carter Hall has returned to shore with the balloon remnants recovered so far and a contracted crane ship has arrived at the location offshore and will remain there until salvage operations resume. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-believes-chinese-surveillance-balloon-payload-located-official/story?id=97033113 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-believes-chinese-surveill...
- cycrutchfield 4y ago
  [flagged]
nszceta 4y ago
What if this balloon is carrying a small yield nuclear payload or dirty bomb?
- ipnon 4y ago
  This doesn’t make game theoretic sense. There is a ladder of escalation but nuclear surprise attacks are at the end. A single surprise nuclear strike makes little sense because it would preempt an immediate counterforce strike. In that case it makes more sense to just do a full counterforce strike yourself. Let me be clear it doesn’t make sense for USA or PRC to use nuclear weapons at this time. There’s simply no need to escalate all the way.
  - nszceta 4y ago
    It does make sense to completely cripple critical infrastructure initially with plausible deniability. Combine this with the Ohio derailment and the uncaught substation snipers which knew an awful lot about what equipment to take out. Derailment is a powerful sabotage tool. Americans were caught attempting it in Russia years ago. https://tass.com/politics/1313063 https://tass.com/politics/1313063 They are trying to weaken infrastructure by making taxpayers bleed time, money, and effort.
    - ianburrell 4y ago
      A nuke isn’t plausible deniability. They, and the balloon, can be tracked back to source. Someone in another post was worried about balloons dropping bombs. Guided glide bomb would be pretty effective. But the balloon isn’t stealth. As we’re seeing, even small objects can be tracked by radar. Also, bombs are heavy and that means a large balloon. Something the size of the ground visible spy balloon. Infrastructure is more resilient than you think. I doubt there is a spot where a single bomb could cripple things. If there was, a ground bomb would be effective and easier.
      - nszceta 4y ago
        > can be tracked back to source Not sure I believe that it can be done beyond a reasonable doubt. I still don't see what evidence there is that these things are Chinese. It's probably speculation and nothing more. It might still be true, but the attribution is likely highly speculative.
petodo 4y ago
I like how we have here at least 5 posts within few hours about smokescr... sorry unidentified flying objects, yet I don't see a single post about Ohio train explosion with giant cloud of polyvinyl chloride and a ton of other bad chemicals and there is media blackout about it https://twitter.com/falconryfinance/status/1624087503786631168 https://twitter.com/falconryfinance/status/16240875037866311...
- tgv 4y ago
  So, first you throw in some conspiracy stuff, and then appeal to some sense of injustice by adding some unrelated incident, as if that proves anything? The latter is widely reported, and probably not of the HN's crowd's interest.
amrb 4y ago
I remember this anime Jormungand in which they used an EMP for the purpose of disabling all flights & satellites, that forces the world to be fully dependent on sea shipping (far fetched but was the story). On the flight point, I'd find it disappointing if nations uses a cheaper version trolling airspace with balloons.
zeristor 4y ago
Are the balloons red? Maybe we’ll get to the 99th in a month or so at this rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Luftballons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Luftballons
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
detrites 4y ago
Now China has announced they're shooting one down: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1624734766057803776 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/16247347660578037... (Separate post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34762443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34762443 )
- dmix 4y ago
  This would be a useful information operation to push the "UFO" angle being pushed on social media. Rather than the NATO countries broadening their radar search to look for smaller objects, generating plenty of false positives and detection of things they missed before.
klqprt 4y ago
[flagged]
- kranke155 4y ago
  Any comercial airline or military pilot that’s flown long term will have a UFO story, from his own experience or someone told him. Has been the case for ages. I have a relative who was a pilot and he would always tell me UFO stories from other people.

