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> The current macroeconomic environment is tough No, it isn't, and it's embarrassing at this point to continue insisting this. The macroeconomic environment is

> The current macroeconomic environment is tough No, it isn't, and it's embarrassing at this point to continue insisting this. The macroeconomic environment is good, particularly in the United States. Business investment is growing at 3% a quarter (annualized), which is better than the average over the past decade. Employment is growing rapidly. Inflation has been tame over the past six months. And wages are growing steadily, but not rapidly in a wage-inflation spiral. In the US, the stock market is down about 10% over the past 12 months, but it's up over the past six months, and corporate earnings have been high. Everywhere you look, the economic indicators are solid. I do not have insight into Gitlab's customers, or the current state of Gitlab's business. But it is simply not true that the macroeconomic environment is tough. It is not. If there are problems, they are Gitlab problems, not macroeconomic problems.

ozim 4y ago
I saw that in one place I was working - macroeconomic environment was always tough for them. Like 2014-2016 was not global depression and it was long past 2008 but somehow they were still in depression.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
The current macroeconomic environment is tough if you have deeply negative cash-flow (most of tech).
- napsec 4y ago
  Yup, this is it for GitLab. They've never been profitable. I'm honestly surprised they went this long without layoffs.
- jeltz 4y ago
  And it is no wonder they have issues when their customer support is hostile. I used to pay for Gitlab but switched to the community edition after having to deal with their support over billing issues. Easier to use the free version than the paid version. Making money does not seem to be a priority.
  - DavidPP 4y ago
    Same here situation here (went from paid to free for a similar reason). We are a small team, so we don't represent a lot of $, but it's changed how I perceive Gitlab as a company, and it also means I won't recommend them anymore to clients.
mberning 4y ago
Record high credit card balances, record low personal savings, 40 year high inflation, rising interest rates and no sign of the fed stopping. Housing affordability at its lowest point since the real estate bubble and crash of 07/08. You are on some very good copium if you believe the economy is in good shape.
- noelsusman 4y ago
  The economy is humming along just fine despite all of that.
  - mberning 4y ago
    Many people feel fine right up until the point they get diagnosed with a terminal illness. The point being, this would be like going to the doctor and having high blood pressure, high cholesterol, high blood sugar, etc. etc. The patient can be up, walking around, feeling OK, but in reality they are headed for a nightmare.
    - noelsusman 4y ago
      So we agree we're not in an economic downturn then.
    - mplewis 4y ago
      The economy is not a human body.
      - charcircuit 4y ago
        It's an analogy
        zopa 4y ago
        A bad one. What's the insight here? If a body were a nation-state, it'd be a totalitarian hellscape where life is cheap, individuals exist only to support the collective and some populations are invaders to be exterminated.
synergy20 4y ago
IT industry has benefited the most from COVID along with drug companies, due to that, many if not all of them over hired by like 20% or much more, that's the main reason they're cutting ~10% across the board now when COVID goes away, it's a normal business boom and bust cycle decision to me. Even though the macro economy are not bad or just fine, that still can't justify the crazy hiring those companies did in the last 3 years, thus the lay-offs. On top of that, we have been in booming cycle since 2008, which is a long stretch, some adjustment is due.
Aperocky 4y ago
All of that looks good but the current rate is at 4.5% with expectation to continue to rise. That is the true underpinning of the economy right there. If everything else remained the same but rate is at 2% steady there is probably going to be a hiring crunch like we had in 2021.
robertlagrant 4y ago
> Business investment is growing at 3% a quarter (annualized) That's surprising given money is reportedly much less cheap now. Any citations?
gregors 4y ago
Disney is laying off 7k workers... >>> “While this is necessary to address the challenges we’re >>> facing today, I do not make this decision lightly,” said >>> CEO Bob Iger, " From the same article >>> ...the company released better than expected financial >>> results for the fourth quarter of 2022. Disney revenue in >>> the quarter rose 8% to $23.5 billion, edging past >>> estimates of $23.4 billion Truly they are facing major challenges /s https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/08/business/disney-earnings/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/08/business/disney-earnings/inde...
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  Well, for Disney, making up for some of that early pandemic park revenue is certainly a challenge. Nobody messes with Mickey Mouse’s money!
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    Disney has already raised prices at their parks twice this year though: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/disney-raises-ticket-prices/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/disney-raises-ticket-pric...
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Disney is laying off people because their movies keep bombing in the theaters. All they do is remakes and spinoffs of the famous old IPs they devoured, but that gravy train is coming to a stop. After a while people get tired of watching more half-baked Star Wars and Marvel sequels of bootleg quality. They're running out of franchises to milk, and making something new and original is not in their corporate culture.
  - bentlegen 4y ago
    I’m guessing you didn’t read the article because Avatar made in over 2 billion dollars, exceeding even their expectations, becoming the 6th highest grossing film of all time. Or maybe it bombed, beats me.
tablespoon 4y ago
> No, it isn't, and it's embarrassing at this point to continue insisting this. Yeah, it feels the most charitable interpretation for the companies that say that is their CEO read doom-and-gloom predictions last fall, and hasn't opened a newspaper since. My employer just put out good numbers for 2022 and what look like positive growth predictions 2023 -- they're not laying anyone off, but they're cutting budgets and letting go of contractors (mostly very good ones), which will really hurt our ability to deliver and maybe even negatively impact stability. I've heard that meeting the budget is the priority, even if the actions needed to do that are illogical. It makes no sense.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
sethd 4y ago
Unprofitable tech companies are probably not doing too great in the face of rising interest rates.
grey-area 4y ago
The cost of money went up dramatically last year, and businesses which relied on very cheap (almost free) money for the last decade now need to make a profit or die. They are therefore panicking about the near future (and rightly so), this is what they mean by 'The current macroeconomic environment is tough'.
jayd16 4y ago
As layoffs echo through tech and belts are tightened, rightfully so or not, don't you think that would effect a SAAS like gitlab?
prepend 4y ago
> Inflation has been tame over the past six months. No, I don’t think so. 6.5% [0] is still an absurdly high rate compared to the past 30 years. It is nowhere near tame and may still fluctuate quite a bit. [0] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi
- jlmorton 4y ago
