10 ms·
This engineer will have nasty shock when he meets European economic area warranty laws. He claims: “ WARRANTY? RETURNS? 30-day warranty from the moment you rece
by lnsru 4y ago
This engineer will have nasty shock when he meets European economic area warranty laws. He claims: “ WARRANTY? RETURNS?
30-day warranty from the moment you receive the part. I am not responsible if you break something while installing the part.
No returns”
He must provide 2 years warranty selling to regular consumers. That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. That’s why every 20€ BOM gadget has a retail price of 99€.
- ChrisRR 4y ago> That’s why every 20€ BOM gadget has a retail price of 99€. That's more to do with economies of scale and how larger companies can absorb R&D costs.
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago> He must provide 2 years warranty selling to regular consumers. AFAIK, sellers who are individual physical persons are not subject to consumer law regulations for distance selling.
- judge2020 4y agoIs this actively enforced in any way? If I were him, I'd be more worried about selling the pre-modified Pro. Especially if it's being shipped internationally, there's a fair chance Apple asks U.S. customs to seize these de-facto knockoffs. And calling it 41rP0d$ / M4g$4f3 isn't going to get past anyone. https://shop.kenp.io/products/pods-pro-new-and-modded https://shop.kenp.io/products/pods-pro-new-and-modded
- sitic 4y agoIsn't this basically the same as selling hacked and refilled printer ink cartridges? The Supreme Court ruled against Lexmark in that case (as far as the patents are concerned, not sure if Lexmark also tried the trademark route). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impression_Prods.,_Inc._v._Lexmark_Int%27l,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impression_Prods.,_Inc._v._Lex....
- manigandham 4y agoThey would be knockoffs if they claimed to be exactly the same as the original. What's illegal about buying modified items?
- watwut 4y agoYes, you can complain and it is enforced. But, it was not big companies conspiracy against the small ones. That part is just alternative/imaginary history based on OPs ideological outlook.
- Dylan16807 4y agoI doubt very many are going to break between 30 days and 2 years. If a 2 year warranty inflates your prices like that, you're doing something very wrong.
- midoridensha 4y agoI agree, but the thing about having to honor the warranty even in the case of consumer misuse would inflate prices. (I don't know if EU warranty law actually works like that, I'm just going off the previous comment.)
- ajsnigrutin 4y agoNope, if you can prove it was due to customer misuse you don't have to cover it. So a eg. broken screen is still a customers problem, unless they somehow manage to prove in court that the screens were shitty and break under what would be presumed "normal use". That's why there are basically no ads showing stuff like "survives falls from 10 meters high" here.
- messe 4y agoIt doesn't.
- danielheath 4y agoHaving a two-year liability on the books makes it much harder to get a loan.
- deely3 4y agoThats the point. Do not get loan for some junk, no?
- danielheath 4y agoI mean as a company trying to raise finance to expand after selling widgets for a year - banks consider the risk that the first year of sales could be returned, bankrupting the company, and charge far higher rates.
- exabrial 4y agoEasy solution is to just exclude the EU, if he even cared
- whatever1 4y agoIf your junk cannot not even last 1.5 years then it’s better to not waste our resources on it
- drusepth 4y agoThere's a big difference between tech being able to last 1.5 years and being guaranteed to last 1.5 years. The latter costs more upfront to smaller players, even if the quality of the tech is otherwise identical.
- deely3 4y agoBut thats exactly the point of this law? No matter - big player, small player - don't sell the junk that will break in a few month.
- wongarsu 4y agoThey only have to last that long under intended use, which is why manuals go into some lengths to tell you how you're supposed to use it (don't use the blender when wet, only use it a couple minutes at a time, etc). And if you engineer your product to last 2.5 years under those conditions, only a small fraction will break before the 2 year threshold, and of those only a small fraction of those will lead to actual warranty claims (unless it happens early in the product's life)
- mahkeiro 4y agoThis guy is not in the EU or even selling with a EU presence. If you as a EU customer buy it you will be responsible to import it in the EU.
- ajsnigrutin 4y agoYep, if you order it from outside EU, it's only covered under the law of that specific country where he resides (if there is such a law in place). But if you (eg. a store owner) order it from him and resell it to end users, you're responsible for the goods sold.
- brirec 4y agoYou sure about that? His site says Switzerland, and I’m pretty sure _they_ didn’t vote leave
- mattclarkdotnet 4y agoThey can’t leave because they never joined?
- vore 4y agoSwitzerland is not and has never been in the EU.
- Xylakant 4y agoSwitzerland is complicated. They are not in the EU, but closely aligned and essentially bound to many of the EU rules and regulations via agreements. Whether that applies for warranty or not is not something I know, but it’s definitely possible.