236 points by moose_man 4y ago

lsh123 4y ago

[flagged]

TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago

Nothing to see here.

roywiggins 4y ago
Balloons may be many things, but "rapid" is not exactly their strong suit.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

moose_man 4y ago

This is happening now Edit: NOTAM : 3/4763 FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 1 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS. PURSUANT TO 49 USC 40103(B)(3), THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) CLASSIFIES THE AIRSPACE DEFINED IN THIS NOTAM AS 'NTL DEFENSE AIRSPACE'. PILOTS WHO DO NOT ADHERE TO THE FOLLOWING PROC MAY BE INTERCEPTED, DETAINED AND INTERVIEWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT/ SECURITY PERSONNEL. ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL ACTIONS MAY ALSO BE TAKEN AGAINST A PILOT WHO DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE RQMNTS OR ANY SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS OR PROC ANNOUNCED IN THIS NOTAM: A) THE FAA MAY TAKE ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION, INCLUDING IMPOSING CIVIL PENALTIES AND THE SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF AIRMEN CERTIFICATES; OR B) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY PURSUE CRIMINAL CHARGES, INCLUDING CHARGES UNDER 49 USC SECTION 46307; C) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST THE AIRBORNE ACFT, IF IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE ACFT POSES AN IMMINENT SECURITY THREAT; OR D) UAS OPERATORS WHO DO NOT COMPLY WITH APPLICABLE AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS ARE WARNED THAT PURSUANT TO 10 U.S.C. SECTION 130I AND 2302120020-PERM END PART 1 OF 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 2 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT 6 U.S.C. SECTION 124N, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE (DOD), THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (DHS) OR THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE (DOJ) MAY TAKE SECURITY ACTION THAT RESULTS IN THE INTERFERENCE, DISRUPTION, SEIZURE, DAMAGING, OR DESTRUCTION OF UNMANNED AIRCRAFT DEEMED TO POSE A CREDIBLE SAFETY OR SECURITY THREAT TO PROTECTED PERSONNEL, FACILITIES, OR ASSETS. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, ALL ACFT FLT OPS ARE PROHIBITED: WI AN AREA DEFINED AS 485411N1101823W TO 481105N1101922W TO 481145N1091337W TO 485516N1091407W TO THE POINT OF ORIGIN. SFC-34,000' MSL EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. EXCEPTIONS: A) NATIONAL SECURITY ACFT OPS UNDER DIRECTION OF DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE; AND B) LAW ENFORCEMENT, AIR AMBULANCE, AND OTHER URGENT GOVERNMENTAL RESPONSE ACFT OPS WITH AUTHORIZATION FROM ATC (ATC MUST SECURE PRE-APPROVAL BY THE ON DUTY NATIONAL TACTICAL SECURITY OPERATIONS AIR TRAFFIC SECURITY COORDINATOR). 2302120020-PERM END PART 2 OF 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC PART 3 OF 3 MT..AIRSPACE HAVRE, MT..TEMPORARY FLIGHT ALL AIRCRAFT, WHICH ARE ALREADY AIRBORNE WITHIN THE DEFINED AIRSPACE WHEN THIS TFR BECOMES EFFECTIVE, MUST EXIT THE AREA USING THE MOST EXPEDITIOUS ROUTE CONSISTENT WITH SAFETY AND IN COORDINATION WITH ATC AS APPROPRIATE. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE TEL 850-283-5242 IS THE CDN FACILITY. 2302120020-PERM END PART 3 OF 3 F15s launched out of Portland airbase https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624576868140679168?s=20 https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624576868140679168?... Billings airport is closed due to national security activity - https://twitter.com/AviationTracker/status/1624578554863165446 https://twitter.com/AviationTracker/status/16245785548631654... Two tankers tasked to the area -https://twitter.com/nicksortor/status/1624570681710063618 https://twitter.com/nicksortor/status/1624570681710063618 F15 Scramble Audio - https://twitter.com/airplaneian/status/1624572671911424000 https://twitter.com/airplaneian/status/1624572671911424000