  That is the trailing twelve months rate, and inflation was very high in the first six months of the trailing twelve months. Core inflation actually fell last month [1], and the producer price index has been very low the past several months [2] [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/core-pce-price-index-mom https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/core-pce-price-in... [2] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/core-producer-prices-mom https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/core-producer-pri...
- idontpost 4y ago
  [dead]
- sekai 4y ago
  It's been trending down for the past 6 months, and markets are always future focused. Inflation is non-issue anymore
  - prepend 4y ago
    Trending down, but still high and high for the foreseeable future. It’s not a non-issue to people trying to buy things.
mywittyname 4y ago
> If there are problems, they are Gitlab problems, not macroeconomic problems. Agreed. But pretty much every business is taking a hard look at their SaaS spend and are making cuts where possible.
- mmmm2 4y ago
  It seems it's better to be a SaaS provider than a SaaS user. I'm curious how the pendulum will swing as this all plays out.
  - red-iron-pine 4y ago
    SaaS is like the offshoring crazy of the 90s and 2000s. Not as great as people seem to think but they're too invested to walk away.
    - coffeebeqn 4y ago
      I mean it’s just taking the old business model - pay me $500 for a piece of software - and stretching it to - Pay me $20/mo until The end of times. The bean counters love it because it looks like you have an infinite revenue stream
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
This feels like another semantic argument, this time over what "macroeconomic environment is tough" means. You are correct in everything you say in your first paragraph. That said, it's fair to say that "sharply rising interest rates" are also part of the macroeconomic environment. You can say that it was silly for all these tech companies and investors to think the free money spigot would go on for so long, but the key driver for all of the fall in tech company valuations and employment levels is rising interest rates. > If there are problems, they are Gitlab problems, not macroeconomic problems. Yet literally every big tech company I can think of has had similar levels of layoffs. If these were Gitlab-specific problems you wouldn't expect the slowdowns and layoffs to hit everyone.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  It isn't every big company. Apple hasn't, and they're the biggest of all. I think that is the point: it does not feel accurate to say that "macroeconomic conditions are tough" or that you expect slowdowns while recording record levels of revenue, and yet company after company after company is using these imaginary tough headwinds to justify laying off 6-8% of staff, often while paying dividends or issuing stock buy-backs. If it really is rising interest rates, then be honest. Say "due to rising interest rates, we are going to lay off 7% of staff... while buying back stock using our record profits."
  - deburo 4y ago
    To me, complaining about the reasoning used by companies while not currently at the head of such a company feels pretty darn foolish. You just don't have the numbers at hands to qualify what they are saying. And I don't understand why you would care about layoffs from the tech industry (of all people) anyway, it's one of the best industry today and will probably for a while still (forever?). Maybe one of those engineers can help his local tech shop instead.
    - adamsmith143 4y ago
      Pretty bad argument when we in fact do have many of the numbers for public companies and those numbers show growing revenue and record profits...
patentatt 4y ago
The macroeconomic problems facing all of these corporations are that labor is feeling empowered, that's it. Between union actions, NLRB actions, wages rising, low unemployment, and the whole return to work debate; power has subtly, slightly shifted towards workers. And it scares the shit out of the capital class. In response, they're culling the herd and raising interest rates to discipline workers.
andsoitis 4y ago
if, as you say, the economy is super strong and employment opportunities are robust, then nobody should worry about the layoffs because hey, you’ll find a new gig easily!
- hirako2000 4y ago
  Many people have been at a place for a while, some over a decade. Massive layoffs means quick and picking individuals who rarely demonstrated poor performance. What it means to someone being laid off is far more than the challenges in finding another place. Plenty of fish and a rich dating scene out there. If you are dumped for dubious reason, would the argument that it isn't a problem at all to find someone else stand to not touch on the reasons? Plus given the power dynamic at play, don't you think the debate should go on with the reasons for what almost look like a centralised decision making power deciding when millions people should be let go despite no correlation with poor individual performance and even business performance in many cases?
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    > millions people should be let go Where did you get the notion that millions of people have been laid off? Not that it is the canonical source of truth, but according layoffs.fyi: - 2023: 100k people laid off at 332 tech companies - 2022: 160k people laid off at 1044 tech companies source: https://layoffs.fyi https://layoffs.fyi
KoftaBob 4y ago
Well said. Almost every CEO that uses this line is essentially trying to avoid saying “we foolishly overhired during 2021 and are correcting for that”. Saying that would mean the CEO is admitting that they made a misguided decision.
ericd 4y ago
Does this look like a solid economic indicator to you? https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_pmi https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_pmi Zoom to max.
mythrwy 4y ago
Well if enough people keep being laid off, perhaps the macroeconomic environment does indeed become tough!
hoelle 4y ago
> Everywhere you look, the economic indicators are solid Everywhere? Have you been down a grocery aisle? The Ukraine war is likely to continue disrupting global food, fertilizer, energy, and raw material supply for years. Boomer retirement is crunching capital. Finding investment will likely only get harder for the next several years. China may be on the verge of a demographic, manufacturing, and political collapse. Stock your pantries.
- Axien 4y ago
  I read Peter Zeihan as well.
deleted 4y ago
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exmicrosoldier 4y ago
> The current macroeconomic environment is tough aka > Interest rates are high and I am worried about getting my next round of funding or meeting minimum payments on corporate debt. Because an overwhelming number of corporations take advantage of tax laws that make interest debt deductible, every interest rate hike leads to firing people and decreasing business investment, just to stay profit margin neutral. If you want to change this, it would really help to change the tax laws. https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/ending-tax-laws-subsidy-for-corporate-debt https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/en...
- jldugger 4y ago
  > Interest rates are high and I am worried about getting my next round of funding or meeting minimum payments on corporate debt. Curiously they IPOed in 2021 and report no debt. Perhaps they intended to borrow and got sidelined by rate hikes?
pokstad 4y ago
The use of the term “macroeconomic” has become so overused and cringe at this point to conceal the true complexity of what is going on.
kortex 4y ago