- yywwbbn 4y agoIn practice they are at economically if not politically. They are in the free trade area so most EU regulations regarding goods apply there
- 4y ago
- rtpg 4y ago> That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. That’s why every 20€ BOM gadget has a retail price of 99€. I dunno, "2 year warranty kills our business model" sounds a lot like "we are selling gadgets to go directly to a landfill". I imagine the bigger thing is on a macro level there's just less free money floating around in Europe to fund things with terrible unit economics. 2 years is of course a very long time, but you combine that with how many people would actually take advantage of that and... well, the defect rate, and I feel like you can make that work. EDIT: And to be even more glib, if your thing costs 20 euros to make, make 1 for the "warranty stockpile" for every 1 that goes out to customers. Warranty claim? Send out from the warranty stockpile.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago> 2 years is of course a very long time How is 2 years a very long time for an electronic device? Most larger electronics (washing machines, dishwashers, fridges,...) have a 5 year warranty by default here, also many cars do.
- zwily 4y agoFirst you criticize that units will fill landfills, then you suggest they make 2 units for every 1 purchased?
- mschuster91 4y agoAlternatively, you can design your units to be easily repairable so you can stockpile spare parts, and do proper testing to reduce the amount of products that fail in the first place. The problem is that virtually anonymous sellers and dropshippers on Alibaba and Amazon can and will undercut the pricing that is required to support that kind of infrastructure and development - and I'm not sure what the correct way is to prevent that, while still allowing start-ups and small shops to sell stuff in the EU. Maybe an idea would be to make exemptions for small scale runs - think of something like a combination of: - below 1000 units sold in total for a company over all its lineup - at least the development work of the product must be domestic in origin (i.e. the company must be domiciled in the EU and at least 50% of the development work must be done by that company - that leaves startups free to hire overseas talent, but prohibits dropshipping China crap or production of pre-existing designs) - handling warranty claims must be done in the EU, with a requirement of "repair first" to incentivize feedback into product development.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- jjallen 4y agoIs this really how big players killed hardware startups in Europe? Sincerely asking because I live in Europe now and don't know the background. I always wonder how much this causes EU electronics prices to be higher than the States.
- vinay427 4y agoMost of that price difference tends to be the higher (and included in the price) national VAT compared to US state/local sales taxes which aren’t typically included.
- jjallen 4y agoYup but not Switzerland, where the VAT is 7.7%. Prices are still higher there. Something like 10-20% for Apple products, which I mention because this article is about Apple products.
- vinay427 4y agoYes, I used to live in Switzerland so I'm aware but I seem to have interpreted your use of "EU" too literally. :)
- Swenrekcah 4y agoPrices also reflect people’s purchasing power which is rather high in Switzerland.
- ajsnigrutin 4y agoYep, also wages are higher there so there is a higher cost of running stores there. This is especially visible in stuff requiring manual work (eg. premade sandwiches in a store). On the other hand, everyone I know from switzerland goes (usually) to germany to shop there, and our balkan "gastarbaiters" go home, and do "everything" here (dentist, haircuts,...).
- 4y ago
- sschueller 4y ago"That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe" The big players fought this law tooth and nail because they didn't want to guarantee their devices for that long. They definitely did not want this and did not use this an opportunity to "kill hardware startups in Europe". In fact Apple initially refused to offer the 2 year warranty[1] [1] https://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehmen/fauler-apfel-apple-verweigert-gesetzliche-gratis-garantie https://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehmen/fauler-apfel-apple...
- yellow_postit 4y agoLike GDPR if can be the case that big players don’t want a regulation to pass and if it does pass it still disproportionately hurts smaller companies with less payroll.
- watwut 4y agoBut that claim should be based on more then ideological commitment to "if it is regulation it must hurt small business and be conspiracy of big ones".
- saiya-jin 4y agoAnything that hurts small players more than big players is cheered by those big players, we have seen this countless times with any big tech company. Heck, they even actively push for it, with 'think of the children' for simpler audience
- rickdeckard 4y agoFun fact: Apple still doesn't provide two years of warranty in the EU, unless you PAY for it via an Apple Care extension. EDIT: Weird how this gets downvoted. Let me quote for example from Apple Germany's webpage [1]: "The limited Apple warranty covers your iPhone for 1 year from the date of purchase against faults due to the design and manufacturing of the product [..] Depending on the problem you might be covered via AppleCare+" [1] https://support.apple.com/de-de/iphone/repair https://support.apple.com/de-de/iphone/repair
- hnlmorg 4y agoThere are loads of independent folk selling stuff like this in the EU just fine. In fact the modding community in the EU is massive. The reason they’re fine is because this is a really niche audience who generally know what they’re doing. The few occasions things do go wrong, it’s almost always the fault of the person the bought it, and we accept that. Those that do want something like this and who isn’t a hacker themselves would go via a 3rd party to mod it, usually paying them too (That scene is also massive in the EU). The very few times I’ve had to return something has been simple enough. Full refund for an item that is either dead on arrival or they person just sent out the wrong item accidentally. Either way, we are talking same week rather than 2 years later.
- thatguy27 4y agoDo you perhaps have a few pointers to discover the modding communities here? I am only aware of the mechanical keyboard community. (I'm in the Netherlands.)