jawns 4y ago
About 12 years ago, I created a tool called IntelliCAPS, which intelligently converts ALL CAPS to mixed case. Basically, if the word is not in the dictionary, it assumes it's a proper noun and capitalizes it. It also recognizes some common acronyms and preserves them as all-caps. It's not perfect, but it's arguably more readable than the original. Here's its output: Notam : 3/4763 FDC 3/4763 ZLC part 1 of 3 mt..airspace Havre, mt..temporary flight restrictions. Pursuant to 49 USC 40103(b)(3), the federal aviation administration (FAA) classifies the airspace defined in this Notam as 'NTL defense airspace'. Pilots who do not adhere to the following Proc may be intercepted, detained and interviewed by law enforcement/ security personnel. Any of the following additional actions may also be taken against a pilot who does not comply with the Rqmnts or any special instructions or Proc announced in this Notam: a) the FAA may take administrative action, including imposing civil penalties and the suspension or revocation of airmen certificates; or b) the united states government may pursue criminal charges, including charges under 49 USC section 46307; c) the united states government may use deadly force against the airborne Acft, if it is determined that the Acft poses an imminent security threat; or d) UAS operators who do not comply with applicable airspace restrictions are warned that pursuant to 10 u.s.c. Section 130i and 2302120020-perm end part 1 of 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC part 2 of 3 mt..airspace Havre, mt..temporary flight 6 u.s.c. Section 124n, the department of defense (DOD), the department of homeland security (DHS) or the department of justice (DOJ) may take security action that results in the interference, disruption, seizure, damaging, or destruction of unmanned aircraft deemed to pose a credible safety or security threat to protected personnel, facilities, or assets. Pursuant to 14 CFR 99.7, special security instructions, all Acft flt ops are prohibited: WI an area defined as 485411n1101823w to 481105n1101922w to 481145n1091337w to 485516n1091407w to the point of origin. SFC-34,000' MSL effective immediately until further notice. Exceptions: a) national security Acft ops under direction of department of defense; and b) law enforcement, air ambulance, and other urgent governmental response Acft ops with authorization from ATC (ATC must secure PRE-approval by the on duty national tactical security operations air traffic security coordinator). 2302120020-perm end part 2 of 3 FDC 3/4763 ZLC part 3 of 3 mt..airspace Havre, mt..temporary flight all aircraft, which are already airborne within the defined airspace when this TFR becomes effective, must exit the area using the most expeditious route consistent with safety and in coordination with ATC as appropriate. Department of defense tel 850-283-5242 is the CDN facility. 2302120020-perm end part 3 of 3

NikxDa 4y ago

U.S. airspace is pretty wild those last couple of days. Is this "normal" day-to-day activity that previously just never got any attention, or is something rather odd about the amount of these kinds of things in the past few days?

FL410 4y ago
NOTAMs/TFRs are not particularly noteworthy, but this kind of TFR reads like something non-routine and out of the ordinary.
- moose_man 4y ago
  Yeah there is a lot of crazy things happening all at once, some at sea, some with lasers over Hawaii, some with balloons. Not sure what this adds up to. Alone, each incident seems quite manageable but together its sort of overwhelming.
  - iskander 4y ago
    I haven't seen most of these as news stories, where do you learn about what's going on?
    - moose_man 4y ago
      Here (This happened in late January, but Japanese scientists recently figured out what happened) https://www.thedailybeast.com/chinese-satellite-likely-shot-green-laser-wall-over-hawaii https://www.thedailybeast.com/chinese-satellite-likely-shot-... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-12/japan-says-chinese-navy-ship-entered-its-waters-early-sunday https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-12/japan-say... Plus the downing over Alaska and Canada
      - bushbaba 4y ago
        War with china will make Covid look like happy times. Really hope xi backs down a bit.

ksherlock 4y ago

Havre is just north of the Hays MOA (Military Operations Area, meaning check with controlling authority before flying because there may be military operations) but this is outside the MOA. http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=48.543&lon=-109.762&zoom=9 http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=48.543&lon=-109.762&zoom=9