It's typical paper-thin plausible deniability of corporations justifying actions. - Oil supplies are tough so we are raising gas prices (we know we can get a few weeks/months of crazy profits and blame it on the energy crisis) - Supply chain issues are tough so we have to tighten out belt (excuse to not give out raises/bonuses) - The macroeconomic environment is tough, so we gotta lay off 7-10% (we have wanted to trim the fat for some time and now we have the perfect cover) Funny how it is always slow to go the other way (slow for gas prices to come down, wages to rise, and rosters are expanded).
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  Something strong has to drive it. Hopefully that's economic pressures and not guillotines, but it may come to that.
jupp0r 4y ago
I also wonder where the widespread sentiment is coming from. Everybody had been expecting a recession on the basis of prediction markers like inverted yield curves and because it's historically due. That being said, no actual economic markers are actually pointing at one. Lots of companies are using this and layoffs at other companies as an excuse to cut down their work force, which they (uncommonly) hadn't done for years (which might mean never for young companies). My guess is also that this is more acceptable to share holders because it allows companies to put some money in the bank in case a recession actually arrives. Being transparent about this would be more honest than blaming it on "tough macroeconomic environment". At least severance packages look pretty neat and there's lots of jobs out there still for software people. Hiring is getting a little easier for smaller companies too.
mostertoaster 4y ago
The “good jobs report” is just smoke and mirrors to have something positive to say at the state of the union. Changing how you measure the number of jobs so it looks better is just par for the course for politicians. Using the old measure that 400k over the 100k expected is 20k less than expected.
- lame-robot-hoax 4y ago
  What? When did the Biden administration change the methodology behind measuring unemployment?
  - mostertoaster 4y ago
    Maybe they didn’t. Still smoke and mirrors though, we “gained” 500k jobs, even though payrolls would show a decrease in 2.5m. But it was expected we would lose 3m seasonal jobs. So voila! It’s like when the government says we saved 50 billion in spending this year because we were planning on increasing spending by 150 billion, but only increased it by 100 billion instead. I’m not saying Biden is only one that does this, but the economy sucks, and those think the spin put out at the state union means otherwise, are like those who admire the naked emperors clothes.
    - jlmorton 4y ago
      > But it was expected we would lose 3m seasonal jobs. So voila! This is not smoke and mirrors, it's a seasonal adjustment. Without these seasonal adjustments, the jobs report would be completely and utterly useless. We always lose a massive number of jobs in January after the holidays, each and every year. Removing that seasonal variation from the jobs report is the only thing that produces a useful signal, and it's something we've been doing for your entire life, so there's no difference in the trend. The economy is quite good. Record low unemployment, near-record high job openings, very low long-term unemployed, low part-time for economic reasons, rising wages, modest inflation over the past six months, record-high corporate earnings. There are some areas that are weak, particularly manufacturing, but it's just not even remotely true that the economy sucks.
yowlingcat 4y ago
The world has just moved from a decade plus zero interest rate environment, combined with massive multitrillion dollar pandemic QE and accompanying hyperinflation, into a rising interest rate environment. The macroeconomic environment is more volatile now than any year in recent memory. It is objectively tough, and cherry picking random indicators which aren't core drivers of the economy doesn't prove terribly much. I think you would have to go back to the 70s and 80s to find similar precedent. If you look into the origin of the Volcker rule, you'll see exactly the kind of messiness the world might be in for.
radiator 4y ago
Wow, things really are so rosy on planet jlmorton. But meanwhile on planet earth, and especially the Western hemisphere, real inflation has been going through the roof -- to name only one of the myriad economic problems.
deleted 4y ago
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pacija 4y ago
Terribly bloated corporations all around. We had such situation in socialist Yugoslavia in the 80s, just before it collapsed. Most people just "went to work" without doing anything useful or producing anything valuable while still getting fairly good money. Government kept printing money while increasing foreign debt to keep people content as opposed to let unprofitable companies close so that people get laid off but hopefully regroup into more profitable ones. It lasted for some time, but when it finally came to an end it was really ugly. I feel sorry for everyone that gets laid off, but perhaps that is better than the alternative.
jldugger 4y ago
> Everywhere you look, the economic indicators are solid. Sure, if you cherry pick the indicators. There's a pretty big one you're tiptoeing around: the Fed Funds Rate has gone from 0.25 in 2022 to 4.75. > I do not have insight into Gitlab's customers, or the current state of Gitlab's business. Well, that is to your detriment, both as a persuader and decision maker. Gitlab is publicly traded, and their fiscal year ended Jan 31, so you have a wealth of data you could be consulting to make the case. Yahoo Finance shows[1] they have zero debt, and margins at negative fifty percent -- for every dollar take in they lose a dollar fifty. It's not too hard to imagine the company has been losing money while money was cheap to grow marketshare versus GitHub, but now that rates are up it will be much harder to issue debt and pay it back. It's not to hard to paint Gitlab as a company in transition from loss leader to profitability by cutting costs and reducing long term investments as they become more expensive. And I think describing that as a response to macroenvironment conditions is appropriate. [1]: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GTLB/key-statistics?p=GTLB https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GTLB/key-statistics?p=GTLB
- ryanisnan 4y ago
  Thanks for that. I'm curious if you have any resources you would recommend for improving one's literacy for corporate finance?
  - jldugger 4y ago
    Investopedia? I don't have any advice here, but The Personal MBA[1] is a reading list, and their pick "How to Read a Financial Report: Wringing Vital Signs Out of the Numbers"[2] doesn't sound like the worst. But I haven't read it, so don't mistake this for a personal endorsement. [1]: https://personalmba.com/best-business-books/ https://personalmba.com/best-business-books/ [2]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1118735846/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/1118735846/
- SantalBlush 4y ago
  >Sure, if you cherry pick the indicators. There's a pretty big one you're tiptoeing around: the Fed Funds Rate has gone from 0.25 in 2022 to 4.75 Talk about cherry picking indicators—the federal funds rate isn't even an indicator. If you sincerely want to look at the data without cherry picking, please look at the top 10 US macro indicators [0]. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/020215/top-ten-us-economic-indicators.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/02021...
Patrol8394 4y ago
Current layoffs are not due to macroeconomics, but more a normalization of what happened in the last couple of yers. Most of the companies laying-off they all over hired. Why don't they just say so. https://www.statista.com/statistics/273951/growth-of-the-global-gross-domestic-product-gdp/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/273951/growth-of-the-glo...