- hnlmorg 4y agoThey’re often desperate communities based around specific hardware. Like the Amstrad CPC, BBC Micro, Atari ST or other retro computers. Plenty in retro consoles too. I’ve not found a single forum where people lurk but rather independent message boards. I believe there’s a few Facebook Groups, possibly Redit too, but I don’t personally use Facebook nor Redit. You generally find them when looking to do something interesting on a specific device. However if anyone knows of a more centralised place then I’d be interest to know too.
- Eisenstein 4y agoThis might be obvious but there are a lot of Europeans on tindie. You might want to reach out to some of them that make things you find interesting.
- gambiting 4y ago>>He must provide 2 years warranty selling to regular consumers. It's a myth that dominates the internet on some reason. There is no such EU-wide law, never was(although some individual member states do mandate that). The EU law that does exist is that the seller is responsible for the item they sold, for electronics item the period of time is actually 6 years, but the seller must cover manufacturing defects. But here's the kicker - in case of a fault appearing within the first 6 months, it's presumed to be a manufacturing defect and the seller has to replace/repair the item, but any fault after 6 months you(the buyer) has to prove that the fault happened due to a manufacturing defect. If your laptop randomly dies after a year the seller is not under any legal obligation to fix it, unless you can prove it died because of a manufacturing problem. So no, there is no 2 year warranty in EU the way many people expect the warranty to work. There isn't, and what is there is not the same as a warranty.
- rickdeckard 4y agoupvoted, but the consumer product guarantee is 2 years [1] (not 6 years. You may refer to the guarantee of offering (paid) repair, which is 7 years for a while now). And when the consumer product guarantee was extended from 1 year to 2 years, the reversal of the burden of proof moved from 6 months to 1 year. So for the first year the trader has to prove that the fault didn't exist at the time of delivery, which he fowards to the manufacturer who solves it by simply repairing the product based on the warranty he provides. After the first year, the burden of proof moves to the buyer, now he has to prove to the trader that the fault already existed at purchase. If the manufacturer provides 2 years of warranty nothing changes compared to above, but if he doesn't you'll be left discussing with the trader (from experience: good luck!) [1]: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-guarantees/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gambiting 4y agoHuh, I swear it was only 6 months until relatively recently, but you're right - now the presumption of manufacturing defect is in fact 12 months. Thank you! Another link that also says the same thing: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...
- rickdeckard 4y agoSorry, that is not correct. EU law defines that the consumer is given a minimum 2-year guarantee as a protection against faulty goods, or goods that don't look or work as advertised when buying a product from a trader in the EU (incl. Norway and Iceland). The application of this is a bit more complex, as the definition of a "faulty good" is a product that failed due to flaw in its design ("defects presumed to have existed at the time of delivery"), and after the first year YOU as the consumer have to prove that this fault existed when the goods were delivered. Moreover, legally this guarantee has to be given by the *trader* selling the product to you, not even the manufacturer of the prouct. If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law. But in this case it's all irrelevant because the item sold is basically a spare-part, not a consumer end-product. For spare-parts and components that legal guarantee for consumers doesn't apply.
- TheNorthman 4y ago> and after the first year YOU as the consumer have to prove that this fault existed when the goods were delivered. You have to make it probable, which is very different from proving. A rule favoring consumers, something like "there isn't an excess of scratches" is sufficient in most cases, where the alternative would require an excessive cost in further analysis (read: all electronics). > If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law. The seller is advertising _and_ shipping his product to the EU, therefor he is bound by its laws. He even features specific advise to EU consumers. > But in this case it's all irrelevant because the item sold is basically a spare-part This is just nonsense. It's sold direct to consumers, it's a consumer product.
- dec0dedab0de 4y ago> If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law. The seller is advertising _and_ shipping his product to the EU, therefor he is bound by its laws. He even features specific advise to EU consumers. This is interesting, and I think is similar to the GDPR. Do you think he could get extradited for not following EU law, assuming he is being compliant with the laws of his own country? I would think that any punishment would be limited to if he enters the EU, or has assets there. Or perhaps blocking his website, or any shipments from him. Is there anyone around with actual experience in these kinds of laws?
- heeen2 4y agoI think the WEEE law is actually what is providing friction to small batch commercial electrnics projects. https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/WEEE-Anmeldung https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/WEEE-Anmeldung e.g. there is a lottery for all electronics goods traders where if you get drawn you have to pay for a dumpster for recycling which can net you bills up to 10k€
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago> That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. That sounds like something the big players want you to believe because they're butthurt about being made to produce decent quality products instead of landfill. And there's still a lot of landfill being sold in Europe; legally they're required to honor warranty requests, but in practice this shit is so cheap that the store front just gives people a replacement device or a refund (in store credit); the products get bundled up and either just discarded outright or returned to the supplier / importer, where I guess some money trades hands. But there will be no attempts at repair, it's just not worth it.
- brmgb 4y ago> That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. Sorry but if your quality process doesn't allow you to guarantee that what you sell will still work in a measly two years, you have no business selling it the first place.