71a54xd 4y ago

[flagged]

freitzkriesler2 4y ago

[flagged]

david927 4y ago
I expect it between now and summer.
graphe 4y ago
Why? The draft is gone in the US. It is traditionally isolationist. There will be no Great War despite experts saying so. At worst you’ll see weapons being shipped overseas to fund rebels/terrorism against enemies.
- photonbeam 4y ago
  Isn’t selective service is still in force?
  - graphe 4y ago
    Yes. But at this fitness level and only half of Americans would stay and fight. How many are willing to train, go overseas, fight and not dodge the draft?
    - 65a 4y ago
      I don't think an attack on the US or key partners is comparable to what was seen when a draft was used to support a failing French colony. It'd be pretty dangerous to conflate those outcomes, in my opinion.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Sounds like what the Europeans were saying before Feb’22…
  - philwelch 4y ago
    Or July ‘14….

hoppyhoppy2 4y ago

Update: The airspace has been reopened. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-closes-some-airspace-montana-defense-department-activities-2023-02-12/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-closes-some-airspace...

aaron695 4y ago

[dead]

cirrus3 4y ago

Is this a common occurrence, or just being watched and reported on more actively due to recent events?

TylerLives 4y ago

My prediction seems to be coming true - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34196705 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34196705

doctor_eval 4y ago
“We'll get a message from aliens, but no one will understand what it means.” Unclear how it’s related.
encryptluks2 4y ago
Isn't there some board for out there conspiracies?
0xGod 4y ago
Time for the Rapture soon.

dadadad100 4y ago

These things happen very often and there could be many explanations. Every time the President moves one is declared. There is a permanent one at Beale AFB, CA. And there are permanent ones at Disneyland and Disney World. Any aviation mapping source and many weather apps with aviation data (MyRadar is my choice) shows these come and go.

tus666 4y ago

Is this unusual? Serious qn.

vkou 4y ago
The only truthful answer to this is that the media reporting on it this much is unusual.

leonidasv 4y ago

Apparently, nothing was found at the reported site. The airspace is now open again. https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624595395635474433 https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1624595395635474433 https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1624593417878528001 https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/16245934178785280...

moose_man 4y ago
"NORAD detected a radar anomaly and sent fighter aircraft to investigate. Those aircraft did not identify any object to correlate to the radar hits. NORAD will continue to monitor the situation." Interesting, maybe it was a stealth aircraft? NORAD could probably detect a stealth aircraft like the Serbs did in the 1990s, but getting a precise location would be difficult.
- partiallypro 4y ago
  More likely an anomaly mixed with an already cautious NORAD due to the past week of incidents.
- tempestn 4y ago
  Other articles have reported they've changed how they're filtering radar signals, which could partially explain why more real objects are being found now, but would also result in additional false positives. > The incursions in the past week have changed how analysts receive and interpret information from radars and sensors, a U.S. official said Saturday, partly addressing a key question of why so many objects have recently surfaced. > The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said that sensory equipment absorbs a lot of raw data, and filters are used so humans and machines can make sense of what is collected. But that process always runs the risk of leaving out something important, the official said. > “We basically opened the filters,” the official added https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/02/11/military-shootdown-alaska-flying-object/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/02/11/...
  - nerdponx 4y ago

kqr2 4y ago

Although it might not be related to the Chinese balloon, does the US have the technology to capture it intact vs shooting it down? It seems like they are going through a lot of trouble now to recover the pieces after it was shot down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-air_retrieval https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-air_retrieval

sjs382 4y ago
I'd imagine that there's enough of a possibility of an ability to self-destruct that it may not be worth the risk.
- kqr2 4y ago
  I feel if the balloon was carrying an explosive payload this would definitely be an act of war. Would it be worth it for the Chinese to do that?
  - zxexz 4y ago
    The payload doesn’t have to be explosive to be self destructive. Spy gear and weather gear can be the same hardware, I assume the ROM on the hardware and the data collected would be the real evidence. Some well-placed magnesium strips or maybe even deleting the data as a failsafe would be effective. Wouldn’t surprise me if shooting it down was the least risky idea. It’ll probably be 40 years until we know what the real reasoning is though!
  - _zzaw 4y ago
    It would absolutely be bad, and there would—I hope—be consequences, but if they clearly didn't intend to bomb anything, it would probably not be considered any more of an act of war than if their balloon fell out of the sky and hurt someone.
  - ttyprintk 4y ago
    Could you tell a lithium battery apart from an intentional self-destruct?
4y ago