vkou 4y ago
The economic indicators are solid, which is why JPowell is promising that the Fed will keep pushing on the money rope until they stop being solid. Why do you think the Fed just raised interest rates again?
mbesto 4y ago
> No, it isn't, and it's embarrassing at this point to continue insisting this. Your macro is not the macro that Gitlab is referring to. It's disingenuous to interpret it otherwise. All of these tech companies "overhired" (in hindsight) because they achieved unprecedented growth 2021~2022. If you're Gitlab - who sells to software development organizations - and the whole market has thrown hand over fist into the software development organizations, you have no choice but to chase that market. If that market (this is GitLab's macro) cools then you simply cut back. Y'all think there is something nefarious going on and I don't get it.
- jlmorton 4y ago
  Let's be clear about what the macroeconomic environment is, because it has a specific meaning. I'll quote from another definition here, so I'm not merely offering my own interpretation: > A macro environment refers to the set of conditions that exist in the economy as a whole, rather than in a particular sector or region. In general, the macro environment includes trends in the gross domestic product (GDP), inflation, employment, spending, and monetary and fiscal policy. The macro-environment is closely linked to the general business cycle as opposed to the performance of an individual business sector. [1] If Gitlab had simply said what you said, then I wouldn't have commented at all. Instead, Gitlab explicitly blamed economy-wide conditions for these layoffs, and that is what I take issue with. The economy is doing well. It's not all rosy, but in general, most indicators are fair-to-good, and trending better. (Manufacturing is one area that continues to trend worse). And frankly, my comment was not directed merely at Gitlab, but rather the slew of layoff notices we've seen that appear to be copied and pasted from each other. It's comical at this point, and the idea that the broad economy is in bad shape is simply not true, and not supported by the evidence. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/macro-environment.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/macro-environment.asp
  - mbesto 4y ago
    > Instead, Gitlab explicitly blamed economy-wide conditions for these layoffs, and that is what I take issue with. The economy is doing well. And a macro-environment doesn't refer to just the economy. Per wikipedia: "The macro-environment refers to all forces that are part of the larger society and affect the micro-environment. It includes concepts such as demography, economy, natural forces, technology, politics, and culture."[0] Btw, if you really want to get pedantic, you specifically used macroeconomic and macro-environment interchangeably, which also have two specific but interrelated meanings. Gitlab used the word macroeconomic. Which sort of tells me all I need to know about how you and other people really understand Gitlab's message, which is exactly what I was referring to - the macro "view" is that people aren't spending like they used to on technology. Look at every publicly traded tech companies and you'll see that. Combine this with political factors (inflation at recent historic highs) and the macro "view" or whatever term you want to use seems dim compared to what it was in 2021/2022. > And frankly, my comment was not directed merely at Gitlab, but rather the slew of layoff notices we've seen that appear That was obvious, and so was mine. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_environment
wellanyway 4y ago
Its almost like senior management consists of people that mostly copy whatever everyone else in their ivy league fraternity is doing.
tempsy 4y ago
This is a pretty silly take. So all these tech companies who've laid people off are wrong and it's company specific issues? Don't think so.
dangwhy 4y ago
> Inflation has been tame over the past six months. > but not rapidly in a wage-inflation spiral. inflation doesn't feel Tame for my extended family.
riskneutral 4y ago
There is a great deal of uncertainty in the current economic environment. There was a pandemic, permanent shifts in the ways people live/work/travel, massive geopolitical events involving multiple, full spectrum global superpower conflicts, huge Ponzi schemes rising up and then collapsing in spectacular fashion (crypto), stagnating productivity (exacerbated by work from home), government bailouts followed by inflation hitting multi-decade highs and central banks mistaking raging inflation for something "transitory" and acting too late, and now skyrocketing interest rates, ongoing labor and supply chain issues, a looming recession and open questions about the ability of central banks to engineer a "soft landing" for the economy. Investment, M&A and corporate spending activity has come to a near standstill in the past 6 months across multiple industries, as a result of the current economic uncertainty. Business loan default rates are expected to rise, there have already been increasing numbers of bankruptcies (e.g. Serta Mattresses, near default Bed Bath and Beyond, health care providers, etc). Not to mention the cascading bankruptcies of crypto schemes. The ramifications of permanent WFH have yet to cascade through the Commercial Real Estate sector - there are huge amounts of vacant office capacity that have yet to be written down, but we can expect to see sales of obsolete and aging office buildings at deep discounts. High interest rates also have an impact on the Residential Real Estate sector, with housing pricing declining, mortgage rates increasing, etc. So 5-7% layoff is prudent for any large corporation in this economic environment, and layoffs / cost cuts have happened and will happen in many different industries, not just tech.
abawany 4y ago
I imagine the saying 'be the change you want to see in the world' pervades the c-suite pretty thoroughly. Thus, if 'the current macroeconomic environment is tough' is not true now, with all these layoffs it'll likely be true soon enough with all of these layoffs and the resulting cascading copycatting.
JibberMeTimbers 4y ago
Almost. The rate of inflation has been tamed. Inflation overall is high still comparatively
- coffeebeqn 4y ago
  I do wonder which goods will never come down from the newly anchored prices
setgree 4y ago
For a company like GitLab, the widespread perception that macro conditions are bad is equivalent to their actually being bad. The email says that clients are holding off on big software purchases, and that's GitLab's bread and butter. I see no reason to disbelieve Sid on this. In general this is one of those weird things about the economy, that perception/expectations dictate a lot of terms. It gives me the heebie jeebies sometimes. If enough people suddenly stopped believing that stocks represented real value, we'd be in a lot of trouble.
bogomipz 4y ago
Indeed. In fact 10 days ago the IMF upgraded their outlook for the global economy in 2023.[1] These layoffs and their accompanying statements from the CEO talking about "challenging macroeconomic environments" are really starting to feel like CEOs just parroting each other. [1] https://time.com/6251381/imf-global-economy-outlook-2023/ https://time.com/6251381/imf-global-economy-outlook-2023/
slowmovintarget 4y ago
Tech went bananas hiring during the pandemic, and are only suddenly discovering that this may have been a bad idea. You know who didn't? Apple. You know hasn't announced a hand-wringing, gosh-golly, tough times, BS announcement about layoffs? Apple. Got to hand it to Tim Cook, he seems to have stayed level-headed through the nonsense.

ozim 4y ago

I saw that in one place I was working - macroeconomic environment was always tough for them. Like 2014-2016 was not global depression and it was long past 2008 but somehow they were still in depression.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

The current macroeconomic environment is tough if you have deeply negative cash-flow (most of tech).

napsec 4y ago
Yup, this is it for GitLab. They've never been profitable. I'm honestly surprised they went this long without layoffs.
jeltz 4y ago
And it is no wonder they have issues when their customer support is hostile. I used to pay for Gitlab but switched to the community edition after having to deal with their support over billing issues. Easier to use the free version than the paid version. Making money does not seem to be a priority.
- DavidPP 4y ago
  Same here situation here (went from paid to free for a similar reason). We are a small team, so we don't represent a lot of $, but it's changed how I perceive Gitlab as a company, and it also means I won't recommend them anymore to clients.

mberning 4y ago

Record high credit card balances, record low personal savings, 40 year high inflation, rising interest rates and no sign of the fed stopping. Housing affordability at its lowest point since the real estate bubble and crash of 07/08. You are on some very good copium if you believe the economy is in good shape.

noelsusman 4y ago
The economy is humming along just fine despite all of that.
- mberning 4y ago
  Many people feel fine right up until the point they get diagnosed with a terminal illness. The point being, this would be like going to the doctor and having high blood pressure, high cholesterol, high blood sugar, etc. etc. The patient can be up, walking around, feeling OK, but in reality they are headed for a nightmare.
  - noelsusman 4y ago
    So we agree we're not in an economic downturn then.
  - mplewis 4y ago
    The economy is not a human body.
    - charcircuit 4y ago
      It's an analogy
      - zopa 4y ago
        A bad one. What's the insight here? If a body were a nation-state, it'd be a totalitarian hellscape where life is cheap, individuals exist only to support the collective and some populations are invaders to be exterminated.

synergy20 4y ago

IT industry has benefited the most from COVID along with drug companies, due to that, many if not all of them over hired by like 20% or much more, that's the main reason they're cutting ~10% across the board now when COVID goes away, it's a normal business boom and bust cycle decision to me. Even though the macro economy are not bad or just fine, that still can't justify the crazy hiring those companies did in the last 3 years, thus the lay-offs. On top of that, we have been in booming cycle since 2008, which is a long stretch, some adjustment is due.

Aperocky 4y ago

All of that looks good but the current rate is at 4.5% with expectation to continue to rise. That is the true underpinning of the economy right there. If everything else remained the same but rate is at 2% steady there is probably going to be a hiring crunch like we had in 2021.

robertlagrant 4y ago

> Business investment is growing at 3% a quarter (annualized) That's surprising given money is reportedly much less cheap now. Any citations?

gregors 4y ago

Disney is laying off 7k workers... >>> “While this is necessary to address the challenges we’re >>> facing today, I do not make this decision lightly,” said >>> CEO Bob Iger, " From the same article >>> ...the company released better than expected financial >>> results for the fourth quarter of 2022. Disney revenue in >>> the quarter rose 8% to $23.5 billion, edging past >>> estimates of $23.4 billion Truly they are facing major challenges /s https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/08/business/disney-earnings/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/08/business/disney-earnings/inde...

actually_a_dog 4y ago
Well, for Disney, making up for some of that early pandemic park revenue is certainly a challenge. Nobody messes with Mickey Mouse’s money!
- bogomipz 4y ago
  Disney has already raised prices at their parks twice this year though: https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/disney-raises-ticket-prices/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/disney-raises-ticket-pric...
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
Disney is laying off people because their movies keep bombing in the theaters. All they do is remakes and spinoffs of the famous old IPs they devoured, but that gravy train is coming to a stop. After a while people get tired of watching more half-baked Star Wars and Marvel sequels of bootleg quality. They're running out of franchises to milk, and making something new and original is not in their corporate culture.
- bentlegen 4y ago
  I’m guessing you didn’t read the article because Avatar made in over 2 billion dollars, exceeding even their expectations, becoming the 6th highest grossing film of all time. Or maybe it bombed, beats me.

tablespoon 4y ago

> No, it isn't, and it's embarrassing at this point to continue insisting this. Yeah, it feels the most charitable interpretation for the companies that say that is their CEO read doom-and-gloom predictions last fall, and hasn't opened a newspaper since. My employer just put out good numbers for 2022 and what look like positive growth predictions 2023 -- they're not laying anyone off, but they're cutting budgets and letting go of contractors (mostly very good ones), which will really hurt our ability to deliver and maybe even negatively impact stability. I've heard that meeting the budget is the priority, even if the actions needed to do that are illogical. It makes no sense.

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sethd 4y ago

Unprofitable tech companies are probably not doing too great in the face of rising interest rates.

grey-area 4y ago

The cost of money went up dramatically last year, and businesses which relied on very cheap (almost free) money for the last decade now need to make a profit or die. They are therefore panicking about the near future (and rightly so), this is what they mean by 'The current macroeconomic environment is tough'.

jayd16 4y ago

As layoffs echo through tech and belts are tightened, rightfully so or not, don't you think that would effect a SAAS like gitlab?

prepend 4y ago

> Inflation has been tame over the past six months. No, I don’t think so. 6.5% [0] is still an absurdly high rate compared to the past 30 years. It is nowhere near tame and may still fluctuate quite a bit. [0] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/inflation-cpi

jlmorton 4y ago
That is the trailing twelve months rate, and inflation was very high in the first six months of the trailing twelve months. Core inflation actually fell last month [1], and the producer price index has been very low the past several months [2] [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/core-pce-price-index-mom https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/core-pce-price-in... [2] https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/core-producer-prices-mom https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/core-producer-pri...
idontpost 4y ago
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sekai 4y ago
It's been trending down for the past 6 months, and markets are always future focused. Inflation is non-issue anymore
- prepend 4y ago
  Trending down, but still high and high for the foreseeable future. It’s not a non-issue to people trying to buy things.