notdonspaulding 4y ago

They found an object which has now been shot down by a US fighter jet over Canadian territory: https://apnews.com/article/united-states-government-canada-ottawa-93071207f2bbdf93b591d6b40ce1cb5a https://apnews.com/article/united-states-government-canada-o...

redtriumph 4y ago
That's different from the situation noted in linked article. That happened before the airspace was closed.
_zzaw 4y ago
I'm very curious to hear more about this. All we know so far is that it was apparently cylindrical and the size of a small car. I'm wondering if it was a small zeppelin. The shape would be more suitable for piloting, but it could stay aloft longer than a drone; would not surprise me at all if the Chinese were experimenting with those.

_boffin_ 4y ago

If you guys take a look at this from 3 years ago, you'll see that this doesn't seem like an uptick, but rather it seems like it's being publicized a lot more as of recent as well as some good target practice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Midn_UNnj5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Midn_UNnj5I

ultrarunner 4y ago
That seems pretty focused on the border with Russia over Alaska. The incident in Montana seems pretty far inland for that to apply. I'm sure there are organizations testing the waters all the time, though, be that with bombers or balloons.
- _boffin_ 4y ago
  Correct, that video was focused on that area, but remember, there's these all up and down the coastlines

thepasswordis 4y ago

The Montana Governor was briefed at The White House about this tonight https://mobile.twitter.com/GovGianforte/status/1624596970491854850 https://mobile.twitter.com/GovGianforte/status/1624596970491... >I received a briefing tonight at the White House about an object in Montana airspace. I will continue to receive regular updates. >With questions about the Chinese spy balloon still unanswered, the Biden administration must be fully forthcoming with Montanans and all Americans. One of Montana's house reps said: >I am in direct contact with NORCOM and monitoring the latest issue over Havre and the northern border. Airspace is closed due to an object that could interfere with commercial air traffic — the DOD will resume efforts to observe and ground the object in the morning. https://twitter.com/RepRosendale/status/1624579901608034306 https://twitter.com/RepRosendale/status/1624579901608034306 Something is definitely happening. We shot down an object over Alaska yesterday, and then again today we shot down yet another object over Canada. That's three objects shot down in about a week, whereas the last time we shot anything down over US airspace was arguably during WW2.

whamlastxmas 4y ago
[flagged]
golemotron 4y ago
Did the Governor of Montana just happen to be in DC or was he summoned there?
- thepasswordis 4y ago
  He was in Washington, D.C. for the National Governors Association Winter meetup: https://mobile.twitter.com/NatlGovsAssoc/status/1624473506158112771 https://mobile.twitter.com/NatlGovsAssoc/status/162447350615...
- nradov 4y ago
  Technically the federal government has no legal authority to "summon" state governors. All they can do is request and invite.
- 4y ago

hnczwml 4y ago

It's funny. Meteorological departments in so many countries around the world release balloons every day. Why is it aimed at China? Are Chinese balloons different?