mywittyname 4y ago

> If there are problems, they are Gitlab problems, not macroeconomic problems. Agreed. But pretty much every business is taking a hard look at their SaaS spend and are making cuts where possible.

mmmm2 4y ago
It seems it's better to be a SaaS provider than a SaaS user. I'm curious how the pendulum will swing as this all plays out.
- red-iron-pine 4y ago
  SaaS is like the offshoring crazy of the 90s and 2000s. Not as great as people seem to think but they're too invested to walk away.
  - coffeebeqn 4y ago
    I mean it’s just taking the old business model - pay me $500 for a piece of software - and stretching it to - Pay me $20/mo until The end of times. The bean counters love it because it looks like you have an infinite revenue stream

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

This feels like another semantic argument, this time over what "macroeconomic environment is tough" means. You are correct in everything you say in your first paragraph. That said, it's fair to say that "sharply rising interest rates" are also part of the macroeconomic environment. You can say that it was silly for all these tech companies and investors to think the free money spigot would go on for so long, but the key driver for all of the fall in tech company valuations and employment levels is rising interest rates. > If there are problems, they are Gitlab problems, not macroeconomic problems. Yet literally every big tech company I can think of has had similar levels of layoffs. If these were Gitlab-specific problems you wouldn't expect the slowdowns and layoffs to hit everyone.

pwinnski 4y ago
It isn't every big company. Apple hasn't, and they're the biggest of all. I think that is the point: it does not feel accurate to say that "macroeconomic conditions are tough" or that you expect slowdowns while recording record levels of revenue, and yet company after company after company is using these imaginary tough headwinds to justify laying off 6-8% of staff, often while paying dividends or issuing stock buy-backs. If it really is rising interest rates, then be honest. Say "due to rising interest rates, we are going to lay off 7% of staff... while buying back stock using our record profits."
- deburo 4y ago
  To me, complaining about the reasoning used by companies while not currently at the head of such a company feels pretty darn foolish. You just don't have the numbers at hands to qualify what they are saying. And I don't understand why you would care about layoffs from the tech industry (of all people) anyway, it's one of the best industry today and will probably for a while still (forever?). Maybe one of those engineers can help his local tech shop instead.
  - adamsmith143 4y ago
    Pretty bad argument when we in fact do have many of the numbers for public companies and those numbers show growing revenue and record profits...

patentatt 4y ago

The macroeconomic problems facing all of these corporations are that labor is feeling empowered, that's it. Between union actions, NLRB actions, wages rising, low unemployment, and the whole return to work debate; power has subtly, slightly shifted towards workers. And it scares the shit out of the capital class. In response, they're culling the herd and raising interest rates to discipline workers.

andsoitis 4y ago

if, as you say, the economy is super strong and employment opportunities are robust, then nobody should worry about the layoffs because hey, you’ll find a new gig easily!

hirako2000 4y ago
Many people have been at a place for a while, some over a decade. Massive layoffs means quick and picking individuals who rarely demonstrated poor performance. What it means to someone being laid off is far more than the challenges in finding another place. Plenty of fish and a rich dating scene out there. If you are dumped for dubious reason, would the argument that it isn't a problem at all to find someone else stand to not touch on the reasons? Plus given the power dynamic at play, don't you think the debate should go on with the reasons for what almost look like a centralised decision making power deciding when millions people should be let go despite no correlation with poor individual performance and even business performance in many cases?
- andsoitis 4y ago
  > millions people should be let go Where did you get the notion that millions of people have been laid off? Not that it is the canonical source of truth, but according layoffs.fyi: - 2023: 100k people laid off at 332 tech companies - 2022: 160k people laid off at 1044 tech companies source: https://layoffs.fyi https://layoffs.fyi

KoftaBob 4y ago

Well said. Almost every CEO that uses this line is essentially trying to avoid saying “we foolishly overhired during 2021 and are correcting for that”. Saying that would mean the CEO is admitting that they made a misguided decision.

ericd 4y ago

Does this look like a solid economic indicator to you? https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_pmi https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_pmi Zoom to max.

mythrwy 4y ago

Well if enough people keep being laid off, perhaps the macroeconomic environment does indeed become tough!

hoelle 4y ago

> Everywhere you look, the economic indicators are solid Everywhere? Have you been down a grocery aisle? The Ukraine war is likely to continue disrupting global food, fertilizer, energy, and raw material supply for years. Boomer retirement is crunching capital. Finding investment will likely only get harder for the next several years. China may be on the verge of a demographic, manufacturing, and political collapse. Stock your pantries.

Axien 4y ago
I read Peter Zeihan as well.

deleted 4y ago

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exmicrosoldier 4y ago

> The current macroeconomic environment is tough aka > Interest rates are high and I am worried about getting my next round of funding or meeting minimum payments on corporate debt. Because an overwhelming number of corporations take advantage of tax laws that make interest debt deductible, every interest rate hike leads to firing people and decreasing business investment, just to stay profit margin neutral. If you want to change this, it would really help to change the tax laws. https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/ending-tax-laws-subsidy-for-corporate-debt https://news.bloombergtax.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/en...

jldugger 4y ago
> Interest rates are high and I am worried about getting my next round of funding or meeting minimum payments on corporate debt. Curiously they IPOed in 2021 and report no debt. Perhaps they intended to borrow and got sidelined by rate hikes?

pokstad 4y ago

The use of the term “macroeconomic” has become so overused and cringe at this point to conceal the true complexity of what is going on.

kortex 4y ago

It's typical paper-thin plausible deniability of corporations justifying actions. - Oil supplies are tough so we are raising gas prices (we know we can get a few weeks/months of crazy profits and blame it on the energy crisis) - Supply chain issues are tough so we have to tighten out belt (excuse to not give out raises/bonuses) - The macroeconomic environment is tough, so we gotta lay off 7-10% (we have wanted to trim the fat for some time and now we have the perfect cover) Funny how it is always slow to go the other way (slow for gas prices to come down, wages to rise, and rosters are expanded).

red-iron-pine 4y ago
Something strong has to drive it. Hopefully that's economic pressures and not guillotines, but it may come to that.

jupp0r 4y ago

I also wonder where the widespread sentiment is coming from. Everybody had been expecting a recession on the basis of prediction markers like inverted yield curves and because it's historically due. That being said, no actual economic markers are actually pointing at one. Lots of companies are using this and layoffs at other companies as an excuse to cut down their work force, which they (uncommonly) hadn't done for years (which might mean never for young companies). My guess is also that this is more acceptable to share holders because it allows companies to put some money in the bank in case a recession actually arrives. Being transparent about this would be more honest than blaming it on "tough macroeconomic environment". At least severance packages look pretty neat and there's lots of jobs out there still for software people. Hiring is getting a little easier for smaller companies too.

mostertoaster 4y ago

The “good jobs report” is just smoke and mirrors to have something positive to say at the state of the union. Changing how you measure the number of jobs so it looks better is just par for the course for politicians. Using the old measure that 400k over the 100k expected is 20k less than expected.

lame-robot-hoax 4y ago
What? When did the Biden administration change the methodology behind measuring unemployment?
- mostertoaster 4y ago
  Maybe they didn’t. Still smoke and mirrors though, we “gained” 500k jobs, even though payrolls would show a decrease in 2.5m. But it was expected we would lose 3m seasonal jobs. So voila! It’s like when the government says we saved 50 billion in spending this year because we were planning on increasing spending by 150 billion, but only increased it by 100 billion instead. I’m not saying Biden is only one that does this, but the economy sucks, and those think the spin put out at the state union means otherwise, are like those who admire the naked emperors clothes.
  - jlmorton 4y ago
    > But it was expected we would lose 3m seasonal jobs. So voila! This is not smoke and mirrors, it's a seasonal adjustment. Without these seasonal adjustments, the jobs report would be completely and utterly useless. We always lose a massive number of jobs in January after the holidays, each and every year. Removing that seasonal variation from the jobs report is the only thing that produces a useful signal, and it's something we've been doing for your entire life, so there's no difference in the trend. The economy is quite good. Record low unemployment, near-record high job openings, very low long-term unemployed, low part-time for economic reasons, rising wages, modest inflation over the past six months, record-high corporate earnings. There are some areas that are weak, particularly manufacturing, but it's just not even remotely true that the economy sucks.

yowlingcat 4y ago

The world has just moved from a decade plus zero interest rate environment, combined with massive multitrillion dollar pandemic QE and accompanying hyperinflation, into a rising interest rate environment. The macroeconomic environment is more volatile now than any year in recent memory. It is objectively tough, and cherry picking random indicators which aren't core drivers of the economy doesn't prove terribly much. I think you would have to go back to the 70s and 80s to find similar precedent. If you look into the origin of the Volcker rule, you'll see exactly the kind of messiness the world might be in for.

radiator 4y ago

Wow, things really are so rosy on planet jlmorton. But meanwhile on planet earth, and especially the Western hemisphere, real inflation has been going through the roof -- to name only one of the myriad economic problems.

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pacija 4y ago

Terribly bloated corporations all around. We had such situation in socialist Yugoslavia in the 80s, just before it collapsed. Most people just "went to work" without doing anything useful or producing anything valuable while still getting fairly good money. Government kept printing money while increasing foreign debt to keep people content as opposed to let unprofitable companies close so that people get laid off but hopefully regroup into more profitable ones. It lasted for some time, but when it finally came to an end it was really ugly. I feel sorry for everyone that gets laid off, but perhaps that is better than the alternative.

jldugger 4y ago

> Everywhere you look, the economic indicators are solid. Sure, if you cherry pick the indicators. There's a pretty big one you're tiptoeing around: the Fed Funds Rate has gone from 0.25 in 2022 to 4.75. > I do not have insight into Gitlab's customers, or the current state of Gitlab's business. Well, that is to your detriment, both as a persuader and decision maker. Gitlab is publicly traded, and their fiscal year ended Jan 31, so you have a wealth of data you could be consulting to make the case. Yahoo Finance shows[1] they have zero debt, and margins at negative fifty percent -- for every dollar take in they lose a dollar fifty. It's not too hard to imagine the company has been losing money while money was cheap to grow marketshare versus GitHub, but now that rates are up it will be much harder to issue debt and pay it back. It's not to hard to paint Gitlab as a company in transition from loss leader to profitability by cutting costs and reducing long term investments as they become more expensive. And I think describing that as a response to macroenvironment conditions is appropriate. [1]: https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GTLB/key-statistics?p=GTLB https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GTLB/key-statistics?p=GTLB

ryanisnan 4y ago
Thanks for that. I'm curious if you have any resources you would recommend for improving one's literacy for corporate finance?
- jldugger 4y ago
  Investopedia? I don't have any advice here, but The Personal MBA[1] is a reading list, and their pick "How to Read a Financial Report: Wringing Vital Signs Out of the Numbers"[2] doesn't sound like the worst. But I haven't read it, so don't mistake this for a personal endorsement. [1]: https://personalmba.com/best-business-books/ https://personalmba.com/best-business-books/ [2]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1118735846/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/1118735846/
SantalBlush 4y ago
>Sure, if you cherry pick the indicators. There's a pretty big one you're tiptoeing around: the Fed Funds Rate has gone from 0.25 in 2022 to 4.75 Talk about cherry picking indicators—the federal funds rate isn't even an indicator. If you sincerely want to look at the data without cherry picking, please look at the top 10 US macro indicators [0]. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/020215/top-ten-us-economic-indicators.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/02021...