99_00 4y ago

Send 100 over china for each one they send here. Problem will be solved quick.

georgeg23 4y ago
We'd probably buy our 100 on Alibaba
- TrueSlacker0 4y ago
  With next day air shipping

giardini 4y ago

Did the Chinese "weather balloon" seed or drop some objects/material while passing over the USA?

judge2020 4y ago
Looks like they're monitoring it before recovery: > A second U.S official also told ABC News that while the main reconnaissance section of the balloon has been found, recovery operations have been suspended until Monday because of rough waters. The official said the rough weather was outside the window under which Navy divers could safely conduct operations. > Because of harsh conditions, measures have been taken to ensure that the debris underwater doesn't move with the currents. Among those measures, the official said, was the addition of weights and acoustic-pinging devices so they can be easily located once operations resume. > The USS Carter Hall has returned to shore with the balloon remnants recovered so far and a contracted crane ship has arrived at the location offshore and will remain there until salvage operations resume. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-believes-chinese-surveillance-balloon-payload-located-official/story?id=97033113 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-believes-chinese-surveill...
cycrutchfield 4y ago
[flagged]

nszceta 4y ago

What if this balloon is carrying a small yield nuclear payload or dirty bomb?

ipnon 4y ago
This doesn’t make game theoretic sense. There is a ladder of escalation but nuclear surprise attacks are at the end. A single surprise nuclear strike makes little sense because it would preempt an immediate counterforce strike. In that case it makes more sense to just do a full counterforce strike yourself. Let me be clear it doesn’t make sense for USA or PRC to use nuclear weapons at this time. There’s simply no need to escalate all the way.
- nszceta 4y ago
  It does make sense to completely cripple critical infrastructure initially with plausible deniability. Combine this with the Ohio derailment and the uncaught substation snipers which knew an awful lot about what equipment to take out. Derailment is a powerful sabotage tool. Americans were caught attempting it in Russia years ago. https://tass.com/politics/1313063 https://tass.com/politics/1313063 They are trying to weaken infrastructure by making taxpayers bleed time, money, and effort.
  - ianburrell 4y ago
    A nuke isn’t plausible deniability. They, and the balloon, can be tracked back to source. Someone in another post was worried about balloons dropping bombs. Guided glide bomb would be pretty effective. But the balloon isn’t stealth. As we’re seeing, even small objects can be tracked by radar. Also, bombs are heavy and that means a large balloon. Something the size of the ground visible spy balloon. Infrastructure is more resilient than you think. I doubt there is a spot where a single bomb could cripple things. If there was, a ground bomb would be effective and easier.
    - nszceta 4y ago
      > can be tracked back to source Not sure I believe that it can be done beyond a reasonable doubt. I still don't see what evidence there is that these things are Chinese. It's probably speculation and nothing more. It might still be true, but the attribution is likely highly speculative.

petodo 4y ago

I like how we have here at least 5 posts within few hours about smokescr... sorry unidentified flying objects, yet I don't see a single post about Ohio train explosion with giant cloud of polyvinyl chloride and a ton of other bad chemicals and there is media blackout about it https://twitter.com/falconryfinance/status/1624087503786631168 https://twitter.com/falconryfinance/status/16240875037866311...

tgv 4y ago
So, first you throw in some conspiracy stuff, and then appeal to some sense of injustice by adding some unrelated incident, as if that proves anything? The latter is widely reported, and probably not of the HN's crowd's interest.

amrb 4y ago

I remember this anime Jormungand in which they used an EMP for the purpose of disabling all flights & satellites, that forces the world to be fully dependent on sea shipping (far fetched but was the story). On the flight point, I'd find it disappointing if nations uses a cheaper version trolling airspace with balloons.

zeristor 4y ago

Are the balloons red? Maybe we’ll get to the 99th in a month or so at this rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Luftballons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99_Luftballons

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

detrites 4y ago

Now China has announced they're shooting one down: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1624734766057803776 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/16247347660578037... (Separate post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34762443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34762443 )

dmix 4y ago
This would be a useful information operation to push the "UFO" angle being pushed on social media. Rather than the NATO countries broadening their radar search to look for smaller objects, generating plenty of false positives and detection of things they missed before.

klqprt 4y ago

[flagged]

kranke155 4y ago
Any comercial airline or military pilot that’s flown long term will have a UFO story, from his own experience or someone told him. Has been the case for ages. I have a relative who was a pilot and he would always tell me UFO stories from other people.