Patrol8394 4y ago

Current layoffs are not due to macroeconomics, but more a normalization of what happened in the last couple of yers. Most of the companies laying-off they all over hired. Why don't they just say so. https://www.statista.com/statistics/273951/growth-of-the-global-gross-domestic-product-gdp/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/273951/growth-of-the-glo...

vkou 4y ago

The economic indicators are solid, which is why JPowell is promising that the Fed will keep pushing on the money rope until they stop being solid. Why do you think the Fed just raised interest rates again?

mbesto 4y ago

> No, it isn't, and it's embarrassing at this point to continue insisting this. Your macro is not the macro that Gitlab is referring to. It's disingenuous to interpret it otherwise. All of these tech companies "overhired" (in hindsight) because they achieved unprecedented growth 2021~2022. If you're Gitlab - who sells to software development organizations - and the whole market has thrown hand over fist into the software development organizations, you have no choice but to chase that market. If that market (this is GitLab's macro) cools then you simply cut back. Y'all think there is something nefarious going on and I don't get it.

jlmorton 4y ago
Let's be clear about what the macroeconomic environment is, because it has a specific meaning. I'll quote from another definition here, so I'm not merely offering my own interpretation: > A macro environment refers to the set of conditions that exist in the economy as a whole, rather than in a particular sector or region. In general, the macro environment includes trends in the gross domestic product (GDP), inflation, employment, spending, and monetary and fiscal policy. The macro-environment is closely linked to the general business cycle as opposed to the performance of an individual business sector. [1] If Gitlab had simply said what you said, then I wouldn't have commented at all. Instead, Gitlab explicitly blamed economy-wide conditions for these layoffs, and that is what I take issue with. The economy is doing well. It's not all rosy, but in general, most indicators are fair-to-good, and trending better. (Manufacturing is one area that continues to trend worse). And frankly, my comment was not directed merely at Gitlab, but rather the slew of layoff notices we've seen that appear to be copied and pasted from each other. It's comical at this point, and the idea that the broad economy is in bad shape is simply not true, and not supported by the evidence. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/macro-environment.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/macro-environment.asp
- mbesto 4y ago
  > Instead, Gitlab explicitly blamed economy-wide conditions for these layoffs, and that is what I take issue with. The economy is doing well. And a macro-environment doesn't refer to just the economy. Per wikipedia: "The macro-environment refers to all forces that are part of the larger society and affect the micro-environment. It includes concepts such as demography, economy, natural forces, technology, politics, and culture."[0] Btw, if you really want to get pedantic, you specifically used macroeconomic and macro-environment interchangeably, which also have two specific but interrelated meanings. Gitlab used the word macroeconomic. Which sort of tells me all I need to know about how you and other people really understand Gitlab's message, which is exactly what I was referring to - the macro "view" is that people aren't spending like they used to on technology. Look at every publicly traded tech companies and you'll see that. Combine this with political factors (inflation at recent historic highs) and the macro "view" or whatever term you want to use seems dim compared to what it was in 2021/2022. > And frankly, my comment was not directed merely at Gitlab, but rather the slew of layoff notices we've seen that appear That was obvious, and so was mine. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_environment

wellanyway 4y ago

Its almost like senior management consists of people that mostly copy whatever everyone else in their ivy league fraternity is doing.

tempsy 4y ago

This is a pretty silly take. So all these tech companies who've laid people off are wrong and it's company specific issues? Don't think so.

dangwhy 4y ago

> Inflation has been tame over the past six months. > but not rapidly in a wage-inflation spiral. inflation doesn't feel Tame for my extended family.

riskneutral 4y ago

There is a great deal of uncertainty in the current economic environment. There was a pandemic, permanent shifts in the ways people live/work/travel, massive geopolitical events involving multiple, full spectrum global superpower conflicts, huge Ponzi schemes rising up and then collapsing in spectacular fashion (crypto), stagnating productivity (exacerbated by work from home), government bailouts followed by inflation hitting multi-decade highs and central banks mistaking raging inflation for something "transitory" and acting too late, and now skyrocketing interest rates, ongoing labor and supply chain issues, a looming recession and open questions about the ability of central banks to engineer a "soft landing" for the economy. Investment, M&A and corporate spending activity has come to a near standstill in the past 6 months across multiple industries, as a result of the current economic uncertainty. Business loan default rates are expected to rise, there have already been increasing numbers of bankruptcies (e.g. Serta Mattresses, near default Bed Bath and Beyond, health care providers, etc). Not to mention the cascading bankruptcies of crypto schemes. The ramifications of permanent WFH have yet to cascade through the Commercial Real Estate sector - there are huge amounts of vacant office capacity that have yet to be written down, but we can expect to see sales of obsolete and aging office buildings at deep discounts. High interest rates also have an impact on the Residential Real Estate sector, with housing pricing declining, mortgage rates increasing, etc. So 5-7% layoff is prudent for any large corporation in this economic environment, and layoffs / cost cuts have happened and will happen in many different industries, not just tech.

abawany 4y ago

I imagine the saying 'be the change you want to see in the world' pervades the c-suite pretty thoroughly. Thus, if 'the current macroeconomic environment is tough' is not true now, with all these layoffs it'll likely be true soon enough with all of these layoffs and the resulting cascading copycatting.

JibberMeTimbers 4y ago

Almost. The rate of inflation has been tamed. Inflation overall is high still comparatively

coffeebeqn 4y ago
I do wonder which goods will never come down from the newly anchored prices

setgree 4y ago

For a company like GitLab, the widespread perception that macro conditions are bad is equivalent to their actually being bad. The email says that clients are holding off on big software purchases, and that's GitLab's bread and butter. I see no reason to disbelieve Sid on this. In general this is one of those weird things about the economy, that perception/expectations dictate a lot of terms. It gives me the heebie jeebies sometimes. If enough people suddenly stopped believing that stocks represented real value, we'd be in a lot of trouble.

bogomipz 4y ago

Indeed. In fact 10 days ago the IMF upgraded their outlook for the global economy in 2023.[1] These layoffs and their accompanying statements from the CEO talking about "challenging macroeconomic environments" are really starting to feel like CEOs just parroting each other. [1] https://time.com/6251381/imf-global-economy-outlook-2023/ https://time.com/6251381/imf-global-economy-outlook-2023/

slowmovintarget 4y ago

Tech went bananas hiring during the pandemic, and are only suddenly discovering that this may have been a bad idea. You know who didn't? Apple. You know hasn't announced a hand-wringing, gosh-golly, tough times, BS announcement about layoffs? Apple. Got to hand it to Tim Cook, he seems to have stayed level-headed through the nonsense.